Cabin door ripped off Jetstar plane, passengers stranded

[Wirraway]

abc.net.au
Monday, June 21, 2004. 10:29pm (AEST)

Cabin door ripped off Jetstar plane, passengers stranded

An investigation is underway into a mishap involving a Jetstar flight from Sydney to Coolangatta that has left more than 100 passengers stranded on the Gold Coast tonight.

The plane was damaged in an accident on the Sydney airport tarmac.

The budget airline says the incident occurred as the plane tried to depart the terminal just before 7:00pm.

Corporate relations manager Simon Westaway says it appears the cabin door of the Boeing 717 was still attached to the airbridge.

"There was no impact on the passengers on the plane in terms of any injury under any circumstances, however the aircraft was inoperable to fly," he said.

The cabin door was ripped off in the incident.

Around 125 passengers were transferred to other Jetstar and Qantas services and were all due to arrive in Brisbane or Coolangatta tonight.

But the return flight from the Gold Coast has been cancelled and Jetstar will meet the accommodation costs of the 125 passengers left stranded at Coolangatta.

==========================================

[pullock]

Reality check.

That's what happens when you remove layers of safety to save money..........accidents and false economy.

Now the jetsafe campaign is proven right after all. (it was only a matter of time).

There is no substitute for experience and qualification. Return engineers to the tarmac before a more serious accident happens I say.

[Mr.Buzzy]

**** has, does and will happen!

[Capt Claret]

Perhaps the answer is to not connect the aircraft door to the aerobridge. :\

[Chuck Magutzup]

F.O. Gee its lucky we checked those pax in 30 minutes prior.
CAPT Yeah, lets get push back quickly, or theyre going to pay us more!
F.O. Crikey, you are right. We dont want any more pay! Request push back.
CAPT Fantastic. We just ripped the door off! That will show the QANTAS group how much we really should be paid!
F.O. Can we rip the others off too?


One day the travelling public will wake up to the fact that these people are dangerous. I'm just worried that it will take an A320 clearing a forrest before they do.

[itchybum]

heheheee......

Chuck......I like it :ok: very funny.

But I know a few J* drivers and two in particular are probably better pilots than you are, unless you're very much in the upper ranges in terms of aptitude, airmanship, SA, etc, etc. The rest, I don't know but these guys check them.

I've flown with them.

[Wizofoz]

Capt:- Arrrr... Isn't it great we're such great pilots and therefore paid so much!!

Fo:- Yes oh imperial master and chief of every thing....but...may I have your exalted permission to go around as it's a bit rainy?

Capt:- Yes err no err I have it..no I don't umm err......HHmmm, might be time to cash in my super and buy a small South American country...

[Mr.Buzzy]

so did u have your new camera handy for this one Clarrie? Or anyone else for that matter?

[golow]

Chuck Magutzup
Do you fly? If you do you are the only child pilot I know. Have some pride in yourself and get out of the gutter.

[DirectAnywhere]

Perhaps instead of this crap, people posting on this topic should be asking why this is the second incident in 12 months in Sydney by a QF group aircraft that has resulted in damage to the door by pushing back with the door open and aerobridge in place.

[virgindriver]

Reality check.

Sorry but didn't they manage to pull off the odd one or two Airbus A330 doors with the HELP of ground engineers? ;) Correct me if I am wrong....

[DirectAnywhere]

That's the one VD...

[yellow rocket]

Since when did Coolangatta OOL have airbridges???

[airsupport]

Sadly, unless they change their ways, this will as predicted be the first of many incidents. :(

You cannot just discard safety built over over decades, purely to save money, and not expect incidents and accidents. :(

Hopefully Jetstar will now follow Jetsafe, as does every other Australian Airline, before there is a much more serious incident. :(

[bombshell]

I'm not sure on how Jetsafe would have guaranteed a different outcome here, after all didn't the QF A330 have a ground engineer in attendance when it had it's push back incident in SYD?

[lambsie]

Just goes hand in hand with the Jet*/Impulse crews who have retracted the slats/flaps before gear up three times in the last 12 months. Flies like a mushy bar of soap I hear.

[Lodown]

Just by way of interest, anyone know the extent of the damage and how long the aircraft will be off line?

[Buster Hyman]

Yellow Rocket.
What does OOL's lack of aerobridges have to do with this? The incident was allegedly in SYD.:confused:

Now, I consider myself, somewhat of an expert in matters of Door vs. Bridge incidents. And having "crunched" a DC-10 door, I think I can safely say that these incidents should never happen when there's Gingerbeers on the Tarmac. However, accidents, oversights & Fcukups do happen. Whilst we can postulate over how it happened & why it wouldn't have happened if...blah, blah, blah...the simple answer is that everyone has to be vigilant, that includes Tech's, CSO's, engineers etc. Mind you, as a punter, I'd rather know that you blokes up the front are concentrating on things other than if the door is shut.:uhoh:

But, that brings me to my only question. Is there a door warning system on the B717, like just about every other aircraft out there?

[QF skywalker]

Lodown - the a/c involved was VH-VQA - it was back online serviceable as of 0300hrs this morning.

[mauswara]

I was 9 yrs with a 3rd world Pacific Nation Airline, only 1 recorded ground damage incident that I knew of.Every turn around done on "melanesian time".i.e. NO RUSH. I'm now with an airline contracting co.where ground damage is not uncommon, sometimes resulting in a/c lay ups of up to a week.The problem is contract ground staff being pressured to turn aircraft around too quickly! Expect more of the same, especially when the new "larger"buses arrive.

[Wirraway]

AAP

Annoyed Jetstar passengers diverted
June 22, 2004 - 10:19AM

Discount airline Jetstar's passengers booked for a flight from Victoria's Avalon Airport to Sydney today were forced to drive about 80km to Melbourne Airport after damage to a plane forced the cancellation of their flight.

The 6.30am flight to Sydney was cancelled after the plane was grounded in Sydney last night because of damage to a cabin door.

Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said the plane's door was damaged due to the airbridge still being attached when the aircraft was being taxied away from the terminal.

"The aircraft was pushed back too early and the airbridge still had some connection to the aircraft and it affected the door," he said.

"We took the precaution that we believed the aircraft was inoperable and deboarded the passengers."

A Melbourne businessman who gave his name only as Damien was one of the passengers inconvenienced by the cancellation.

"It creates the difficulty I have just driven to Tullamarine, had a little challenge getting on the (replacement) Qantas flight ... They have said you will be flying back to Avalon (and) my car's at Tullamarine," he told ABC Melbourne radio.

Mr Westaway said that Jetstar recognised that some passengers would be inconvenienced, and was trying to assist them.

"We have tried very hard, given the lateness of the incident last evening, to get passengers on the Qantas service," he said on Melbourne ABC radio.

"Certainly we're at fault and we will be speaking to those passengers."

- AAP

==========================================

[3 Holer]

Yes,mauswara ,you have correctly identified a possible causal factor in this accident.

25 minute turn arounds and the pressure to be out on time may have played a big part in this accident. Qantas may like to review the wisdom of this combination in future planning.

Chuck Magutzup, you should consider some serious CRM / Human Factors training or pursue another career, if in fact you are a Pilot.

[pullock]

To those who compare QF damaging doors on A330's - lets compare apples with apples.

Impulse, whilst engineers were responsible for pushouts, has NEVER had an incident. Within three weeks of removing engineering qualification and experience from the process, the first incident has ocurred and it's a MAJOR one where it is lucky bobody was standing in the doorway..............

Some of you people need to acquaint yourselves with James Reason's theory of aircraft safety barriers, and clearly that is also the case in airline management as well. It's time CASA stood up and made safety it's highest priority rather than pleasing business.

I believe that most of the fault in this incident lies with CASA for not ensuring maintenance of public safety.

The aircraft was not VQA and it will be out of service for quite some time.

[Buster Hyman]

Perhaps they can rush that A320 into service to cover the fleet gap? That ought to fix the problem.:rolleyes:

Now, did anyone honestly think that punters having to drive between Tulla & Avalon would never happen? It amazes me that they are unsure as to how they can help the inconvenienced punters! Surely this formed part of their risk analysis with going to Avalon?

Bottom line for the punters; you've had the cheap fares, now here's the no frills!:hmm:

[Fris B. Fairing]

Hey Buster

Just curious to know how you managed to crunch a door on a DC-10. I too would have been a participant in such an incident several years ago had it not been for the inward/upward cabin doors on the DC-10. Come to think about it, the cabin doors were one of the few things I liked about the 10.

Cheers

[Skyway]

An aircraft could be turned quicker with more professional people, this is not the problem.

How about the FO and the Capt agreeing on the question are we clear to push back and are we clear to taxi.

No Sir we are not, the aerobridge is attached! Rushed or not, the buck stops up the pointy end, if the plane is not ready to push back then the damn plane is not ready to push back.

Pilots need to stick together, have some balls and show some management skills. After all even with all the management in the world the Captain is the sole responsible person for the well being of the flight.

So to all out their, stand up, do not let the panic of management cloud your decisions. Twenty five minute turns are the goal yes, but not at the cost of lives, hulls, embarassment. Management would rather a 10 min delay than a please explain from CASA.


For Gods sake be safe!

[Chuck Magutzup]

Skyway is right. The pilots need to agree that the aircraft is safe for push. You can see from the cockpit whether the aerobridge is still attached, let alone whether the checklist item of DOORS - CLOSED is complete prior to push and engine start.

These guys were too busy thinking about their pitiful salary.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This mob is fricking dangerous.

[Lodown]

I was going to make the comment that the aircraft back in the air at 0300 after the possible stresses placed on the fuselage and undercarriage was phenomenal, but then pullock's reply seemed a little more plausible.

Next question - how do the pilots do their checks in the sim and on the aircraft? Is DOORS -CLOSED regarded as a routine response in the sim and the real cockpit partly because of the reliance on the ginger beers? Pull the ginger beers, put in some time constraints and people could be forgiven (debateable) for carrying on with making the check a routine response in the cockpit as well. Just a thought. Although not with the door and fortunately without damage, I've been there and caught myself doing that before. Red faces all round.

[gaunty]

I am having a really difficult time drawing a line between whatever their salary is and the door not being shut.:{

James Reason may have something to say on it, but at the end of the day, there were more than the two persons in the cockpit in the chain.

However at the end of the day;
DOORS - CLOSED is complete
prior to push and engine start,
surely must be the line in the sand, from which the Captain must take total responsibility for his aircraft and the flight, regardless of external intervention.

I am prepared to be educated otherwise.

I am reminded of a, for me rare, white knuckle departure from SEATAC during a snowstorm deiced by cherry picker four times between bridge, taxi to and on the runway, each time the FO came back for a look through the overwing windows, for correct application and that the rig was clear.

[Lurk R]

Engineers might have helped prevent the door catching but everytime I've seen an aircraft drop to the ground because of the nosewheel retracting, its usually been an engineer in charge!:uhoh:

[Buster Hyman]

Ahh, Fris B....that's a story for another thread....;)

[airsupport]

As I have mentioned on a previous thread, we almost had the exact same thing happen to an A300-600R in Brisbane in the Compass days. :(

ONLY thing that saved it, was that Compass was Jetsafe. ;)

[Buster Hyman]

Time to duck, airsupport! :eek: :rolleyes: :}

[Rostov]

This one is for the pilot bashers.
The incident was caused by the remote control's for two different aircraft being mixed up. When one aircraft was cleared to push the ground support had the remote for the other aircraft's power push vehicle. Fortunately the tech crew were on the flight deck, obviously they had decided NOT to help with the cabin cleaning on this occasion. Quick work buy the skipper on the brakes caused minimal damage to the aircraft which is expected back on line at lunch time today (22/06/04).

[airsupport]

Surely, EVEN on PPRuNe, one cannot get into trouble for telling the truth? ;)

[Kaptin M]

Hmmm, I'm not going to jump in too early and blame the crew just yet, as there are several people usually involved in pushbacks...(i)the Ground Engineer/tug driver who tells (ii)the Captain the aircraft is ready to go. The Captain then asks (iii) the F/O to request pushback clearance from (iv) SMC.

Let me recount a story from several years ago, that happened in LAX. We were parked at an aerobridge - parking brake set ON, tug hooked up - watching the door lights go out.
As the last door closed, the Ground Engineer blurted something across the interphone that none of us understood, but which - by consensus of opinion sounded as though he was telling us that they were ready to push. And so the Captain called back to Ground, "Confirm you are ready for pushback?"
Almost immediately, the over zealous tug driver went into action, trying to push a fully laden 747 back with the park brake still ON". Fortunately a STOP from the Captain prevented any damage.

So let's not race in too quickly and hang the crew just yet.
And btw, Chuck, if you feel so strongly about maligning the Impulse crews, and accusing them of being dangerous, then follow up with the strength of your convictions and submit a report to CASA, outlining the reasons on which you base your charges.
After all, it's CASA who have licenced them!
Put up - or shut the fcuk up!

So my question is, "Are tugs used? Or do they use those motorised thingamies that attach to the mainwheels?"
Oh, and one more, "Who on the tarmac is responsible for advising the crew that they are clear?"

[airsupport]

Kaptin M,

I certainly wasn't blaming the Crew, I blame the Management of Jetstar. :(

However, even in your scenario, IF you take away the Engineer AND the tug, as Jetstar have done.......... ? Not many people left to blame. :confused:

Are you sure it was an Engineer/Mechanic at LAX?

Just most places it is not, certainly never was at JFK.

[Lurk R]

I've just had a source with a story along the same lines as Rostov. If that is the case, who provides tug support for Jetstar? Is it possible that they were just an innocent third party?

[Keg]

Funny how Chuck and a few others point the finger at the techies so quickly. Whilst this may have had EVERYTHING to do with the desire to be 'low cost', the version of events on the QF ramp would suggest that Rostov is spot on the money.

So, based on the info I have, this was not caused by a couple of techies being neglectful (nor was the A330 door with QF earlier this year). This happened because somewhere along the line, a number of mistakes have been made. Undoubtedly there was an active failure but it will be interesting to see if any latent failures are identified in the way it occurred.

Chuck, you're a disgrace. :rolleyes:

[gaunty]

Keg mate, not pointing at techies just asking the question, where does what start and end and if Rostov is even close about the remotes that's really scary.

If it was my house I can see it now, search high and low for the remote, yup knew it would be in the garden, click to change channel from MTV to Discovery and the 747 on the stand at Perth starts backing out with baggage handlers service trucks all hanging off it with the crew watching out of the window from briefing. :E

There's only one person in charge of the remote in my house and that's my wife. :\

[Chuck Magutzup]

So, help me understand. Why were the brakes released in the first place? Surely the procedure for the 717 is the same for every other Boeing. That is that the brakes arent released until cleared for push by ATC and engineering? If not - then something very very basic is wrong here.

I might be a disgrace, but I am correct. The mob is still fricking dangerous. And Keg? You are a self righteous fool. Your comments are so predictably nice on every occasion that they make me want to ralph.

[itchybum]

hehe.... "ralph"!! I like it....... another good one from chuck. :p

meanwhile what is this remote you're all referring to?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Do you really need to be a qualified engineer to check a door isn't connected to something other than the aircraft before trying to move it though? :confused:

[airsupport]

Apparently, just ask Jetstar........... ;) :uhoh:

[Lurk R]

Chuck - I think you've missed the point. It allegedly appears that the damaged aircraft was not intended to be moved at all. Ground staff have possibly moved the wrong aircraft by means of the wrong remote control.

[I'm gone!]

Gday all,

Please excuse my ignorance, but can someone give me the run down on the use of the R.C tugs.

All sounds a bit dodgy to me!

Cheers,
I'm gone!

[Lurk R]

Heres a link to the website for the tugs (http://www.schopf-gse.com/products/tractors/powerpush.php)

[I'm gone!]

Thanks Lurk,

I have seen these type of machines before,i.e driving the mainwheel tyres rather than pushing via the nose gear assembly, but I am not familiar with the "remote control" part of it. I understand that in some operations the crew are given turn direction commands from the engineer and manouver the aircraft into position steering via the tiller.
Is the "remote" connected to the "pushmotor" by a cable or some other means?
Who operates the remote and where does this person stand/walk when the push is commenced?

Can anyone from the 717 operation answer the above and perhaps advise the normal procedure used.

Interesting:confused:

Cheers,
I'm gone!

[18-Wheeler]

Deleted - RTFQ, Bill .... !

[AN LAME]

Do you really need to be a qualified engineer to check a door isn't connected to something other than the aircraft before trying to move it though?

...it would appear so as the crew were incapable on this occasion ;)

...do you really need to be a qualified pilot to fly an aeroplane... :p (Sorry, just thinking aloud and couldn't resist :) )

This is a good example of two sets of eyes being better than one - and that's all it is.

Pass-A-Frozo you sound like management material to me - don't understand what someone else does or has responsibility for - then let's get rid of 'em :(

Saw the proposal for the tugs at Ansett and they were always going to be of concern. We were advised at the time that if they ran out of control they could tear the main gear of a B737 like a tin can if the brakes were parked.

Glad I'm not driving it :O

"You can teach a monkey to ride a bike...":ok:

[Wizofoz]

Chuck,

At the risk of being repetitious, until Jetstar park one in a golf course (OR drop one on its nose!) YOU have no right to spout about who is and isn't dangerous.

Indeed, you seem to possess the self-righteousness that is a key factor in incidents like those I've alluded to.

[Big Jan]

I can try, but helping you understand is probably beyond my capabilities as you are such a f*ckwit chuck mygutzup !
The park brake is released on arrival at the gate as a standard procedure.
Your constant harping on about Jetstar pilots being inferior to your magnificent skills and even trying to implicate them when an incident has been shown to have nothing to do with them just shows how pathetic you are.
What makes me laugh is your disparaging remarks about a group of people who come from such a wide ranging background and level of experience that trying to put them down as a group just shows how stupid you are.
Accidents happen no matter who you are or what level of training
you have undertaken.Just ask the the crew in Bangkok or the A330 crew who had their door ripped off or the crew that decided to ditch in Perth.Maybe speak to the guy's who overran the runway in Darwin.
You are the one that is the accident waiting to happen with your inflated ego.
Oh and by the way , mind you don't drop your captains navbag when you carry it to the terminal you miserable LITTLE pr!ck !

:ok:

[orva]

Ba146 in Perth have never lost a door coz Dicko has got them parking in the vacinity of the Perth Flight Centre. Hate to park on an aerobridge. Would have to pull the JEPPS out to see how too do it!!

[Kaptin M]

It seems that some of you are STILL missing what would appear to be the CAUSE of this accident - yes, accident.
per favour of Lurk R:-
It allegedly appears that the damaged aircraft was not intended to be moved at all.

In other words, the aircraft concerned had the remote-controlled motor - that is attached to one set of mainwheels - INADVERTENTLY activated,
It still remains to be seen whether the "controller" for the (pushback) device of the fated aircraft was mistakenly swapped for another, or whether there was an actual MALFUNCTION.

It may well be that if there were more than 1 of these devices being operated - which are supposedly wire-less - there COULD be frequency crossover.

How about - instead of trying to blame SOME ONE, we look at what systems are being utilised, and the probability of error THERE!

Even with park brakes set ON, Chuck, it would take only a couple of centimetres of movement for a connected aerobridge to seriously damage an open cabin door.
As for Chuck's comment, "I might be a disgrace, but I am correct. The mob is still fricking dangerous."......Yes, Chuck you ARE a disgrace, by way of your unfounded, unprofessional digs.
And "NO", you are NOT correct!
If they were "fricking dangerous" (shades of that village idiot, Winstun), Chuck, then QANTAS - which oversees the Impulse operations - or CASA, would have acted.

And "Yes"...you are a disgrace, for posting UNFOUNDED statements about other "QANTAS-family" pilots!!

[Kaptin M]

Whilst I don't like what Mark did in "that year", I do object to someone using a nom de plume that is a poor attempt to make postings under a thinly disguised veil.

Having known this person from quite a long time ago - in spite of his regretful decision - I would hope that the poster using the above title (the one before AN lame's) re-consider HIS position.

[Rind Skin]

Reeled him in....... didn't even put up a fight!

grease monkeez will never get over the ignominy (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/i/i0027300.html) of their own insecurity..........

Go on lame-y, we're all on your side. Honestly.....

Puh-LEASE! !! Bring back the limeys.......!!! No?

Ok. One minute of silence for the LAMEs everyone. :zzz:




:{

And to Kap 'em:
someone using a nom de plume that is a poor attempt to make postings under a thinly disguised veil. Well if it wasn't veiled what's the point of a nom de plume??? Do you even know what that means?? Anyway isn't that what everyone around here does???

What the:
Hell are you talking about?
**** are you smoking?
Hell can I get some??
Whilst I don\'t like what Mark did in "that year", You mean \'quit his job\'? Or \'NOT quit his job\'? Or apply for it back? Like you did??I would hope that the poster using the above title re-consider HIS position. Lemme think about it for a sec....Mmmmmmmmm......

*thinks*
*picks nose*
*inspects it*
*flicks it*
*gets idea*

Answer to Krap M:

Booger off!!!!

PS "HIS" ?? Why the **** is everyone so SEXIST around here???

[rammel]

I have worked in the industry for over 15 years and throughout The last probably 10 years I have noticed a steady decline in standards all around.

This decline is rarely in the skills of the people at the coal face, but more of how the bean counters have more say in how the operation should be run. The people who then have to implement these changes are then classed as negative if they say anything against change so they just plod along. Don't get me wrong I am not against change if it for the better and if it helps everyone.

As to comparing this incident to the QF A330 incident one thing I would like to point out is that over the years QF have gone from a 2 man push back to a 1 man push back. The ATSB report says that the engineer had checked the door and was then standing at the nose of the aircraft ready to push back. If he was at the nose of the aircraft he most likely would have been on the opposite side to the door and therefore would not have seen the bridge put back on.

If this happened at QF with a 1 man operation can we expect more of these at J* due to it being a zero man operation done by remote control.

Sorry about the ranting about this incident but you would probably find the similar storys of cut backs for efficiency thoughout the airline.

[Kaptin M]

Well if it wasn't veiled what's the point of a nom de plume??? Do you even know what that means?? Anyway isn't that what everyone around here does??? A nom de plume ISN'T meant to be used as you have - to attempt to nominally identify a "high profile player" to the many people who knew him.
" Do you even know what that means?? - It was I who chose to use the phraseology - NOT you!

Yes, I do know!

"Anyway isn't that what everyone around here does??? " Most of us use nom de plumes (pen names/assumed names/pseudonyms/false names), but these are generally non-vindictive.

Aussies are renown for their sense of FAIR PLAY - even if it means LOSING at times.

Because, in the longer term, it means WINNING! :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Oh my god, I don't believe I'm doing this...

Rhind, pull you head in! The Kap is right on this one, and you're making an A******E of yourself!!

I'm just going to lie down for a bit...

[Wirraway]

Wed "Melbourne Age"

Jetstar mishap blamed on poor training
By Selma Milovanovic
Transport Reporter
June 23, 2004

Hundreds of Jetstar passengers had to be transferred to alternative planes after an airport ground handler used a remote control on the wrong aircraft, causing a plane to pull out of Sydney Airport still attached to a passenger airbridge.

Qantas's new budget airline was forced to cancel six flights after the 717 was grounded with serious damage to its front cabin door following the incident on Monday night.

It is believed that the handler, using the remote control to activate the "push-back" of an aircraft from the terminal, accidentally moved the adjacent 717 while it was still loading passengers.

Unions blamed a lack of training in the operation of the remote-control manless tugs that are used to push aircraft away from the terminal building.

Glenn Nightingale, a senior airline official from the Transport Workers Union, said: "Questions must be asked if training in this new technology is adequate when this guy made a blunder of using the wrong remote control."

The union is expected to hold a meeting today.

The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association claimed workers employed by the Qantas-owned Express Ground Handling were receiving as little as two hours' training.

But Jetstar's media manager, Simon Westaway, denied this. He said that maintenance staff were well trained and passengers' safety was a priority.

"The training on these units is not two hours," Mr Westaway said. "The training, which consists of both practical training and classroom briefing... is the equivalent of up to one week's training."

The mishap caused chaos for Jetstar passengers, with many forced to take alternative flights.

Victorian travellers who pre-purchased tickets for flights between Avalon Airport and Sydney yesterday morning were instead forced to fly in and out of Melbourne Airport. While Jetstar provided a 50-seat bus to shuttle passengers between Avalon and Melbourne Airport, some travellers opted to drive their own cars.

Mr Westaway said that while the damage to the plane's door was minor, the aircraft, which returned to service at 3.30pm yesterday, was halted as a precaution.

He said Jetstar had handled the disruption well, especially given the challenge of two airports for its Melbourne-based flights.

"Tullamarine to Avalon is not the length of the Sahara... We deeply regret the incident but disruption could occur on any airline," Mr Westaway said. "As we grow services into Avalon, the ability to recover quickly will increase dramatically."

But the aircraft engineers association federal secretary, David Kemp, said the incident was an example of Jetstar cutting costs at the expense of public safety.

He said similar mishaps were likely to happen again.

"You can save money by cutting out the tea and coffee, squeezing in more seats and not washing the aeroplane and the public will accept that... but I don't think they will accept aircraft that are maintained at a lower standard," Mr Kemp said.

=========================================

[Kaptin M]

Always ready to load the blame on to the Chinese (sorry guys, just a convenient name) "Sum Por Kun"!!

WHY are cel phones (portable hand-phones) not allowed to be used on board aircraft??
Who's to say that "Sum Kun" did NOT turn OFF his phone/use his phone on board the affected aircraft, thereby activating the remotely controlled push-back thingamey??

The first rule for Aussie males now seems to be "DENY.............DENY............DENY!!".

Why should THIS one be any different, when people are looking to lop heads to save their own??!!

[Ozgrade3]

I have worked with the pushback operator in question for 4 years and spoke to him today. Indeed it was a case of wrong remate control box. He is an experianced and competent pusback driver with probably over 1,000 pushbacks + over the last 4 years without incident, mostly on the 717 and 727. he is a good operator and knows his stuff.

Though, it didnt stop us all giving him a jolly good razz about it..........will take him a long time to live it down.

I must take the papers article to task, the new Express Ground Handling blokes recieved comprehensive training that the guys in my company( the one that starts with A....) could only look on with envy, so much so most of our guys are looking to defect to Express.

[Kaptin M]

Though, it didnt stop us all giving him a jolly good razz about it..........will take him a long time to live it down. Good one, OG3 - it probably would have cost BOTH crewmembers their JOBS, had they been shown to have been responsible!!

[itchybum]

yeah let's all give him a good razz about it.

Didn't this happen at Ansett once? Right here in ML? Some tug driver pushed the nose gear through the bulkhead on a 737(?) and it collapsed at the gate with a load of punters on board.

The "poor bloke" went home and crashed his car on the way out. Then blamed Ansett for his traumas. No sacking for incompetence, probably just pay-outs for trauma and Ansett training and HR "failures" under threat of union action for "heavy-handed standover tactics". Meanwhile a jet sitting on it's arse losing (even more) money and two drivers being grilled in the basement. (in hindsight the bloke was probably another "plant" like Trevor...)

But let's all hope this guy who pushed the wrong button and had a UD in SY the other day is promoted or something.

Next time I'm in the SIM I'm gonna try the equivalent of that blunder, see if I still pass. Will advise.........

[DirtyPierre]

Itchybum, steady on. You've never made a mistake? Not a fan of the "Reason Model" of incident investigation? No?

If a guy who has 4 years experience and 1000+ pushbacks has an accident, probably the reason is a little more complicated than incompetence. His record shows that he isn't.

Ever heard the term pilot error. They don't use it anymore. Its because incidents and accidents are caused by a myriad of reasons including training deficiencies, system deficiencies, human limitations, etc. Don't judge the man when you are not in possession of all the facts.

Remember, there but for the grace of the aviation god, go you.

[compressor stall]

But Jetstar's media manager, Simon Westaway, denied this. He said that maintenance staff were well trained and passengers' safety was a priority.

"The training on these units is not two hours," Mr Westaway said. "The training, which consists of both practical training and classroom briefing... is the equivalent of up to one week's training."


(My bolding)

You might think it to be equivalent to one week's training - but how long actually was it? Was it 5 days of 9-5 training?

How can any other length of time be equivalent to a specified length of time?

if it was a week, then say it was a week.

WTF can't people call a spade a spade these days?

:{ :{

[/RANT]

CS in a midnight tirade against circumlocution.

Edit by W to add the appropriate / :8

[airsupport]

Maintenance staff probably are very well trained, it is just that with Jetstar they are NOT there on tarmac.......... :rolleyes:

[Watchdog]

OZgrade 3,
thanks for providing the real lowdown on this.

Sounds like this accident is due to human factors/procedures utilising the new equipment (power-back tugs).

Maggotsup, (sic)
Proven wrong,...again! (The 717 procedure requires park brake OFF!) :=


Airsupport(LAME),
It appears that a qualifield LAME could have made this error also, so what's your angle about "jetsafe"?

[Buster Hyman]

Look what greeted me this morning!

An opportunity exists for a motivated and enthusiastic individual to join our Melbourne based Safety and Quality team in the role of Safety Analyst.

To apply for this opportunity or find out more click on the link below or visit the "about us" section at www.jetstar.com.

[FluffyBunnyFeet]

Chuckma, airsupport, pullock etc etc - a little quick to shoot off aren't you?

So fast in fact, I'm not sure y'all couldn't be described as having "hair triggers"! I pity your poor 'partners of choice' if you make a habit of 'unloading' with such short notice...

Still, your ilk have never needed to get a good handle on the facts before condemning wildly in the past have you?

With investigative skills like that, y'all should be shoe-ins for a job with the ATSB. NOT!!!

[Capt Claret]

Chuckma said; Why were the brakes released in the first place? Surely the procedure for the 717 is the same for every other Boeing. That is that the brakes arent released until cleared for push by ATC and engineering?

Assuming (a dangerous thing I know) that there may be more similarities between a 717 and a smurfjet than immediately meet the eye, could it be that the brakes are released after the wheels are chocked to improve brake cooling during the turn around?

If so, could it be that the crew weren't ready for the chocks to be removed, nor for the remote tug to start tugging, hence the park brakes were not set?

I can only agree with FluffyBunnyFeet's expressed sentiments. :hmm:

Lambsie et al,

For you and your pilot bashing ilk, try this link, http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=536 Qantas 737 leaves runway at Darwin.

Or this one, http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=310 a Qantas B737 tail strike during takeoff.

Or this one, http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=316 a Qantas B747 over running a runway.

Or this one, http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=122 My GOD it’s a Qantas 737 retracting FLAPS INSTEAD OF UNDERCARRIAGE And the pilot making the error was the Captain, no less!

So is this a dig at Qantas?

NO!

Its to point out that Qantas pilots aren’t the gods you and your ilk make out, nor are pilots of Jetstar/Virgin/National Jet etc, the failures that you like to portray.

The only genralisation that can be safely made about pilots is that we’re all human. All Humans make mistakes, sometimes.

[Pharcarnell]

1). Bean counters should NEVER RUN anything, including a chook raffle.
They should count beans and tell you how many you have and give an opinion when ASKED, never expecting it to become policy.
Bottom lines can never be calculated accurately when there is no algorythm for "people", and calculation is all they know.

2). An accident is very rarely a single incident, it is most often a collection of small, appearantly unrelated, occurences which just happen to occur at exactly the wrong time together and any one missing would have prevented the accident totally.

[airsupport]

I have NOT blamed anyone? Except Jetstar themselves for their dangerous policy of not being Jetsafe. :confused:

As for quick off the mark, hardly, this sort of thing was predicted by myself and others weeks ago, and sadly there will be more incidents as long as saving money at all costs is their policy. :(

Hopefully Jetstar will not ruin Australia's fine safety record. :(

[Watchdog]

Airspurt,
I FAIL TO SEE HOW not having Lame's doing push backs would have contributed to this accident! Lame's are far better utilised doing LAME stuff such as attending to defects, and imparting their technical advice to the drivers.

[airsupport]

I do KNOW that you don't understand. :rolleyes:

However it doesn't seem to stop you commenting?

A lot of the problem is that there are many people at Jetstar that don't understand. :(

I guess a lot of you are just happy to have a job, however it is just so sad that you are prepared to operate LESS safely than Qantas or Virgin Blue. :(

[E.P.]

"Noms de plume" is the plural Chucky 'ol boy. ;)

Now, why don't we talk about "Rip's" finest and defining moment....the white shirts!! :ok:

[Oz Ocker]

Your the one that don't understand, lame/air support.
Mate, how could a LAME 'ave prevented THIS particular incident. The remotes for the pushback devices were mixedup....or dont LAME's EVER make mistakes? :rolleyes:
An by the way mate, you must get the award fer the most number of posts with no substance in 'em!

[Chilli Muscle]

So.... Has Trevor applied for Virgin yet ?.

[HANOI]

Give it a rest will you 'LAME' , you are becoming a nuisance yet again.

[Lurk R]

LAME, you were straight into blaming Jetstar for being unsafe. Then when it transpires they just happened to be the unlucky buggers sitting at the wrong gate, your posts drop back to the generic "Jetstar are unsafe anyway". Please give everyone else some more respect than that.

- We all know that you have a mindset against them.
- We all know that this will probably never change.
- We all know that you bring your opinions up in any thread that makes the vaguest reference to Jetstar.
- We all know your stance and respect your right to have that opinion.
- We all wish you would just move on like others have!

[spinout]

Can’t wait for some loon to get the frequencies for these push back vehicles and start driving J* aircraft all over the aerodrome

…maybe they will opt not to place the vehicle anywhere near the Main Wheels until the doors are closed…
:cool:

[pullock]

I muist correct two things here.

FACT: Simon Westaways press report was full of inaccuracy - JETSTAR MAINTENANCE STAFF DO NOT OPERATE THE TARMAC ANY MORE.

FACT: OG3's post concerning the experience of the operator is quite inaccurate. THE 1000 pushbacks is completely inaccurate and grosely overstated

FACT: It was a systematic error that I firmly believe would NOT have happened had an engineer been doing the job as they should be.

FACT: The incident proves systemic problem and thus the reduction of safety that the Jetsafe campaign has talked about, which is one that the regulator CASA has allowed to the detrement of the travelling public.

I can't help that a lot of you pilots are anti-engineer, this is an unhealthy stance to take when it is us who are responsible for the SAFETY of YOU and the passengers every time you fly, and for that, we get paid a pitance and treated like c rap by pilots, FA's and airlines because we are just a necessary expense.

Try working with us and not against us and the industry will be a better place for it.

[retnuhbacs]

Digressing, there remains one fact: Australia has been devoid of DECENT pilot's since 1989, until at least the advent of Virgin Blue (and departed Compass). The ones that "went back" (for not wanting to say the "S" word) were the John West rejects and the opportunists.

Nothing has changed in QAN-DOM and Jetstar. Likely never will until they manage to either seriously hurt or even kill people.

Flame away kiddies, and present and former "S" pilots. You know who I am talking about!


retnubacs wont be playing with us any more boys and girls, first post, offensive user name and THAT topic, not taking sides just moving right along. W

[Woomera]

airsupport

Watch my lips,

I guess a lot of you are just happy to have a job, however it is just so sad that you are prepared to operate LESS safely than Qantas or Virgin Blue.

This sort of "when did you stop beating your wife" form of negative claptrap is getting really really boring.

They have an operating license granted by the same mob that gave Virgin and Qantas theirs, same terms same deal, same hoops blah blah blah.

Lurk R got it in one.

Move on, shape up or ship out.

[BankAngle50]

Pullock is correct when blaming CASA for not maintaining safety. I believe there is a systemic problem with this organisation starting well before the CAA was split down the middle.

I’m guessing if people are trying to make 25 min turn arounds (ie rush) then more of these incidents will follow suit. I’m not quite sure if people should be pointing the finger at Jet* QF or DJ, but perhaps focus on what the regulator (CASA) is doing to protect the travelling public and maintain safety in this industry. If they were doing there job we would all be better off.

Personally I think 25 mins turn arounds are a joke. Commercial pressures like this force walk arounds to be rushed, Cockpit prep to be rushed, scans and checklist to be rushed etc etc… We have all read the Air Crash stories that have resulted from rushing. Ie AEROPERU B757 when the FO was rushing his night walk around and missed a small silver piece of tape covering the static ports. Easy done, especially at night. The end result was a 757 split into a million pieces in a crash that even Boeing test pilots said would have been extremely difficult to prevent. I’m just using this example to reinforce a point. If we are to fly more hours, more sectors, fatigued and be forced to rush quick turns, won’t we see more of incidents. Hence, is this not where the regulator needs to step in???

Don’t think its going to get any better. Fatigue management is just around the corner, where management will rip up CAO48 and we will all be flying Zombies. It just seems that if theres a rule or Reg management don’t like they just get a dispensation to remove the restriction. So much for safety in CASA. Why bother to keep CAO/CAR, just throw them in the bin because if theres a REG you don’t like ask for dispensation. What a joke!

[Buster Hyman]

I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same...:(

Might be a good time to mention the "crunching" DC-10 door at YMML...just to change the subject back to the thread.

If any of you recall the old articulated "Concorde" BRIDGE ON YMML's D4, you'll know it was always positioned to attach at D1R. Not much of a problem on a 747 or 767, but for the old DC-10's, this was a galley door. Quite narrow.

Well, there I was, young, dumb & full of...err...anyway, we were dispatching CO16 from there & I was just closing the door with those bluddy tiny metal switches that hurt your finger. As the door got to the bottom of the closing stage, about a foot from the floor, there was a God awful crunching sound. The door hesitated & then lurched free into it's closed position. The CO rep & I exchanged concerned glances and decided, with wishfull thinking, to retract the bridge. Just as I was shutting the bridge down, the door reopened. We could see quite a few legs in the doorway as it opened & none of them were in stockings (Not that we could see under the crews trousers!). When it was fully opened, there was the Skipper holding what appeared to be a handle from something. He didn't seem pleased.

What had happened was that, at some stage during the transit, someone had checked or moved the fire extinguisher that was located next to the door 1R. The handle was not stowed correctly & subsequently jammed on the door cowling. Luckily, we thought, the door was fine & closed correctly. Unfortunately for us, the lack of a replacement fire extinguisher was a problem...especially as it was a no go item!!!! :eek: A joyous 3 hour delay ensued.:uhoh:

My point was that even when you think there is no possible way a door can get damaged, it can. It doesn't matter who touched the extinguisher, **** happens!

[Kiwiconehead]

FACT: Simon Westaways press report was full of inaccuracy - JETSTAR MAINTENANCE STAFF DO NOT OPERATE THE TARMAC ANY MORE.

Is that all ports? I'm sure I still see the LAMEs on the headset in MEL.
FACT: It was a systematic error that I firmly believe would NOT have happened had an engineer been doing the job as they should be.

I don't agree, if the system failure is there (ie, 2 remotes able to be mixed up) then anyone would be at risk of making the error.

LAMEs are human, I know I am one (a LAME, human part is open for debate), therefore capable of making error.

I've done dumb stuff like telling a pushback driver to start pushing without telling the crew to take the brakes off, result: shear pin gone, 1 LAME looking like a ******** - yet according to all the twaddle written in this thread that can't happen, I am a LAME, I don't make mistakes, I am superhuman demi-god able to sweep all before me.

I think a number of posters in this thread need to take a rather less firm grip of themselves and start moving forward into the 20th century (baby steps, we'll work on the 21st century later)

[Kaptin M]

Although the company I'm with started with 25 minute turnarounds (not through flights), most of the time the return sectors were NOT out on schedule, and it was nothing to do with seats being assigned pre-departure.
If the flights are running near capacity - which I'm sure J* are hoping for - then forget it.

So was this affected flight transiting? Or was it an originating flight? (Just to see what factors were involved, eg. the "hurry up" syndrome.)

pullock states, "I can't help that a lot of you pilots are anti-engineer"
Well that's sure as hell news to me - I know a LOT of pilots, and do not know ONE who is "anti-engineer".
Without you, we ain't goin' nowhere!
We ALL appreciate the hard yards you guys put in - the long hours, cold nights in the hangars, grease, oil and kero soaked, for little reward. It does NOT go unnoticed, pullock, but I guess UNTIL something goes wrong, you're pretty much taken for granted - just as all pax assume that they're going to have an uneventful flight, mechanically, weather-wise, etc.
But please don't tar us (pilots) as "anti-engineer" - it's simply UNTRUE! It seems that you might have struck a "bad apple" at some time, or perhaps misinterpreted what was said at the time.

(And this is not directed at you, pullock - but by way of observation, isn't THIS particular thread attracting some "strange" characters?!! Starting with Chuck)

[airsupport]

I did NOT say that they were doing anything illegal.

Just that they are operating at a lower standard than Qantas and Virgin Blue, which is a fact?

Virgin Blue tried the same thing, but discontinued it.

Even though I have only stated the facts, I will consider myself censored over this incident then, and comment no more on it here.

This censorship will not change the facts though. :(

[Lurk R]

So was this affected flight transiting? Or was it an originating flight? (Just to see what factors were involved, eg. the "hurry up" syndrome.)

Kaptin, in this instance it is irrelevant isn't it? Does it matter whether the damaged aircraft had a 25 minute or 25 hour layover? At the end of the day it was not intended to be moved but somebody on the ground tried to move it.

[Kaptin M]

I don't feel it's irrelevant, Lurk R - I'm wondering if it were a 25 minute turnaround, whether the pressure to "get the thing out on time" was one of the factors that may have caused the wrong remote to have been activated.
And if it was a scheduled 25 minutes, did they have the FULL 25 minutes available, or did the aircraft arrive late?

After all, there has to be a reason WHY the wrong controller was (i) picked up, (ii) not verified as being the correct one, as there are obviously at least 2 of the critters, and (iii) not checked again before use.

If it wasn't ( a 25 minute t/a) then we could exclude that (hurry-up) pressure factor.

[Icarus2001]

If the explanation of the wrong remote being used turns out to be correct then WTF is going on with certification of this equipment for use in the hazardous (& expensive) environment of an airport ramp?

Look at the "real" world. 15 & 20 Amp plugs will not fit in to 10 amp power outlets. You cannot put leaded petrol in a car designed to take unleaded. Gas fittings are not interchangeable etc etc.

So how on earth can the equipment be "certified" for use with such an obvious oversight. Surely it should be designed as failsafe? Even remote door contols operate on different frequencies or use a rolling code.

[Chuck Magutzup]

Geezus, haven't I copped a flogging whilst I've been off air. Mainly at your hands Kraptin.

THIS particular thread attracting some "strange" characters?!! Starting with Chuck

Go stare at a mirror for a while Kaptin M. You'll be startled when you finally realize that you are a prime candidate for the Pprune Circus Freaks Hall of Fame.

I really don't care whether I am wrong or right in this instance. I am right about one thing. That is that Jetstar is an organisation of scabs and rejects. They are patently unsafe. Time will tell.

[Wizofoz]

Time has already told with your lot, though, hasn't it Chuck? After years of near misses, it's one almighty divet on the fairway (And an APPALLING handling of the incident by all concerned both during and after!) and counting!

The most frightening thing has been, however, that the entrenched attitudes of smug superiority that contributed to that and other incidents (Four "Superior" Qantas pilots sitting on a flight deck, taking off with no flight instruments because none of them understood how an IRS system worked! JEEZZEE!!) still shine through in the words and deeds of such as yourself.

Those of us in the real world know that attitudes like yours are what makes an Airline dangerous.

(And before you trot out the obvious response, yes I went through QF sellection and was offered a Job.. I turned it down largely because it would have meant flying with people like you!!)

[Chuck Magutzup]

Refer to my final paragraph above. An attack on me personally doesn't change the truth in what I have previously stated.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

It's not Qantas International you need to worry about - it's Qantas Domestic, and that little off-shoot Jetstar....

At least we no longer need concern ourselves with the abhorent safety of Ansett...

[Wizofoz]

Chuck,

You won't be able to reply to this (Aw shucks), but it was not a personal attack on you. It was a highlight of the ingrained attitudes displayed by a frighteningly large number of your ilk.

You are quick to label J* as unsafe, whilst arrogently ignoring that YOUR company has a PROVEN capability to have major accidents and incidents caused largely by these same attitudes!!

And you DON'T seem to be learning from it!!

Oh, and RTA, which of the four organisations you mentioned has come nearest to writting off a Jet airframe?

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

With Angus as CP of J*, I'd be a tad concerned!

'Nuff said!

[Pinky the pilot]

Having just read this thread from the very start the only observation I have is Pharcanell; I wish more people would think as you obviously do!:sad:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Keg]

Easy wiz. You're somewhat throwing the baby out with the bathwater with some of those comments. We all live in pretty sophisticated glass houses. :eek:

Remember, read the big red writing at the bottom of the page! ;)

[rockarpee]

Just got back from a 7 dayer, logged on to pprune, and once again completely embarrassed(probably spelt wrong) by the crap spewed out by so called pro's.Wanna bees, never will bees, shoulda bees, keeeeerighst awlmighty, we are fortunate to be able to learn from all this, why the hell do we hang sh*t on stuff we should be filing away, sorry guys but too much scotch tonight.I HATE TALL POPPY SYNDROME

[pullock]

Kiwiconehead,

You are right, Jetstar still have an engineering operated tarmac at ports where power push aren't used. Both the press release that I referred to, and my post were in context to the operating surrounding the power push, so Westaways inference that maintenance staff are operating the power push is disinformation, it is infact the porters/cleaners.

porters/cleaners/pushout operators.......what next????Load Control?????Talk about multi skilling...........

I digress, you also point out that engineers would not necessarily have pinpointed a systemic error, and whilst you may be right that an engineer may have missed the same, an experienced and qualified engineer would have been vastly less likely to have missed the problem, and would probably have been the crucial barrier between the danger of an incident ocurring and the incident actually ocurring.

There is no replacement for experience and qualification.

You wouldn't recruit a hairdresser to be a sky martial, so why is the industry being allowed by the regulator to recruit equally unqualified personnel personnel to replace engineers???

How much proof of the result of removal of qualification and experience do people need - it has taken just three weeks for a major incident to occur, and mark my words unless the regulator steps in to regulate this turning the industry around from this phase where safety is marketed by managements a dirty word, then there WILL be another incident - it's just a matter of time. The thing that scares me is that maybe next time somebody will get hurt.

CASA shouldnt respond to body counts, it should respond with a clear view that it is already seeing evidence that the changes in the industry have degraded safety, and that the commercial pressures will only be in the downward direction.

Safety and commercial interests are mutually exclusive concepts, and neither should be allowed to go to far in opposite directions like it is at the moment.

My concern is for the future of the industry at this time, as a less safe future might kill someone.

[Wizofoz]

Hi Keg,

I'll just climb off the ole' high horse here for a minute....

Possible that this chuck person is just an idiot troll, but he came across to me as an actual stuck up w****r, in which case your "glass houses" remark is most applicable!!

Obviously not suggesting it's universal. Some of my best friends are QF pilots (but I trust you'll have the good taste not to mention that to anyone!), but there still is an aura of "old school" arrogance bubbling below the surface with some, and the whole J* thing has brought it right out in a few!!

[30/30 Green Light]

I see that the ALAEA has jumped on the bandwagon again referring to the lowering of "maintenance standards".Pushback and despatch of an aircraft are not maintenance actions,so why try and link a ground handling accident with maintenance.As has been previously pointed out,there were apparently systemic faults which may have had a large influence on this occurence.LAME or no,it was probably going to happen one day because of those "holes". As a LAME,I would like to think that I wouldn't make the same mistake(s),but I am at least enough of a realist and experienced enough to admit that it can happen.The ALAEA is once again dispensing misinformation and "half-truths" to try and justify what is really an untenable position.As a group of supposedly intelligent and skilled tradesmen we need to be practising our skills where they are really needed,as has been previously stated,and not defending out-dated,redundant work practices.

Cheers all,

[FarCu]

Why isn't there a load of appologies from all those so quick to point the finger?

MAUSWARA
Probably a dozen or so of your old work mates at Jetstar now.
3 HOLER
Mauswara's former company has and still does opperate using 25 minute turnarounds at outports without engineering support (in F28's), but admittedly it is a Melanesian 25 minutes so there is definately no rush involved. However, they have very few incidents.

Of the dozen or so guys now at Jetstar, they were all competent Pilots, with most of them involved in training, several checkies and a Chief Pilot or Director of Flight Ops. Doesn't fit the picture that's being portrayed by several less than educated posters does it.

BIG JAN
Good to see you didn't lose your cool when replying to CHUCK MEGAPUTZ.

Last but not least, an Engineer from the Land of the Wrong White Crowd admitting to making an error, well done. US pilot blokes make errors as well. I vaguely remember my last error, the Kinder Garten teacher was most upset.:O

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Just because you assert a point chuck it doesnt mean its true. Scabs and rejects? I think we have heard it all from you now.

For someone who obviously " holds themself in high regard " as a " professional" you really stoop to new childish lows on a daily basis. Is this what constitutes being a professional airline pilot in this country?. Having worked o/s I can tell you that it is but a sheltered workshop that breeds your type of attitude like mould.

DM

[3 Holer]

Not too sure where you're coming from FarCu .

If you're implying I pointed the finger at anybody, I think you should carefully re-read my post again. If you read into it any "finger pointing" then I suggest your comprehension of the english language is as good as your spelling.

[E.P.]

Little child RTA. Ansett Australia was the WORLDS second safest airline until the end. You of course would have no idea who was and remains the safest........(TIP; it aint QF) :}

Also, Mark W. is CP at Pornstar, not Angus. I believe there is no doubt that either could humble you in an aircraft. :E

[Woomera]

Merely an observation chaps, but this thread has had nearly as many views and posts as the "NAS debate other opinions" thread.

Who said aviation in Australia was boring.:E

Just take it easy, in perspective and the shiny side up. :ok: we are all after all supposed to love aviation and our fellow aviators first, everything else comes second ?:} :cool:

Ernie Gann called it a "Band of Brothers";) Group hug. :\

[Watchdog]

Woomera - wise words and on the money.

DM - we won't be hearing from Chuckie for a while :ok:

E.P. - I have heard very good reports about MW & AS from their work @ KD.....have no doubt they would be an asset.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Dear Mr. Condascending E.P,

In answer to your rhetoric, AIR CANADA. (did I ever mention QF being the safest? No, but assumption seems your order of business)

[Wizofoz]

RTA,

At least we no longer need concern ourselves with the abhorent safety of Ansett...

No assumptions on what you said there mate.

Insulting, condEscending (aint spell checkers grand!!) and just plane WRONG.

Don't spout c***and then get all huffy when people take you up on it!

(And it's AbhorRent)

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

If we intend merely stooping to spelling, your error would be PLAINLY obvious!:ok:

Yes, I am sorry if I did offend AN pilots that never "went back". There are a LOT of FANTASTIC prior AN pilots.

Those that bent over and kissed Abele's arse deserve no apology.

[E.P.]

Dear little child RTA. Which airline has the esteemed privilege of your majestic services? :rolleyes:

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

There is no guessing you were one of Abele's boys, eh E.P.?

My information is totally irrelevant (hope I spelled that right).

Your opinion of me is totally meaningless. You have added NOTHING to this thread, and nor have I. You made your bed, now accept the fleas.

[HAMO]

RTA

Fail to see what your posts have got to do with the topic of this thread ???

Care to explain to all of us that havent got a clue what you are on about - second thoughts dont bother - this thread has had more than enough cr@p flung around!

[Wizofoz]

Yes, I am sorry if I did offend AN pilots that never "went back".

AARRR... Hidden agenda noted! Industrial sour grapes dressed up as saftey concerns!

Nice one...

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Hidden? I thought it was patently obvious from the get go!

:p

Counting down till I get banned. . .

:rolleyes:

[mauswara]

Farcu, Like 3 holer, I'm wondering where you're coming from with the apologies call.Yes indeed there are a dozen of my old work mates @ Jet*. All good blokes & good operators.My point is that ground contractors are pushing their grnd. handling staff too hard & damage is being done to A/c in the ensuing "Rush".In the past 10 yrs I've seen & heard of much damage caused by tugs,baggage trolleys,roll-up stairs & catering trucks etc.Add "Push Back UAV's to the list!!e.g. About 5 yrs ago, I parked @ PER International. Soon after I & the crew had departed the scene, the young guy driving the catering truck "cleaned up" the RH aileron, rendering the A/c u/s for a week while a new one was obtained from o/seas.