Cosford Airshow

[Yozzer]

Having been browbeaten into taking a nipper to Cosford I was surprised at the lack of the usual RAF SH in the (as always at Cosford) tiny static line up. In fact either I was looking in the wrong spot or there was none!

The Chinook was a welcome re-entry into the flying programme though, but not only no SH but no DHFS cabs in the static either.

The much hyped Typhoon was underwhelming and if compared to a recollection of Lightning days; positively pathetic.

What no Nimrod!

The RAF spend a bl00dy fortune on BBMF and Red Arrows when a set piece with C130 - SH - RAF Regt/Army -smoke & bangs could do so much to make the services profile higher. Being in the summer as opposed to the first week of sept makes Cosford an RAF "At home" day, were the public can relate to the services that we all take for granted. There is irony that I believe that the audience was three times+ the size of the combined RAF from home and abroad. Whoever is pulling the PR strings wants a P60 on the way out, for the AAC - Utterly Butterly - and large scale models put the RAF to shame today:

Rant over, I`ll get me coat

[BEagle]

Remember the days when the only civvie aircraft flying at RAF At Home days were the odd pleasure flier or two??

It is just sooooo utterly pathetic nowadays......

[Nige321]

You were lucky....

Apparently thousands never got in - At one point there was a nine mile queue...

I have to aggree though, the content was poor.

Nige

[Shackman]

Ah

But the Harvard display at Shawbury this afternoon (pre/post Cosford?) was quite pleasant in an old fashioned way. AND there were no queues!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Have to agree with you Yozzer,

I was at Cosford, and I think it was probably the worst 'subscribed' airshow I have ever attended.
What was it in tghe line up?...
a plastic Reds hawk,
a Plastic Tonka,
a dead Jag
a real Gnat
oh and an AAC Apache and a gazelle.
The Wokka display was good, but that was all I thought.
Come on Cosford, pull your finger out for next year otherwise people will vote with their feet, and another 'at home' airshow will bite the bullett.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[hairyclameater]

Cosford (as are most air shows)is supported by and organised for the general public - not aviation minded "enthusiasts". spotters, crew etc etc. So as long as THEY like it and I believe they did, the show will continue. The GP are far more likely not to return due to the traffic chaos, NOT the lack of aircraft.As for the static line up, the show has a huge static display for the crowds to walk around, unfortunately its all under cover and ancient!

[JimmyTAP]

I was there as well and I agree with some of the above. I've been to many airshows (my first was Leuchars 1971) but this was my first time at Cosford. I thought the logistics part , parking, entry/exit was pretty well organized ( much better than Fairford for example).

I agree that the static display was a bit grim but I can appreciate that there is not a lot of space for a static display and many aircraft can't land there anyway. You could argue that the best static display is in the splendid museum anyway.

I did think it did have the atmosphere of an old "At home" day and I thought there was fairly decent RAF content compared to recent years with good displays by the C-130J, Sea King, Tornado, Harrier and Jaguar.
The Typhoon was however "pathetic" and the disappointment could be felt in the crowd " Was that it".
I think the UK taxpayer deserves better than this. The project has been subject to lots of flak recently and this sort of display (and I use the word reluctantly) doesn't help.
The displays just before of the Grob Tutor and Bucker were much better and much appreciated in the crowd.
The amount of civilian content is a fact of life these days but I also remember the days when the only civilian aircraift were the pleasure flights or perhaps Ferranti's Meteor!

Another rant complete bar the shouting

JT

[jayteeto]

It looks like we had a better display at shawbury!! Shackman, did you see the Jaguar run and break?? Delightful.... I will never accuse Jag mates of any sexuality crimes again...
The crowd here, waited and waited for the Typhoon to return and when it ambled in, they were thoroughly disappointed. Mind you, we shouldn't complain... the ticket prices were much cheaper!!

[hairyclameater]

Shackman- no Harvard at Cosford so you had a one off there.
Did the Typhoon operate and return to Shawbs???

[Tiger_mate]

Had the Typhoon done at Cosford what it did departing Shawbury today, everybody would have been impressed:
RESPECT

Airborne in about 1000` sat on its ar5e and hightailed outa there. I struggle to believe that this could not have been done in front of the taxpayers on sunday.

Lightning gets my vote at this time, but I can see airshow potential there.

[Shackman]

TM

Couldn't agree more - airborne by the Brown House and then nearly vertical - v. impressive. Almost as good as the Lightning. Even the Jag two ship looked good on their departure - and that's after two years at Colt.

If the Typhoon (are we allowed to call it the Tiffy yet?) could do it today, it's a shame it didn't yesterday in front of the crowds. However, as I don't know the display rules/Release to Service it's operating under I don't have enough informed opinion to say more.


** Pertama **

[propwash866]

The RAF Typhoon's not got a display auth yet so it couldn't actually do a full air display at Cosford, which is why it only did a couple of flypasts. Disappointing I know but that was unfortunately the best it was allowed to do. Furthermore it's only appearing at 5 displays this year! As for more Airforce kit in the lineup, what more did you want??? With the exception of GR4 we had every front line fighter aircraft the RAF fly, as well as the first Chinook display in 10 years!
Any issues of static displays, well just think about it; what can land/depart at Cosford? Besides, there were scores of static aircraft in situ at the RAF museum, any more and Joe Public would most likely have found him/herself rather bored.
In my view, the day went as well as can be expected. Sympathies to all those stuck in the nightmarish traffic though, but 18,000 cars down Neachly Lane? Not a lot Cosford could do about that either.

Counter-rant over.

[JimmyTAP]

propwash866

I think I agree with most of what you said ( or you agreed with me) but as far as the Typhoon goes the punters don't know about display authorizations etc and several tens of thousands of taxpayers (me included) went home disappointed.
Perhaps it should have been mentioned by the commentator. Could the "display" have been performed twice maybe?
Compared to the the other RAF displays on the day it looked a bit short.

Supplementary rant over

JT

[Tiger_mate]

The argument that Cosfords static line-up consists of Museum aircraft had some integrity in the days that the museum charged an entrance fee. It has no kudos now, for many have visited the museum often.

There is no excuse for the appalling line up of overgrown airfix kits and broken aeroplanes on a show that charges a £35 entrance fee. As for "With the exception of GR4 we had every front line fighter aircraft the RAF fly" What the F3 & Typhoon?? That shows how little the air force has become, but where were Nimrod / GR4 / E3d / Puma / Merlin / BAe 146 / VC10 / TriStar / C17 / ATC Glider (Vigilant) / Firefly / Squirral / Griffin / King Air / Dominie / Band of the RAF / RAF Regt / Queens Colour Sqn /

.....and with the BA influence amongst the museum exhibits, why did BA not contribute to the flying day.

[propwash866]

Tiger_mate,

First, lets set a few things straight. The tickets cost £12 for an adult, a £35 ticket would get a family of 2 adults and 3 kids in, do the maths and you'll find that's fairly reasonable, especially as all proceeds have gone to charity.

Moving on to your comments about the lineup, lets address statics first. 2 main concerns, first of which is runway. Cosford's is all of in the region of 4000 ft, not many RAF aircraft can fit on that, save helicopters and light aircraft. There was a tutor on display, which leaves the firefly which was not present. DHFS helicopters were present both flying and static, albeit primarily for transport and operational reasons. Second issue; where exactly do you intend to park said static displays? Cosford, you may have noticed, is not particularly large.

In terms of the flying lineup, you forgot the Harrier, Hawk and Jaguar which, together with the aforementionned GR4 and other aircraft that were displaying, make up all front line fast jets we have. As for the others you mentioned, since when did the vigilant go to war? Had you seen one fly (at 55kts, by volunteers NOT display pilots) you'd agree it is not airshow material. Similar things can be said for the BaE 146/ E3d etc, in fact to such an extent that none of these have display crews. A Nimrod was included but had to pull out 2 days before the show for operational reasons. The display Canberra PR9 has only got one engine and so unfortunately could not be there. The Band of the Royal Air force were in fact at Cosford.

As for British Airways, imagine the cost of flying a b737/747/A321 to Cosford, insuring for a display and crewing it. Now put that cost to a profit making organisation such as BA. Ask the punters if they really want to see a 737 flying down the runway and see what you get.

In terms of fulfilling its purpose of a family day out with a good variety of displaying aircraft, Cosford's display lineup was reasonable. In terms of satisfying an airliner spotter, maybe it was lacking.

Case rested. :mad:

[bigley]

One major omission was the RAF Police dog display team. Where were they????

[Zlin526]

I heard that the Royal Army Pay Corps put in a brief attendance!:8

[Beeayeate]

Didn't get to Cosford but. . .

The display Canberra PR9 has only got one engine and so unfortunately could not be there.

Was a time when the RAF had more than one spare aircraft - and more than one spare Avon. :{

The Band of the Royal Air force were in fact at Cosford.

This makes everything all right then. :hmm:

[Reichman]

The was never going to be a Canberra PR9 at Cosford.

[Yozzer]

Whilst I endorse comments made about the poor line up of aircraft in the static park, one thing absent this year was a collection of museum aircraft out in the daylight for a change (Gnat being an exception) because the area where it normally happened was full of spotters checking out the latest Japanese imports. The Honda roadster was quite nice though:rolleyes:

Shame Air Antiques Twin Pioneer didnt do a circuit or two for it would have outshone the Typhooon. .....and I reckon that the Falcon (para) that had alleged pyro trouble simply missed the stack and banged out; or at least thats what it looked like to me.

The RAF Police Dogs, I knew I had forgotten something :{

Am I right in thinking that RAFGSA have a pair of gliders that can do a resonable 5 mins?

Do post Ramstein rules forbid Airfield Attacks nowadays?

A good airshow has at least 500 car alarms going off at the same time, and lets face it; that did not happen on this occasion.

[Grob Driver]

Propwash,
I’m afraid your arguments don’t hold true! This years ‘line up’ was utter sh1te! I appreciate that there’s a big limitation in terms of runway length and limited parking, but it’s worked in previous years. Why not drag out some of the aircraft stuffed behind the hangar… a real tornado rather than some plastic mock-up, what about the Dominies just sat there… get them out on show. Even some of the museum aircraft were tucked away out of view. The whole thing was a real disappointment. They’ve just had the new restoration building put up in the last few years… Why not open it up and show people what is going on, and how these aircraft are restored. All in all I thought it was just a visit to the museum with a bit of flying thrown in. A real disappointment. And it was £15…. Not £12!

[hairyclameater]

Reichman - Is that true?? It was listed in the flying programme (I had expected the private B2/6) Is there a PR9 display worked up or was it to be a couple of PR runs??

[propwash866]

PR9 - Was in the programme (civvie owned I admit, programmers got it wrong) was going to be there but, as said before they couldn't get a spare engine.

Yozza, didn't you see the amount of smoke pouring from that falcon's leg? Appreciate that technical faults do sometimes happen and don't make unfounded slurs on the professionalism of our Armed Forces Display teams.

Grob Driver, no dominies at Cosford, sorry mate. So, in light of your comments how would you have organised things???

[Reichman]

The PR9 may well have been in the programme. But it was never going to be there and there isn't a PR9 flying display. There is no civvie PR9, only a B2/6 and that isn't flying at any shows this year. There will be a PR9 static at Kemble.

Reichman

[Beeayeate]

Reichman

What's become of their T.4 then - "The Blue One"? Is it still awaiting Avons? Any comment?

[Reichman]

One T4 serviceable. Blue one should be flying mid July.

[Wycombe]

.....way back in the past (ok, '91 - just after GW1), I distinctly remember being thrown around in the back of K Albert (and driven out the back at high speed :O ) during a Tac Demo at said Airfield.

But, then the mighty 130 is of course a tactical aircraft :ok:

[Grob Driver]

Propwash

I’m so sorry… when I was posting my last reply, I did so on the understanding that you were somehow involved with Cosford, and would therefore know what airframes are there!

“No Dominies at Cosford”

Well my dear chap, next time you’re on the airfield, my I suggest you open your eyes a little for I know of at least two! I forget what number it is, but the hangar which had the robot wars in it... Walk through that hangar and look out the back! A handful for tornado’s and Jaguars, two Sea Kings (Navy ones at that!!) and a couple of Dominies. So, I raise the question once more, why couldn’t the RAF drag out some of the airframes they have at Cosford (Including a Dominie!) for people to see?

In fact, a quick look here Dominies (http://www.raf.mod.uk/cosford/maintacs.html) shows that there are 6 Dominies at Cosford!

Also, what’s the reason for closing the restoration hangar? The whole show looked to me like they just couldn’t be bothered. It’s a shame… It’s normally a very nice show to visit!

[SPIT]

Hi
I reacon why the Typhoon display (if you could call it that) was so short is because they can only AFFORD ONE and that has to limit flight hours at displays in case it is ever needed.
The Chinook was brill and at one point I thought the C130 was going to roll, it was very very impressive.:O :O

[dinoorin]

Propwash,
Some good points - however, please don't be so negative towards the so called 'volunteers not display pilots' as regards the vigilant.
As an ex 'professional' pilot of various types and now a 'volunteer' with the Vigilant I can say that the airframe is the limitation (however I'm sure the Wrights would have been pleased with 55Kt climb, 90 Kt cruise) and not the pilot ability, from what I have seen so far the average VGS pilot is very motivated and profesional.
Personally I think that it would be nice to see some of my volunteer comrades flying alongside the 'display pilots'
So long and short of it - lets not be sniffy - we all try to aviate some just get bigger toys than others.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Propwash,

Did you go to Cosford airshow this year??? I'm not convinced you did, you see, because you make some pretty glaring errors in your posting:

'First, lets set a few things straight. The tickets cost £12 for an adult' - wrong, the tickets were, as Grob Driver says, £15.00

'especially as all proceeds have gone to charity' - wrong, I think you'll find a big chunk goes to the museum (but no complaints with that, its ALL a good cause to me)

'first of which is runway. Cosford's is all of in the region of 4000 ft, not many RAF aircraft can fit on that, save helicopters and light aircraft' - wrong, what about C-130's as in previous years?

'Cosford, you may have noticed, is not particularly large' - nearly wrong! yes its not your Waddo or Brize, but it is certainly big enough to display a lot more static than it did.

I'm not too sure about your comments regarding BAe146 and E-3d and war?? I'd go along with you on the 146, but the E-3D?? come on, you must be having a laugh old boy. I can speak from a position of experience here and tell you the the E-3D world (of which I was one) were the first into Bosnia/Kosavo and the last ones out. The same goes for Afghanistan and Gulf War 2.

My biggest winge, and those of others here, is that Cosfords constraints and limitations are well understood by most people. What is NOT understood is why they couldn't be bothered to wheel out some of the 'more routine' exhibits like the Dominies, like the RN Sea Kings, the REAL Tornados etc. etc. aswell as open up that new restoration hangar.

And lastly, the Vigilant may not whizz round and 450kts with its tail on fire, but so what? It was there, and I for one would rather watch a Vigilant flying around, albeit at 55 kts, than nothing at all. So well done to the volunteers!


Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a glass of Grouse for the Volunteers I think!'

[ACW 335]

As for the others you mentioned, since when did the vigilant go to war? Had you seen one fly (at 55kts, by volunteers NOT display pilots) you'd agree it is not airshow material

The vigilant flies at 60kts, but probably did its display at 90kts. And whats wrong with volunteers? They are probably more capable of flying it than most. Quite a few of the volunteers are serving RAF personnel, some are pilots. Some are civvy pilots as well. Many of the volunteers have thousands of hours on the vigilant.

I'm a volunteer. Be careful what you say.

Oh and by the way, In Australia, the vigilant equivalent over there is used for photo recce, not just to train young people to fly.

[propwash866]

Monkeyboy,

You need to get your own facts straight before you whine at me for messing up. Tickets were £12 if bought in advance, although they were £15 on the gate.

Yes, half the proceeds do go to the RAF museum, which is a registered charity so my argument holds true.

My statememt earlier was not directed at E3D's and the like and was purely designed to emphasise my earlier point that we had a vast majority of RAF Fast Jet aircraft. Read the posts carefully and I'm sure you'll see where I was coming from.

If you were at Cosford you'd have seen the C-130 K and J models both land successfully on the runway. Not a problem. Now try and find a combination of somewhere to park (baring in mind that we could not use the grass surfaces for heavies) and somebody to bring one in.

Agreed it would have been nice to see the restoration hangar open, not sure why it couldn't be but I'm sure if you phone the museum they'll give you an explanation.

ACW 335, I think you'll find you now use 55kts in the Vig. As a vig driver AND a serving pilot myself I have nothing to say against the work of the VGS crews, except to point out that no, you don't have auth to fly a display. To get that you'd have to go in front of the participation comittee and have relevant insurance etc. Anyway, can you see that great World Avgas (Not Kerosene) Executive Retailer allowing anyone to chandelle HIS babies at 100ft? ;)

The VGS at Cosford applied to fly a couple of cadets in the morning before the show as a kind of role demo, but it was decided that despite the good PR it would have given the VGS and the Air Cadets in general, it was not feasible.

[ACW 335]

ACW 335, I think you'll find you now use 55kts in the Vig. As a vig driver AND a serving pilot myself I have nothing to say against the work of the VGS crews, except to point out that no, you don't have auth to fly a display. To get that you'd have to go in front of the participation comittee and have relevant insurance etc. Anyway, can you see that great World Avgas (Not Kerosene) Executive Retailer allowing anyone to chandelle HIS babies at 100ft?

Being more current than you (if you are who i am thinking of), i think you will find that its still 60kts S+L and 55kts for climb attitude. World Avgas (Not Kerosene) Executive Retailer is more than up for doing a display. Moose did a display at Halton in one. They get some form of display auth from HQAC - more like permission to display.
And no...i wouldnt chandelle a vigilant at 100ft!Maybe at 500ft at the least!

You still at cosford? or are you holding somewhere else?

[Spot 4]

As the thread drifts away from a disappointing day towards the ATC, my opinion is that: A huge ammount of teenage boys and girls present in and out of uniform were probably cadets. To state to parents with an encouragable level of pride: "See that mum/dad; thats what we do" is essential. I have seen the formation glider display which I think is RAFGSA and it is good albeit quiet! but with smoke from the wingtips and the skills required to complete such a display without power is admirable.

If Cosford cannot cope with a display then send it somewhere that can, Hi Shawbury!! I have seen town shows with more military appeal then Cosford had this weekend, and the Army / TA / Regt are the people with most public interaction.

In view of recent celebrations, the Dakota and C130 could have completed a Para drop with (amazingly) the parachute regiment; for with a ground display in attendance this would have raised their profile and recruitment stats. Are there still RAF Regt paras?

Were where the rocks with Rapier, or have they gone to? If George Dubya and mates are our big buddies, where were they?

As for airliners being a non starter, that is rubbish, and Mr Branson and others have done exactly that at other shows.

For those here emotionally involved in the running of this years show, take it on the chin: You let the public and yourselves down; listen to the debrief and get it sorted next year, for good bad or indifferant, I and thousands of others will return.

Asta La Vista

[Grob Driver]

Propwash, and still no Dominies! (In fact… not even a comment on Dominies… or Sea Kings, or Real Tornados!!!) The whole show was a big disappointment!

Cosford may not have the largest aprons in the airforce, but a bit of thought and forward planning would go a long way! How about getting rid of all those bl00dy cars parked in between the hangars (who actually goes to an air show to buy a car anyway?) and get some aircraft in there. I think a harrier can manage with 40’, never mind 4000’!!!! get a herc in there too, and a couple of helicopters, and suddenly it stars looking alike an air show. If I want a car, I’ll either go to my local dealer or visit the motor show… not RAF Cosford!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Propwash,

'MonkeyBoy' eh? well I'll take that as a compliment, although I'm sure it wasn't meant as such.
I wont waste my time with your trivial explantions.
Yes I was at Cosford, but I didn't see either of the Hercs' but what the heck!
It WAS a poor show, of that there can be no argumant. The sad part is that it didn't need to be. RAF Cosford could and should have done a great deal more, and unless they pull their socks up, I fear that the public will simply vote with their feet

Kind regards
The Swinging MonkeyBoy!!!'

[DICKY the PIG]

I can't speak for the others, but the absence of the Nimrod was due to manpower issues I'm afraid. We simply didn't have enough instructors to teach the students and fly the display, one event had to go.......students come first. Sorry to disappoint:(

[who said green on]

The Falcon mentioned earlier did have a smokes problem (they dont lie in front of the others they only get caught out)
and the hercs where there unfortunately not as static displays bit difficult when 2 are already doing flying displays or para dropping( RAF Falcons display team).

[Cat.S]

Well my wife and I enjoyed ourselves! Although the Typhoon was a major diappointment, the Eurostars made up for it. Traffic management into the venue was a joke though. It took longer to get from the M54 roundabout to the field than it did to get to the roundabout from Wigan and this was at 0930!
Did anyone else notice the release of a load of racing pigeons from somewhere around right base during the Army Historic display? That could have been tragic had had it happened during some of the displays as quite a few aircraft took that route.

[Swifty_N]

In reply to propwash about the Vigilant as a member of 633 VGS who did the static display of our 5 109s i'd like to point out that although they may not 'go to war' is that all flying is about??? I believe not,

How about the chance for a 16 year old to fly solo, or the 13 year old who has never flown before being introduced into the world of aviation. Before you type out these messages maybe think about the subject in hand. The Vig wasnt built for war, it was built to train and teach.Tthis it does extremely well. Also as a 19 year old student it is a great privilege to be able to take fellow ATC cadets into the air and hopefully plant the seed for the future.

Hi to all other Vigilant and Viking drivers out there!

And thanks to 'The Swinging Monkey' for the prasie, much appreciated.

[dinoorin]

Very good reply Mr Swift.
Its nice to see a good mature response from one of the younger members of staff.
All others out there - please remember it is for people like swifty_n that the VGS exists. Not for our own personal ego's as suggested by another thread.
Safe landings all.