Imminent Hard Drive Failure!

[Cool_Hand]

For the past four days my PC has been behaving very strange. The Application in use will stop responding and about four seconds later the mouse stops working and the system just locks up, this happens with any application, word, excel, internet, games, anything. The only way to get the computer working again is a reset. On the restart sometimes it can't find my IDE devices and needs to be reset, I've gone into set up and all of the hard drives are there. I even do an auto detect to ensure it's not just resident info. Well, after the eigth crash yesterday I had a warning from DOS telling me that a hard drive failure is imminent and to do all the back ups etc.

About 10 months ago I had some form of virus from an email that basically stuffed my e-mail so I thought upgrading my OS through MS update would help over come the problem and that basically destroyed my system to the point where it wouldn't load windows. So I reformatted my hard drives and started from scratch.

I have been very weary about any e-mail that I receive so I don't think it is a virus but I can't rule that out. I did a thorough virus check and it found a trojan buried in _restore that it couldn't do anything about, could this be the cause?

I use PC-cillin for fire wall and virus checking, spy bot and ad aware to keep the spyware out.

I have not heard any strange noises from the case.

My questions are:

Do you believe the DOS message?
Could it be a virus?
Is three years a good life span for a hard drive?
The last time I reformatted (replaced the hard drive) I couldn't archive my e-mails, they all came up with errors when I tried to put them back on, is there another method outside of out look express where I can send my emails and address book to pick up later, or some other idea?
Any suggestions as I really don't want to have to install the whole computer again?

System:

I built it about three years ago,

Motherboard LV7TA (I think, can find out when I get home if it is needed)
AMD 2100
512 Mb (PC2700)
20 Gb C: drive (about four years old, and is the one about to fail)
4 Gb D: drive (about six years old)
Windows ME

if you want any more info please feel free to ask.

[Agent86]

Check out the CPU cooler fan to see if it is still going. Symptoms could be massive overheat of CPU.
Had that problem with father-in-laws 'puter..heatsink came off during transit and system would start then randomly freeze and not reboot. Leave for 5 mins and it would start again only to repeat the cycle.

The hard drive msg is probably a function of all the reboots/freezes

Re Outlook Express ..Do a google search on export or backup of OE. There are ways to do it, just make sure that the current version is the latest version (updating retains the data) before exporting.

Max

[stagger]

On the hardware side...

I'd expect a desktop hard drive to last quite a bit longer than three years. In my experience they tend to fail as soon as you get them or many years later.

If you've got your system up and running can you not just scan the disk for bad sectors?

In XP select My Computer, right-click the drive you want to scan then Properties > Tools > Check Now.

Opt for a thorough scan that scans for bad sectors.

If you've got bad sectors then you've got a hardware problem - in theory you can continue to use a drive with bad sectors but it's not wise. They tend to spread fairly rapidly.

In my experience if a hard drive doesn't suddenly fail completely - it usually only takes a few days from the onset of the first symptoms to complete failure. Frequently as the problem gets worse and bad sectors spread you hear more and more odd noises coming from the drive as it tries again and again to retrieve data from corrupt parts of the disk.

[Lost_luggage34]

Also worth opening the case and reseating the IDE cables.

They can sometimes work loose.

[seacue]

Some years ago I retired a computer because of a bad hard disk. It was essentially obsolete anyway.

Come the find out the real problem was that the cooling fan on the processor chip wan't working, so the machine would slow down, make errors and freeze after a short while. HD OK.

I have had three hard disk failures, all within the 3-year warranty period:
One Seagate many years ago.
The only two Western Digital drives I've bought.

Never had a failure with Maxtor even after quite a few years of use. Knock on wood.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Cool_Hand,

While reading your post the first thing that came to mind was heat issue as Agent86 mentioned.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. There is a chance that your OS is corrupted but my first guess is heat related with the CPU.

[newswatcher]

Cool_hand if following Lost_luggage34's advice, please earth yourself first!!

[Lost_luggage34]

Good point newswatcher.

Was half asleep when I posted - not quite up to usual (bad) standard !

But has worked for me a few times.

Yep - earthing is very important when poking about. Make sure you disconnect the mains lead, and touch the metal chassis with one hand before you touch anything else.

Better still wear an earth stap as I always do.

Talking about drive failures I have a question but will start another thread as it's masquerading itself slightly differently.

Cheers

[SoftTop]

On the subject of earth straps - make sure thet you use a PROPER anti-static wrist earthstrap and don't try to make one out of a gash bit of wire. That's a quick way to an early grave, and we don't want that!

"Proper" earth straps are high resistance and shouldn't lead to an electric shock risk. They allow the slow(ish) dissipation of many thousands of volts that can build up on your person as you scuff around the house in your nylon soled shoes whilst wearing your polyester vest with a wool top (ignore the vision!) - just think of the zap you might occassionaly get when you slide in and out of a car, you don't want to do that to your electronic stuff.

Sorry if we're into "granny sucking eggs" territory.

:8

ST

[Cool_Hand]

Thanks for the help so far, I've looked at the cooling fans and they seem to be working, I have one on the processor and one on the side of the case (as well as the one for the power supply). I've been into set up and my CPU is running at c.56C (fan running at c.5100RPM) and my motherboard is at c.46C. Looking at the manual setting for temperature shut down these don't seem high but I don't know what temperatures are considered high. I also checked that the graphics card fan is in operation and it's also blowing air. Is there a preferred direction of air movement? For example the one on the side of the case seems to be blowing the air out of the case. If the CPU fan is also blowing air onto the processor is it not going to be of reduced effectiveness as there will probably be reduced mass air flow. I don't know, I'm just grabbing at straws.
At the moment I have one side panel removed and a desk fan blowing into it. Which is a very temporary measure, the fan is for me.

I did try a thorough disk scan but the system died half way through, I'll try again tonight. I did manage to clear out the _restore directory though and the trojan is gone.

The computer was still hanging last night prior to the desk fan and I haven't run the machine for long enough to see whether this has solved the problems. I'll see tonight.

If anyone has any other suggestions or answers to the above questions any answer is appreciated.

Regards,

Cool_Hand

My power supply is 350W
and my graphics card is an ATI 9500/9700 128Mb (with cooling fan)

[Lost_luggage34]

The temperatures you have quoted are within range I would say.

Have you got any diagnostic software to give you the hard drive temperatures ?

I am now thinking down the PSU route - 350watt sounds a little under rated. (Hurriedly tries to find the advice Richard gave me re. PSUs ages ago which was spot on! )

Doesn't explain the sudden appearance of the problem though.

Interesting one.

When you said it died during the disk scan - what did the PC do ?

Blue screen ? Shut itself down ? Froze ?

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Cool_Hand,

Are you running a Dual CPU mobo or is what you are calling the second CPU the Mobo's Northbridge? (The Northbridge will have a much smaller heatsink than the CPU and could either be with or without a small fan on it.)

It does sound like the room you have your computer in gets a little warm. Personally I do not like seeing the Mobo temps above 35C. It could be that the temps inside your case are getting a little high. As for your fans, they are all blowing in the correct direction from your description.

I would try keeping the side of the case open and pointing that desk fan (room fan would be better) at the area between the CPU and Vid Card.

If your Vid Card Driver reads:

ATI 9500/9700 128Mb

Then it sounds like you have a generic Driver installed. I would install the latest Catalyst Driver from:

Catalyst Driver Downloads (http://www.ati.com/support/driver.html)

I would also look for the latest Drivers for all your hardware.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. Lost_luggage34 here is the link for the Power Supply Calculator (http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/) :ok:

[matkat]

This sounds like an imminent hard drive failure,make sure all your files are backed up onto a disc before it"s to late,I had exactly the same problem on a 13 month old computer and lost everything(I know do as I say not as I do)you have been warned.
Matkat:{

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Matkat,

Even if it is not an "imminent hard drive failure" you should always backup, as a part of your daily routine, any data you cannot afford to lose. ;)

Take Care,

Richard

[Cool_Hand]

Richard

It's a single CPU system, the two temps I quoted were CPU and motherboard. The room is normally fine but during the warm spell we had I bought a fan to follow me around the house.
I'll upgarde the drivers as soon as I can and see if that helps.

Lost Luggage

That is a useful power supply calculator, (thanks Richard) it suggests a power supply in the region of 355W. So it's a close shave.
During the disk scan it froze.
Unfortunately I don't have any hard drive diagnostic software if anyone could suggest some I would be grateful

TCS

I've not added any hardware for quite some time now. The only software upgrades I have performed is the virus checker, that could be a possiblility. Unfortunately I have never managed to get a system restore to work, it nearly completes then proceeds to tell me it failed. I'll see if I can get to before the virus update.

In the main I've been quite happy with ME, not really wanted to bother with XP.

Thanks to all so far, all suggestions are very welcome,

I'm in the process of gleaning off all important data.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Cool_Hand,

See if the open case and room fan works or not first.

I had misread your post earlier. For some reason I thought you were thinking you have two CPUs.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. Warning, once you go to WinXP, you will NOT go back to Win9X. ;)

[Mac the Knife]

"The hard drive msg is probably a function of all the reboots/freezes"

Agree. Rather than a true-blue indication of imminent failure.

[Cool_Hand]

Managed to use the computer last night, not for extended periods though, without a crash/freeze/lockup.

The case is still open and the room fan is blowing merrily into the case. One thing I did do last night, as I started to get suspicious after the mention of software changes, is uninstalled my virus protection and reinstall to the prior to update version, the system restore didn't work again. I'll see how things go tonight.

When I started up the system last night, the CPU was c.46C and the system temp (I noticed last night it's not the motherboard temp) was c.36C. Apparently the machine had been used periodically through the day by the missus.

Thanks to everyone for their continued help, if anyone has any other thoughts it would be great to hear them, and I'll keep you posted for the next couple of days.

Jason.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

If you are not hearing any clicking sounds from the hard drive, any number of things could be going wrong with your system other than the hard drive.

I am still not convinced that the hard drive is the problem. With the other problems you have listed, I would think about either upgrading to WinXP or doing a fresh install of WinME.

Take Care,

Richard

[Memetic]

Hi Jason,

Have you tired booting the PC from a CD or Floppy and running system and disk checks having booted that way?

It might just throw a bit of light on things by taking booting off of a "suspect" the drive out of the equation.

I can burn and post you a boot CD (Knoppix, FreeDos etc.) if you need one.

Regards

Memetic


P.S. If Knoppix sounds a bit alien take a look at this http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-knopx.html

It's why I carry a Knoppix disk in the laptop drive!

[Cool_Hand]

Some good suggestions there, I'll give them a try tonight. I agree with you Richard that I thought the hard drive would make more noises if it was about to give up the ghost.

Unfortunately I've just been told that the thing froze again, so hopefully some of the suggestions may yield a solution. (Note the slow distancing of it from myself now)

The suggestion about upgrading to XP seems that it may be valid, I've found an OEM version for £61 (inc VAT) but I can't find much information about how it's better or what it improves upon, so,

What's so special about XP?
Does it do much more than ME?
It seems to need a more powerful system to operate wouldn't that just use more of my resources and slow down my applications?
Most new viruses seem to be written to work in XP, would I not be opening myself up to attack?
Does it make applications more efficient?

Cheers.

[newswatcher]

Memetic says Have you tired booting the PC from a CD or Floppy I think Cool_Hand is exhausted from doing this!:p :p

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

It is hard to list all the improvements which are in WinXP vs WinME. You will find that WinXP runs on the WinNT Kernel vs the Win9X Kernel of WinME. WinXP is more stable and robust than WinME.

All Win9X support is being dropped and any new hardware and software is coming out specifically for WinXP with little to no testing with Win9X.

As for viruses, there are just as many Win9X viruses out there as WinXP viruses. The only difference is Microsoft still supports WinXP and puts patches out for it regularly.

Take Care,

Richard

[SoftTop]

Thought that winXP ran on the Win2k kernel, which is why a lot of the win2k drivers, DLLs etc. work on XP.

:confused:

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

SoftTop,

I use Win9X as a generic term for Win95a, Win95b, Win98, Win98SE, WinME and WinNT as a generic term for WinNT, Win2k, WinXP, Win2k3, since all the Win9X OS's originated from the original Win9X Kernel and WinNT OS's originated from the original WinNT Kernel.

Take Care,

Richard

[SoftTop]

TCS, Naples,

thanks for that guys.

I suppose it's all down to semantics. My simple picture of the Windows(r) world has now been enriched and I should, now, be able do even better in those pub quizzes I keep losing! :ok:

Regards

ST

I had one of my HDDs fail about a month ago. It started making repetitive clicking noises during boot up although I did manage to access the data held on it (luckily it was data I could afford to lose - without too many tears - and not the master disk). Then it died completely, although still repetitive clicking, and wouldn\'t allow access to data at all. So, does that sound like damaged platters or failing electronics?

Next question is, has anyone managed to recover data from a knackered disk by buying the same model and swapping the electronics? I reckon that the HDD is OK mechanically - not sure about surface of platters - and that it\'s the hardware that\'s died. I\'m willing to give that a go if there\'s a warm feeling about the process.

ST

[Agent86]

ST

Tried that once for a mate with no success

Seems you have to have

Same make (obvious)
Same size
Same Version (that was the hard bit)

and a small Torx driver (also good for pulling mobile phones apart after inadvertant dunking :})

Got to the stage where HD was recognised and platters spun up but no go.

Next stage was to physically transfer the platters but I chickened out about then :O

It is always worth a try if you need the data

If you REALLY need the data there are commercial companies that do recover data but it aint cheap !

Max

[newswatcher]

From Sotftop's experience, perhaps a timely reminder to repeat the earlier advice of matkat and "Naples", if your data is important, then make sure you take regular backups (as well as system recovery disk(s)!). With the price of hard disks these days, it is probably cheaper to invest in and use a reliable backup process, and throw your hard disk away at the first sign of permanent problems!

[englishal]

ME is prone to such behaviour.

Boot up go to START > RUN > msconfig

go to the START UP tab and remove all check marks by programs that load on startup, then re-boot and see what happens. I had an ME computer the other day doing exactly what you describe and this sorted it out. If all seems well, go back to MSCONFIG and just emable what you need (virus scanner etc) and see what happens.

On the IDE devices, rather than use Cable Select, set them to actual MASTER and SLAVE. Sometimes when CS is selected it can take ages, and hang, when detecting IDE devices.

EA

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Max,

Do not transfer the platters. If you want to get data off a dead drive, get an identical drive and transfer the Circuit Board off the back to the dead drive. Most of the time, this will bring the drive back to life. If that does not do it, then transfer the heads. (Very tricky operation and can easily damage both drives.)

Take Care,

Richard

[Cool_Hand]

Where do I start???

The computer is still freezing even with the fan. I tried the msconfig tip from EnglishAL and basically with any of the startup files unchecked the system gets to the point of about to load windows and then turns itself off. Last night I thought, stuff it all, and went for a re install of ME over my existing installation. The computer froze somewhere in the middle of updating the file system. The computer is somewhere in the region of undead at the moment, sometimes freezes on starting othertimes it seems to be trying to update files, and even sometimes boots from the CD and tries to continue the install. I'm now thinking of getting some pieces of information of the hard drive that don't normally get backed up (ISP connection phone number etc.) and reformat if I can't get a reinstall to work tonight.

I guess my next question is should I buy a new hard drive and work from that or trust that my current one isn't on it's last legs and continue to use it?

I tought that if I get a new one I can make my current drive D: do a fresh install on C: (new drive) then maybe still access D: and transfer across all I can and want. Will this just increase the chance of transferring the problem over?

TCS, I'm afraid I've not managed to find my current BIOS version yet (trying to do too many things both on the computer and around the house). Do you think it might be worth trying to see if there are any updates?

Memetic, Knoppix sounds like it could be very useful. I'll be in touch.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and help guys.

Jason.

One other thing, if/when I reinstall is there a preferred order that I should reinstall all my hardware and software?
Graphics card, motherboard, virus checker, modem, printer, etc.

[englishal]

You could try backing up your data (boot from floppy and copy files to the D drive for instance), then a fresh install of ME including formatting the drive. Normally a re-install over the top doesn't sort out problems like yours, but a completely fresh install will. You could do a "quick" format, which will essentially erase the data.

If the system still crashes after the hard disk has been formatted (ie during or after windows install) you probably have a hardware problem, and my guess would be the memory. You could try removing it, and re-inserting and see if it makes any difference, or try a different memory slot, or if you can get you hands on some spare memory, try that. Hard disk errors normally manifest themselves in strange file names (ie a file called pic.jpg might show up as $%%$3pic.jpg or something), bad sectors reported by Windows / Scandisk etc. If you hard disk really is bad, Windows may not install at all, not even getting past the "checking your hardware (or whatever bit it is)" part.

If you know.....is your hard disk serial ATA or a standard IDE device? Sometimes the SATA if not corectly configured in the Bios could cause symptoms such as yours. Also do you get any Windows "blue screen of death" STOP type errors? If you do, write down the msg and code (ie 0x000035353) as they can often point to what is causing the problem.

EA

In reply to your last part:

Motherboard drivers,
Graphics card,
modem,
printer,
virus checker,

Then if you have broadband, do a Windows update.

[Memetic]

That sounds a bit grim.

If you do get to the format and reinstall stage it may be worth looking for a low level format tool from the drive manufacturer.

I have an IBM drive that windows consistently refused to boot from and would not accept a reinstall, even after a format using the supploied windows tools. I removed it, replaced it and moved on. Tinkering with it a month or so later I tried the diagnostics tools from the IBM site. It highlighted problems and recommended a low level format, hours of writing zeros later the drive was fine and it has worked ever since.

[Cool_Hand]

As far as I'm aware the harddrive is a standard IDE device. I only started getting the blue screen of death after the botched windows install.

I'm tempted to go for the deepest level of format I can find, I would rather be positive that the drive is completely fresh. As I'll always be wondering after the install whether any crash is due to not cleaning the drive thoroughly.

Would a memory check establish any problems with the memory or would I have to do the swapping around?

Thanks guys, I'll let you know how things go.


J.

I've just been looking at some hard drives, out of curiousity does a larger cache make a significant diference, most have a 2Mb cache but I've seen some with 8Mb. Does it really increase performance that much?

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

If you think the Hard Drive is failing, it would not hurt to buy a new one for a fresh install. The 80Gb Western Digital (WD800JB) is a very good drive that would give your computer good performance and is not every expensive. (About $65.00 in the U.S.)

If the computer locks up while installing on the new Hard Drive then we know the problem was probably not your old drive. ;)

With your current Hard Drive, if you want to wipe it. I suggest you use FDisk to delete the Drive's Partitions and the make a new Partition, then use Format to format the drive.

Take Care,

Richard

[englishal]

You can get low level diagnostic software written in machine code. You boot from the floppy and run a series of burn-in tests which thoroughly test the hardware outside of the windows environment. If you cycle the memory enough times eventually intermittent errors will show up in the tests. Likewise the hard disk will show any errors. (http://www.uxd.com/qtpro.shtml).

BUT memory faults are bloody difficult to diagnose. My gut feeling is that if you system has been running ok un touched, then the memory is probably ok. What exactly did the DOS hard disk failure warning actually say? It could be the disk is on the way out.........

Before you go ahead and fork out money on new hardware, I'd stick the windows disk in, boot from the CD and re-install Windows. When it asks which partition choose your existing C drive, and format as a normal format. Any errors on the drive will show up, and all data will be removed. Once windows has installed, if your problems are gone, then its a Windows thing (ME is terrible for symptoms like yours).

The WD 80GB hard disks, 7200RPM, 8MB cache run about £45 in the UK and are excellent, I use them all the time.

Good luck!;)

[Cool_Hand]

EnglishAl

The DOS warning appeared just after the searching IDE devices and said:

Hard drive failure is imminent, recommend back up all data.

I must say I am still dubious that it is the hard drive, just before I buy a new drive I'll see if I can disconnect C: and install windows on D:, then run all of the diagnostics suggested above to thoroughly check both hard drives and memory etc.

Cheers,

J.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

How many Hard Drives do you have in your computer? Do give us the specs on each. (Make and Model would really help along with which drive has the OS in it.)

If you have more than one drive, it could be your secondary drive failing, etc.

Take Care,

Richard

[Cool_Hand]

I have just the 2, a 20Gb one (C: ) and a 4Gb one (D: ) I'll have a look at all of the data, makes, models etc. tonight and if I can get some form of vaguely working machine I'll post the information tonight otherwise I'll post tomorrow.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

Since you have a pair of old drives, then lets stop messing around, get a Western Digital WD800JB Hard Drive and do a fresh install of WinME. (Norton Ghost is another option if you do not want to do a fresh install.)

Windows is all about Disk Access, and the faster the drive, the better the performance of Windows.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. I just went back to your original post which had your specs listed. If you wanted, you could easily upgrade to WinXP if you install the WD800JB.

[Cool_Hand]

The new hard drive is on order.

Just as an update, of which I'm not sure what to think now. I'm begining to think it may be a motherboard problem.

Last night I had some time to try and play with the thing, and I must say that I'm about ready to stick a boot right through the thing (I know it won't do any good and that is the only reason I haven't done it).

For some reason I can't get a DOS prompt at start up, it is usually an option after selecting F8, but no, I only get the options for normal, logged, safe and step by step. The computer is locked in some form of vicious cycle, windows has tried to install and has now got to the point where it is checking the onboard hardware (last step before completion and it gets to 15 minutes remaining and the system still locks (freezes) then it boots up and goes back into the checking for hardware stage of windows install. I've tried putting a boot disk in but that just gets to the same place. Safe mode is useless as the computer hasn't found all of my hardware yet and I've never really found it any use anyway.

During all of the attempts to install windows again I had removed a stick of memory which seemed to help, but then the problems continued, so I put it back in a different slot and there is no real change (the memory I bought from the same place that I bought the computer from and installed it back in December (PC2700, 256Mb). I removed my TV card as it doesn't get much use. Is it possible that the hard drive is still causing the problem? or is it seeming like some other component is at fault?

Does anyone know how I can get the DOS prompt? For the moment I'm following through with the hard drive and after that I hope it'll be fine, but any other thoughts for me to think about for the future? (Outside of changing to XP, reading up on the XP thread I can't really justify spending that sort of money on the full version over the OEM, maybe a future purchase though)

Cheers and thanks again for the continued help,

Regards,

J.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

When installing your OS, try with a Bare Bones System:

Mobo
CPU
RAM
HD
Floppy
Optical Drive
Keyboard
Mouse
Monitor

We can add any hardware later. Tell me about your AthlonXP 2100+. What heatsink and Thermal Grease did you use when you mounted it.

Also make sure your heatsink is on properly.

http://www.naples-air-center.com/DAoC/heatsink.jpg

Take Care,

Richard

[englishal]

I just had a computer yesterday which was a bitch. Similar symptoms to yours, got stuck in a re-boot cycle, the guy who owned it reported that the boot time had got longer and longer until it wouldn't boot at all. Tried repairing the MBR, the boot sector and everything. Windows reported the partition as "unknown", although I could still access some of the data by booting from a Read NTFS floppy (www.ntfs.com I think).

I tried to re-partition the hard drive, format and install winXP, but the install wouldn't complete. After 3 hrs of formatting the hd, it got to 17% and then gave up. FDISK failed on the "checking drive integrity" part......

Turned out to be the hard disk. A new one fixed it.

EA

[Cool_Hand]

EnglishAl that's encouraging to know, when I get home tonight hopefully I can get it sorted.

Richard, that sounds like good advice, I'll clean the machine up then try from scratch after checking the integrity inside the box. The motherboard was bought with the processor and heatsink and cooling fan pre installed, I bought them as a combo figuring I didn't know how best to match motherboard and processor and the company would know better. I'll give it a thorough check over tonight.

Thanks all, J.

[Memetic]

Jason,

As the lid is off, go for the minimum system approach that Richard suggests. But before an reinstall try low level formatting the drive with tools from the drive manufacturer (I can't remember who your drive was from but post make and model for it and i'll have a look for the tools for you.) then going for a windows re install.

At least if you can get something up and running you will be confident that it is not a MoBo problem before unpacking the new drive.

With regards to doing that minum rebuild you could do it in stages, but it is a lot more work. Depends what you have to boot from e.g. cd / floppy but build a bit, boot a bit build a bit and so on would let you only add components to a known good base and lets you have more of a chance of spotting the problem.

Assuming you have a CD you can boot form start with just:

Mobo/CPU (Set the BIOS to boot from the optical drive)
RAM
Optical Drive
Keyboard
Monitor

If it boots e.g to a DOS prompt, run memory checks, check CPU temp. and performance.

Then add the HDD, check in the BIOS that the drive reports the right size etc.

Then see if the system boots and you can change to the HDD.

If that works i'd format the drive at that point but not put windows on it.

Then add everything else the floppy drive, mouse, tv-card etc. You could add them all one by one before the reinstall if you spot no problems at all before this stage, but i'd be surprised if any of them are causing the problem.

Then when your new drive arrives, pop it in and make that the main drive!

Memetic

[Memetic]

Check your PM's :)

[Cool_Hand]

Now,

I have installed the new hard drive, took a bit of time, but it all installed with no major dramas, except the occaisional crash during all of the detection cycles when windows has loaded and then proceeds to change and load drivers. The crashes were just immediate shut downs, then the machine would sometimes hang during the boot cycle or immediately switch off.

When using it last night (tentatively) the screen froze, and the system needed rebooting, it did this twice before I removed myself from the room. If I have time tonight I'll remove the other stick of memory (as per my post a couple of days ago, for some reason it never occurred to me that the original stick of memory could fail, blinded by frustration?) to see whether that is the problem, after that I only have my graphics card left before I can only blame the motherboard.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and help, if anyone has any other suggestions/guidance it will still be accepted gratefully.

Cheers,

J.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Jason,

It sounds as we feared. There is something wrong with some other hardware in your comp. I would start bare bones and add hardware back one piece at a time till your computer starts locking up.

Take Care,

Richard