From the City to FO

[FANS]

As the years of study/work etc pay-off and I start to see the money finally come in, I'm also still pondering about whether to go for that flying career. ..

Who else has been in a similar position and decided to answer the "What if" conundrum or have stuck to their City career and earnt real money.

My passion's still there but I don't fancy (or know if I can survive on) those starting salaries of EZY & co.,

Equally, I'm not sure that flying is the career it once was, just see that thread on the rumours & news forum; it's a hell of a sacrifice if it isn't even that great and will probably continue to get worse.

[London Girl]

I am in exactly the same position as you - it has taken me 8 years to get where I am - I am now reaping the rewards and ....well, I'm not particularly happy with it! Yes, I am on good money, but work sh1t hours - often up to 75 a week and often weekends.

I recently completed my PPL and have decided that I want to do more. I will leave my current job at the end of September, to start on my ATPL (not sure modular or integrated yet).

Everyone tells me I am throwing away such a fantastic career - the money will be fantastic in five years time, but what good is that if you're not happy? My love of flying has taken over and it's all I think about - I want this too much to let anything stop me. By all means, listen to people on this site - there is a huge amount of experience and advice available, but if you really want to be a pilot that won't stop you pursuing your dream.

Good Luck!

[POL.777]

Hi FANS,

My passion's still there but I don't fancy (or know if I can survive on) those starting salaries of EZY & co.

I am in a position where I would LOVE to get those starting salaries you mention. As a pilot with little experience you are not entitled to negotiate any salaries - be happy if you don't have to pay for flying. So if you are not willing to work for free, and keep smiling while you are doing it, I wouldn't recommend you to throw a lot of money in an education like this one. But if you don't do it, you wont ever get to fly one of those big shinny jets :D and thats a shame.....

[FANS]

POL.777

The point is that I wouldn't be content flying for a living knowing that when it comes to home time, I'm effectively living on the breadline.

Equally, it is certainly no requisite:

"to work for free, and keep smiling while you are doing it."

That approach is simply unfeasible and a total insult to the value-added work performed by flight crew. However, if you are willing to work for free and be able to keep smiling (and eating/drinking), I'm sure most employers will love it.

[luckyPierre]

Unfortunately if you decide to become a pilot and finish training with 250 hours you will be joining an extreamly long line of others.

People are prepared to fly and not get paid very much for it because they are gaining hours and experience.

If you did a survey asking established pilots how they established a well paid flying job I think you would find a fair few will have gained hours either instructing for a pittance or doing other types of low paid flying just to get the experience.

Most get involved in the first place because they have always wanted to fly, not to make a fortune. Which you will not.

Suggest you stick to wearing your pinstripe suit.

[Number Cruncher]

If you don't like those EZY salaries, then think long and hard. Try earning an instructors or TP drivers salary, and its quite likely you’ll have to en-route to your 777!

I've been in the City 10 years. I am more than comfortable. I like my car. I like to not worry about mortgage payments. I like eating out. I like seeing my girlfriend/friends whenever I like. I like going on the lash and not having to think of the consequences TOO much. I like getting home for the footie. I like throwing the odd sickie. I like watching the News at 10. I like my work pals - some of them.

I don't like my job.

I have always had this burning desire. Yes, you'll be discouraged. It depends on what your personal motives are. I often have doubts when I’m sat at my PC thinking about the friend who’s been trying for an interview for 3 years with Jack ****e luck, but not enough to deter me. If it doesn't work out i'll go back to the City albeit £40k worst off. If you're that well off I am sure that its a well calculated gamble.

It’s all about you ultimately. About those salaries, I bet there are a lot of people out there who'd be thrilled with £40k+ per annum!

[FANS]

Number Cruncher,

£40k/yr is fine. Not so sure about the cadet wage of £~20k for several years however- I simply don't see how you could pay mortgages etc. on that kind of money and it's only until your seven year bond is up that you'll be able to do so.

Not everyone will appreciate the fact that I won't work for free hour building etc. and this may be seen as a lack of commitment. However, I know that even if you enjoy your job a tremendous amount, for me it would take a lot of the pleasure away if I was worrying where the next tenner was coming from.

Keep the opinions coming Ladies & Gents...

Has anyone made a packet in their thirties and then called it a day for flying?

[redsnail]

737 FO money is good, around £25-29K (SFO is higher).
Turboprop money ranges from £14K to £20K (FO, SFO is on increments) (£29K if on the Q400)
Be aware that more companies are now joining in the "pay for rating" deal. Expect to either borrow an additional £10-23K or find that kind of money in your bank account.

Early 30's it is just feasible to get your money back assuming all goes well and the industry doesn't have another hiccough. Late 30's/40's? I wouldn't bother.

I do know a guy who was in his early 30's a few years ago who did it all and is now in a shiny jet. He owned his house and had enough money stashed to pay for all his training (modular) and a type rating. This took him ~ 2 years go to woah and he had enough money to comfortably support himself and his wife. He got the timing just right. :)

[no sponsor]

I earn a silly wage for what I do, more than most captains in any airline. But would I give up my job today, and go training full-time? Not likely. Giving up my job was the original plan, but it's too risky, and I don't want to be struggling on no salary when I don't have to. Why don't you keep the job, and do your training in the spare time, and when necessary for the CPL/IR stuff, plan some unpaid leave. I gave my company 12 months notice for the unpaid leave. Carried over most of my holiday from last year to do the residential part of the ATPLs this year.

I'm half way through my ATPL, passed 8 papers, and got 6 to go. I will have completed the distance learning in around 10 months. 3 months for the CPL/IR, and will be a part-time FI thereafter until I get a break. (Did the PPL at weekends a few years ago).

Just work out the opportunity cost of giving up the job, and it doesn't make any sense.

[kpx1124]

I left behind a great job in the city a couple of years ago to concentrate on my flying career. I now work as a full-time instructor, partly to help build my hours, but mostly because I'd rather be flying than sitting behind a desk waiting for an FO job that might never come. The money is irrelevant because I actually enjoy my job and don't care that I no longer eat in fancy restaurants or drive a sports car.

If money is important to you this is definatley the wrong profession to become involved with. On top of that I rarely spend time with my wife or friends, as every weekend I have to work. The same will apply when progression to an airline occurs, and more importantly we will probably have to relocate to wherever that future employer has opportunities.

Flying is never going to be a Monday to Friday, 9 to 5 job, but fortunantley I have a partner that supports my career choice and would rather see me happy, doing something I really enjoy.

I guess I'm just trying to say that life's too short not to enjoy yourself. If you want to fly then go for it and good luck to you... just remember, that FO job might be a long time coming so be prepared to eat at Beefeater and not Bibendum.

[Mosspigs]

Screw flying, let’s go and work with / for no sponsor!

I am currently fully employed and taking the ATPL modular course with BGS - thanks again no sponsor for the advice.

I digest, by reading your post a couple of times, that perhaps you're better off where you are. The reasons I say this are as follows:

There are younger and keener people who will work for very little / nothing to get on the ladder. Call it an apprenticeship if you will. I'll give up a well paid job for free flying for a limited period.

I reckon you'll need at least £60 - £70k to get your licence and fund your unemployment. There are finance packages that will allow you to pay back this money when you are earning a descent wedge - ala student loans.

How do you know the passion is still there? Not a factitious question but one asked from someone who does fly (military) for a living.

My advice is stay put for now and observe the market and the terms and conditions etc. Whilst observing, take up the modular ground school package (BGS is excellent). Study at your own pace in your own time with limited capitol outlay. Get a PPL, commit aviation when you can and combine the two in a few years down the line with a cool little instructing job at a small flying school.

Then with the money you have saved, buy your own incredibly expensive executive jet and live life like a playboy.

Good luck with the decision making :ok:

[FANS]

It's a tough call, at the moment I'm on the age limit for most of the sponsorships.

It would seem that doing this would effectively write-off the past few years though, and then there's the house and a very high maintenance lady...

Still it certainly won't come if I just sit away; I just need to be careful that this is the job it's cracked upto be. Would the hastle of trying to get in busy airports and making fast turn-arounds etc. detract from those sunrises, the thrill of it all etc.?

[kpx1124]

The solution is easy FANS... send the high maintainence lady out to work and let her support you! :ok: It worked a treat for me...

Seriously though, the modular route is probably your best bet. I'd agree that BGS are fantastic for the distance learning course and doing things this way will allow you to keep earning 'good' money before you commit to a life in aviation...

[tonker]

I left a decent job south of London and am now instructing for £15 per hour. I live in a crappy B&B mon to fri and spend most of my days at 3-4000 feet dodging the clouds and having a great laugh teaching nice people. You can't put a price on that sort of work, it's priceless.

You only live once and your a long time dead. Stick the City, and you too could start LIVING, as opposed to chasing some non existant marketing mans idea of how to make it.

I've driven down to my home tonight in my crappy car content in the knowledge i've LIVED another week.

If your worried about what salary you think you could earn on leaving flight school then in my experience it really isn't for you.

[Straightandlevel80kt]

London Girl

I'd advise you to stay in your job and go modular. You can have the best of both worlds then, rather than a mountain of debt and no job.

Best of luck!

[no sponsor]

PPrune never ceases to amaze and frustrate me...you offer reasonable advice and someone always chews you out...

This isn't about commitment; it’s about being realistic; certainly for those with mortgages, families and other financial commitments. I take my hat off to the people here who are making huge commitments, but it doesn't make sense for me to do that, nor others. It’s about personal circumstances, not commitments. But more importantly, you don't have to give up everything if you can hack doing distance learning for the training, if you wish.

So, keep the job, keep saving, and when you are ready to take that £10 per hour instructing job, then you can for a couple of years.

Doing research on the life and expectations of the job are vital, but don't take one thread on R&N as the be all and end all. The job isn't what it was in the 1970's, and pay and terms will decrease in relative terms compared to your chums in the city - you'll never make the £120K per year while doing 2 sectors to Singapore a month. My advice is to try and speak to current line pilots, from a variety of airlines. They will mostly say that they like what they do and wouldn't change it for anything; some hate the companies they are in, but love the job, others are just pleased they are not doing what they used to do before they were qualified.

In the end it will come down to that whole money / life / enjoyment thing, and you've got to ask yourself what will matter most. :ok:

[wheelbarrow]

I was a market maker on the London Stock Exchange for 5 years in the 90's.

I loved and hated my job. I left in 1999, and trained at OATS. I was 25.

I did OK at OATS and got a place on the CTC/ATP scheme. I joined jmc straight on the 757. I had an 18 month "career break" at DHL Air, and returned recently to Thomas Cook Airlines UK to fly an A320.

I am lucky, I know that. I got a big break early on and am grateful for it. I am also lucky to be in a final salary pension scheme etc etc.

However, the job has changed and is changing more still. The loco's have changed it FOREVER combined with 9/11. And it is not for the better. See above comment about pension etc... they are gone forever too now generally.

My advice is : If you LOVE flying, then do it. If it is a whim, don't bother.

I imagine I am in a lucky minority, however not alone in my luck, so if you work hard and commit to your studies then you may get lucky too.

All the best.

[omoko joe]

I flew with an FO recently who came from the city. He loves flying but is thinking of going back to the city or else contracting and doing both. The problem with flying is that some people will work for nothing and do virtually anything to get there. (a statement, not a criticism). It's all well and good saying you won't work for less than £xx but if you're surrounded by guys who will then you've got problems.
I love flying but if I had to do it all again, I probably wouldn't bother..the industry T's and C's are on a downward slope to a bottomless pit. I'd still have a PPL and my own plane though!;)

[Maximum]

I've posted on this subject many times before, as have others, so apologies for repeating myself.

1.)If I can give you the jaundiced view of the airline pilot........

......if the money is a worry........don't do it.

2.)If you can't think about anything but flying, then maybe consider it.........but refer back to item 1.)

The problem you face is knowing if you're totally committed to flying as a career, or if thinking about it is just a convenient distraction from boring old work.

And the trouble is, yes, a trial lesson makes it seem like just the best thing in the world. Who wouldn't be hooked at this stage? Lets face it, only someone whe totally hates flying............

And as for the thought of flying a shiny new jet? Well again, if you're the normal type of person into cars etc, to make a living flying a jet must seem like one of the most exciting things you could do.............maybe apart from being a racing driver........

....but you can't tell they're shiny from inside.

And flying instructing? Well of course, when it's all new it seems wonderful. And really, it's much more fun in many ways than airline flying. BUT - the novelty wears off, you increasingly don't get to touch the controls yourself as you move up the instructional ladder to IR etc, and the pay stinks. Living the dream can become very sour indeed when you don't have any money.

As you know, we all get used to things very quickly - so the excitement will wear off - it's a job after all. And the strains on family life are HUGE. Airlines work you very very hard and give you little respect. The frequency of flights, especially in the short haul sector, starts to make the job a real strain as you get older. Think about anything you like doing - at what point would it become a pain rather than a pleasure?

There is also little career progression in real terms, especially if you're not talking about a military career. Get to airline RHS, do job for years, swop to LHS if everything works out. Do same stuff for rest of working life. Now earning some money (not great but ok), how can you leave or admit to yourself job isn't what you thought it would be? You're locked into mortgage, kids etc, just like everyone else. But you're no longer qualified to do anything else, and not getting any younger.

Yes, this is a one-sided view. No, it's not my own life story, but based on some of my own experiences as a pilot and observations of others. But it is very much the reality for a sizeable majority of pilots in the UK.

All the above simply intended to help you with your decision making. Good luck.:)