Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)

[JessTheDog]

Front page splash on one of the red-tops, apparently lifted from RAF News, in which their sqn boss says their future is "insecure".

[London Jets]

I saw an article in the Express today saying that due to defence budget cuts the Red Arrows may have to cease flying perminantly, I thought they were part of the country's defence (in times of crisis/war)? Is this a case of the pen pushers at No10 going to far? Has Tony Blair gone too far? What is the real story behind this?

I can't imagine airshows without them and it would be very sad not to see them anymore, another thing that is recognised as being British, just going........

LJ

[T_Handle]

been like that for many years!!!!!

Same ugly question raised its head when I held with them 10 yrs ago!

Cut the 9 ship reduce to 7 or 5...... all been posed before.

Just a matter of time in this shrinking penny-pinching Air Farce I suppose.

T:uhoh:

[TURIN]

I think you have answered this one yourself by admitting the source of this gem is from the (Daily) Express!:ugh:

If at appears in tomorrows Daily Liar...sorry, Mail, then you just know it's B****cks!

Still, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.:mad:

[akerosid]

Most unlikely, I have to say. You must remember, however, that the Mail and Express tend to take an anti-Blair line and obviously, a headline like that sells papers.

A move like that, even if "cost saving" would be a disaster for a government; it's an excellent morale booster for the RAF as well as a flag flier for the country; were the government to ground them, the electoral damage would be very considerable, as well as being a gift to other parties.

[hobie]

its not like me to agree with you akerosid!!! ..... but you certainly have that one spot on :p :p :p

[althenick]

I always thought that the red Arrows got some of thier funding from Public appearences and corporate backing. If Not then could the RAF explore those avenues?

[fireflybob]

Mind you - I suppose they could privatise the Red Arrows?

[whatunion]

branson isnt bound to buy them, they are in virgin colours arnt they?

[Semaphore Sam]

I will obviously take flak for this, but all these flying groups are so much waste of resources. The RAF, USAF & USN are there to fight wars; military bands, groups such as Red Arrows, T'Birds, Blue Thingys, etc, take money needed to wage effective war, and put them into bread and circuses. Too bad the mx, fuel, and salary resources hadn't been spent instead on providing body armour for those poor unfortunates killed in Southern Iraq; if the money was there, there is where it properly should have been spent, AND NOWHERE ELSE! For a change, I agree with Blair. Sam

[normal_nigel]

Yeah

Who cares?

Less egos for us to put up with when they join the real world.

NN

[Brakes...beer]

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

Same applies to countries. Who wants to live in Semaphore Sam's soulless nation?

[BEagle]

Last time such a thing was proposed, a senior Air Wheel was summoned to Number 10 and given a sound handbagging by Maggie - no tea, no biscuits. Allegedly....

Amusing to hear the Niggle talking about egos.....

[LightTwin Driver]

He does have a point though.

Q: How do you know when an ex Arrows pilot is sitting in the right hand seat ?

A: He'll tell you within 30 seconds of check-in.


http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-015.gif

[TonyR]

Seeing the "Reds" was one of the reasons I wanted to fly, I had the pleasure at Easter of watching with my 15 year old son from the tower when they returned to Cyprus to complete pre-season trainning.

Having met quite a few of the pilots over the years I think you will find there are less "egos" to deal with than some who never quite made the grade.

What the hell is wrong with this country, having something to take pride in seems to piss some people off.

I say "hands of the Reds Tony B"

Tony R

[nosefirsteverytime]

Come on, do you really think that Tony would dare take the Red Arrows, one of the best recruiting tools of any service, out of commission? Come on lads, he's not that crazy, is he?

[qwertyuiop]

A few years ago, loosing the Royal yacht would have been hard to believe. Accountants can't see the value unless it has an actual value. I think they will be badly missed.

[hobie]

quote ....

"military bands, groups such as Red Arrows, T'Birds, Blue Thingys, etc, take money needed to wage effective war"

just imagine how much more warfare could be financed if all the Bands, display teams etc etc were eliminated

oh, and don't forget to shoot all the horses - maybe you could get rid of the royal family as well ...... another few millions for more war!!!!

all this war is such fun isn't it!!!!

xxx help us

(clarification for opsbloke - as far as I'm concerned my vote is that the horses, bandsmen and red arrows can go on for ever !!! :ok: :ok: :ok: )

[Sleeve Wing]

'spose, after last Friday, we shouldn't really keep anything that makes the French and Germans look mediocre ?

Sleeve.

[speedbird_heavy]

I was under the impression that the Red Arrows are self funded. ie they dont take cash from the defence budget. They are sponsored by various companies and any overseas tour is funded by that country. A quote from the red arrows website:


How much does the team cost to operate?

There is no meaningful answer to this question. The RAF already has the pilots and aircraft so they really cost nothing. The only real saving that could be made by not having the Red Arrows would be the cost of the fuel they use but that is insignificant when set against the advantages accruing from the Team's appearances.

The additional costs of sending The Red Arrows on overseas tours such as the United Arab Emirates and Malaysia in the autumn of 1997 and 1999 and Canada in 2002 were entirely borne by British companies. The Ministry of Defence takes the view that British tax-payers should not bear the cost of these overseas tours. However it is happy for The Red Arrows to demonstrate the “Best of British” overseas when the companies that stand to benefit are willing to pay the bills.


So there you have it. They will always be with us.

[Quod Boy]

What a load of bol*loZks,semaphore and Nige.

The Arrows are a supreme example of what the services can offer,be it RAF,RN,Army,USN,USAF etc,its a great show,inspirational,and very slick.I joined,flew fast jets,QWI,but,ejected,now civvy,happy enough,no regrets,no axe to grind.

I was never a Red,but I would have loved to have had the chance,to see,hear,and inspire,new aviators,a small price,in a HUGE budget.

Madness,to stop it.Political correctness?

World famous,to stop it would be supreme folly,I dont think TB is quite that dim.

QB

[keepitlit]

Sorry but old aircraft,similar year on year,id rather see my tax money being spent on something a bit more productive than a world tour of freebees to promote a decaying underfunded socalled airforce.
This is not a jibe at the RAF flying community but I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education,and if you want to see the display,buy the video.

Rgds K.I.L.:ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Actually happened in Oz albeit a looong time ago. The RAAF formation team at the time (the "Telstars") were disbanded in April 1968.
The "Roulettes" were formed two years later and remain operational today.

[Ignition Override]

We just returned last night from an interesting vacation in England, having noticed several signs to bases, such as RAF Fairford. Even went twice by the base near Stonehenge which is the Test Pilot School (?). Had about three old orange/red F-4s parked near the grass-covered bunkers. While driving from Sports Park (near Cotswolds) to Bath, saw 1011s at RAF ####.

Hope the Arrows survive in the long-term.:ok: It is so rewarding to drive again on the right side of the road:D .

[FJJP]

Event organisers pay MOD for EVERY military aircraft that appears in their show, including statics. That also includes military shows. Wadington pays a fortune out of gate money for their aircraft, including THEIR OWN!!! [E3D & Nimrod R1].

That means a lot less money for military charities of course...

[Mark Lewis]

And guess which article featured in the middle of the Daily Mail today?

Yup, you guessed it :}

[Pirate]

The point to consider, surely, is that today's RAF is frighteningly small in comparison to the task it has to support, in common with the Royal Navy and the army. To suggest that the Red Arrows is an operational unit in waiting is purest sophism so the essential question is - could an extra combat squadron be raised if the Arrows were disbanded? If the answer is yes, then they should go, much as it pains me to say it.

[MOR]

In my years flying in the UK I have had two captains and one F/O in my crew, who had been Red Arrows. Contrary to what some seem to think, in every case, I had to prise this information out of them and never experienced any arrogance, self-aggrandisement or amused tolerance on their part. They were professionals to the core. One of them used to tell me that he could train anybody to be a Red Arrow, it was purely a matter of practice (I didn't believe him).

I generally have no time for the military, I have seen too many arrogant idiots who couldn't let go of their boyhood. They often tell you how good they are, but then can't explain why all their skill is being employed in flying a smallish turboprop, after many years in a company that flies mainly jets. Anyway, thought I would mention the contents of the first paragraph, to even the score slightly.

And to those who think this could be an election issue - dream on. 99% of the electorate couldn't care less. The only ones that will care are the RAF and the relatively tiny number of air show devotees. The idea that their demise could affect an election is a powerful demonstration of how far removed from reality some aviation enthusiasts really are.

It reminds me of the campaign to save the Vulcan.

I doubt that they are an effective recruiting tool.

They are, however, a symbol of excellence in a drab and dreary world, and, if for that reason only, should be retained.

[Rider of the Purple Sage]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments posted on this subject, from both sides of ther argument.
However, take a moment to consider.

1. Article appears suggesting abolishment of the Red Arrows.

2. More newspapers get the story - it becomes a headline.

3. Step forward Blair.

" There has never been any intention of abolishing the Red Arrows. This is precisely the sort of scaremongering dreamed up by tabloid editors in company with Michael Howard........."

3. Blair achieves a win/win, he points out the zero cost of the team against their huge contribution to overseas 'investment' in our country. He gets positive publicity and some brownie points from those who believe he has 'changed his mind' and even more brownie points from those who supported him anyway, but enjoyed airshowsand are now reassured that no money is being wasted which could otherwise be 'invested' in more bureaucracy forthe Public Services.

4. Now put this technique in the context of the European Constitution, one has to admire the b###ard. One can see how all the Franco/German/Brit squabbling is purely designed for soundbites on the news. They all look macho, they are all seen to be patriotic, they are all seen to have secured a good deal for their voters.....in fact the original confidential deal is the one that has happened, and they have all played their parts to perfection.

5. To conclude, :} one can see how most pilots are generally far too honest and straightforward to succeed in management jobs. We tend to believe what people say, because we tell the factual truth most of our lives - the job demands it. We tend to believe what we read (well, mostly, lol :O ) because most of our professional reading is factual and hard data copy. We always give management another chance - usually - even though we believe the bat will be shoved in further. When it comes to dealing with politicians, we are babes in arms.
I won't go on in depth, but for anyone really interested, take a look at the EASA web site, and read their intentions carefully. The proposed adjustments to the FTL scheme are the thinnest of thin edges of the wedge!

Oh - and watch for Blair's statement on the Arrows - you heard it here first!!:ok:

[Nineiron]

Keepitlit
"I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education"

Surely you don't think the British companies that presently finance the Arrows' tours are going to divert their contributions to social needs? They support the Arrows because they are in business, no other reason. It is the taxes derived from increased business activity that pays for health and education.

[Digitalis]

We just returned last night from an interesting vacation in England, having noticed several signs to bases, such as RAF Fairford. Even went twice by the base near Stonehenge which is the Test Pilot School (?). Had about three old orange/red F-4s parked near the grass-covered bunkers. While driving from Sports Park (near Cotswolds) to Bath, saw 1011s at RAF ####.

Ignition, there's no need to be so secretive! The Empire Test Pilots' School is at RAF Boscombe Down (soon, apparently, to become a tanker base), and the L1011 Tristars (accompanied by VC10s) are at RAF Brize Norton.I will obviously take flak for this, but all these flying groups are so much waste of resources. The RAF, USAF & USN are there to fight wars; military bands, groups such as Red Arrows, T'Birds, Blue Thingys, etc, take money needed to wage effective war, and put them into bread and circuses

Sam, while we're at it, let's close all bars, sports facilities, cinemas, theatres, non-essential eating facilities, and anything else in the military that's not material to the serious business of making war, shall we? After all, we can't have the troops doing things like enjoying themselves (causing wasted killing time) or having pride in their professionalism, equipment and abilities, which would be counter to the robotic killing tendencies required in your Total Killing Machine. Ban anything and anyone that doesn't directly contribute to the lethality of the armed services, that's the way ahead.

Good chap.

:hmm:

[Mad_Mark]

MOR...

I generally have no time for the military

I find it strange then that you 'have time' to read a military forum :confused:

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[waivar]

Scrap the government and let the military run the country more like!! ;)

[Lou Scannon]

Unlike some of the contributors I have had some first hand experience of the Red Arrows starting back in 1970.

They were around the place when I was on the CFS course and I noticed then the somewhat arrogant and sneering attitude that many of the CFS staff had towards the team.

I then got to know another bunch when I was one of their support team for the odd trip around Europe when they used a C130 for the equipment and the ground crew.

Finally, I knew or flew with several ex-arrows in civilian aviation when we had both left the Services.

I found them to be a great bunch of blokes who were an unfailingly good source of PR for the Service and great company off duty. I have seen their kindness and patience to the public and the way in which they insisted on the groundcrew and support crew being included in any social events. None of them seemed to believe that they were God's gift to aviation and subsequently many proved to be mere mortals in other forms of flying.

They were however brilliant at putting the RAF into the face of Joe Public and I would be sad to see them closed down by a Government who specialise in making demands on the services that they then fail to back up with rescources.

[opsbloke]

hobie,
Bandsmen are medics in infantry units, they do a great job of it too!

[Letsby Avenue]

hmmm... The great Royal debate. Do we shoot them or hang them?

[steamchicken]

I predict that, if it becomes necessary to close the Arrows, there will be a howling jingo campaign by tabloids and spotters, and the axe will fall on something useful instead. As usual, we will choose flagwaving and symbols over concrete interest.

[pr00ne]

Letsby Av,

Hhmmmm................waste bullets or rope? Well, rope has to be cheaper so I'd opt for that, or we could keep them as a Royal Family, ruling by divine right and God's representatives on earth, and just not give them one single penny of public money.



..........RAF Boscombe Down? Don't think it's ever been that, MOD(PE) for ages and now Qinetiq, a commercial outfit. ETPS, BTW, are also a part of Qinetiq.

[lightningmate]

The correct title is:

MOD Boscombe Down and much of the activity at Boscombe is managed (sic) by QinetiQ.

lm

[hobie]

clarification for opsbloke - as far as I'm concerned my vote is that the horses, bandsmen and red arrows can go on for ever !!!)

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[rivetjoint]

The Red Arrows are certainly the public face of the RAF to the general public but just what value they bring I'm not sure I could say, as one of the public. I'm sure if the Red Arrows did get chopped then the tabloids would be full of stories about money being wasted on elementary Thai cooking lessons for single mothers or whatever the latest PC need for money is.

Just a thought, what would be the outcome if the Red Arrows annual budget got put into the BBMF pot instead?

[MOR]

Mad_Mark

I find it strange then that you 'have time' to read a military forum

Silly boy. When I posted, this thread was residing on Rumour and News. I don't read the military forums. I don't wear camo gear, ponce about in a surplus RAF flightsuit, or use ex-forces kit bags either.

Silly boy.

:E

[seafuryfan]

A couple of points:

I proposed some years ago (via the RAF News letters page) that the Reds ought to trade their Hawks for Tucanos. Ever seen what the Continentals can do with their PC-6/9 display teams? Nice. Turbo-props may please the bean counters, but would still show off piloting skills/RAF. Sure, BAe Systems would lose a marketing tool, but were contracts ever really decided by an air display? Back-handers more like! :rolleyes: Not realistic perhaps, if the Brits have to 'compete' with the other jet teams.

I don't think the spotter brigade (speaking as a lapsed spotter) would miss their demise - it's the family (including tax-paying Mum & Dad) on their day out who would be the poorer.

[matkat]

oh, and don't forget to shoot all the horses - maybe you could get rid of the royal family as well ...... another few millions for more war!!!!
Keep the Horses,but get rid of the Royal family they are passed their sell by Date.

[Nineiron]

Encouraging news tonight, in that a group of stalwarts in a Hertfordshire pub have got together to buy the Queen ( and Commonwealth) a new yacht. Maybe this is the future for the Arrows? Dig deep chaps and we could buy her a whole new Air Force - run on low-cost lines of course.

[soddim]

I remember being doubtful about the value of the Reds and in the crowd at an airshow while they were performing yawning and waiting for something more nostalgic when most of the crowd broke out in spontaneous applause and one chap said "Makes me proud to be British". Doubt removed.

[beamer]

With the best will in the world, the Red Arrows have been flying the Hawk since the late seventies in pretty much the same colour scheme and there must be a limit to their shelflife. I know the spotters have long been bored with them but as previous respondents have noted, they are still popular with the public at large. Whether they provide a recruiting impetus is a moot point but they still enjoy a good public profile.

Mind you with T****r Blair in No 10 and Buffoon at MOD - all things military are vulnerable.

Perhaps, just perhaps, a new aircraft would help with a tighter display - as I remember from Valley, the Hawk needs about 5000ft for a loop ( it was a long time ago if that figure is b******s). Then again, what aircraft is available - needs to be jet for noise but I cannot really see a Eurofighter display team when they are already trying to sell aircraft that have not been delivered.

Then again - never believe what the Mail or Express say in the first place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jayteeto]

In my last 3 years in the RAF I often flew a squirrel in support of the reds. One of my last flights in the mob was a back seat in the synchro pair, organised as a thank you. (An AVM gave his seat up for me!!) Anyone who accuses the team of being arrogant and egotistical are talking bo***cks. There were nights when the team were exhausted and wanted to crash out and they were pestered for photos, autographs and 'interesting conversation' with members of the public. They NEVER let people down, even the weirdos. In a 3 year tour, they are always on duty with families and partners often taking second place. Instead of slagging dedicated professionals off, think before you post. They actually make YOU as part of the military, look better......

[Zoom]

I think the Express quoted savings of £40m if the Arrows were disbanded. We could, however, make some SERIOUS savings by, say, cancelling the Typhoon and buying F-18s off the shelf. Or stopping MEPs from claiming megabucks every time they can't be bothered to turn up at Strasbourg. Or not letting contracts (defence and others) on purely political grounds. Or keeping tighter control of costs of contracts, particularly if MoD is involved. Or designing the gun/aeroplane/boat properly in the first place. Or making Blair and co drive around in Astras rather than Jags. Or - how's this - not going to war when we shouldn't go to war. £40m?? Absolute peanuts in comparison.

[PPRuNe Pop]

LightTwinDriver.

I know of four ex Reds who are in the LHS. One is a former Group Captain. But then there is a growing number of C130 drivers in almost all of the airlines. Two ex Sea King drivers with MyTravel.

Might be a good thread this. Then again...................but what the heck! :E

Who was a Red and now with the airlines. Or RAF, Army or Navy.
Might be more than we imagine.

Oh! Just to stay on topic. It would be a terrible shame if we were no longer able to show of our homegrown premier aerobatic team. How many teams are 40 years old? There is only one Red Arrows and they should remain in the 'front line.'
Although not myself trained by the RAF I have grown to regard all ex RAF pilots as the best, both in my career (now retired) and on the display circuit. The Reds and the other teams encourage new blood to enter the services. If not the Reds how? Fly stickers on the Underground? On the buses and billboards. I don't think so!

[rudekid]

Sad as it may be, I think that the demise of the Reds is an inevitable function of an ever decreasing ( real terms ) defence budget.

Though in the big scheme of things it may be tiny, it still doesn't matter how much the Red Arrows actually cost, it's about presentation. There is no tangible or accountable benefit for the retention of the Reds no matter what our opinions or the effect they may have on morale/recruitment/public perception. It's extremely difficult to justify unnecessary expenditure to a largely hostile media and despite the huge waste that is abundant throughout public life, the Reds are out in the public eye and are therefore an easy target.

Right or wrong? My personal juries out, I love the show but wonder if the money may be better spent. On what I'm not sure!

The Reds? Some years they seem like a great set of guys and other years not. Sadly, like most Sqns there are R Solls everywhere and the individual pratt can give a bad impression of the team. Mind you, anybody who introduces themselves in happy hour as 'Hi, I'm Red #' deserves every bit of banter he gets!

[Mad_Mark]

MOR,

My mistake, didn't realise the thread had been moved. However, you must have come here to respond to my post ;)

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[BEagle]

rudekid - a chum of mine (who later became a senior captain on the national flag carrying airline - Virgin Atlantic) was once rather the worse for wear at a post airshow party in the US. Unfortunately, as he turned his bleary eyed Jockistani face around, he was greeted by a character in a tight fitting flying suit....

"Hi - I'm Blue 3" quoth the Blue Angel (for verily it was indeed one of Uncle Spam's Finest Naval Aviators)'

"Heh? Blue 3 you say? Och, well, I'm Obnoxious 1 - so F*CK OFF!" came the well-fuelled and highly diplomatic response....

We apologised for our cultural ambassador - but Blue mate thought it was quite a laugh!

[keepin it in trim]

just a short note

many years ago I was part of a crew displaying a large and venerable aircraft at an air display the red arrows were present at. Our display pilot, very experienced on type, was pleasantly surprised to be greeted at post display bash by a member of the red arrows who had seen his display and complemented him on doing a great job. Arrogant and egotistical? I think not.

We all used to extract the micheal a little from them but in all honesty they repeatedly produce the goods, season in season out. The RAF and UK plc would be a smaller and greyer place without them.

[Blacksheep]

The day will come when the only bit of the Royal Air Force that still flies will be the Sparrers.

Mark my words.... :(

[MOR]

Mad_Mark

Well, yes, I did come here, but I clicked the link that is still in Rumours and News. I therefore never deliberately selected a military forum, but was forced by external forces to come here. My military virginity is therefore still intact. We kissed, but we didn't inhale.

Go the Reds.

Tally ho, pip pip and all that fine military stuff.

MOR (silly mode engaged)

[PPRuNe Pop]

the national flag carrying airline - Virgin Atlantic




I just love that.............set me up for the day it has :D :ok:


Thanks BEags.

[airborne_artist]

Perhaps Anthony B Liar and G Hooligoon are just teeing things up for a PFI'd Red Arrows?

Serco/Hunting/R Branson would be happy to bid.......

[STANDTO]

Before they are disbanded, I would, just for once, like to see the whole TT display over Ramsey Bay, Isle of Man, from start to finish:

1998 - rained, display cut short.
1999 - traffic patrol, wrong end of Island
2000 - settled down to watch opposite the pier, Reds commence run in, get called to serious bump
2001 - foot and mouth
2002- at serious bump, wrong end of Island
2003- nothing serious, just wrong end of Island
2004 - postponed race on the Tuesday, meaning I was stuck doing point duty. Could hear them but couldn't see them.

This alone should be enough for at least one more season.

[Navaleye]

I have to agree with Keepitlit. If cuts are to be made , then the red arrows are an obvious luxury we just don't need anymore. I'm sure the pilots concerned can be more usefully employed on other more important duties.

[BOAC]

Beagle - shame he wasn't 'Blue2', 'cos then it could be"'Try getting your romper suit loosened off around the crotch":D

Always a good idea to avoid the intro "Hello - I'm Red Too"...
...which takes me back to Baden Sol and ?421Sqn was it? RCAF with their 'Redskin 4-ship check-in'

[PICKS135]

Hate to mention it but everyone said that 'The Royal Tournament' Would never be cut, ["Auntie Liz enjoys it etc"] Where is it now ?

[johnfairr]

The one thing left from the Royal Tournamnet that still gets an airing is the Filed Gun Run, which has been a feature of Welllington Speech Day for a number of years. However, no signals are flashed around the Fleet detailing the times of the Devonport crew or the FAA just failing to break the record, or Portsmouth carrying all before them.

I can see it now, formation cycling at a disused runway near you. Book early to get a seat near the St Johns Ambulance!

:{ :{

[DummyRun]

How about painting 9 red hawks on the underside of the support C-130 for the next Far East tour, you could leave the little red jets at home and invest the savings in laydees, beer and rations, the rest you could squander on gizzits etc... what finer ambassador?

Load moving...........

[PICKS135]

I can see it now, formation cycling at a disused runway near you. Book early to get a seat near the St Johns Ambulance!

Already been done. Air Cadets used to have a display team on pushbikes. ISTR they were called the 'Red Sparrows' Saw them display at Leuchars many moons ago.

[Beeayeate]

Had a fine bike formation display team back on Gan in 72 - The Red Helmets. :} Nice set of low-level bikeobatics - never had a wet-weather programme though for some reason. :hmm:

:ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

Sorry, the disused airfield has been acquired for redevelopment and will shortly be the site of 7923 executive homes and apartments, one shop, a pub no-one uses and a bit of open land designed as a "community space" but used for skate-boarding and cider drinking.

Therefore, the bikerobatics are cancelled TFN.

[London Jets]

The Cadets at my squadron put together "The Red Barrows" for one of our carnival processions a couple years ago. We had cunningly disguised a normal garden wheelbarrow by painting it red, adding wings, tailfin and nose cones! if I can find a picture of them I'll post it! Precision driving at its best!!!!

[STANDTO]

His Airship the Lieutenant governor over here is a big fan of the Purple Helmets - maybe he knows something we don't

Here (http://www.thepurplehelmets.com/gallery/stunts/index.htm)

[Kiting for Boys]

I’m sure I remember a Jordanian Display Team called

The Red Arabs

[Zoom]

I posted this a year or 2 back, but I was at Andrews AFB Air Show in 1983 when the Thunderbirds permitted for the first time another national team - the Arrows - to fly on the same programme. It was a big event and even the Defense (sic) Secretary turned up - albeit in his flip-flops! There was a thin cloudbase at about 1500-2000' and so both teams did there low-level displays. The F-16s' take off was terrific............ and that was about it. The show took far too much sky and was not nearly dynamic enough, and the paint job meant that the aircraft disappeared against the cloud. The Arrows were splendid, keeping the show tight, visible and thrilling, and they made a lot of new fans then. The RAF's stock was sky high on that day and probably for many, many days afterwards. So well done, the Reds, you certainly earned your flying pay on that occasion at least.

[Skylark4]

I remember seeing a TV piece about The Red Barrows some years ago. In this case they were 9 red painted builders wheelbarrows 'driven' by, I think, members of the Fire section from somewher now forgotten.

Did you hear about the guy who took his wheelbarrow wheel in to Quickfit or similar to get a puncture repaired and when he collected it he found that they had balanced the wheel?

Mike W

[6foottanker]

I know they pose beyond the call of duty, but i hate to admit that the Reds bring in far too much desparately needed revenue for them to be binned. The Govt know this, the RAF know this, and the Reds know this! Plus, I'm sure that British WasteofSpace will retain a vested interest in 'their' hawks regarding future export potential. And how many Brit kids do you guys know of that want to fly as part of the frecce tricolori???? We all love to hate them, but somehow, they'll see the tabloids off once again.

And as for the Dead Sparrows Cycle Display Team, their last display at Cranwell in 2000 will not be forgotten!

:cool:

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

This could be the thin end of the wedge. Ask the RNZAF what happened to the Air Combat Force after Kiwi Red was scrapped.

[Gingerbread Man]

I would have been able to understand the argument for getting rid of the Reds... had they not flown over my house just five minutes ago and reminded me how fantastic it is to see them doing anything (even straight and level!). Hope this remains a rumour :) .

Ginge :cool:

[Peeking Duck]

In light of recent rambling on PPRuNe

Could we use our collective power and influence to become a lobby group to voice concern on the recent reports that this lovely Government wishes to disband the Red Aroows to save costs.

I would much rather my taxes went on the RAF's finest than to the other dubuios things this shower spend our money on.

Please post comments and ideas as to how we can achieve a collective voice on this issue

:ok:

[Megaton]

I don't think anybody in the government is trying to disband the Red Arrows. Hack journalism articles misrepresenting comments made to an in-house publication are hardly authoritative but I don't think there's any substance in it. It must have been a quiet news day!

[zed3]

Better solution.....SCRAP BLAIR !!!

[J.A.F.O.]

In that case would anybody like to form a lobby group to get the Red Arrows disbanded?

[Peeking Duck]

I really hope your right, I honestly do!

It is just that, it is just the sort of thing this bunch of accountants would do; regardless of public opinion.

A wise old chap recently said to me ( recently retired from the RAF) that this Government

"knows the cost of everything; but the value of nothing!"

In the light of recent defence cuts I tend to agree!

I do not think these reports are the subject of ""hack's looking for a story. Unfortunately I think this report has a basis of fact.

Geoff Hoon would not confirm or dismiss the report yesterday so one must accept the worst!!!

I cannot imagine France or Italy or the good ol' US of A doing the same. But then again the UK is now on such a spiral of decline that I think it is probably enevitble that this defence cut would probably happen. God forbid!
:mad:

[breakscrew]

Watching the Reds at Waddington this weekend was as exciting as watching paint dry. After 40 years isn't it a kindness to put them out of their misery? :E

[soddim]

Maybe they need the flair of a leader like Ray Hanna to reinvigorate their performance - but would such a show be permitted today in our health and safety sterile environment?

[sharpshot]

http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/Emirates/Red_Bull_Arrow.jpg

[Eagle 270]

Having attended the Waddington bash, I must agree wholeheartedly with break and soddim.

Are the Reds the central point to the UK airshow scene?

If they disappeared, would the airshow scene evaporate? One thinks not. Although, they may have a differing opinion.

Maybe the Reds could ask the Frecce or Patrulla Aguila for some tips on how to make an interesting and varied display?

They could compare yellow cards too.:ok: Although under no circumstances were the Reds in the wrong. To criticise the Reds is to almost suggest that Aunty Betty is a fallen lady and gains her income from the steps of Kings Cross.

On another note. With regards to Waddo 2003, I must say that I am glad that some have heeded the points brought out from this time last year. The standard of turn out from Royal Air Force members was much better. Well done!! It doesn’t cost anything to have pride in ones self and ones uniform.

[J.A.F.O.]

They've been stooging round the world doing pretty much the same thing for years, they should stop poncing around in too tight suits and get back to doing what my tax money trained them to do.

I'd hate to agree with Blair, Hoon or an accountant but they're a waste of rations and red nomex.

[Like This - Do That]

The RAAF Roulettes are all part timers, full time employment as QFIs at CFS. So, they're not as polished as full time teams like the Red Arrows.

If you had to choose between no team and a part time team, surely the part time option is better. Part timers would be unlikely to achieve the consistent excellence that a full time team will produce. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't fly as well as the Roulettes if I had 10 years intensive coaching, but it's analogous to any pursuit where excellence is sought.

The other thing is that the Hawks make a far more impressive impact than do PC-9s (or Tucanos or other props). It isn't about impressing trained pilots, it's about impressing mug punters. The mug punters on the ground OOhh and Aahh much more when jets are flying. The Roulettes gave up their MB326s in favour of PC-9s about 14 years ago (?) and crowd interest dipped appreciably. Over Sydney Harbour in January 1996 the Red Arrows' Hawks were much more exciting than the Roulettes' PC-9s.

Let's hope it doesn't get to that, but Sky news reported the same story this morning. Also several warships to go and another 4 battalians to be chopped.

Cheers

[Megaton]

Sorry, mate, but take it from me: there is no basis in fact in the story. It was taken from an RAF News article on the Reds and twisted out of all recognition. If people wish to believe rubbish like the Mail or Express, that's up to them.

[DWARF BULKHEAD]

Given the choice between the "Reds" and a couple of ships/batallions then the Reds should go. However, before we go that far the lords and masters in MOD should pay some serious attention to the gross overmanning in the RAF.

The work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull and do the junior service no credit whatsoever. When the RAF becomes a 'can do' organisation, the great british electorate wil start to get value for money. As things stand, the RAF do not give reasonable return on investment but bleed the defence budget at the expense of other branches.

So, Tony (much as I disagree with your line on Iraq) dont stop at the Reds but bin the bl..dy lot.

[Feck]

Ooh, someone's tired! We'll have to put sailor boy back to bed if he's not going to play nicely.

[soddim]

DWARF BULKHEAD,

You throw out some wild criticism of the RAF in your post with absolutely no attempt to justify your remarks.

I am at a loss to work out how the RAF could possibly "give reasonable return on investment" or is there a modern way of counting returns by the flying hour or number of practise bombs on target? I have always thought that all money spent on defence was a dead loss unless there was a need to use the forces and then the only calculation that mattered was winning. I believe the RAF has been on the winning side for some time now so they must be giving a "reasonable return".

You also level the accusation that "work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull" but how did you measure these and against what yardstick?

Please enlighten ppruners further or your assertions will be dismissed for lack of evidence.

[capt.sparrow]

For the wrinklies who contribute to this forum the Red Arrows display maybe maybe boring but to young children at their first airshow it is still awesome.
For a country that is going downhill fast why shouldn't we have the Red Arrows who show off one of the things we are good at?
For saving money shouldn't we look at the £210.000 it costs us for every MP - the only job where you are assessed only every four or five years and decide among yourselves how much you want to be paid, the £400 000 000 a year we allegedly spend on immigrates who are HIV positive per annum-would any other country allow this to happen?and the Scottish parliament building which is £350 000 000 over budget - the lunatics really are running the asylum!

[JessTheDog]

How much did the "gay lesbian work life balance" event cost MoD??

How much do Focus and the other Pravda-style freesheets cost?

Etc....

I'll be glad to get out of this Service, each day there is something that grates even more. We are not about doing a job anymore, rather about creating a PR image to bolster egocentric politicians at a minimum of cost to the taxpayer regardless of the burden placed on individual servicemen and women. The burden will rise and we will be expected to grin even more as part of the "corporate comms" PR machine with no means of complaint when the screw continues to turn.

We're getting to be like every other failing public service that has been "reformed" and the major difference is there is no-one to fight our corner!

[pr00ne]

Peeking Duck,



..."In the light of recent defence cuts I tend to agree!"......


What Defence Cuts?

...."I cannot imagine France or Italy or the good ol' US of A doing the same. But then again the UK is now on such a spiral of decline that I think it is probably enevitble that this defence cut would probably happen. God forbid!"........................................



Yep, the world's 4th largest economy with the lowest unemployment in Europe, the healthiest set of finances of all the G8 nations, the highest growth in the EU and more people employed in our economy than ever before, we're really in a spiral of decline!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Some people!

[smartman]

Capt Sparrow - I am a wrinkly. In fact I'm now quite saggy and dangly (even more so since last September). So I'm going to be unfashionable, show my age, and express my unwavering admiration for this enduring British icon.

Over the past 40 years or so the Red Arrows have demonstrated excellence, flown the flag worldwide, entertained, provided inspiration for millions and aspiration for many. They continue to do so when not a few of our once-revered institutions/values are going down the gurgler at an ever-increasing and saddening rate.

Those out there who believe that BAe rode/rides high on the back of the team, and think that a single Hawk was exported because of the Red Arrows are lacking brain cells. They might instead contemplate the benefit to 'UK Ltd' brought about by the many demanding overseas tours, of which BAe was just one proud sponsor, and be just a little proud of the reaction that always followed their foreign displays - most of which went un-noticed within the general public back here. And those who talk of prima-donnas (pilots or groundcrew) are either acutely aware of their own dearth of testosterones, just plain envious, or thick.

For those of you who are bored with the routine, my son-in-law and grandson recently saw them for the first time - awesome said the 11 year-old: his dad used an expletive. I'll also bet all our veterans watching the D-Day flypast over Arromanche on the 6th June felt a bit of the same. Bored? - then forget aviation, take up croquet (sorry to croquet lovers).

And as for the cost? A snip. A year's wages for Ericsson and four of his 'professionals'. I know, I know, that's not real public money - but it underlines the sadness associated with one of those institutions that I mentioned to begin with.

Far from going down the gurgler, our National Aerobatic Team will outlast all those good British things that are fast becoming memories.

Soap box back in shed

[Beeayeate]

Yep, the world's 4th largest economy with the lowest unemployment in Europe, the healthiest set of finances of all the G8 nations, the highest growth in the EU and more people employed in our economy than ever before, we're really in a spiral of decline!

All for nought if we haven't the means to defend it.
:mad:

[pr00ne]

B(I)8,


Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?

[Bigtop]

Been around a long time, same staid displays - okay maybe they could do with a bit more pizazz but tradition is what makes the military. Afterall, how many haven't wished that we could have some stability in our work rather than the constant change heaved upon us.

Unfortunately this government as rightly said know the cost of everything and the value of nothing and will stop at nothing to win political points and endeavour to be seen to be surving the publics interests whilst instead lining their own pockets. Blair will find some mechanism for spinning the cost of the Reds into better healthcare even if they are paid for by private companies investments.

Lets face it defence and protecting this country is way down his list of priorities. Afterall he's about to slash all three services after a galant demonstration of how we adapt, improvise and overcome with some of our less capable kit.

If you don't produce money like a fruit machine in return for the odd quid you're buggered and they won't take the blame - they'll hang some-else out to dry. A topical example is DVLA - they have a nationwide computer that not only knows you've not paid your road tax when queried by anyone, anywhere in the UK but will actually issue the penalty notice automatically. If that t@&t Blunkett invested in the police computer system maybe he wouldn't be demanding the resignation of a Police Chief. But then crime don't pay - not to the g'ment anyway.

So what money do the forces make - none. Time for a slash and burn policy then. Perhaps its time for a hostile takeover - to use words of the commercial sector maybe they'll understand.!!!

[ROLLERSKATE]

we may have a strong economy and high employment but we have a government who are unprincipled, they do not care about the Red Arrows, defence, law and order etc. it is all lip service.
Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending, he wants to cut crime but the courts are ineffective and
so often the punishment doesn't fit the crime, school children are
unruly and teachers are scared to discipline them because of the consequences, doctors and nurses are regularly verbally and physically asaulted by drunken thugs every weekend because this people they are helping are scum who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves and WE are paying for this!
Thats why we are in a spiral of decline.
Having a strong economy doesn't necessarily make the country good, its about pride, being proud, pricinciples, fighting for the under dog, knowing what is right and wrong.
The Red Arrows and other militay display teams shows the world what we can achieve, its shows and tells them our servicemen and women are the best because if we don't believe it no body else will - without pride you are nothing.
The military have got to get in the PR business, they need to be seen in a positive way, most people who have no interest in aircraft will not go to an airshow to see a line up of drab looking aircraft, but they will go to see the Red Arrows, once you got them through the gate they can get to see what the forces are about, they may not join up but they can see the positive things the military do which may directly effect them i.e. SAR, mountain rescue, intercepting drug runners in the carribean, how the army are not just policing the worlds trouble spots but helping communities through building projects etc.
That why keeping the red Arrows and other teams is important
Persuade people that money spent on the military is a good thing
and maybe, just maybe things may change - unlikely but you never know?
[/list]

[soddim]

Good points, ROLLERSKATE. The Red Arrows show what can be achieved by hard work and discipline - qualities that are not high on our Nation's list of priorities.

I suspect that this government has little regard for such values - looking good in their eyes is much more important than being good.

Time to stick to traditional values and not be seduced by 'New Labour' or any other gimmicks.

[Beeayeate]

pr00ne
Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?

Oh I don't know, let's see . . . they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?

That, and instilling a sense of national pride in Joe Public. :hmm: ;)

[TC27]

Hmm, are the Daily Mail and the Telegraph the only papers made availale to those in the RAF? Will I leave it a bitter old reactionary if I join?

Its evident that this goverment is spending more (yes even in 'real terms') on defence, however a lot of money is tied down in buying you all expensive new bits of hardware and operation Telic is hitting the coffers hard.

If concern over defence spending will be your primary criteria on choosing who to vote for then I am afraid you will have the vote for Tony Blair (or Gordon Brown after two years), you know the antichrist who is planning to sell your children as slaves to Romanian gypsy immigrants ETC ETC. Both the Tories and the Lib Dems are committed to cutting the defence budget.

[pr00ne]

Rollerskate,

......"Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending"..........


NO HE ISN'T! Get your facts straight man!


Jeez this place is becoming rather like the Daily Mail or Telegraph chat rooms!

When I was in Aunty Betty's flying club we had a good range of political opinion in the crew room, and that was in an era when we had REAL defence cuts and were in the height of the Cold War!

B(I)8,

How?

[Biggus]

Refence the 'defence cuts' everybody is talking about, my understanding of the situation is as follows:

The defence budget is actually going up, slightly! However, the defence budget, rather than contingency reserves, is paying for currrent day to day operations in Iraq (I believe Gordon Brown did use some reserve money when the so called 'shooting war' was going on - but we are into 'peacekeeping' now!). This, coupled with cost over runs in procurement projects, has required the defence budget to be 'reorganised' (i.e money needs to be saved elsewhere). The only real option to save money is to get rid of some people and hardware (e.g the Red Arrows - if that rumour is actually true!!)

Thus the defence budget is 'suffering' as a result of operations in Iraq.

Now if I have got it wrong I am more than willing to be corrected by somebody out there with more accurate facts!

[BEagle]

Daily Chipwrapper - 29 June 2004

BLAIR'S WAR CLIPS ARROWS' WINGS

Blair's invasion of Iraq has claimed yet more victims. The cost of his adventurism clinging to Bush's coat tails in Iraq has hit our forces hard. Bad enough that, thanks to underspending, they went in without enough equipment, but now the true cost is beginning to hit home.

Gordon Brown has refused to pay up for Blair's war - which was supported by virtully no-one outside his inner circle of cronies - and the defence budget has had to bear the brunt. Top brass told Hoon how much the war would cost, but they were told to send the troops in without knowing how the bills were going to be paid.

So now the defence budget is having to pay for a war for which no funds had been allocated. The result? Cut, cut, cut. Not only are huge cuts in men, machines and capabilities being forced through by the Labour government, but even the pride of the RAF is to go. Born years ago after the cost of Fighter Command aerobatic teams became too high, the Central Flying Schools' famous display team, the Red`Arrows has become the latest victim of Blair's war. The 'Reds' have thrilled the pubic for nearly 40 years and are acknowledged as the world's best. Yet this once proud nation can no longer afford them due to the cost of Blair playing world policeman in the shadow of George Bush.

Enough is enough. This time Blair must be told to think again. The Chipwrapper's campaign starts today and it's your chance to tell Blair how you feel. Join our campaign by displaying your free HANDS OFF THE REDS! sticker and show your support for our world famous RAF Aerobatic Team.


If only.......

[breakscrew]

I'm sorry, but if the Reds are the best then it is about time to pack up and go home. Their routine is tired, slow and very boring. If you wanted to see some professional display flying at Waddington then it was ably provided by the Italian Frecce Tricolori and the Spanish Patrulla Aquilla, who really showed us how jets could and should be displayed (and who got less yellow cards than the Reds). Keep the Reds if you want, but please get them to buck up - they are a terribly poor advert for the RAF.

[Beeayeate]

pr00ne

How what?

[pr00ne]

B(I)8,

Said;

...."they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?"......


Yes, but they provide this for a display team, the public perception of the RAF is more akin to a reaction to Stormshadow strikes on Iraq and bombing the place for ten years.

If some poor sod is inspired to join the RAF as groundcrew based on what he/she sees of the Arrows then they wil have a real shock just after passing out of Cosford!

[Nickctaylor]

"Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?" You might as well say the same about any regimental band. In their case they become stretcher bearers etc. In the Red Arrows case they are more than competent flyers so of course they won't be in a red jet, but something that kills!

[Beeayeate]

pr00ne

But don't the g/c and pilots percolate throughout the mob taking their skills with them? Surely this can only have a positive effect on the "non-display" side. Centuries ago when I was "in" it was thought to be a Good Thing (tm) to have an ex-Red g/c or pilot on the sqd as, generally they were considered tidy and diligent workers. But maybe that's all changed these days. :confused:

Public perception of the RAF is still, and always has been, that we drop bombs, kill people and break their stuff. That and the "Spitfire" and handlebar moustaches.

As for "some poor sod" being in for a shock after leaving training . . .well, it has always be thus, and you know it. :ok:

But strangely people still do elect to join because of what they see of the RAF. They all seem to want to be pilots of course, but still readily accept entry to the ground trades (or become navs!) Unfortunately, in the current politically correct climate, the discipline, skills, self-reliance and general attitude imbuded in service personnel are actively frowned upon - and easily denigrated.

So, the Reds do a good job and are probably the only worthwhile PR the UK has! Or do you think the likes of Beckham and the football crowd do it better?

[ROLLERSKATE]

PrOOne
I should not have said defence cuts as none us really know what is happening and I agree the other parties are no better.
The facts are that Britain now has many conmitments around the world i.e. Iraq, Afganistan, the Balkans etc. and none of the parties are willing to provide the resources for these ops.
To transport these the servicemen and equipment you need ships, aircraft and helicopters which are needed now not in the
near future.
Just because things were bad in the past it doesn't mean they have to be bad now.
Long term investment in new equipment can actually save money with modern equipment been more efficient, more reliable and needing fewer people to service and operate it providing we actually buy the right equipment.
Anyway keep the Red Arrows because any PR for the military and the UK has got to be a good thing.

[Navaleye]

Breakscrew makes a very good point. The problem with the arrows is not so much the display routine, but the yawn yawn Hawks. Lets have a display team drawn from front line Typhoon squadrons (assuming we still own them) . Nice big FJs that make lots of noise and actually excites the crowd.

[Archimedes]

Problem with that has always been the cost (financial and readiness: the last Lightning team (Firebirds, IIRC) gave way to the Yellowjacks/Reds because as well as the cost of using a Mach 2 fighter for aero displays, 56 Sqn had to devote an awful lot of time for training for the displays.

By all accounts (although I don't knwo how accurate they are) the then AOC-in-C Fighter Command was fairly firm in expressing the view that his squadrons should be ready to defend UK airspace rather than thrilling crowds.

While equpping the Reds with Typhoons would overcome the issue of taking a squadron (or part thereof) out of the front line, the cost would probably be too great (unless Eurofighter GBmH could be persuaded to assist with some of the costs out of their advertising budget!). Also, I assume that there would be issues about converting onto type for those who'd never flown Typhoon before - whereas they've all flown Hawk at some point?

[JessTheDog]

Good article in the Telegraph today about the breakdown in trust between the government and the armed forces. I wouldn't trust the s#!ts as far as I could throw them! As to increases in defence spending claimed by Pr00ne, that may well prove to be tosh! We need to see if the comprehensive spending review puts some sums to the very vague White Paper. I reckon that MoD are pulling the normal government trick and counting money twice. I've seen my budget slashed as costs for T&S increase because of a lack of service accommodation at most units and that is just one first-hand experience of a lack of dosh! Also, why should the defence budget suffer over the Iraq war? This was apparently a national undertaking as a result of a threat to UK interests, if not safety and security, so the benefits of improved security should be paid for by all. More to do with trying to avoid the political cost of a tax rise for an unpopular war, the controversy over which will reignite when the Butler report is published which is apparently investigating press releases sent to regional newspapers with "45 mins" highlighted in yellow highlighter pen. So much for no spin. I feel as if the armed forces have been greatly damaged by association with this venture and are now being reamed to pay for it.

Sorry for this rant that is a bit off-thread.

[MaxAOB]

Your all missing the point chaps! If Red 1 was captured in Iraq the boys in balaclavas would still chop his head off! What are our armed forces for? Yes the Reds are great, professional, among the best in the world blah blah, but we once had an empire, we once had lots of things and when the cash is tight they are becoming a luxury we cannot afford. Then again maybe they could nip out to Fallujah and win hearts and minds with a few diamond nines and synchro pair routines!! Mind you where would they live - i guess they would have to stay in Bahrain cos the hotels in Iraq wouldn't be good enough!

I'm sure they represent everything that's good about the UK - white, male mainly heterosexual (although the ones i've met make that debateable!), not disabled (well physically anyway) and tory voters!!! Hoorah!

:cool:

Trust my comments will be taken by you all as they are intended!

[BEagle]

A thank you to the Reds on behalf of a friend who had a great day with them yesterday. True gents, as ever, great PR for the Service and they made a tremendously favourable impression on all with whom they came into contact.

Can't believe that those spineless beancounters who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing can dare to query their future:mad: :mad:

[Archimedes]

know the cost of everything and the value of nothing

I think that explains in a nutshell why they can question the Reds' future...:mad:

[Gingerbread Man]

Breakscrew,

You know the Red Arrows are the Red coloured jets, right? At Waddington I thought they were the very definition of professionalism. Granted, their display is similar from year-to-year, but the Frecce's display was very similar as well. The Reds stand out for keeping their formations much tighter and with less mistakes than the rest, but I think the most amazing thing is they way in which they regroup so smoothly after a split. You may have seen them countless times and therefore be bored of them / jealous, but credit where credits due?

The humble opinions of Ginge ;)

[Navaleye]

So, according to the press, we'll lose the Nimrod, Harrier, Jaguar, some Tornados (F3?), Typhoons will be deferred.

Puma will go, Junglies will go. If the carriers are laid up the ASaC 7 will go.

That leaves us with little air defence, some strike and Bu%%er all else.

Things are never as good or as bad as they seem, so hopefully it may not be the doom and gloom scenario we expect. Usually in the these cutback's there's a sweetener somethere. Anyone care to strike a guess at what it is?

[breakscrew]

Gingerbread Man

Bored - yes; jealous -no. As a fare paying member of the public watching our national aerobatic team perform a staid and lacklustre routine was faintly embarassing. I simply enjoyed the Italian and Spanish teams at Waddo much more so. The Reds really need to think up something different and original after 40 years of the same changes of formation and smooth regroups. Mind you, if they are simply reflecting the organisation they represent, then you could congratulate them on doing it so well.

[Peeking Duck]

You seem to confuse a boring display with an unsafe display.

Although the Red's have had the odd miss hap over the years (e.g. Low flying over marina, contact with mast)

Overall they are the safest on the circuit!!!!.

They always pride themselves on their saftey record, which is more than be said for other national teams. (No names no pack drill).

I do believe that this government would try and disband the team in favour of more expensive trendy projects, that they seem to love wasting money on!!!!

[airborne_artist]

Article on BBCi. Full article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3908187.stm)

"They stole the show at this year's Bastille Day celebrations, are a fixture of British summer events, and are expected to survive feared cuts in this week's defence spending review. Everyone, it seems, loves the Red Arrows.

A word of advice to all those dewy-eyed schoolboys out there who dream of one day flying with the Red Arrows - learn your trigonometry."

[Peeking Duck]

Although recent reports of the Red’s death were greatly exaggerated, a website was posted to channel support with links to other Red Arrow sites

http://www.save-the-redarrows.co.uk

Suppose it is never too late to show support