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wingtip777
15th Jun 2004, 07:03
hi
the ICAO radiao procedure says if failed in imc then should proceed to destination as planed. so if you have total radio failure just after take off on a flight from LAX TO hongkong. so will you really fly long way to hongkong without any communication to the ground or turn back to land at LAX?

slamer
15th Jun 2004, 10:43
Follow loss of comm's procedure's detailed in Jepp, SQ , then call LAX on the Cell-phone and ask them what they would like you to do!!!!........try not to get shot down in the process, I think you answered your own Question

Roadrunner
15th Jun 2004, 12:57
The basic radio failure rule of just keep on truckin out of here when in IMC, is just so impractical and total BS.
Singapore is the only place I have operated where they have actually sat down and figured out a procedure for radio failure on departure in IMC. They give you the option to keep going, as well as a procedure for return.
One of these days they will change the ruling as I believe it really is crazy/impractical in it's present form.
I asked a local pilot what he would do if he had a complete radio failure on departure NRT to HNL. I said surely you'd turn back rather than complete a 7 hr 180 ETOPS flight, just because the book says continue to destination in IMC. I got the answer I expected, maybe.
With multiple radios, ACARS, satphones and mobiles, hardly a problem these days.
I recon they should replace the radio failure blurb with the local phone number for ATC at each airport so we can ring them directly after we've set 7600 in the unlikely event we have said problem.

Blacksheep
17th Jun 2004, 05:30
If you get a multiple communications radio failure on a modern long range jet transport then you've got more than just a radio problem. Better to identify the real problem, find out what else doesn't work then turn back.

Of course one may be curious enough to wish to experience a truly quiet dark cockpit in mid-ocean ...

wingtip777
17th Jun 2004, 07:58
thanks guys! but i have two questions now?
1.in the morden jet transports, does the mobile have siginals most of the time?

2.if there is no way to get contact with ATC , and we return. that means breaking the procedure . also the ATC would expect us not to come back. so will that cause any conflict and problems?

LEM
17th Jun 2004, 12:32
On widebodies you'll have to dump fuel before returning.

With no contact with ATC, you'll have to decide where to dump, and after a relatively long time in a hold over the sea (possibly), suddenly come back and fly the approach, hoping the ATC makes a good job in separating other traffics...

Interesting.

Old academic question.

Thanks God virtually impossible these days.

If good common sense clearly says completing a long haul flight with no radio is crazy, perhaps more tricky is the scenario in a short haul 737 flight, maybe with an anal retentive controller checking you in the box.

To continue or to come back?
??????????????????????????

I think taking your time is the key for the best solution in this scenario.
Probably I would return if heading outbound, and continue my flight if heading home...

Follow the sid, maintain the last assigned altitude, maintain minimum clean, and when you are far away enough from the mess of the terminal area, slowly make your way to a quiet place where to dump, in the most dirty config allowed for that.

When you are close to MLW, make your way at a slow speed to a long final: that will allow ATC to easily make separations, and that's it.


If you want to continue, do so.
When reaching overhead the field at cruising altitude (!), start descending in the hold and then shoot your approach.

I would do so at a stable 150 knots, for the above reason.