New Ldg. fees, Bk

[Boney]

I saw some paperwork today relating to new landings charges throughout Australia.

It was something like $164/Tonne at Camden.

$50/tonne @ YSBK.

You have to see it to believe it, the usual people in know, that is, everyone except the pilot's (engineers, re-fuelers etc.) have copies.

It is supposed to come out in a month or two. Apparently 100% cost recovery user pay (read, aviation bent over by government, yet again) for ATC airports.

This works out be a landing fee for a C152 @ BK, $45 approx. A Chieftain over $150 landing fee.

But a C152 landing at CN would be $140 or something, and a Chieftain's landing fee would be a disgrace.

Has anyone else seen the new pricing structure?

I tried www.airservises.com.au but for some reson could not get on, funny that.

Boney

[Chief Nothingburger]

Yes, got a copy of that one yesterday. We're in the process of 'drafting' our concerns. Our concerns being pretty basic, these costs come in, we close down. :mad:

I am interested to see that the letter states "We would be grateful if you could give us your views under the following headings" These heading being vague and avoiding the issue that the price for some ports increases 800%!!!!:*

[Bevan666]

Boney,

You can't get onto the airservic es website because you cannot spell it.

Try www.airservicesaustralia.com (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com)

(Still doesn't change the fact we are getting bent over a barrel)

Bevan..

[Starts with P]

For a young pilot such as myself (not CPL or anything, but landing a warrior is going to be expensive!) it makes you almost want for the time you could buy an aircraft without a licence and just fly your biplane where ever you wanted and land in some paddock or what-have-you.

I was looking forward to getting old in the GA community, maybe buying my own aircraft one day... But this, I feel, is really going to cripple GA. Paying about a third of an hour hire extra to land at BK or a full hour to land at CN is just not worth it.

why isn't the government doing something about this! It would only cost a few million dollars to fix this problem. It would be chump change to a federal government, but it would mean so much to pilots like me and of course the industry!!!!!!

"Won't somebody think of the children!"

[Icarus2001]

Clearly what they are proposing is indefensible but Starts with a P do not lose heart. Australia is a very big place. There are places where aircraft gather together in packs and roam free. There are plenty of G airspace, no landing fee, no parking fee airports out there. Just not within 30 minutes of the Sydney CBD.

[flyhardmo]

Some of those blokes at airservices must be taking a leaf out of africas book. Its all just a way to make more money and screw the industry. I will start digging graves for all of those companies that go broke or crash because the cost of a landing is a good way towards maintenance.
For those not in the know, in west africa we get charged for overflight fees, landing fees, navigation fee (even if there are no navaids...the guy in the tower is the excuse), handling fees, pax tax, parking and that doesnt incluse the return trip. this alone could cost up to 500USDjust in fees.
:yuk:

[Like This - Do That]

G'day Icarus2001

Not just 30 minutes, but 90 - 120 minutes from Sydney CBD ..... I'd love to live outside Sydney, but my job does not exist outside major capital cities, nor does my wife's job.

I have no choice but to use GAAP airports as there is no alternative. I suspect most people in Sydney are in the same boat.

PPRuNer QSK? suggests GAAP towers will close after the traffic drops to nothing in the related thread (#133556) , allowing lower cost tower-free flying. I think it's more likely that the property developers who are the new owners of BK & CN will sweet talk the government into tearing up the lease conditions. Voila! Another couple of McMansion housing estates!

Gloomily yours ....

[Islander Jock]

LT-DT,
Good point and not only BK and CN, I'd suggest JT and the other GAAP aerodromes will fall into the same basket.

I would be interested to know exactly what out clauses are in the 99 yr leases which would allow the govt to turn around and say "OK the airport is no longer viable, the GA market has taken a turn for the worse, so all you airport owners can now purchase the land outright and develop as you see fit". Creampuff - what are your thoughts on this?

If ever there was a chance for Dick to convince us that he is really a champion of GA then this is his opportunity. But I guess we'll never know what conversations go on behind the closed doors between government ministers, high profile enthusiasts and airport leaseholders.

[Atlas Shrugged]

What is AOPA's position on this?

Atlas

[Bevan666]

Another option would be to ditch the GAAP towers entirely and use a UNICOM type service.

Worked for the Kiwi's at their busiest airport (Ardmore).

Bevan..

[spam]

you can't operate parallel runways without a tower, so imagine th increase in congestion especially without a tower to keep things moving. They tried a CAGRO at Jandakot after tower hours and it had to be stopped when some twit landed on top of someone else. It's like "flashing amber" traffic lights at a busy road intersection. It only takes one idiot to cause carnage. The tower protects us from the idiots. most pilots here don't even know the circuit directions in the MBZ.

this decision has not been made by Airservices, it has been made by the minister for Transport and his mate DS, and the treasurer who chopped the subsidies in the last budget.

[Hornet_26]

Spam,

You should think before opening that big mouth of yours next time, you never know who is reading these posts.

THINK ABOUT IT!

[jangerlingjangerling]

SPAM continue to call it as it is. Hornet 26 chill out mate this is PPRUNE not the australian

[AIRCAB]

Why dont they pay the ATC guys what the average GA pilot earns.:hmm:

[Starts with P]

Sure, pay GAAP/regional controllers like GA pilots... Then pay capital city controllers like Airline captains.

[Starts with P]

...not going to happen is it?

[AIRCAB]

Your not really putting things in to perspective here. They are not the same jobs and shouldnt be payed the same. How much does it cost for pilot v ATC training ? Do you see GA pilots getting paid sick or annual leave RDO's e.t.c ? are you travelling on a daily basis leaving your family behind. Do you get forced to become a sub contractor so you lose all of the above benefits???

Sometimes I get the feeling ATC think that we are in the air for them to make there job easier on the ground... go figure :confused:

I'm Not saying that what you get you dont deserve, but for godsakes stop making it so hard for people to make a buck in aviation.

[Starts with P]

ATC and piloting (either GA or Airline) are very different jobs. If ATC's were paid the same as GA pilots, there would be no one left (*cheers from the crowd because of non-existant terminal fees*).

As a pilot, I am squirming at the new landing fees too. Please remember that it is not the individual controllers that are upping the terminal fees or trying to make it hard to make a buck for pilots.

Also remember that as a GA pilot there is at least the faint hope for everyone of becoming well-paid airline pilots, whereas there is but one employer of ATC in Australia. This is one of many reasons for the conditions of employment for ATCs.

But back to the topic at hand, ATC remuneration is not the topic. Cross-subsidisation is the problem.

[R555C]

Its amazing how the federal government will not support an industry that is critical to the well being of the economy. I supose its like the privatsation of Telstra and Qantas. What we should all do is let the developers move in and take over, and then all move to YSSY. See what sort of problems that would cause there!

Can anyone tell me if Maquarrie airports has a condition on its lease of Sydney that they must provide a service, ie they have to let you land there and park your aircraft? and if so, is the pricing caped by legislation?

[bushy]

We must be prepared to pay a reasonable fee for what we need and use.The days of the freeloader are gone.The main problem with the aviation industry is the commercial skulduggery, trickery, monopolies, subsidies, concessions, dispensations, and government agencies that the industry does not trust. WE SHOULD ALL PAY A REASONABLE FEE FOR WHAT WE USE. NOT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE USES.
Why should I have to pay a fee for firefighting whenever we land a C340 at Ayers Rock or Alice Springs when the operators of Barons, C310's etc do not. I have never asked for RFFS, I do not want, but have to pay for this "service" because the major ailines carry more than 350,000 pax per year into these places. The major airlines should pay for this.
Why should flying schools get free landings? Can I get free landings too?
Why is the remote area subsidy paid to only selected operators? Why do some regional airines get concessions at some airfields.
Can I have a monopoly like Airservices has?
LET'S HAVE A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH ALL THE COSTING EXPOSED, SO THE INEFFICIENCIES CAN BE DEALT WITH.

[Wheeler]

How much would it cost to lease BK Tower and how long would it take to train a few guys and gals to operate it safely? ( I dont mean to become fully qualified ATCO's, just safe operators working in an advisory capacity only - like they do in some other countries)

How much revenue actually eventuates from it?

Let's see, say an average of 1 Warrior every 3 minutes at say $10 a time. Thats about $200 an hour or say $10,000 a week or $500,000 a year - or is that a bit optimistic?

Still, when you consider leasing the place (who owns it BAL or ASA?), say 40K pa + power, etc and employing say half a dozen keen helpful entusiasts at say $40K pa, could it work if ASA are losing so much money and just want to give it away?......

Oh and let's get rid of the silly GAAP rules too.

[Like This - Do That]

The .pdfs supplied on ASA's website show 'asset costs' for Camden over $300k annually! That tower was built something like 25 years ago, wasn't it? How can depreciation of a 25 year old building and the cost of a coffee urn, some 20A fuses and a lawnmower amount to $300k?!?!?!?

Also the equivalent of 1 full time employee = $170k pa. I concede that ATCOs are worth paying well, but $170k for running a tower 2 days week?