QF seniority numbers

[wingnutt]

From now on, when the cadets finish their training they will be reserved a seniority number while they do their two years industry placement. This means when they start with QF on the same course as a direct entry applicant they'll already have about 2 years of seniority on them!!

This means when they finish training they'll be able to bid for what they want, won't ever see a blankline, and will be more senior than someone who joined 23 months before them!!

This is absurd, i'm still trying to work out how flying a metro or bras for airnorth or skippers can count as two years towards your seniority for an FO slot etc, when most GA people have done exactly this already.

This has already affected about 20 recently recruited SO's and will affect every SO recruited from now on.

Very ordinary. :mad: :yuk:

[tobzalp]

I know nothing of the process, but how does one get a cadetship? Should these direct entry people be applying for them themselves when they get to that 2-3 thousand hours level and are looking for a better twin job or is it just for newbies?

[DirectAnywhere]

To play Devil's Advocate....

Irrespective of what you think of cadets, industry placement and experience is something that most of us have been calling for for some time - albeit for various reasons.

I can see the argument that these individuals "entry" into Qantas has been "delayed" by two years or whatever it takes to do their industry placement. Therefore there is an argument for giving them seniority numbers when their cadet course is complete not when they enter the airline.

I can also see that this will p%^s off a lot of people.:ooh:

[wingnutt]

I really can't see why they had to change from the old system where an applicant was assigned their seinority, based on the day they started, whether cadet or not.

This will annoy many future QF pilots.

[SeldomFixit]

That won't annoy em half as much as Jetstar.........:uhoh:

[Feather #3]

In the original sytem, as distinct from your "old", wingnutt , cadets had their seniority start 6 months after their date of employment for all the above reasons!

G'day ;)

[blueloo]

Wingnutt, are you the same bloke who has been whinging about Cadets since year dot?

If so, you have issues, and I would suggest you get over them. It may not be the fairest system in the world, but there are more important issues going in QF methinks.

Furthermore, why not keep your QF cadet issues internal rather than on a public forum.

[Kaptin M]

From a non(QF)-partisan point of view.

Welcome to LIFE, wingnutt - no-one ever said that it would be "fair", although most people try to live by a mutually acceptable set of guidelines that ensures harmonious living with their peers.

The seniority system that you are fortunate enough to have in place, but are complaining about, is the very SAME one that protects YOUR position, when someone with more experience than you joins.

It's the SAME (seniority) system that will, again, protect YOUR position, and keep you moving up the ladder, should you have a medical condition or accident that prevents you from doing any flying for a considerable period.

You say that you're still trying to work outhow flying a metro or bras for airnorth or skippers can count as two years towards your seniority for an FO slot etc, when most GA people have done exactly this already....whilst people who have been flying Metros or Bras with 4 and 5 times your experience, are still trying to work out why THEY have to slot in BEHIND you.

Wiser heads than your's have sat down and arrived at the structuring of the seniority you are blessed to have.
Protect it, because it sure as Hell will look after YOU!

[slamer]

Its their (QF's) "Train Set", they can allocate seniority however they see fit!.... be thankful you have it (a seniority list), and it remains un-changed & un-challenged once in place.

[wingnutt]

Blueloo,

do a search if you like, i'm most definately not a cadet basher, infact some of my best mates are cadets and i myself tried for one, once upon a time, and would have done it in a flash.


This has no affect on me AT ALL! I am thinking of people joining in years to come and don't think it's very fair on them.

[ia1166]

another whinging australian post. you guys have a reputation to uphold i suppose but try working with no seniority list. many of us would trade places with you guys.

[Jetsbest]

One reason I've heard, Wingnutt, is that these individuals are AIPA due-paying members from the day they start their employment (anyone confirm?)... Therefore, AIPA is looking after its current members before those yet to come. Fair enough.
Having said that, I reckon QF are, ironically, again erecting a barrier to pilot promotion for those who are employed with substantial experience for all the usual reasons and subsequently realise that IF they they the take first-available promotional opportunity they will only be later stacked on by those who were, up 'til that point, too inexperienced for the position.
Now, no-one will reject a job. There has always been someone willing to take the promotions and be junior (and reserve the right to complain about their early promotion too!). Maybe the current impetus for 'rostering rule' changes will alter the way some choose to progress their career. But I get concerned when some judge the choices of others (re promotion or otherwise) while defending the very system which allows/defends/drives the choices individuals make. To them I say, you can't have an each way bet....
And regardless of your take on things, you can still enjoy the job or move on to greener pastures as required.;)

[Keg]

Hang on a sec wingnutt. These guys and gals pass the QF selection, are offered a position as a QF 'cadet' three to six months later, pass that training 12-15 months later and then QF tells them to head off for a couple of years (whereas in the past they would have joined straight away!). And you think that them getting a number comensureate with them finishing their initial cadet training is unfair to people that perhaps haven't even applied to get in to QF yet?

It's happened before with an ex cadet who went to fly with the Army after QF said no eimployment for ages (hi Mel) who then joined QF at the end of her ROSO and was senior to me and I was the F/O on her Second Officer famil trip. She jumped about three hundred people (or more.) I was directly affected (being junior) and I still think it's a fair deal.

I can see partly where you're coming from but in the grand scheme of things, this one rates well down the list!

[wingnutt]

Cheers Keg, wasn't sure if this was something new or happened before. Makes a little more sense now, but still less than perfect me thinks.

[Keg]

Actually, I need to 'qualify' my previous statement a bit more. Mel didn't 'jump' 300 people in terms of seniorority. Her seniorority was where it always had been, just that her official start date was a couple of years behind the person one number senior and one number junior. I see a similar thing occurring here.

These guys and gals ordinarily would have been employed by QF at the end of their cadet course. The fact that QF says go and work elsewhere for a couple of years first (and tees up that work) shouldn't preclude them from having a seniorority number from the time when they would have normally started!

[*Lancer*]

Wingnut, you're right, it's not perfect... but the seniority system is a long way from perfect! This seems to be the most equitible way of assigning seniority - even though that might make things a bit more painful to those who start in Q before the cadets do. The cadets will have had a direct association with Qantas long before those that might actually get the contract before them. It's a shame they'll miss out on all those standbys! ;)

I guess there may have also been problems with start date seniority if they didn't all start on the same day (ie if AirNorth couldn't replace them immediately, or if Qantas didn't want them all at once).

Lancer

[wingnutt]

Keg and lancer, cheers i've taken it all on board.

I've no problem with them getting a seniority date when they finish their training and start with QF, so i guess this isn't any different.

Nutt

[Z Force]

Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing cadets?

[Mr.Buzzy]

Come on its simple.... It creates a far better standard of pilot. Teaching an employee the right way from the beginning ensures a far better quality long term commander..... Just ask any of them!

[blueloo]

Z Force, if you wish to start a Cadet Bashing thread, why not search dunnunda and just open one of the hundreds of other cadet bashing threads already written. It saves the same people from having to write the same responses/replies over and over again.


If you didnt want to start a cadet bashing thread, why not search anyway, and you will no doubt find your answer amongst those posts.


As a third option, you could apply some common sense and think of a fair, balanced answer yourself.

[grrowler]

blueloo,

Seem a little uptight mate... where did zforce suggest anything about cadet bashing? Not everyone's out to get cadets so why the paranoia?

[blueloo]

Grrowler, you make a fair point. My humble apologies Z force.


I would like to ask this question then:

Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?


:ok:

[*Lancer*]

I think Z Force has been around along enough to realise what he/she is starting. How about we all just give it a rest for once? That's all I'm going to say! (for once) :rolleyes:

[Z Force]

It was NOT a cadet bashing question. All I want to know is the proper policy as to why Qantas employ cadets? Can anybody supply a mature answer? Sorry if I chose my words incorrectly.

[Kaptin M]

blueloo asks, "Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?"

Because that has been the TRADITIONAL source for almost ALL airlines from the year dot.
Apparently Q also feel that G.A. exposure is beneficial to the development of their cadets - as opposed to keeping them completely with the airline system once recruited - by sending them "outside", as mentioned earlier in this thread.

[DutchRoll]

Only hypothesising with no axe to grind so don't tear my head off please, but there are probably a couple of reasons Z Force.

They start young, so the Company is almost certain to get a long 'return of service' out of them for their training investment. Being younger they also learn more quickly than us old farts, are less likely to have families and huge mortgages, and so are more inclined to climb the promotional ladder quicker, thus giving the Company a ready supply of fodder for fleets such as the 767, etc. Also, the perception that the younger you start with a company the more likely you are to be a 'company man' (ie, loyalty, indoctrination & all that stuff) might come into play, though if management heard some of the things I've heard uttered by very senior cadets about some of their decisions they might be less inclined to believe that! Naturally it comes with disadvantages too, such as minimal experience levels which are eventually overcome, and large airline blinkers which might be more problematic.

The seniority system is not perfect, nor is the cadet scheme, or even pilot recruitment for that matter, but then how would you make it so?

I'm not pro or anti cadet (and am not a cadet myself). Just pointing out a few factors which might come into play.

[NDB APPROACH]

this is just tall poppies syndrome, a typical aussie trait. people who missed out or didnt qualify for a 'cadetship' feel hard down buy so they target a minority of people who worked hard and made the cut.
the cadets getting a senority number when they finish training before industry placement is an AIPA introduction. they feel that in the old system they would have started straight away and not done industry placement so therefore they are disadvantaged. i feel it is a good thing that industry placement is done as it increasing experience and preventing that'airline' blinker syndrome.
the senority scheme has been in place for years and there is always someone it helps and someone it disadvantages. and even those who are advantaged are disadvantage, because promotion can only be met when the required standards and hours are met so if senority.
so maybe some pilots should put there head down and bum up and work just as hard as the cadets have to get their positions, instead of targeting an easy group of people who dont chose any of these priveleges, just get to access them

[Mr.Buzzy]

NDB....... uuuum NDB....Perhaps while we are on the topic of Äussie traits"and the like, a small verse may be appropriate. It goes something like.

"Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think you're a dummy than to open it and remove all doubt."

Sorry bucko but "Hard down buy" was way too much!

[NDB APPROACH]

i just edit my last post
doing more work is an unfair statement as many pilots are out there working very hard.
what was meant was that less time should be spent blaming cadets and whinging and maybe more time spent concentrating on getting in direct entry or going about what ever aviation busy we have.

and mr buzzy a few 'typos' doesnt make a difference, its the principle. its people like your self who attack the superfical instead of the fundamental principles behind it.

[Z Force]

Thanks DutchRoll. That was the sort of answer I was after.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Well NDB without the risk of getting drawn into your little drama. Id like to say that those "superficial little typos" seem to make a big difference to those in recruiting who are judging suitable direct entry candidates.

[grrowler]

blueloo,

I would like to ask this question then:

Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?
Could be wrong, but I think I detect slightly sarcastic undertones.

I can see many advantages for QF hiring cadets, one problem I believe however, is a 19yo lack of life experience. While you can teach someone to fly a jet with no flying experience, you can't teach (I believe) people skills or decision making skills, for example, very successfully. It comes through experience.

Of course maybe I just wish I'd put [my] head down and bum up and work[ed] just as hard as the cadets have to get their positions, :rolleyes:

[Feather #3]

Just a query, grrowler,

how do the air forces of the world get away with putting 19-year olds in the single seat of fast jets, as, under your hypothesis, they would be walking [well, flying?] disasters due to their lack of life experiences?

Of course, if the answer is strict selection, training and flying in a disciplined environment, then, presto, we have a cadet scheme followed by airline work!

Interesting??

G'day ;)

[grrowler]

Very good point F#3,

Yes I agree training and flying in a disciplined environment is only beneficial in making a good product for the airline. However, I feel the difference is the airforces o' th' world take their new pilots to be away from their comfort zone (living at home with family and friends) and put them through officer training etc which is designed to develop those skills, this is long before they are let anywhere near a fast jet, if indeed they ever will be. As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.

I'm just saying I believe there are skills which are not taught/ developed in the cadet program which are available from outside groups (eg GA).

[Curved Approach]

Hmmmm, NDB...I think I know what you are trying to say, perhaps not well said however :rolleyes:


one problem I believe however, is a 19yo lack of life experience. While you can teach someone to fly a jet with no flying experience, you can't teach (I believe) people skills or decision making skills, for example, very successfully
This is only a problem to some extent, one which QF obviously sees too. But the recruitment process, particularly the Psych Profile and interview stages are there to guage the candidates maturity, decision making potential and their potential to work in a team. These qualities also seen by QF in the Direct Entry Pilots they take too, mind you!! Indeed QF has instigated this new CIPP to enhance the cadets life experiences which may indeed be not as wide as many GA pilots; however not all cadets are straight out of school and too like GA pilots are all from different walks of like and many have worked other jobs to save up for flying.

I feel the difference is the airforces o' th' world take their new pilots to be away from their comfort zone (living at home with family and friends)
.....
As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.
Correct me if im wrong, but flying schools who teach the cadets are selected partly because they have live-in facilities and cadets are encouraged to move out of home???

Cadet intake into QF is only a very small percentage of the intake of pilots into the company...so let's put this to rest?? Some interesting points made guys, and sure no system is ever perfect really and will never keep everyone happy. Also at the end of the day, as much as us pilots don't want to look at it this way, QF is running an airline that is a business; need I say more.

[grrowler]

CA,

I presume you've done the psych evaluation... do you honestly believe it successfully evaluates maturity and decision making skills :confused:

Secondly, living in fully serviced 5 star accomodation at these cadet schools hardly rates as leaving ones comfort zone.

Apart from that I fully agree with you, the airline is a business seeking to maximise it's profit.

:ok:

[Curved Approach]

grrowler,

Yes I do believe it does, Psych testing is a very technical and evolved process. I do agree with you on the decision making skills side. However maturity is something that will show through in that testing, not myself being a Psych I can not elaborate on this side of things.

Psych testing should indeed be backed up by an interview, and its a shame that not all candidates can be interviewed, this comes down to time and money!

The testing has evolved over many years and it builds a profile of the applicant. I believe that this is then compared to what is seen as what makes a good pilot; presumably based on the profiles of those pilots past and present, senior in the company.

As with all things great pilots are for one reason or another looked over and then there are too those who slip through.

Cheers,

[DutchRoll]

While the topic meanders around......

Grrowler, with respect to the psych test, I can see what you're getting at, and I must confess to being a critic of psychologists in general (snake oil peddlers half of 'em are, I reckon, but you do get the odd good one). However from speaking to people 'in the know', and also to a couple of people who've actually seen their psych results, they say that the psych test in question (which is an industry standard) portrays an uncannily accurate picture of the candidate. It's not perfect, but it uses a lot of tricks (and a lot of questions) to weed out non-genuine answers.

All I can say in fact, was that it was so bloody long that by the half way mark I didn't feel like even thinking about which answer I should or shouldn't put down.

With respect to the industry placement scheme - it's about bloody time and it should've been done ages ago (yes, I know it was in the early years, but it's been in hiatus for quite a while & I don't know why they ever dumped it). I think it will help the end product immensely.

[Johhny Utah]

Sydneyman - an interesting take on things - having an opinion on the QF testing without having the benefit of going through it is one thing, but to label it a joke is probably a bit much. I guess that Rex are a joke as well then? When I went to apply to them several years ago, they were charging $20 - for the privilege of me sending them my resume...?

you need to become a captain to have an quality of life in sydney :confused:

Given that as a SO you can expect to be earning roughly 6 figures, what sort of quality of life are you desiring? Unless your idea of 'quality of life' is lines of Coke & Hookers every night, you can have a very nice lifestyle in Sydney on $100k. After all, how does everyone else living here on average wage (or below) manage to enjoy life?

first choice would be Cathay or somewhere that actually seem to treat staff like people, not numbers!

That's an interesting take on the Honkers situation, especially in light of the events of the last couple of years.

Still, if you really couldn't stomach working for QF because it's so $hit hou$e, feel free - I'm sure there will be plenty of guys willing to take your place...:rolleyes:

[Keg]

Five star accommodation growler? Maybe it appears that way in the brochures, the reality is somewhat different. :(

Personally I found the living at Parafield 'interesting' but I wouldn't call it a 'make or break' deal.

[grrowler]

And while off the topic, why do QF have such a big problem letting you know what's going on with your application? Is it so hard to say "Look, we want you to improve this." or "You need x number of this type of hours" or even "Just go away, we won't waste any more of your time or money."?

I'm sure even those employed by the company would agree that their treatment of prospective employees could be greatly improved.

[Chuck Magutzup]

You blokes out there worrying about whether cadets get a seniority number should be far more concerned about former rejects from Jetscab getting a seniority number ahead of you.

These guys weren't good enough to get a job previously. Now they are back dooring it. And only because they are willing to work for virtually nothing. Fricking frightening. Lives WILL be lost because management have sold out to these pr1cks.

[DutchRoll]

Sydneyman, if you truly want to go & work for Cathay rather than Qantas, be my guest. I have several mates over there and it is no bed of roses, let me tell you. And the ones who quit Cathay to join Qantas can tell you a few stories also.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

chuck baby your a real comedian pal. when all those foreign scabs (yanks, poms, zimbabweans etc,s) joined your beloved airline in 89/90 you welcomed them with open arms and they were taking the jobs of fellow ozzies. now you try and take the high moral ground over another group of fellow ozzies who AIPA threw on the scrap heap.got some bad news for you buddy - just like them foreign scabs the impulse guys will get QF numbers and by the way your carrying on they'll be ahead of you on the seniority list.
dutchy, nothing wrong with CX mate you should give it a go sometime.

[DutchRoll]

No offence intended. Just saying I know quite few who've gone from CX to QF, but none who've gone the other way round (referring to QF mainline here with its associated pay & conditions, incidently).

Live in Honkers? Errr, no thanks. A visit now & then is enough. I hear they've got a good expat rugby scene happening though!;)