Waddington Airshow

[The Swinging Monkey]

Just wanted to offer my congratulations and thanks to Paul Byram and Malcolm Gardner (and everyone else) who organised the Waddington Airshow over the past weekend.
What a great two days it was, just outstanding.
Shame about the Wx at the end of each day, but what the hell.
If anyone from RIAT/Fairford is reading this post, might I suggest that you speak to these two chaps? They will be able to tell you how to really organise an airshow!
No problems getting in
No problems getting out
Not being ripped off with entrance prices
Not being ripped off by traders
Oh, and managing to give away a $hit load of dosh to charity at the same time!
How come Waddo can do it, and RIAT can't.........?
let me think now, ah yes, I know, Waddo dosn't have to stand the cost of all those hangers-on and VIP parties etc. do they?

Anyway, Paul, Malcolm and all at Waddo - it was, yet again, just another first class show, and for myself and probably the majority of the public, it's bny far the best airshow in Europe.
Well done!

Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey

[AlanM]

How many people does Waddo attract compared to RIAT?

[Beeayeate]

Got to agree with Mr S Monkey, Waddington is consistently a good show, in the manner of RAF station shows of days gone by. Difference between Waddo and RIAT? Waddington is an air display with a fun fair - RIAT is a circus with an air display.

Would also like to offer my congrats to Paul Byram and his team for a well organised event. :ok:

Got to mention the Typhoon though. After a couple of quick circuits, albeit very agile, it disappeared into the clouds on the Sat. Some time later it did a fast(ish) fly-by down the runway and disappeared again. Nearly everybody in our association's enclosure concluded that this was because it was all the fuel the country could afford for it. :E

[The Swinging Monkey]

AlanM,

Yes, I've no doubt that RIAT gets more punters than Waddo.
Can you imagine how many of them go home thoroughly sick, fed up and pi$$ed off at being ripped off by the RIAT circus eh??

I'll bet that those who went to Waddo went home wet, but feeling pleased that they have had a damned good day out, with exceptional value for money, something you DO NOT get at RIAT.

Rant over, well done Waddo
Kind regards
The swinging Monkey

[stuk]

3 points.
What was that about "no problem getting out"- You obviously did not try to leave at 1715 to eventually arrive in Lincoln at 1900.
Secondly as to the numbers attending RIAT and Waddo, well they both contribute to the RAF Benevolent fund but as Waddo does not have the "Overheads" i.e. hosting overpaid aircrew in hotels and business VIPS then the RAF Fund receives a lot more from Waddo than it does from RIAT. Of course they don't have to pay staff or rely on volunteers at Waddo as they have loads of willing helpers in blue suits.
Finally the reason for the short uninspiring display from the Eurofighter was that it was flown by RAF and not by BAES Test Piolts who can really throw it around in their display.
Overall though a well organised and very enjoyable day.

[Beeayeate]

You obviously did not try to leave at 1715 to eventually arrive in Lincoln at 1900.

Well yes I did actually. Exited the eastern gate onto the A15 at 17:15(ish) with no problems at all, me and three other cars. Depends on your exit point I guess. By 19:00 was passing Nottingham (that A46 going past Syerston gets worse and worse).

Thanks for the info on the Typhoon jockeys though. Didn't think its display was "uninspiring" at all, in fact I thought it was extremely agile (as I said), just would have liked to see more of it. Good "Lightning" emulation on its take off run, pity it was so cloudy on the Sat.

[BLW Skylark 4]

Just to add to 'TSM's comments, congratulations to all concerned on a great day out (Sunday).

HOWEVER on a couple of other points:-

Typhoon

Sorry but this was about the biggest non event of a display I've ever seen, it was outflown by the Belgian (?) F16 - "Tiger 31" and the Grob 115. STUK's comments shed some light on this but the reaction of Joe Public around me was not impressed.

Access

Whether it was the influence of the deluge late on Sunday afternoon but anyone who says there were no delays getting out is kidding themself. No problem to me as I like wandering around the static getting clear photos whilst everyone else queues, but when I left at 19.30 there were still big queues getting off base and on the A15. Methinks that traffic delays are an inevitable factor of any event attended by a large number of people.

Waddo v RIAT

As other posters have said, these are totally different shows. As one of RIAT's volunteers I'm looking forward to nine days of bloody hard work (having taken leave to be there) but I dont think its fair to copmpare the two events. Waddo has the ability to call upon all the unpaid resources (albeit not unlimited these days!) of the RAF and the base personnel, RIAT is reliant upon volunteers and corporate spending. I very much hope that there are less examples of the corporate excesses in evidence this year at RIAT but it shouldnt be forgotten that Waddo has these too. What about the VIP vehicle route where everybody has to stop crossing whenever a VIP vehicle comes into view lest they should be momentarily delayed or detained. Similarly, wasnt the final GR4 delayed at the hold yesterday whilst a 32 Sqn 125 was parked on the runway waiting for the VIPs to walk from the hospitality tent to the aircraft. Still, give them their dues, they did walk the 400' or thereabouts - I was expecting a car!!

Final positive words though must go the Chinook - what an unbelievable display guys, hats off to all concerned.

Cant wait for next year (even with RIAT & FI2004 on the horizon) and if anyone wants copies of any of my photos from yesterday, drop me a line. I was on the flightline all of yesterday PM so may have pics if you were displaying anything.

Well done!

Paul.

[bay17-20]

Skylark

Please do not feel you have to defend RIAT to the likes of the Hanging Ape person, he obviously has no idea what he is talking about.

Waddington is a good show and so is RIAT, both contribute to charity.

Mr Ape clearly does not know how VIP's and associated events are funded (Corporate, not RIAT) that ticket sales are up this year ( not upset that many punters then) and that the two shows are very different in size and content.

Maybe RIAT has said no to him in the past, who knows? But lets thank him for the adverse publicity he has give to a RAFBF charitable event 3 weeks before it happens (idiot!).

[The Swinging Monkey]

Stuk Old Boy,

No, I didn't leave at that time so I can't comment on your particular delays but I did leave at about 6.15 ish, and got out with no hold-ups at all. Just out of interest, how long does it normally take you to get out of RIAT??

Your comments about some aspects are pretty much way off the mark:

"well they both contribute to the RAF Benevolent fund but as Waddo does not have the "Overheads" i.e. hosting overpaid aircrew in hotels and business VIPS then the RAF Fund receives a lot more from Waddo than it does from RIAT"

Now come on, you can't have it both ways. Yes I concede that RIAT DO have more overheads, but as AlanM says, the numbers going to the RIAT (3 Day) airshow are:
a) considerably more, and
b)charged infinately more money to get in.
(The base is probably 2-3 times the size of Waddo!)

Also take into account the thousands of commercial stalls at RIAT, all paying phenominal prices (my friend owns Terrane Ltd and for his 10 metre pitch this year, RIAT want something like £2000. Needless to say he is NOT going to attend this year (see, they even rip off traders)

And as for your comment: "Of course they don't have to pay staff or rely on volunteers at Waddo as they have loads of willing helpers in blue suits"

Gosh, you really have let the cat out of the bag there........... RIAT claims that everyone at their show are volunteers, are you now saying that they are not, and hence their lack of money for donation?? Pray tell us more....
Speak up Stuk old boy, myself and many others will be interested to know what you mean about RIAT having to pay for all these 'volunteer' staff.

And as for hosting 'overpaid aircrew' Oh dear, patently are not a flyer (so why are you on this forum??)

I can assure you that having attended RIAT several times as one of your 'overpaid aircrew' things are very much different to what you percieve them to be. Accomodated in hotels? you must be having a laugh. Most aircrew are accomodated miles from the base, in a grotty $hithole in and around Swindon, and endure a nice 3, 4 and even 5 hour bus journey back to and from there 'hotel' to the base.

Get your facts right Stuk. Talk to the aircrew first, then you won't look quite as silly as you do now.

Anyway, this is all detracting from my praise for Paul and his team. Well done once again.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[smartman]

Worry not Stuk, the hanging ape has been swinging from his chip for many a day - on this, and various other topics. Typical barrack-room lawyer chappie. See you for a jar or two at RIAT SM?

[AlanM]

TSM

Firstly, congrats to all involved with Waddo. I never made it this year, but others have said it went well.

Having worked as an Organising Committee Member for 6 years, I can tell you that most are volunteers like myself. As this is a huge organisation, they need full time employees and a large residence. Something unavoidable considering the RAFBFE other interests.

Now - your bitching about RIAT can be split into a number of categories.

1. The "freeloading" - Now this was getting out of hand I must admit. Teams were getting bigger and bigger - but this has been acknowledged and curtailed.

2. VIP's - Who were guests of the main sponsors of aircrew used facilities such as the Flight Centre, Sunday Night Party, Aircrew Enclosure on the flight line. Brings in wads of dosh.

3. Ingress/Egress - Simple fact of lots of people wanting to leave/arrive at the same time from an airfield with small country roads surrounding it! They are trying to help the mass exodus, by setting a concert at the end to help stem the flow.

4. Ticket prices - Yes they are pricey at RIAT. But you get what you pay for and from what I am told you get more for your money at RIAT!

The thing that REALLY annoys me is the fact that both THE RAFBFE and THE WADDINGTON AIR SHOW are there to raise funds for the RAFBF. Why oh why does the British way of rubbishing everything get in the way? Even if RIAT only raised £100 it is still profit for the fund.

Also - don't forget that RIAT is widely acknowledged as being merely the showpiece for the RAFBFE and they make much more money throughout the year on its other ventures.

So well done Waddo - and everyone involved. Quite why it has become a bun fight I do not know! :)

Cheers

Alan

[Feneris]

Typhoon: was disapointing it didn't perform any aero's, but apparantly that was due to the pilot not being cleared to perform them. A BAES pilot could have done a full display, but 'they' wanted a crab behind the controls, proves they can fly them or something.

[The Fin]

Gentlemen,

I thought we had cleared up the Typhoon 'display' thing after Cosford. The RAF has expressly stated that there will be no Typhoon display this year as the priorities lie elsewhere. Instead, initially only a flypast was authorised and after much hard work and bargaining, this was expanded to the 'agile circuits' that have been shown. It is not a case of pilot ability, BAES vs RAF or anything else, simply one of policy. This 'agile circuit' thing is what you will see for the rest of the season, as I say again, there is no Typhoon display pilot (17(R) Sqn are working very hard on other things). It's sad to see quite so much complaining when certain people have worked extremely hard to get the aircraft out on public show and demonstrate a taster of it's performance. I'm sure next year will feature a full up airshow display, just like any other jet.

[Nat O'Thee]

Ok so having been a reader of these forums for a number of years, this is the subject that has managed to stir me into a response. Not an expert in the subject but having been attending airshows since 1984 (Middle Wallop), been a serving member of the RAF for the same 20 years and been part of the organisation responsible for putting a number of large and small shows together, I feel qualified to enter the hornets nest and pass comment.

Some very interesting views on the Waddington event over the weekend, just wanted to add a couple of points and ask a couple of questions?

No traffic problems, guess that person was not trying to drive up the A15 from Cranwell at approx 10.30 Sun morning, took over an hour to get through the gate, to me that qualifies as a traffic problem. Listening to the "Airshow" radio and I gather that it wasnt only the A15 with problems. "Lincoln gridlocked" was a quote from the radio.

Now it is a fact that RAF Airfields were not constructed for easy access of circa 20,000 cars but Waddington is a lot better situated than Fairford, A15 major A road and A46 major dual carrigeway within 10 mins, so it should be easier to get in and out! But it wasnt.

Airshow radio was at best a bit of a joke, very little traffic information "Midland Radar mid 80's comes to mind", lots of very sad text messages and far too many in jokes about the E-3 fleet and the banter between 8 and 23. Come on guys this goes out to a lot of people and is the voice of the Royal Air Force?

Static aircraft content was of limited interest. Yes I know in these days of the drawdown and cutbacks it is hard, but do we really need a line up of old JP's as a reminder of how it used to be. Regular knock of RIAT is too many F-16's and Tornado's, well seems that the trend has moved North, but the aircraft have shrunk and been painted red and white.

A previous post mentions "paid" RIAT volunteers, Swinging Monkey takes this as getting cash in the pocket. I would take it as the cost of overhead for the volunteer. A team of around 200 sells Programmes at RIAT, normally from a local charity. They have a donation made to their charity and are fed and watered through the weekend. This costs money! Fortunately there is still enough slack in the system to allow the studes from Sleaford Tech to come up to Waddington and better themselves by meeting the public and selling programes at the same time. This is just one example of the overheads involved in Gloucestershire that are not seen in Lincolnshire.

Yes both products give to the RAFBF, and both do it well. Each are not perfect - but they are pretty close for the market they are supplying. Swinging Monkey I am sure that you see everything at RIAT as bad and everthing elsewhere as great, I guess that you will think the forthcoming Farnborough show will be the best thing since hi-leg boots replaced DMS?

I will close on the thought " You dont have a smart car to race to the South of France for a long weekend, and you dont use an SL55 AMG to commute to your office in the city and park it on a meter all day". Different things suit different roles. Waddington was not a good place to host corporate hospitality, but it was a great Sunday market with an aviation theme. RIAT however is not the best place to buy a new kitchen floor mop, it is a great place to take avaiation minded businessman that want a different hospitality package from Henley, Wimbledon and the football.

Just my thoughts, on a subject that I have probably been a lot closer to than most.

[Human Factor]

Corporate hospitality? Used to sit on my folks garage roof in Branston. No 2 hour drive home and dinner on the table, nothing comes close. Still remember the Vulcan scrambles when I was a brat...

[BLW Skylark 4]

Gentlemen,

Just to clarify my comments earlier regarding the Typhoon, this was in no way intended as a criticism of the crew or the efforts expended in getting the Tiffie (can we call it that yet?) in the air in front of the public this year.

Dont get me wrong, it was great to see it and I would much rather see it and photograph it doing the 'agile circuits' than not at all, it was just that with all the negative press it has had lately, it seems a missed opportuity by BAE and the powers that be to convince 'Mr & Mrs 2.5 Children' that their taxes have been well spent. Whilst I was fully encloaked in my 'spotters anorak' watching the display, those around me weren't and judging by the mutterings, they weren't convinced it was money well spent.

Having said that though, I haven't heard so many car alarms go off after a departure since the heady days of the Vulcan and the FGR2 - maybe we have a worthy sucessor in the wings!

Keep up the good work!

Paul.

p.s if anyone wants photographic evidence of the Blue Eagles new cut back cost effective display for 2005 - private message me!

[BEagle]

Surely the car alarm record of all time must be held by the deafening Yak 141 Freestyle at Farnborough a few years ago?

Even made our Vickers SuperFunBus flypast sound quiet!

I guess the proof of the RIAT pudding will be seen later this year.....??

[Gainesy]

Think the Blackjack at Ramenskoy might have beat it BEags; that is, if the Sov punters had had any cars...

[BEagle]

They probably did - but the car park became a sea of cardboard fragments and oily lawnmower engines as a few hundred Trabis disintegrated courtesy of Mr Tupolev's 160th design in full a/b!

[wub]

When the Freestyle displayed at Farnborough, the show organisers received calls from neighbouring counties asking what the noise was!

The noisiest I can recall was the Backfire at Farnborough, which seemed to be redistributing my internal organs.

[AlanM]

That Typhoon is sooo noisy!

I made a big mistake of taking the ATC vehicle to the runway edge for its display at Farnboro in 2002. 50m from a rotating one made me put the camera down!!

[buoy15]

Qh!! Waddo and RIAT - all that lovely tucker in the hospitality tents whilst watching the display from a prime spot with Joe Public looking on - Halcyon days - Military jet noise, the sound of freedom! Roll on next year.

[Av18tor]

Well I think the record for the most car alarms set off has to go to the.... Lightning!!

Sunday evening, two lightnings on a 'fast taxi' (is that a taxi?) along the runway at Bruntingthorpe, (the nearest of the two was the only one on reheat and that was only on the top engine), What an outstanding noise, smell and well the feeling of power and nostalgia in one package!

The comment someone made 'Jet noise, the sound of freedom' they weren't wrong!

I don't think there was a single car there with out the alarm sounding along with all of the proving grounds vehicles! Even my MG! (and it doesn't even have an alarm!)

:E :E

[Gingerbread Man]

A good way to beat the traffic at Waddo, as I discovered, is to wait until people drive towards the taxiways to queue up for the gates. Then you drive through the empty spaces across the grass and go to the furthest exit from the tower. Saved us buckets of time - but keep it under your hat, eh? ;)

A rather smug Ginge :cool:

[Divergent Phugoid!]

Didnt have a problem geting out of Waddo either and was at home 35 miles away in about an hour!

Only problem was caused by the snowdrops trying to do traffic control and causing a problem by waving their arms at the cars leaving and creating a problem which was non existant to start with. Never mind only added about 15 mins to the journey!

(And there was airshow radio to listen to on the way out! :yuk: :yuk: )

A friend of mine was a voulanteer at RIAT at both Cottesmore and Fairford for the past few years, until last year when he applied for the usual application form, they didnt send one, when called in to see if he could collect one, was told to write in, (which he did there and then handed the letter to a member of staff), again only to be ignored. Left several messages for staff to contact him but this didnt happen, even though it was explained that he needed to let his employer know a min of 2 months in advance that he would require leave . Despite many calls and letters he was completely ignored. What a wonderful way to treat some one who used their own vehicle for RIAT's benefit, (he refused to claim milage or use the 'free' petrol provided, would work 14 hrs most days for 9 days) would bend over backwards to be at the beck and call of the organisers and this was the way they treated him.

Can't post here what he thought of them. Needless to say he didn't offer his assistance this year!

RIAT have lost and will keep losing volunteers if they don't have the courtesy to say thanks for the offer of assistance but we are fully staffed this year or what ever the reason they couldnt use this guy was. They will then have to employ people to fill the volunteers posts at a cost and the obvious result will be less to charity.

Waddo beats RIAT completely in my mind anyhow, brilliant display, reasonable entry costs, not overly commercialised, good access and egress and its not 4.5 hours from home either!


:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Grob Driver]

Bay et al and all those that continue to defend RIAT's p1ss poor performance on donations... Just how much was given at the end of last years show?... Er they gave JACK!... Absolutly nothing. RIAT is a fantastic display... never seen another show like it, but don’t sit there telling me that they do a wonderful job for the RAFBFE... Coz they dammed well don’t!

[dragline1]

waddington is normally a very good show but weather on sat was a factor for a poor display , and as for the riat well its just to big and there for attracts the rip off sharks why it could not be left at raf cottesmore as a smaller show with the A1 road for moving traffic fast away from the base is beyond me . a few less tornado s and herks wont be missed by anyone so bring it back to the middle of the country so every one as fair access to the show , as fairford is and always been a nightmare to get off after the show

[BEagle]

One point made by a corporate host was that Cottesmore was too far from London for many of their guests, plus road access (for 'VIP's) was very poor - everyone had to go through the same narrow roads to get to the entrance.

Glad to hear that Paul is still doing an excellent job at Waddo!

The RIAT/SBAC debate is interesting. With more restrictions on airspace near F'boro than Fairford, it is hardly surprising that RIAT puts on a bigger display - whereas there's hardly anything flying at F'boro these days. But the trade pavilions are very extensive at F'boro, whereas at RIAT it's the usual airshow stuff in the main.

And it's all getting rather expensive nowadays!

[Av18tor]

Beags,

I have worked at Cottesmore and Faiford and thought that the flow of the traffic was better out of Cottesmore.

As for the Corporate hosts feeling that Cottesmore was too far from London, the actual difference from Hyde Park is, its 8 miles further to Cottesmore, would not have thought that a further 8 miles would even be noticed, it's not like its 45 miles or another hours drive.

If the Vip access by road was considered a problem, why couldnt they allow the VIP's to travel by road to Wittering, park there then have a Helecopter transfer to Cottesmore! Much more style and VIP like arrival!

Would take minutes and maybe, if the RAF wanted to supply the chopper, they could make a few extra beans on the side to keep the counters happy! And no doubt a nice bit of publicity to!

But have to agree, Waddo does seem to be the best value, very well organised and run and its only 45 mins home!

[BEagle]

Certainly traffic flow out of Cottesmore was fairly easy - but getting there wasn't!

Re. VIPs in helicopter transfers from Wittering - I would have loved to have seen Barsteward Bill being strapped into the back of a Chinny!

[comedyjock]

Definition of flying display?

Series of linked manouevres in front of the public or something like that.

Typhoon not a display? standby for the fun police to get involved.

[bad livin']

Yes yes yes. But were the owl sanctuary girls from last year in evidence?? Fond memoriiiiiiieeesss.............