Fitness Test - Fail and you're out!

[JessTheDog]

Apparently there is a new P1 directive that effectively means that 4 fails (after appropriate remedial and without medical reason) and your'e out on an administrative discharge.

Excellent news for clearing out those that want to dodge the fitness requirement and are generally lazy and often a burden in other ways.

One nagging concern is the slight possibility that this may be driven by the need to reduce numbers and that a few with genuine medical problems may find themselves out on their ear. Some may say "it'll never happen..." but look at the MCP issue the Army have had and remember that we work for the caring MOD!

[Trumpet_trousers]

....Used wisely, it would appear to be an excellent way to reduce your PVR waiting time to your advantage.......

[Pontius Navigator]

good theory, crap practice.

We are so short in some trades that it would be cutting off nose to spite face. If we made exceptions because of need just watch the courts!

No way we could give out continuance on the one hand and dismiss with the other.

[polyglory]

A good way to reduce the surplus of Airships:E

[The Gorilla]

Poly

Er No!!

Same rules as CCS, i.e. no one over the rank of Wg Cdr does a compulsory fitness test!!

:ok:

[CatpainCaveman]

Yes Gorilla. that's correct.

But surely there's a requirement for them to be physically capable and operationally competent of doing their job and deploying where necessary.

If they can't meet the standard, they should be out too. No questions. Or is this like the recent first class travel scandal and their airships have a valid reason for not bothering to meet the requirements that the rest of us must?

With the way things are going towards an expeditionary air force, with operators going away and contractors hiding at home, if the senior officers can't meet the deployment standards they should be put on probabtion and then if there is still no improvement discharged for failing to meet the standards required to perform their job. For God's sake, it ain't difficult, but watch em waddle up and down the gym faced with 'retiring' on a lower pension or not getting that next stripe!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Are you stating that no one above the rank of Wg Cdr or the equvalent does a fitness test or CCS etc:rolleyes: Surely feckin not:rolleyes: a two tier system:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Pass-A-Frozo]

But surely there's a requirement for them to be physically capable and operationally competent of doing their job and deploying where necessary.

Well if a fitness test is supposed to assess whether you can do the job, why is the standard different for women or old pricks. Should be the same standard for the same job.. Oh that's right, the fitness test isn't based on fitness required for the job.. just remembered.. :hmm:

Good way to get out of Return of Service Obligation though :E

[BEagle]

Funny thing was, when they changed to using a cycle ergonometer for those who were just doing that running across the gym thing, the failure rates went up. Which only went to show that the 'old pricks' were perhaps subject to a more stringent assessment than the young tigers....

Did my last one at the age of 52 before retiring - piece of pi$$. But never really saw the point of it - I don't recall a whole bunch of folk dropping dead on the job in the '70s and '80s.....

Since when were people above the rank of Wg Cdr exempt from RAFFT or CCS? That'd be hugely divisive....

[MATZ]

Any chance of being given a ref for this P1 directive. I know a few people it would scare!!

MATZ :D

[4fitter]

Not seen the RAF P1 directive, however, not sure about the waivers for wg cdrs and above. It may be age related but I am current in both CCS (A2 and 9mm) and fitness test. Moreover, I am still allowed to make reference to an officer's attitude towards fitness if it is not positive ! I know that wg cdrs and above still deploy, are exposed to the same dangers (relatively speaking) and require good personal admin. It is not just officers though and I won't bore you about the incident where the WO self administered a combopen because his chest pain, sweating and dimming of vision were down to the fact that he was a pie merchant who wasn't fit enough to make the shelter without puffing !

As an aside, from 2005 failure to pass the RN walking test is a black mark and block to better things.

[The Swinging Monkey]

As someone who was the wrong side of the scales before I left the mob, I would frankly question the real reasoning behind this.
There will always be those 'racing snakes' who claim that we should all be mega fit and able to deploy blah. That may well be true, but squadrons 'lose' more people NOT because they are overweight or supposedly 'unfit' but because they have injured themselves 'jock-strapping' around the world, day-in, day-out.

I have been grateful for my extra layer of insulation as a SAR crewman, and I firmly believe that if you are fit enough to do your job, then that should be enough.

We do not yomp for miles, like the pongo world does, and therefore that argumant dosn't hold true.

Maybe it's time that the aircrew got together and flew everyone on a Nimrod low level trip (very low level!). All those that chuck-up can have remedial training, and if they barf again, then out you go!

Likewise, if it is really that important, then lets get all those scribblies and the likes out on a real survival exercise, instead of pi$$ing about and playing at it like they do!!

Rant over, time for another Pie!!

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, pass me another glass of that lo fat Grouse stuff!!'

[Tonkenna]

Read a copy of the Stn Cdr's brief here at Bzn and that is pretty much what it said, though there is talk of a tougher test as well.

The current test is rubbish, particularly in its inflexibility. The way that sit ups are done are bl**dy dangerous so I refuse to do them as I have a very dodgy lower back. I have been told there is no other exercise that can be used for that part of the test..... what utter rubbish. The fact that I am in the gym 3 time a week at least and do other sport is irrelevent as far as my "fitness" is concerned though. Yet, we have chaps here who are horribly over weight, have no idea what a gym is and nothing is done.

The whole system is cr@p and always has been.

Tonks:mad:

[Helm]

As at least one major base I know of has facilities worse than my old primary school unless you want to pay to join the fitness suite I fail to see how can be expected to maintain an arbitrary standard in your own time.
Prior to yet another lengthy detachment I strolled into the gym and asked for a fitness programme from the 4 PTIs discussing their next fun run. Sorry only do those on Thursdays, told them I was detached on Thursday, reply:shame!
I learnt to swim at 3, learnt to ride a bike at 5 and can still operate for 24 hours without sleep and fly at low level without throwing up. As for fitness to survive, the chances of surviving the missile strike are slim and wher would you run to, coupled with the rest the crew being possibly less fit or injured and the appalling kit we are/are not issued with seems pointless on balance.
Scrap the PTI branch along with "swimming tests" and "fitness tests".:ok:

[JessTheDog]

Seem to recall that Wg Cdrs and above in certain posts still have to do CCS. Thought everyone had to do the fitness test, including those with scrambled-egg on their hats.

I hate the fitness test, my crap sense of rhythm doesn't help keep time with the bleeps! The old 1.5/1.5 mile run was better and did not have those knee-knackering on-the-spot turns!


One gripe I forgot - more bloody work for the Flt Cdrs! The next new thing will be something like "plus or minus 10% of the body weight for your height or you're out":p

[kilo52]

Would Douglas Bader have passed the test?

[akula]

Very eloquently put kilo. :ok: :ok: BRAVO!!! THAT MAN

[brakedwell]

kilo52
I thought he designed it!

[The Gorilla]

Bader would have done exactly what the Airships of today are doing:-

RHIP and I have no intention of doing it!!

I met Bader once, Greenham Common circa 1980. A man who did not appear to suffer fools gladly!! Arrogance the size of a hangar, but then he was a hero!!!!

:ok:

[RichiePAO]

The police have been talking about introducing fitness tests for bobbies throughout their service for some time now.
All they apear to have done is reduce the standard for prospective candidates in an effort to meet Blunkets increase in the number of recruits for each Force. The successful new recruits then do a few fitness tests for the first two years of their probation and some even fail that! For example the shuttle run now appears to have become a shuttle walk for those who need to make the minimum standard - no wonder the bad guys keep on successfuly running away from a young officer whose had one too many Macdonalds Big Breakfasts:ooh:

[Ali Barber]

When I did Av Med a long time ago I was told the best thing you could do as fast jet aircrew was pump iron. It built up the right muscles for g tolerance. The worst thing you coul do was be a running racing chicken. It lowered your resting heart rate and reduced your g tolerance. the middle of the road option was the overweight slob hanging around the bar and smoking. He had a higher resting heart rate pumping blood around his clotted arteries and so had a better g tolerance.

Fit for the job but what is the job. Frontal assault up a hill or strapped to a bang seat pulling g?

[airborne_artist]

I did the RN Aircrew survival couse many years ago. The fittest guy, semi-pro racing snake, rock climber, XC runner, squash fanatic, the lot, succumbed to mild hypothermia on day 2, and whinged the rest of the week. The fattest just chortled his way through and looked with glee at the scales at the end of the pie-free week as he found he'd lost a stone.

Moral: Put on a stone before outbreak of hostilities in case you have to involuntarily dismount from your aircraft.

[CatpainCaveman]

Kilo - you win starters for 10!

As far as I'm concerned, Douglas Bader has passed! He was fit enough to do the job - and bloody well too. Anyone that cares to argue, one pace forward and we'll'discuss it outside.

If Bader was fit enough to fly & fight in WW2 minus legs, then C/T Bloggs, NCO i/c Comcen RAF Sleepy-on-the-Wold has no excuse whatsoever. Neither does AOC Sleepy-Units-With-Nice-Gardens.

Bader would be max-rate turning in his grave if he could see what was going on now-a-days, and quite-rightly so. As someone that has passed fitness test 6 weeks after an orthopedic op on lower limbs without too much effort, there is no excuse for failing other than being a gash bas**ard.

Crap PT facilities on camp is not an excuse. You can do sit ups/push ups in your room and you can run around/off camp. So do it rather than bleet about failing your AFT.

Remember, in a lot (not all/most before people get on their soap boxes), failure is due to your ar**hole being smaller than your mouth. And yes, I have passed every test I have taken before you ask!

[brakedwell]

In days of yore when Wednesday afternoons were designated sports days I have happy memories of OM billiard rooms, fag in mouth, pint at the ready (if the bar was still open), practicing the finer points of snooker with other reprobates off the squadron. There were no fitness tests then, keen and ambitious souls who ran, swam, kicked balls around or threw things for their Station/Command/Service, or just collecting Brownie Points, went off to their their things. Then they reported sick with pulled ligaments, fractured, twisted backs, etc, etc, etc, while we kept on flying. As an aside - Flu,mumps, Montezumas Revenge and all manner of malladies seemed to strike those super fit athletes while we worked our arses off.
Thank goodness I'm too old do it all over again!

[AISno]

I think it was the Chief Constable of Wiltshire who was successfully sued by a Dog handler who failed his police dog course whilst a female passed it. The only reason he failed was that he didn't complete his final test (some sort of obstacle/fitness test) in the allocated time for his age/sex, whereas the woman had although her time was infact longer!
Unfortunately for the Police force, it appears they had different standards for Men & Women. The judge ruled that if she was fit enough to chase burglers, then so was he and that burglers were unlikely to run away at different speeds depending on who was chasing them :)
With this in mind, I was under the impression that the MOD had been directed to move towards role-specific testing and not gender/age biased tests. Anyone heard of any more about this?
In these days of looney European court rulings, it's only a matter of time before someone dismissed for not being fit enough, but who's fitter (or had to pass harder tests) than his female collegues who are still employed by the MOD receives an extraordinary financial award for loss of career/income. Anyone remember pregant women etc? The precedence has been set :)

[opso]

For those of you that haven't seen the IBN that has circulated on this, whilst it will be technically possible to bin someone for failing their test, it is going to be a very long and difficult process provided that the individual undertakes remedial training from the PEd staff. The measures are much more aimed at those personnel who try to dodge out of doing their fitness test altogether. The steps as basically:

Don't do your test, get a flt cdr interview and ordered to complete within 14 days. Still not done? Formal interview with sqn cdr and ordered to complete within 14 days. Still not done? Informal warning and ordered to complete within 14 days. Still not done? Formal warning and ordered to complete within 14 days. Still not done? Dismissal proceedings can start.

Seems fair enough to me - if someone repeatedly disobeys orders to do some as simple as run up and down the gym, then you have to question whether they can be relied upon to do their job! After all, we are all in the military and do not have the luxury of picking and chosing which orders we will follow and which we'll just ignore.

[JessTheDog]

If anybody wants to dodge a 12-month PVR wait, they can not turn up for their fitness test and get out in just over 2 months! Question is, what happens to any preserved pension benefits in the case of an admin discharge??

The point about different standards for men/women is well made. I can see a redress followed by an ET on the basis of sex discrimination for different standards leading to dismissal, and MoD subsequently opening the corporate wallet. It will be some chiseller with a chip on their shoulder against the "system" but they will have a point nonetheless - some forms of equality are more equal than others....

[Pontius Navigator]

Senior officers are usually fit but never seen one actually do a fitness test. Mike Elsom at Coningsby got all his wg cdrs to do the 1.5 milerun in the 80s. They could hardly refuse leading from the front. The run was good fun though, about 2/3 of a mile to the small arms range and the same back. It was done in the hundreds at a time.

CCS? Joke. As aircrew we didn't have time for the full day and the rocks went along with it. Couldn't fail too.

As far as the later fitness test, I managed to keep ahead of the game. I got older faster than the test came in. Still I cycled 6 miles to work every day in 20 minutes or so.

[J.A.F.O.]

Excellent news for clearing out those that want to dodge the fitness requirement and are generally lazy and often a burden in other ways.
Load of pish.

[vascodegama]

I would say the neutral test is long over due. I am quite happy to give up my age "advantage" and do not have a problem. Of course it will be interesting if it is the Flt Cdr that cannot pass his fitness test !

PS It was Hampshire but the story sounds otherwise right.

[Gainesy]

Cops in Sussex must be smarter, they let the dog run after the baddies.:cool:

[Stitchbitch]

Excellent news for clearing out those that want to dodge the fitness requirement and are generally lazy and often a burden in other ways.

pish

quite


I have this nagging doubt that the guy in the first quote probably still lives with his mum .For the record (and I am sure most of you don't share this guy's opinions) Not every unfit junior rank is a skiving ner'do'well...:mad:

[BEagle]

What ever happened to the days of the famous Australian who, as quoted by one of our wartime heroes, was heard to say to some jockstrapper:

"If you want to get fitter, mate, get yourself a heavier glass"

...before going back to the true aircrew pursuit of quaffing ale in a gentlemanly manner whilst all the racing snakes damaged themselves committing sport of some sort or another.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Maybe we should note that the RAFFT is not supposed to be an ordeal. It is not intended as a USMC-stye superfitness test. The RAFFT is alleged to be the minimum level of fitness to be a healthy human being.

I don't think that it's about fitness for the job, it's simply about having the self respect to keep yourself healthy.

As for aerobic capacity reducing 'g' tolerance - not at level 9.6, mate!

Have a nice day!

P.S. Has anyone seen the size of PMB (Pres. Of Med Board) lately? What a standard of health to set to all those aspiring recruits.

[difar69]

Exec on my Sqn collared my crew Captain recently to inform him that the RAF in its infinite wisdom is introducing mandatory PT for those about to deploy to the Middle East. Apparently this is in order for us to acclimatise more quickly once we are in theatre. So not only do we have the usual hoops to jump through pre-deployment, we're also going to have to go down the gym and be taught how to keep ourselves fit. Some of us are intelligent enough to do that by ourselves. Another ruse to force people to leave perhaps?
Any other Sqns heard about this?:mad:

[Biggus]

difar69

I have seen some paperwork about it. I believe it is an 8 week programme. Still at least that means:

1. I will get a minimum of 8 weeks notice to move.

2. I will be in the UK for 8 weeks prior to my deployment.

Then again...... maybe not!!!

P.S If they want people to acclimatise why not send them somewhere warm and sunny for a couple of weeks (all expenses paid) prior to deployment, the Caribbean, Seychelles, Maldives all spring to mind!!!

[BEagle]

PEdO empire building scheme, perchance?

Don't think it's a requirement in the airlines - who, incidentally, are starting to recruit again slowly but surely.

It must truly be such spiffing fun in HMFC these days.....

[JessTheDog]

RAF in its infinite wisdom is introducing mandatory PT for those about to deploy to the Middle East.

Is this in work time? I bloody well hope so! The pre-deployment procedures are enough of a pain in the ar$e and we take enough work home with us without giving up more family time.

Individual or collective PT in work time would be, in general, a good thing. There must be a middle way which allows adequate enjoyable fitness training without kicking the ar$e out of it and treating people like children, which our service is sadly very good at. The excuse that "it's your own responsibility" does not wash anymore, we have all been in the position of bringing enough work home as it is. I tried to organise a Wednesday afternoon sports league as a flt cdr some years ago and got so much cr#p from execs that I gave up and would never recommend it again!

Sadly, I think that a work-to-rule and challenge-the-system mentality will slowly start to raise its head as cuts and more tasking mean that we work harder. For example, if I do Orderly Officer (as I do) then I am breaking MT regulations if I drive during the silent hours. I would not play this card at present as I recognise that the system works overall...sort of. However, if things got worse with additional niff-naff and bulls#!t I would start to consider invoking H&S. Thankfully my exit date is within reach and I won't even see the new pension scheme that is going to shaft new entrants.

[Ali Barber]

Recently came across a French Navy (shore based ) det in the Middle-East. They're forbidden from committing sport outdoors here at this time of year. Can't blame them as (much to my shame) I tried to commit sport last night in 95 degs and I thought my brain was going to boil. Couple of beers afterwards cooled things down though!

[[email protected]]

Uncle Ginsters - spot on - the fitness test standard is very low and anyone who can't maintain an appropriate level of fitness to pass it (excepting those with real injuries and not fabloned biff-chits) should draw the Mess Webley and do the decent thing.
How can any spotty yoof joining the RAF take seriously some lardy git in a spray-on flying suit?

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Fitness Test - Fail and You're Out!

In order to debate this subject satisfactorily, and in case any important policy makers read pprune - someone must play Devil's Advocate.

I have a friend who thinks he might be a fat lazy useless git.

But surely, this is a deep psychological problem, therefore a medical condition.

An admin discharge? Not on your nelly! A medical discharge with an enhanced pension.

Unless of course we would like to spend our increased defence budget (in real terms) on litigation.

Carry On.

[rudekid]

Compulsory pre-deployment training has briefly raised itself above the parapet, but with a mouthful of common sense sandwich has been quickly consigned to the 'maybe next time' bin sitting in AOCs office.

Still the massive quantity of whingeing and raised heart rate caused by this rumour amongst the butterballs has probably done the job and got them all a bit fitter.

Fat people: Get off your backsides and start eating a bit less. We're a military force, you're a shambles! If you can't pass your fitness test ( injury excepted ) then you should be Not Combat Ready and left at home with the children. No excuses.

Any fatty who goes to the Middle East with any ideas that they can do as good and as professional a job as their healthy fit Sqn mate is living in cloud cuckoo land. This is not about effort, it's about reality. Any fatty already doing a good job, think how much better you'd be if you could avoid overheating?

[whowhenwhy]

I seem to remember many moons ago questioning how it is that we are expected to maintain a certain standard of fitness to carry out our duties (fair enough) and yet are also expected to do, as long as you're not a total blunty, a long day, secondary duties oh and see the family, bluff old traditionalist that I am. I got shouted down for being a barrack room lawyer and was told to toe the party line!!! Lovely!

I hereby call on Mr T Bliar to introduce legislation for a 26 hour day so that we can finally have the time to do all the things that we have to do. Obviously civvies and blunties will get a specially shortened, though not tax exempt, 21.2375 hour day to accommodate the extra hours that the military are working so that, at the end of the fiscal year his friend Gordon's books balance.

[The Swinging Monkey]

whowhenwhy

That gets my vote!
Just a couple of things you gorgot..........
hold permanent standby,
work most weekends
show lots of vips round the jets
give talks on jets to civvies visitors on evening
.................................
Oh, and occasionally get some sleep!!

Still, must get the important things in place first eh?
CCS, GDT, RAFFT, PDT (vital for stats you know!)

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Mad_Mark]

rudebrat...

Any fatty who goes to the Middle East with any ideas that they can do as good and as professional a job as their healthy fit Sqn mate is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I know several people you'd call 'fatty' (well, probably not to their faces) that are CR(A) and CR(S) cat aircrew. They do not live in cloud cuckoo land and still operate their aircraft in the Middle East to their cat standard, and do so extremely professionaly. But of course the racing snake CR cat obviously does a much better and more professional job then them :rolleyes:

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[JessTheDog]

A 4 day week would save non-essential (ie low readiness units)fuel, electricity, heating and lighting costs and would allow time for PT and secondary duties!

Go on someone....it might get you promoted!:D

What does p:mad: s me off is the growing perception I have of bean-counting for the sake of bean-counting. Equipment got to Iraq, however was not distributed within theatre....it got there on paper so that's alright then. There are a few lardarses that show up as an unsightly statistic...so let's revamp the fitness test system (yet again) and make everyone requalify or make everyone do pre-deployment PT (hopefully not, as it may turn out). One instance requires money spending...let's not do that. The other instance just involves f:mad: king people around at no cost. A no-brainer for those that pass as leaders in our service today!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

The fitness test is a piece of piss and anyone who cant pass it first time should be told to F*ck Off, let alone be given four attempts. The offenders should be charged if of appropriate rank or 1021'd if of the right calibre.

There are a cadre of people out there who avoid CCS and fitness tests due to a chronic lack of moral fibre and it boils my piss.

[BEagle]

If you're over 40 and hold an ATPL, you have a medical every 6 months, rather than annually as in HMFC (unless you're over 50 and the medical centre have read the rules)

Isn't that a reasonable way to assess aircrew fitness - by doctors not jockstrappers? Discuss.

Of course, if you're not aircrew, that doesn't really hold sway.

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle,

yet again, your common sense approach and comments come to the fore, and once again you get my vote.
It should be the medics who decide whether or not we are fit to fly, NOT a bunch of PTIs who have nothing better to do than kick a ball around all day, and pi$$ people about with their unearned 'power'
Dirty - you are a nob! If you can't say anything sensible, then don't say anything at all. Lack of moral fibre?? I doubt you even understand the terminology.

Regards to all (except the nob Sanchez)
The Swinging Monkey

[rudekid]

I know several people that I would call 'fatty' to their faces; CR (A) fatties and CR (S) fatties, it matters not. They're still fatties!

I don't doubt that they do a good job sitting in aircon cockpits at FL250, but if the aircraft ( god forbid ) gets downed are they really best positoned to evade through the desert? Are they in the best position to help load an aircraft that has landed at a bare base and needs to turnaround ASAP. What about the fat engineer sweating working on your aircraft. Is he likely to be doing as good a job as the healthy fit geezer. Professional people will of course get the job done, but if they were fitter would they be doing a better and more efficient job? This isn't just about aircrew, it's about being in the military. It applies to Aircrew, groundcrew, blunties and RAF Regt. It's about doing the best job you possibly can to maximise the effort for the team.

If you're fat/unfit you can't maximise this effort. Fat RAF personnel are one of the main reasons we're seen as a waste of space by the other military formations.

Anybody who argues that RAF aircrew should be assessed like the civilian airlines should perhaps leave and fly for one, if that's where they think it's at! Fitness to fly and the fitness level required of a military aviator are two differing requirements. Most military pilots will have realised this, even some VC10 pilots.

Failed fitness test = NCR. Bring it on.

PS You don't need to be thin to be fit or vice versa, apologies to any overweight fit people, I didn't mean you!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

the swinging chimp

just expressing an opinion, after all this is a forum for that kind of thing, sorry if you dont agree with me but just say what i see at my little corner of the RAF where there are certain individuals who havent done CCS for many a moon due to their medical downgrading for having a band aid on their ankle. Also there are more than a healthy amount of people in our "fighting force" who couldn't even pass water, let alone a fitness test. Just disgruntles me a little when you see those who dont do their bit for the team. Obviously rattled your cage though, no offence intended, but would rather you didnt decree what is "suitable" and what isnt for this forum. Apologies if you are an ex jockstrapper or bluntie.

Also, what makes you think that I am not qualified to decide what a lack of moral fibre is?

Regards DS

[airborne_artist]

In the RN all on board ship are required and trained to be able to fight fires.

Therefore, in my opinion, all should be fit enough to make a very good stab at fighting the fire, regardless of trade/rank. It might not need much fitness to be the radar operator, but if you can't fight the fire, then you are worse than a dead weight

Lose the ship, and you've no chance on your own in the oggin.

Perhaps it's not so clear cut in the RAF, but the point remains - just being fit enough to do your primary task might not be enough when push comes to shove.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Oh Dirty, what have I done?

You don't like it cos I disagree with you, and when I agree with old BEags, I'm licking his arse! well, well, can't win can I?

OK, firstly how does skipping CCS or RAFFT make you lack morale fibre? I didn't miss or fail any CCS or RAFFT, but I know lots who did, and they most certainly did not lack morale fibre in any way. How can you possibly make such a judgement?? It shows a somewhat arrogant attitude on your part old bean.

I am most certainly NOT an ex Bluntie (that was probably the biggest insult you could bestow on me) but I did spend 32 years in the RAF, flying for about 31 of those years. I readily admit that towards the end of my time, I did get overweight and lass fit, and whilst I won't make excuses there were mitigating reasons.

However, despite being overweight, it never affected my ability to perform my flying duties in any way at all. And, even if I had failed the fitness test, or refused to do the CCS it would not have meant that I lacked morale fibre. I would challenge you to swing from a long rope, at night in a gale blah.

Your comments were offensive, and if you are who you claim to be, then you will retract the ones about lack of morale fibre. Fitness has NOTHING whatsoever to do with morale fibre at all.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
BEags old chap, sorry for agreeing with you!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Swinging Chimp

Retracted final comment as you will have seen, unnecessary and childish!!!

My point is simple, the RAFFT is something that we all (bar Wg Cdrs) and above we al have to do. There are some people who get out of it one way and another because of trivial issues, which I see as a lack of moral fibre, not morale fibre. My understanding of this is someone who isnt prepared to suffer a little personal pain to achieve a goal. If this is wrong then I stand corrected. Dont know if that is a typo or wrong end of stick but I am not talking about morale, I am talking about a handful people, who wherever you are in the air force seem to whinge, whine and get out of doing the physical stuff because it doesnt suit them. Maybe I should have been a little more eloquent with my original post but the fact still remains that these people exist and it annoys me.

I am sorry that you find my view arrogant, but it is exactly that, my view! After all these are people who we are trained to fight with, but they dont want to go in the chamber cos it makes their eyes hurt. If they cant hack it they should go elsewhere.

I dont think it is unreasonable for people to be expected to pass their fitness test first time. If they cant be bothered to keep fit, then what does that say about their suitability for a career in the military?

[JessTheDog]

Can someone correct my ignorance, but I thought all ranks had to do the RAFFT, and that the CCS requirement was mandatory up to Wg Cdr, with some Wg Cdrs and above in expeditionary-type jobs (which job isn't now;) ) requiring CCS currency.

My view is that, if the lowest AC requires CCS and RAFFT as a minimum, then CAS should be running the bleep test and in the gas chamber alongside him. Any other scenario displays a disgraceful and lamentable lack of leadership from people that are paid large amounts of money to supposedly know better. We are indeed dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants, as those who invoked the name of Douglas Bader have pointed out.

[Trumpet_trousers]

....I think this whole argument brings up a wider issue; that of double standards.

CCS/RAFFT etc. etc. have to be commented upon in OJARs only if the individual has not completed them, which is a fair call, as O's and NCO's should lead by example.

BUT:

To have that comment raised and written by someone who has not completed these things himself is lunacy.......... credibility, anyone?? Discuss. :mad:

[musclemech]

Gentlemen
Some facts for the thread:

iaw QR430, the RAFFT is mandatory for all ranks: I have personally taken CAS (not the present one i might add) on his test, and just taken my (Gp Capt) Stn Cdr's today. Those over 50 take it voluntarily if they wish.

The RAFFT is not a test of operational fitness/ fitness to fly/ fitness to do any job. It is a health assessment. If you can pass it, it can reasonably safely be said that all or most of the parts that make up the healthy you, are in order: ie diet, alcohol consumption, exercise, cholesterol etc. However, some people are naturally fit, and can pass the test despite poor diet, smoking heavily and drinking vast quantites. No assessment is foolproof: this is the best field test, that is easy to administer and is repeatable. For instance you would complain if you failed the 1.5 mile run if you took it on a windy day.

The sit ups are crap, but they are the best way to do them to standardise the movement. if you have a bad back, you can get the SMO to make you exempt that part of the RAFFT and still take the rest.

The Policy letter which started off the thread simply provides 'teeth' for flt cdrs to use to work on those individuals who do not respond to remedial training. Put simply: if you fail the RAFFT and undergo the 18 week remedial training package as prescribed by your friendly PTI, you will pass the test, or at the very least make an improvement. If you are making an improvement, you will have nothing to fear from the policy because you are showing some sort of positive attitude. If you dont improve (and there is no, ie medical, good reason) you have not done your remedial package: Action can now be taken whereas in the past you would probably have been forgotten.

Finally, PTIs do not all sit around discussing the next fun run or kicking footballs around the gym: we are too busy drinking coffee, admiring ourselves in the mirror and using the sunbed....

[JessTheDog]

There is obviously resentment at the new system, which I admit to feeling myself. It can be agreed that:

a. A minimum level of fitness is necessary.
b. Anyone dodging this is likely to increase the burden on others.

However:

a. Another set of hoops to jump through makes us all upset.
b. We particularly resent the "nanny state" attitude that the RAF excel at on occasion.
c. The f@#k-about factor the RAF excel at also upsets us.
d. Double standards upset us even more.

It's a balance between the two and the system tends to upset the majority rather than tackling the minority. Like the collective reamings we have all endured at one stage, when the tempting response is "p!ss off Sir, I pull my weight, don't you have the b@lls to tackle those that do't".

[Fliesty]

Dirty

I am almost in complete agreement with you and I do believe that avoiding both the RAFFT and CCS, in whatever medium, shows a lack of moral fibre.

More importantly, in MY view, I do believe that it shows a massive lack of self discipline. Maintaining a basic degree of fitness and knowledge on CCS based subjects is surely a minimum in todays current environment which sees the Air Force reducing in numbers almost daily.

In addition, I also believe that a good degree of fitness is beneficial to both yourself and the people working with you. Lets face it no one likes picking up the pieces after a less than fit individual can not up the pace when it is necessary, in whatever branch it may be.

Finally I also agree with the fact that it is a disgrace, highlighted by Jesshthedog, that higher ranking individuals are exempt from one/both of the afformentioned tests. Surely if they are imposing such a decree then they should at least be prepared to lead from the front. I am aware that some high ranking members do indeed share this point of view but the majority are preaching from a much higher pedestal. If this was indeed imposed on this sector of the Air Force then, I do agree with a previous comment earlier in the thread, it would complete a much needed culling of the Airships.

More Air ranks and above than aircraft, surely not!!:ok:

[Open Sauce]

I humbly volunteer to be crewed with the 'unfits' 'fatties', 'lazy b@st@rds' or whatever you'd like to call them. If they are exceptional in the air then they have less chance of crashing in hostile territory. If we are unlucky then I'll outrun them when the baddies come and they can keep the baddies busy for me.

[action_lynx]

Agree entirely with airborne_artist: should be fit for whatever situation arises, not just to perform in your own part of ship.

As a point to note, whilst I'm not sure if you get kicked out for failing (seems a bit dramatic!), the RN made a big thing a while ago (Much to the PTI/Club Swinger's delight... :mad: ) of making sure that everyone in the service passes the RNFT - a directive from 2SL.

BEagle does make a very valid point - that Doctors and not Jockstrappers should make the decision as far as fitness to fly goes. I Agree 100%.

However... Come on chaps! Surely there must be a bit of personal pride left in the Light Blue! Who can look themselves in the mirror having just failed the MSFT? :rolleyes:

AL

[West Coast]

MSFT?

Microsoft fitness test???

I supposse if one is to only fly tankers far fom danger or only to push paper in the rear (not that way, admin way) then one can be a porker. If however one can reasonably be expected to perform combat arms duties outside of the normal job you should be able to perform physically.

[Lionel Lion]

West Coast.......so tankers fly far from danger do they? during the conflicts they were over Iraq, Afghanistan and not too far from Serbia and Kosovo.

But they do have an oven for the pies.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Lionel,

Are you a tanker man? If so, then a million thanks for saving my bacon on more than one occasion in Bosnia, Kosovo, GW1, Afghanistan and GW2!!!

I only wish you could find a way of getting Pies and Mars bars down that little tube!!

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[West Coast]

More tongue in cheek. Tankers have saved bacon also. Was on CH53E that was low and running out of options until a KC130 saved the day.

If your going to be in the military then look the part is the point.

[Pontius Navigator]

The fitness regime kicked off with Charles Maughan of London-Paris air race fame. As OC IX about 1966 he ordered enough Canadian 5BX Plans for all aircrew on the station. They duly arrived from the RCAF and were opened by Central Registry. They saw the word PLANS and immediately sent them to the WAR PLANS Officer. The Vault Officer, realising how dangerous these plans were, secured them in the vault. Actually the 5BX is the best, incremental programme, designed to get you fit and keep you fit, that I have seen.

Next, when Charles became OC Waddo he tried again.

Then in the early 70s, following an article Fit to Survive? The CMedO got the ear of an Air Officer, guess who, and a quarterly 1.5 mile run was introduced for all aircrew. I think only the poor saps in 18Gp where, guess who, was working had to do it.

No time was allowed for training. As far as I know it is RAF Policy only to schedule fitness training in PTC. I did the run, once, without training, and passed. I saw little point in doing the same thing 3 months later especially as those who had failed it had neither the need nor the scheduled time for remedial training. Besides which, running 1.5 miles in x minutes hardly helps when you are stuck in an MS9 500 miles north of Saxa.

Now that we need so few aircrew we can perhaps beging to take it seriously again.

[BEagle]

Tankers far from threat....?? When the RWR tag showed ambiguity with less than friendly types behind us (Floggers) in a particular theatRE of operations not that long ago, it was at least reassuring to be told by AWACS that they were, in fact, homeward bound friendlies! Some of Uncle Spam's finest Naval Aviators sent some very nice thankyougrams after it was all over, so I guess our fitness to conduct ops was satis!

The 1.5 mile without timelimit nonsense had amusing consequences back in the real days of Eating Command (before I joined it) when some racing snake Boss decided to make all his aircrew set off around the station sports field....and to record their times. Ambitious young lad had reckoned without Aircrew Cunning - so when a large number of dear old gents in hats and coats, plus walking sticks and labradors began a slow wander around the field, stopping every so often - quite often, in fact - for an amiable chat whilst lighting their pipes, he was somewhat outf*cked. Evidently the last of the old reprobates eventually ambled across the line about 3 hours after they'd set off!

So he didn't try it again...!

[Bigtop]

Certainly within the RN Fleet legal advisers are in the throws of rewriting the guidance to ensure that the fitness test is complied with and that common disciplinary action is taken fleet wide.

At first glance it appears that failure to achieve the fitness test will result in compulsory attendance at remedial training. The remedial package apparently is excellent value however the big prob is people chose not to attend. This is likely to lead to being charged with absent fm place of duty and possibly wilful disobedience as the requirement to attend will be laid down as an order.

See the audit trail being built. Repeated failure/attendance at remedial training will allow ultimately for discharge to be brought about one way or another.

Personally - if you're in the military you should be fit. For an organisation that has a very limited EO policy on diasabled people we owe it to ourselves to be professional and uphold the standards req'd. Afterall - its not difficult.

:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Beagle I think they also had plenty of liquid refreshment too.

On the survival aspects we had the record on our sqn for erecting a suspension para teepee, setting out the camp site, and getting a fire going for a meal, a coke fire no less.

We were not allowed, as nuclear deterent crews, to spend the night out in case we caught colds or some such and crippled the super white detergent.

We went to the old airfield at Folkingham and the bus dropped us off in the old bomb dump. Unknown to the PJIs who were supervising this was the same spot as the previous year.

We recovered the rock, with its paracord on, slung it over a tree, hauled up the parachute, recovered our cache of tent pegs made the previous year and set too.

The old radio crate, full of coke, was dry in its hidehole from last year too, and away we went.

Mind you even the modern racing snakes do that. We discovered a cache of parachutes, cooking utensils etc in the wood at Otterburn.

[West Coast]

"The 1.5 mile without timelimit"


That's a fittness test? Certainly you have to be kidding.

Sounds like my morning walk with the dog.

[kilo52]

I remember, many moons ago, when I was scheduled to fly a certain Mrs (now Lady) T to Brussels for a Conference, that I needed to do a Dinghy Drill to maintain currency. There was just enough time for me to complete the drill in Uxbridge swimming pool first thing in the morning and return to Northolt in time for the Task.

Cpl PTI demanded that we all complete 15 lengths of the pool before we commenced the Drill and told me that if I did not then I would be marked down as "FAIL".

I pointed out that, if the aircraft ditched, the 2 people least likely to survive were the Pilots. If we did survive and the Dinghy did not inflate and our LSJ's did not inflate then the likelyhood of our being within 15 pool lengths of the shore were minimal!!!