first job

[will 21]

Hey Guys,

Iwas just wondering if anyone could help mw with some advice.
I am completing my training in Sydney and will be finished in a couple of months. I have heard that obtaining your first aviation job is almost impossible.
i will have CPL, NVFR, MECIR, ATPL subjects, CRM and multi crew, as well as diploma and degree in aviation. About 250 hours total, 80 in a twin.

Thanks for your help

[takeonme]

im in the same boat mate,

book your centrelink appointment early.

[Luke SkyToddler]

www.mcdonalds.com.au

[34R]

Not impossible, as others before you have tried and succeeded.

This question has been answered well several times, and if you try a search I'm sure you will find a lot of information that will be usefull to you.

I won't tell you what you should do, but I will share with you what I did.

First job was as a meatbomber. Unfortunately the owner was a cretin and it didn't last long. There are some good ones out there and in terms of something like engine management, it may prepare you well for your next job.

Next was a job on a station. I used to ring the C.P. of a pastoral company every week, hounding him for some work. Having only about 220 hrs he initially wasnt very keen, but eventually he succumbed and gave me an opportunity to relieve a couple of his pilots who were due some leave. You work your tail off, both in the air and on the ground. It's not for everyone but it most certainly is a means to an end. While is wasn't the most enjoyable of jobs for me, it gave me enough hours to move on.

Next was a scenic mob in the N.T. Again, not the most mentally challenging form of flying but great fun and you learn to fly heavy. I would have prefered to land a genuine charter gig at this stage, however you take what you can get and the log book will tick over nicely.

I'm still in the top end, but now with a charter outfit that offers progression and I am really enjoying my flying.

So there you have it, not impossible. Most guys will tell you that attitude determines your future success, and they are spot on. The job won't find you, and you know what comes next, yes you will have to get off your date and pound the beat.
By all means send out the resumes, try to keep them to one page if you do, but even better, put yourself out there.

Be patient, be persistant and most of all, enjoy yourself!

[Wizofoz]

With the right attitude, you WILL succeed, BUT-

Your first job - Will almost certainly be in the Bush
- Will almost certainly be in a single
- May be unpaid (Parachuting, glider towing)
- May at best be temorary or part time/casual

A second source of income is a great idea. Get a cab license and a Bar ticket. Then at least you can eat while waiting for the first break.

I used to casual instruct during the day and stack shelves at night.

Tomorrow, however, I'm taking a 737 NG to Barcelona.

Hang in there and it will all happen!

[High Altitude]

Its easy really...

Head down arse up and do your job. If you have passion, commitment and a desire then you will succeed.

Don't get dragged into the 'I'm a pilot and my **** don't stink' mentality. Be prepared to work hard for 3 years, then be prepared to enjoy life following your passion of bigger better higher faster.

Mate there is a light at the end of the Tunnel hours mean sh*t it is all about attitude.

[R555C]

1.Best advice i can give is to do some reaserch. Many pilots head off to the bush and other parts of Aus without knowing who the operators are, how there business is structured, and what they actualy do. A good starting point is the CASA list of AOC holders, find out what sort of aircraft are operated, and what operations can be carried out.
2. Dont just pitch yourself as just a pilot! what else can u offer an operator as a potential employee. Most operators want to see diverse skills anything from IT, Marketing, Engineering etc.
3. Dont stay in one place too long, travel round, send a few letters make phone calls, i guarentee you your first job will come when you least expect it, probobly after you have given up!
4. Dont worry about getting any fancy endorsments (PA-31 etc), they are no use at an early stage. Get yourself 10+ hrs in a Cessna 210 and that will make a big difference.
5. A tail wheel endorsment (Cessna 185 etc) will be very handy. I know guys who have had job offers but cound not accept beacause of not having a tail wheel endorsment.
5. Get yourself an ABN, as a lot of opperators will want you to contract.

And finaly, Keep your head up, and keep looking as te job will come one day!

[penetrator]

wiz this is not a good promotion!
your first job - May be unpaid (Parachuting, glider towing) how is this a job? Will do yourself a favour dont fly for FREE, you are a professional dont lower your standards, you can land a first job that pays most people that do not pay must not have a very good business or good job security anyway which should make alarm bells ring do i want to be with an operation like this.

[grrowler]

Head down arse up and do your job.

Just make sure you don't do it infront of the chief pilot :}

[Wizofoz]

Penetrator,

First, if you want to portray a professional image, you might want to invest in a keyboard with a Caps key and a full stop, or else learn how to use them!!

The fact is that gliders are being towed and jumpers are being lifted by pilots who are almost exclusively unpaid.

Having 6 months/200hrs of either on your CV shows you've experience flying in high cycle, high pressure, semi- commercial conditions, i.e. flying as a JOB not as FUN.

I did some jump flying, got a good swag of operational hours out of it, next stop was a full time charter job and the wonderful climb up the ladder.

That was 17 years ago. Since then the only flying I haven't been paid for has been in sport aircraft I've owned.

Whatever it takes to get that first step up the ladder...

Edited with an after thought.. High Altitude, can you jump in here? Does having some jump flying or glider tugging impress you when someone applies to work (paid!!) for you?

[Cypher]

I don't get it..

how come just about every time I hear jumpzone and pilot, I also hear the word unpaid, when it applies to an Aussie dropzone..

Over here in NZ, I've never heard of a drop pilot flying for free...
And most full time drop pilots make enough to live on... (mind you they are usually flying turbines..)

[Wizofoz]

Cypher,

I think there is a higher incidence of small, club DZs as opposed to commercial operators here.

I think those flying turbines at the larger DZs ARE being paid, but the average country C182, C206 type club operation tends to be on a volanteer basis.

[Utradar]

Sorrryy couldn't resist ,

Edited with an after thought.. High Altitude, can you jump in here? Does having some jump flying or glider tugging impress you when someone applies to work (paid!!) for you?

I think any sort of tugging would impress him even if it's paid for!!

:}

[Wizofoz]

Well...

Given the choice of a jump or a tug...

[redsnail]

Wiz,
Didn't think your name was Warren? :E

[Wizofoz]

The NG don't have a crew rest red! Though at least we can lock the door, and one of my FOs is a pretty fit young lady...

[High Altitude]

I personally think that limited jump flying and tug flying is GREAT experience. The commercial pressure is huge however you MUST be professional and keep your standard. Make sure you get reimbursed, don't worry if its not in the folding stuff, an AFF course costs over $2k do one of these, likewise if tugging get some glinding for free (more experience).

The actual procedures of both of these types of flying require alot of discipline and flying the numbers. Just don't get caught staying there to long, do a season and get out.

and yes everyone likes a good tugging...... :p

[Kaptin M]

From another forum here on D&G, I understand that some aviation businesses in TASMANIA, specialise in tug work
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74860

Good on you, for the following, H.A.The commercial pressure is huge however you MUST be professional and keep your standard. Make sure you get reimbursed, don't worry if its not in the folding stuff, ANYONE who does work for free is not only lowering his own standard, but is also making it harder for others, by setting this sort of precedent.

[Tankengine]

Just thought I would clear up some misconceptions about glider towing [I know little about Paras]
There are both commercial organisations and clubs operating gliders in Australia.

Most of the clubs tow with their own towplanes, Pawnee the most popular but some C182, 180, Citabria, Husky, Supercub, Maule, C150 [don't laugh, with a 180hp replacing the 100 they go like stink!]
The Pilots are club members, mostly PPL as it is a private operation. You would be very unlikely to be paid! When away at a camp or at a competition the tuggies usually get fed and accommodated. You would be required to have some gliding experience to get a tow rating, solo prefered. It is good fun and experience, most clubs would welcome a new young member getting hours as long as they are professional and look after the tugs, engine management is crucial when towing to save Lycomings from overheating/shockcooling. As HA said, it is very good experience! You would expect about 2hrs a day.

Commercial centres employ CPL tugpilots, I would hope they pay but it won't be a lot! You should get a lot of free gliding maybe on days off! The job is more general than just as a Pilot. They are usually country areas so you would expect accom, some are B & B. The job would involve helping to get the gliders to the strip from the hangar , towing them , refuelling, maintenance on tug & possibly gliders, retrieving gliders from strip in arvo, sometimes retrieving gliders from airfields or paddocks by tug or by road. You would expect 2-3 hrs in the air a day for 10-12 hours at work.
Do it for a season or 2 and you will get a couple of hundred hours and some invaluable commercial experience that employers [if the knew anything about the job] should value.
It would be one of the hardest working jobs for the least renumeration around, managed by some hardnosed individuals , many foreign - great training!:)

[flyhardmo]

back to the question.
I took the africa route/root and got hours up that way although not easy and expensive with minimal hours.
If i could do it again I would instruct till I had 500 or 1000hrs, magic insurance numbers then shoot off to Africa. There hours can come thick and fast and its a hell of a experience. good luck

[penetrator]

Yeah sorry wiz didnt think that this was an english forum that really mattered where full stops commers & crap were put but since YOU bring it up maybe you should buy a dictionary or use spell checkThe NG don't have a crew rest red! I think you mean bed? You my friend & people like you are why the industry is the way it isWhatever it takes to get that first step up the ladder... point proven another point wiz nearly every dropzone in aus has some income from tandem ops if they dont & are only fun jumpers why dont they get a pvt pilot to be the lift driver i have done some bombing which was always paid infact the dz wanted to lower the pay so i was out the door like a flash would you like it wiz if someone would fly your NG for half the pay you are getting some how dont think so keep it real mate.

Tankengine good points

Sorry to all that read this with no punctuation its just for wiz :E :ok:
Looks like Kaptain m is seeing where im coming from:ok:

[Wizofoz]

The NG don't have a crew rest red!


I think you mean bed?

Errr...no, it was a reply to my friend Redsnail (red for short), not bedsnail.

People DO fly NGs for half what I get..E.G Pac Blue, and paid for their training, their type rating, and no doubt did "Whatever it took" to get to their position. Good on them. They now have the choice of staying where they are with, no doubt, an enviable lifestyle, or can take their hard won experience to places where the money is better.


Yes a PPL can fly at a club dropzone, and no doubt be grateful for some free flying. But why shouldn't an inexperienced CPL do the same, and gain experience that will further his career?

Oh, and whats a "Commer"?

[penetrator]

A commer is a comma but spelt the way i thought you would be able to read & relate to it. I thought if i had spelt it the correct way first off, you would have related it to your illness a coma. Why dont you fly your NG for free?

[Wizofoz]

Slag away Pen. (Trust me, you're making yourself look like a REAL genius)

Hope the thread gave the young fellow some useful information.

[locusthunter]

Flyhardmo, check your pms
:cool:

[the wizard of auz]

Reddo,
Its not. ;)