CC and number of pax

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Hopefully someon on this forum will know the answer to this question, as on the flight deck we weren't too sure.

Recently on a 737-300 with 148 seats, and 3 CC (i.e 1 for each group of 50 seats), we had 148 adults and 3 infants, total of 151.

Were we legal with 3 CC (which is how we departed), meeting the requirements for the number of seats, or should we have taken 4 CC for the 151 pax?

[GARDENER]

On UK regs I thought it was based on seats. I stand to be corrected :O

[flymeboy]

Hello!

To the best of my knowledge, I think it is one crew member for every 50, or fraction of 50 pax seats installed on the aircraft. As infants on parents laps don't have their "own" seat, you don't need the additonal crew.

Please correct me if thats wrong!

FMB XX

[richxby]

Yeah thats right, CAA regulations states mimimum of 1 crew to every 50 pax seats, likewise if you had a 150 seat aircraft say but only 50 pax, you would still need 3 crew! Its to do with safety and the number of exits!

[KTPops]

That's how I have always understood it. 1 CC for every 50 seats, I presume that's why infants are counted as +1's as they are extra?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Thanks everyone, you seem to agree with what we thought.But is there a limit on the no. of infants? What would happen if 148 mums and 148 infants were booked?

[flapsforty]

Without knowing UK regs, I'd say that'd be a no no because of the number of O2 masks on the 737 for starters.

[sinala1]

Also of concern would be the number of infant life jackets you carry on board... On our 737's we can carry no more than 15 infants as thats how many infant life jackets we carry, but that number reduces depending on the load. With us, my understanding is that if you have a full load, then you can carry an extra 5% of the a/c capacity as infants - eg a 737-800 with 180 pax on board can carry 5% extra as infants - so thats 9 infants. But because a/c layouts vary so much, we have tables to refer to should the need arise!

And as far as infants pushing you over your cc : pax ratio, again its my understanding that the ratio of cabin crew to pax is based on the number of seats occupied
Cheers :ok:

[CD]

And as far as infants pushing you over your cc : pax ratio, again its my understanding that the ratio of cabin crew to pax is based on the number of seats occupied...

Australia and Canada are the only two countries that base the cabin crew ratio on the number of passengers actually on board (1:36 passengers in Australia and 1:40 passengers in Canada). All other regulatory authorities base the ratio on the number of passenger seats installed.

In Canada, we have an advisory circular that addresses the issue of the number of infants that can be carried. Guidance is provided as follows:

In order to ensure a consistent passenger count procedure for infants, the inclusion of infants in the passenger count conducted on board Canadian commercial aircraft is as follows:

* An infant secured in a lap-held position by a parent or guardian passenger is not counted as a passenger for purposes of determining the minimum number of flight attendants required on board an aircraft, and the maximum number of occupants authorized to be on board an aircraft. However, the infant is counted as a passenger for purposes of applying regulatory requirements such as those pertaining to oxygen, life preservers and survival equipment.

* An infant secured in a restraint system is counted as a passenger for purposes of determining the minimum number of flight attendants required on board an aircraft, determining the maximum number of occupants authorized to be on board an aircraft, and applying regulatory requirements such as those pertaining to oxygen, life preservers and survival equipment.

Advisory Circular 0116 - Infant Passenger Count (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0116.htm)

[Dogs_ears_up]

My lot go with 1 CC per 50 or part, however on certain types, the number of exits drives the requirement for a higher number of CC than the 1 per 50 rule.
Infants? - we go for 10%, not included in the 1 per 50 calc. The max number if infants is limited (I think) by the CAA and practically on the day, by the number of infant restraint belts and also infant flotation devices carried on the aircraft - both of which amount to the 10% figure by a strange coincidence!

[Puritan]

AVCP - I think that you will find the answer you require in your company ‘Operations Manual / Parts A & B’. These manuals should be available to you in your crew room(s), and aboard the aircraft ( usually in the flight deck ) wherein they, along with parts C, D, and E, govern everything which you and you airline should be doing, i.e. ‘by the book’ so to speak.

So that you can get the idea as to how the information is spread out, I’ve précised for you ( see below ) the relevant sections, w.r.t. your question, from my own employers / Astraeus’ Ops Manual Part A ( though do check in your company’s, lest there be differences to ours ) : 4.1.2 - Cabin Crew - Minimum Complement

On a flight on which at least one passenger is carried, there shall be carried not less than one cabin crew member for every 50, or fractions of 50 passenger seats installed in the aircraft. The minimum number of cabin crew for the Astraeus 737 is 3.So what happens if you get down route and one of your cabin crew companions is unable to operate the flight, e.g. they’re feeling unwell ?4.1.2.1 - Cabin Crew - Reduced Complement

4.1.2.1.1 Commercial Flights - In exceptional circumstances, away from base and with the Captain’s agreement, a flight may be operated with 2 cabin crew subject to the following conditions: Owing to unforeseen circumstances there are no other cabin crew available to operate the flight.
The maximum passenger load is 70, to be seated near the forward doors, ensuring that the aircraft is in trim according to the loadsheet Centre of Gravity position.
The crew includes an Astraeus qualified Senior Cabin Crew member.
Cabin crew positions are Cabin Crew No 1 – door 1L inboard; Cabin Crew No 2 – door 2R inboard.
The reduced flight complement is authorised by the Operations Director. So what about infants ?8.1.7 - Mass and Centre of Gravity
8.1.7.1 Definitions

(e) Passenger classification
(iii) Infants – persons who are less than 2 years of age. 8.8.5 - Use Of Oxygen Equipment

8.8.5.5 As there are four oxygen masks available above each triple row of seats on Astraeus aircraft the carriage of infants is restricted to one per row.As you can see, ( on a B737 ) you would normally have a minumum of three cabin crew, i.e. 1 per 50 pax - though if down route, and subject to certain provisos, you can operate with less.

It's been put to me ( by one of my cabin crew colleagues ) that the 10% infants to pax ratio, as was specified by CAP360, has now been superseeded by JAR and is now an equipment requirement, i.e. not withstanding the limit on available O2 masks, the number of infants is limited by the number of extension seatbelts and infant lifejackets that are carried onboard.

In Astraeus' case we normally, on the B737, only carry 16 extension seatbelts and 16 infant lifejackets and thus we could only carry 16 infants.... that is unless we knew in advance wherein we would be able to equip with more extension seatbelts & lifejackets.... the ultimate limit then being the O2 masks restriction, i.e. one infant per row ( i.e. 25 rows, so no more than 25 infants ).

W.r.t. the O2 masks above each seat row, the point here is that if, say, you as cabin crew are caught mid-cabin during a de-pressurisation - and if every row had one infant sitting in it - there is sufficient O2 masks for the pax, the infants, and for you too to don.

Nb. Some B737's have three O2 masks on one side of the aisle and four O2 masks on the other side, and in this instance the carriage of infants is further restricted / reduced and wherein the infant must be seated (with parent) on the side of the aisle that has four O2 masks - the idea here is that there is always a mask available for the pax & their infants and, most importantly, that there's one within reach for YOU !

Hope this helps.

[sinala1]

Quote:

"Australia and Canada are the only two countries that base the cabin crew ratio on the number of passengers actually on board (1:36 passengers in Australia and 1:40 passengers in Canada). All other regulatory authorities base the ratio on the number of passenger seats installed."

CD - reading that surprised me! I thought "oh sh*t what have I been doing" so went and had a look at the Civil Aviation Safety Authority website, and went through the Civil Aviation Orders (the regulations that apply to australian aviation). Found this in section 6.2 of CAO 20.16.3 http://casa.gov.au/download/orders/Cao20/201603.pdf

"the number of cabin attendants need not be increased when infants or children are carried and the total number of passengers exceeds that permitted by the number of cabin attendants, provided that:

(a) The number of excess passengers does not exceed five percent (to the next highest whole number); and
(b) the excess passengers are infants or children

I hope that my understanding of this CAO is correct, and that it makes things a little clearer regarding australian operations!

Cheers :ok:

[myflybhx]

Well we have a 10% rule and stick to that there for a/c holding 180pax 18 infs. Only have this number of belts and jackets. But to be honest never had that many on a flight!

[Twin Star]

As far as I am concerned I would confirm what most of you have said, 1 CC per 50 pax seats.

Btw one pax seat is for one adult or children but infants do not count therefore.

So you were legal IMHO.

Otherwise, for example you have 151 or more pax seats but less than 150 pax you still need for CC.

Maybe therefore apply any exceptions. In our company we would be allowed to fly a B737-400 (167 seats) or a B737-800 (184 seats) with only 3 CC when we do not have more than 150 paxes and block the rest of the seats.
Not sure if we are allowed to dispatch this way (the company does not) or this rule is only for the "emergency case" when eg one CC becomes ill ...

There's no prob with the oxygen, for every seat row the oxygen of the number of seats plus 1 can be supplied. The reason therefore is that infants do not have their own seat or a CC might be on the aisle.

[panda-k-bear]

My time working on certification items in cabin configurations leads me to agree - it is legal as the basis is by qty of seats, but is practically limited by the No. of O2 masks available (flaps, don't forget that O2 boxes (should!) carry more masks than qty of seats - the issue comes if you have more than 1 infant in any 1 seat row). This would be written into airline SOPs somewhere. However, strictly legally it is OK.