Budget flights turn expensive

[Wirraway]

Wed "Herald Sun"

Budget flights turn expensive
Liam Houlihan
09jun04

BUDGET airline Jetstar left six passengers stranded far from home and out of pocket after they missed a check-in time by minutes yesterday.

The frustrated would-be flyers were fuming at the hardline 30-minute check-in deadline, saying their delays were caused by holdups at Melbourne Airport.

"I'm totally disgusted," said Stan Bednarek.

"We were five minutes behind time because we were held up queuing at a slow machine for a Tullamarine pass.

"We get up to the terminal and we're told, 'Oh sorry, we can't get you on'," he said.

The six Newcastle-bound passengers were told their money would not be returned and they would have to buy new tickets if they wanted to get home.

All six arrived at least 25 minutes before the flight's scheduled departure at 11.45am.

Jetstar insists check-in must occur 30 minutes before departure and not a minute later.

The Bednarek family, who visited Melbourne for a break and a spot of shopping, said their holiday was ruined by the fiasco.

Mr Bednarek, his wife Cheryl and daughter Melanie lost their $39 Jetstar fares and were forced to buy three $117 Qantas tickets to Sydney and then hire a car to get to Newcastle -- a total cost of about $600 to get home.

Sindy Hoeve said she was minutes late because she was directed to the wrong airport.

"We rang up over the phone and the lady told us to go to Avalon. So we went to Avalon and then they told us to go to Tullamarine. We were not even five minutes late."

Rosalie Harding, who planned to meet her daughter in Newcastle yesterday, was left fuming.

She planned to get connecting trains home that would cost her almost double the price of her wasted $77 Jetstar ticket.

Deborah Winnell had no such game plan. "I don't know what I'm going to do," she said.

Ms Winnell said her Jetstar flight to Melbourne was an hour late. "It's apparently OK for them to be an hour late but not for us to be five minutes late," she said.

The disgruntled passengers vented their anger to Jetstar service manager Keith King for 10 minutes before giving up.

"It's hard and fast 30 minutes," Mr King said of the check-in rule.

Jetstar, a fortnight old yesterday, started to clamp down on tardy travellers from Saturday, Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said.

"We are not being draconian. People are well informed of these aspects of our operation. We allowed a level of flexibility over the first week and a half because we were a new airline," he said.

Qantas also specifies customers should check in 30 minutes before departure time.

But a Qantas spokesman said passengers would not lose their seats if they were a couple of minutes late.

Mr Westaway said the empty seats were not resold, but were occasionally given to Jetstar employees.

He said yesterday's events were an isolated incident.

==========================================

[turbinejunkie]

Great stuff!

how to woo punters and influence them - not!!!! :}

Anyone who's checked in at Melbourne would know it can be a nightmare at busy times in particular.

To get to the check-in desk 25 mins before departure and be told 'sorry, but we can't get you on' would be more what you'd expect of outfits the likes of Ryanair.

Very shabby treatment.

"LET'S GO JETSTAR!!":rolleyes: :yuk:

(they could probably make a good Kath and Kim segment out of it though).....:E

TJ:ok:

[Kaptin M]

"That'll learn ya - ya f@kas!!"

Jet* is obviously out to teach ALL of those Aussies who have NEVER flown before in their lives, a lesson they NEVER forget!!

"You get your @sses onboard, or we'll leave without yo!"

But the odds are, these people have NEVER flown with an Australian domestic airline in th past 5 years, and that once they've completed their current return journey, they're UNlikely to fly again for at least ANOTHER 5 years - unless they have a "pleasant and rewarding" fkight experience, that encourages them to return!" (Of which 62% sid they MOST definitely WOULD.)!

But go on "instructing" them J* - you are happily stimulating the VB market!!

[Wirraway]

Tues "Hobart Mercury"

Long wait for Jetstar passengers

ANGRY Jetstar travellers criticised the discount airline yesterday for its handling of a 4 1/2 hour delay for their flight from Hobart.

The Melbourne flight was delayed from 10am until about 2.30pm because of an equipment breakdown.

About 100 people waited in the departure lounge while a part was flown from Melbourne to repair the master display unit in the cockpit.

Passengers complained of a lack of information about the delay from the fledgling budget carrier.

For Rob and Georgia Kruimink, of Grove, the time spent waiting meant they could not spend the day with their son in Melbourne.

"It is dreadful," Mr Kruimink said.

"We were going over today to have the day with him because he works tomorrow.

"We have just had to sit the whole time and wait."

They had been waiting since 8.30am.

They said that the situation was not frequently updated and they did not know when the flight would depart.

Paul and Tara Gilchrist, of Melbourne, said it was the second Jetstar flight they had been on which had been delayed.

They were heading home after a weekend camping in Tasmania.

Mrs Gilchrist said they were not even offered a drink while they were waiting.

"I guess you get what you pay for," she said.

Tony Hale, of Hobart, was another traveller frustrated by the long delay.

"It's their second week of operation and they've got a jet that doesn't work," he said.

"It's outrageous and is the first and last time I will fly with them."

Jetstar manager of corporate relations Simon Westerway said a master display unit had to be replaced in the cockpit of the plane.

"It is very unfortunate but these things happen," he said.

"We regret any inconvenience to any passengers."

He said the aircraft were normally very reliable and it was the first disruption to its services in Tasmania.

Other Jetstar flights left Hobart as normal yesterday but could not accommodate the waiting passengers because they were already full.

Yesterday's incident was the latest problem for Jetstar since it started service to Tasmania on April 25.

The carrier has been criticised for its strict 30-minute check-in rule in which passengers lose their booking if they are not in the check-in line at least 30 minutes before departure.

There have also been concerns about flight scheduling to the state.

=========================================
Tues "Herald Sun"

Kids the new high flyers

TRUST an enterprising kid to find a scam. The way Jetstar is organised, families with kids in tow get to board the el-cheapo wing of Qantas first.

So some of the more enterprising kids heading off on holiday with mum, dad and their brothers or sisters have been hiring themselves out to kidless travellers.

Once aboard, with an exchange of the folding stuff having been done, the little smarties rejoin the real family.

=========================================

[Skyway]

Perhaps this is QF's stupid little boys club way of getting the loads up on the kanga planes. Why don't they use TWB as destination for BNE? Cessnock for Sydney, perhaps Tindal for Darwin, Mareeba for CNS, Kalgoorlie for Perth, Tullarmarine for Hobart, then offer CONX where if your a minute late they will act like easyjet and the airline show. Bunch of bloody ( 's).

[trainer too 2]

A good example of you get what you pay for.

Low cost and on time departures can go together but you have to be there on time... I prefer that late people are bumped like these whiners rather than having everybody else delayd...

Well done to these Jetstar guys and gals :ok:

[Icarus2001]

Whilst it is easy to complain that Jetstar are being tough they are only following their well advertised policy. Why should everyone else be held up waiting for latecomers?

If you want to get on get there early, it is really that simple.

[Allan Partridge]

So wheres ditzyboy now then?? :E

[Wirraway]

1st pic of Jetstar A320 taken in Toulouse, France:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/595353/M/

[FlexibleResponse]

A good example of you get what you pay for.Perhaps a good example of you don't get what you pay for?
Ms Winnell said her Jetstar flight to Melbourne was an hour late. "It's apparently OK for them to be an hour late but not for us to be five minutes late," she said.

Ms Winnell raises a valid point.

[Buster Hyman]

I mentioned something along these lines elsewhere. When you pick on people for being late, don't expect obliging courtesy when YOU are late!

Having said that, the duopoly is gone & it's about time the punters realised what they have in it's place...too bad, so sad!

[apache]

"We were five minutes behind time because we were held up queuing at a slow machine for a Tullamarine pass.

Not really a new excuse. Passengers need to take SOME responsibility for their being late. " We missed the train" ., "unexpected traffic", "Taxi was late"..... heard em all. NOBODY'S problem but your own!!!!

Thumbs up to Jetstar in my view.

[404 Titan]

I don’t know any airline that will board passengers after the flight is closed. There is a very good reason for this, it’s called OTP and the knock on effect it has down the network. If you are late, and I couldn’t give a rats a**e what the reason is, you don’t get on. For self-loading freight to compare denied boarding because “they” were late with an airlines OTP may seem fare to them but frankly is irrelevant unless the circumstances are known for the late departure or arrival. Who knows it could have been caused by a late passenger a couple of sectors ago.

[commander adama]

FlexibleResponse

And the others not employed in the aviation industry. Why are you on this forum? If an a/c breaks down would you like the a/c to be dispatched illegally or the problem fixed. If Jetstar waited for every person who was late the a/c would never leave. You know the conditions.You don't like it fly mainline Keep it up Jestar and I hope the others follow suit. THis may come as a surprise but a/c do break down.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Last I looked, aircraft are machines. Ergo, they break down from time to time.

The anger will last with these so called 'travellers' until the next seat sale occurs. Then all will be magically forgiven.

Buster Hyman - TOO TRUE!

THE PUNTERS WANTED DEREGULATION!
Because THEY WANTED LOW FARES and
THEY WANTED THEM NOW!

Well kids - HERE YOU GO! Like it or lump it! Fly Virgin! Fly Mainline!

IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES - and you chose to purchase a $39 fare KNOWING FULL WELL the cut off time stated 30 minutes...not 30 minutes unless you're delayed in traffic, or waiting for mum to do her hair...

It's all an education process.

[Kaptin M]

So the 30 minute rule for passengers is obviously NOT to close off check-ins,Mr Westaway said the empty seats were not resold, but were occasionally given to Jetstar employees

And from Mr Seatback 2, "It's all an education process." :rolleyes:
Educating people who will probably fly only a couple of times in their entire life - but rest assured, next time it probably WON'T be with the "el-cheapo wing of QANTAS''.

[ditzyboy]

Hello Allan :D -
I think it is a shame they couldn't organise some sort of 'late fee' and have an absolute check in cut off of 15 minutes. Ii dunno. All this media hype and angry pax will go away with time. It is unfortunate that pax get stranded in the process and serve as a 'poster child' for the public.

What was that chick's story about being told to go to the wrong airport? Pretty big stuff up on the staff member's part if its true!

I do agree with others though that say the public were warned. JQ does not hide any fact about it's flights from AVV or the 30 minute cut off. It cannot be accused of decieving poeple like Ryanair.

As for staff getting left over seats. Isn't that basically how staff travel works for EVERY airline throughout the world?!

Buster -
Totally agree about JQ expecting people to be on time but not offering a drink or snack and honouring a connection when THEY are late! BUt you read the fine print. Most airlines actually state that they don't actually have to take you anywhere for you money! Nor do they have to take you where you wanted to go or when! Me thinks the real life application of that fine print would be somewhat difficult to apply.

[GalleyHag]

Where do you draw the "line in the sand" though? It is clearly stated that check-in closes 30 minutes prior to departure and if they bothered to look at their flight information which would have been e-mailed to them or posted it CLEARLY states the airport. So now its all Jet* fault that a family from Newcastle doesnt know which airport they are suppose to be at. Next a pax wont be able to find a park so the flight should be delayed, traffic was bad and the taxi driver wasnt sure how to get to the airport all Jet* fault of course. What do these people expect for $39. They dont appreciate that their lateness will delay people out of TAS or QLD later in the day, no its all about them.

Aircraft breakdown every day as you all know, and when Jet* was Qantaslink was this a major news item, or Virgin, Qantas mainline, the regionals, NO. Once Jet* gets going you it wont even be news worth printing.

If the average joe and mrs joe want to fly and dont follow the rules throw them off and let the people that made the effort to check in on time depart on time.

[cunninglinguist]

A big :ok: to Jetstar

My pet hate since joining aviation, late pax soon followed by late departure.

But why the hell do these fools advertise the actual check in deadline, if you want people there no later than 30 minutes before dep. tell 'em 45, then when they rock up 35 before departure, full of excuses, you can be the nice guy/gal : " OK sir, I've had a word with the loaders and we can get you on this time "

As mentioned already, if 30 is not the cut off then what is ? at what stage do you stop excepting late pax, and do you p1ss off 3 or 4 people, or 150 people ?

Whenever I travel somewhere, ID, positive space, whatever, I plan to be at the airport 1 hour prior, then when the taxi is late, or you get all the red lights or whatever, you have plenty of time up your sleeve, its not bluddy brain surgery :*

And yes, it is alright for jet* to be an hour late. They were'nt an hour late because the crew could'nt be stuffed getting there lazy R'ses out of bed 15 minutes earlier to get to the airport on time, aeroplanes are machines and, shock, horror, do on occasion break down.

[ditzyboy]

cunninglinguist -
Absolutley agree. Though it is unfortunate that people are dumb / arrogant enough not to get there in time as they have never been bothered before. Then I think that when I fly I make the effort to be early nothing stopping these people.

I wonder if this will pave the way for DJ to follow suit. Apparently this 30 minute close off saves heaps of $$.

[amos2]

...how does that expression go?...

"you get what you pay for?"...

or words to that effect! :confused:


Having said that, let me also say that in my opinion EVERY AIRLINE in the world should ban those BASTARDS who front up 10 minutes prior to departure and expect to get on board!

Let's also ban those BASTARDS who get on board and then take 10 minutes to stow their excess hand baggage in the overhead lockers while 200 pax cool their heels behind them!

A POX on ALL PAX.

STUFF THEM ALL!!!!

Hmmm... that feels better. Might go and have a beer now. :ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

The family that missed their flight to NTL obviously didnt think about their fellow travellers! These late individuals contribute to many other peoples delays without a thought. Its not hard to organise yourself to be there on time. The half hour closure of the flights works well. I guess they shouldnt have debated over that last pair of Moccos and/ or stopped for the packet of winnie blues.

DM

[FlexibleResponse]

I’ve always said that airlines would operate a lot more efficiently by banning all pax. They clog up the system and ruin OTP. On the other hand…

Why is it that JetStar has made the 30 minute cutoff such a burden for themselves? Most other airlines while still using similar time constraints entrust their frontline staff to make decisions on denied boarding or otherwise depending on the actual circumstances (including OTP consideration).

JetStar didn’t invent OTP. But their way of dealing with it is alienating pax and potential pax. It also may indicate a lack of understanding of basic client respect and possible future consumer backlash. Some pax will always be difficult. But try as we may, no amount of beating them up will achieve the holy grail of getting all the pax to perform like battery hens. This is why airlines, as service industries, employ ditzy and the boys who are the experts in people handling.

Let them do their job.

When it’s all said and done, we should remember that the pax are the ones who pay the money that eventually fills our rice-bowls. And it’s real neat when they come back for a second bite of the cherry. It might be a good idea for JetStar not to scare them away.

(commander adama, Wrong assumption old bean!)

[Buster Hyman]

Do what I did people....

....joined an all freight airline! It was a sweet life!:ok:

[Blip]

I have just looked through their website and have found two references to their on-time policy.

JET SAVER FARE RULES

- This Booking is non-refundable. Cancellations at any time or failure to show up for the flight at least 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure will result in the fare being forfeited.

and this...

Arrive on Time

To help us get you to your destination on time we must get your flight away on schedule. To do this we will close check in 30 minutes prior to departure. We recommend that you arrive a minimum of 1 hour before your scheduled departure time to ensure you don't miss your flight. Check in will open 2 hours before your flight is scheduled to depart.

Passengers who arrive after check-in has closed will not be able to board the flight and will lose their seat – no refund or free transfer is available and you will be required to book and pay for a new ticket if you wish to travel.



I think it could be argued that if you can be found standing in the check-in queue then you have fulfilled your obligation to "show up" or "arrive". How Jetstark chooses to (mis)manage the queue is Jetstark's problem.

Qantas for example will call for passengers already in the queue to proceed to a dedicated check-in desk to fast-track flights that are getting too close to the departure time. Why shouldn't Jetstark be expected to do the same?

It might make some employees feel all warm and fuzzy inside by "getting back" at those troublesome passengers that turn up late, but to simply take the money and not offer a seat on a later flight (if one happens to be available) with an additional booking fee (wouldn't dare call it a penalty), is forgeting the fact that our industry is a SERVICE industry and we all depend on return business.

I know I know the rules are plain and simple (although I still reckon it's debatable what "arrive" actually means). It just seems to me to be rather short sighted. Might be good for business on the day in that it helps with the all important on time departure, but in the long term it might be counterproductive with their next airline ticket purchase and those of their friend's and family's going elswhere.

When it’s all said and done, we should remember that the pax are the ones who pay the money that eventually fills our rice-bowls. And it’s real neat when they come back for a second bite of the cherry. It might be a good idea for JetStar not to scare them away.

That goes for all of us.

[404 Titan]

FlexibleResponse

I assume you are with CX like myself or maybe KA. You know very well how our outfits handle late check ins. They deny boarding. It is a well-known fact that port staff if they achieve a certain OTP are eligible for a bonus. If on the other hand they have a bad OTP because of pax boarding they get a bollixing from HQ. Reports for OTP aren’t just submitted by the port manager but also the captain in his CAR at the end of each sector. This makes it very hard to hide the cause of the late OTP.

Kaptin M

How does you outfit handle staff travel? If it is anything like ours we have to check in ETD – 60min if we list or ETD – 120 if we haven’t. If the loads are tight, we have to wait until the flight is closed to find out if we are on. I have found this is the case with QF, AA, AS, UA and others. Is your company different? Pawn Star seems no different to me in this regard.

Maybe we are all getting a little carried away with this obvious media beat up, after all this type of thing goes on every day with every airline in the world. If you are late chances are you will be denied boarding, period.

[Kaptin M]

As well as the "show up" - which could also be interpreted as arriving at the car park 30 minutes prior to departue (we'll get to that one in a minute), with the INTENTION of catching the flight, your reference from JetStar also states "To do this we will close check in 30 minutes prior to departure."
Not "scheduled departure time", but "departure".

From this wording, I would imagine that those people inconvenienced to date by not being allowed onboard might WELL have recourse to legal action against JetStar, if it can be proven that the aircraft "Departure Time" was later than 30 minutes after they were refused check-in.

For a new airline that's trying to WIN customers, imo, they're doing a pretty lousy job!

To answer your question, Titan - staff in this company are treated as lepers. We are not allowed to list for the flight, and are only given a seat after check-in has closed (usually 30 minutes prior to departure). Although tickets are theoretically upgradeable "in the event Economy Class is full", check-in staff will upgrade pax to J Class rather than see us upgraded.
Similarly, although I travel with my wife and 2 small kids, we often find ourselves scattered.
I don't bother turning up any more than about 45 minutes before departure now, as it gives the check-in staff some sense of "fulfillment" having us waiting.
Flying on other carriers, I prefer to pay full fare - and then demand, demand, demand!

[FlexibleResponse]

Titan 404

Yep CX for me too.

I’ve watched how we handle late check-in and also late boarding for many years at our airline. Remember the Manager OTP with the Italian name? He costed each minute late at around HK$3600. Also remember the 20/10 minute warning cards for boarding and closing the gate? Funny how all these management systems come and go over the years.

Late boarding always seems to be a greater problem to me with the associated need to reopen the cargo and unload sometimes nearly all the containers to offload the baggage for security. Then repackage the whole mess and amend the LS. Sometimes we can see the missing pax peering through the terminal window. I always ask the Traffic Officer what he would like to do as he is the expert in this department and this normally results in the quickest departure.

There are many valid reasons for late boarding including staff travel not issuing tickets until 20-25 minutes before departure due for example slow computer processing. The poor staff then has to clear immigration, security and run the length of CLK terminal. There are also gate changes, late connecting flights and simply lost and bewildered old folks. We also know that many pax get lost in Duty Free but, hey, the company has a finger in that pie as well.

I think with late check-in boarding may be denied, but the ticket can normally be reused on a later flight. Also I have seen very late check-in by first class punters waving wads of bills that caused our company to reopen the flight and dump the staff pax! I just love the pragmatism of Asia! Ah, the smell of money does wonders for the best laid plans of mice and men.

[divingduck]

Its a beat up plain and simple.
Time for sleepy old Oz to wake up and get with the real world.
In Dubai its 45 minutes and you have to be checked in before that time or you get bounced.

You turn up at the gate on time or your bags get offloaded.

Only have to do it once and I would suggest that the pax will never be late again.

Mind you, a proper airline would give you the next available seat if it wanted to keep your business.

I agree with Amos regarding the muppets that hold up the queue f***ing around whilst boarding.

Pax going to the wrong airport...yeah right
:=

[apache]

Another way to look at it ?

Although Three people were denied boarding and were VERY unhappy, swearing that they will NEVER fly Jet* again, 120 people got away on time, more than likely arrived on time, and WERE happy. These will be the repeat customers.

If you can keep 120 out of 123 people (or howeever many) passengers happy, then this is a 98% happy return on business.

Personally I don't think that this is too bad. Show me another company that has 98% of POTENTIAL passengers happy ?

Hopefully this will have a knock-on effect to ALL airlines!

[ditzyboy]

Blip -
JQ has different check in queues for each flight. At minus 30 the queue co-ordinator (dunno the exact title but they are out there directing the pax to each queue) ropes off the queue for that flight. That's how it was explaned to us in our conversion training.

[apacau]

So, if you turn up 45 mins before and wait for 15 mins in the queue while a slow or new agent works through the line, it's tough cookies if you miss out???

Pretty poor I think.

However if you join the queue less than 30mins before, then it's tough luck in my view.

[Blue Sky Baron]

A question for anyone who works for Jet*.

If a pax is booked and travels one sector on Jet* which then arrives late at their destination and thus you are unable to meet the 30 minute check-in rule for the next sector do they still get bumped?

BSB :hmm:

[topend3]

the 30-minute cut-off may actually work positively for virgin, if all this publicity keeps on going about the 30-minute thing, dj pax will be turning up well before the 15-minute cutoff for all dj flights, which means less late, angry pax for them and more on-time departures.

[Blip]

That's an interesting concept ditzyboy. As apacau points out, if you had passengers unlucky enough that their queue was slower than the others for whatever reason (and there could be many), and they miss out by a couple of minutes, I'd be calling security!

It reminds me of how the management of the Qantas check-in in Sydney has evolved. For a long time there was one queue for each check-in counter. I used to observe passengers getting quite obviously annoyed if they were stuck in a slow line while others around them breezed through to the front of their line. Quite often it seemed to be not the fault of the check-in staff. It's just that some people had many pieces of baggage, or they were part of a group, or whatever. I used to think that it would have been better to have one line for each PAIR of check-in counters so that if one had a difficult check-in, the other would keep the line moving.

Anyway they've gone the way of Melbourne and Brisbane. There is just one big queue. When you get to the front you're called to any of the ten or so check-in counters - whichever one is ready for the next passenger. Much less frustration!!

Just for your info I found this website that has some mathematical formulas relating to queues. http://www.crowddynamics.com/Queueing/mathematics.html

So there is a mathematical science behind good queue management. I reckon the science of queue psycology would be quite interesting too. I know not much is said between queuers, but if you could hear the little voices inside their heads...:ooh:

[200psi]

Will someone from Jet* answer clearly how the cut off works. I plan to be in line an hour before the scheduled departure and knowing the check in staff at the airport in question dont give a rats about pax I am doubting if I will get checked in in time. So if someone knows what the procedure is for assisting the pax who are doing the right thing, dont keep it a secret, speak up.

[Southern handler]

Lets just remember that whilst the 30 min cutoof is new the loosing the airfare is not.

Both DJ and QF's discount fares (apart from the almost full fare ones), are lost if you are not there within 15 minutes.

And we at QF ticket cntr in the capital get a lot of DJ pax coming down to buy new fares

[Buster Hyman]

Ahhh, the dreaded "Anaconda" rears it's head again!

Snake queueing is probably the most flowing form of queue, I'm sure Jet* do as all others do & that is to call forward any punters in the queue for flights about to close. Ditzy, does that happen?

[Pimp Daddy]

JQ has different check in queues for each flight. At minus 30 the queue co-ordinator (dunno the exact title but they are out there directing the pax to each queue) ropes off the queue for that flight.
So, if you turn up 45 mins before and wait for 15 mins in the queue while a slow or new agent works through the line, it's tough cookies if you miss out???
That's an interesting concept ditzyboy. As apacau points out, if you had passengers unlucky enough that their queue was slower than the others for whatever reason (and there could be many), and they miss out by a couple of minutes, I'd be calling security!

Reading Ditzys explanation I interpret that as meaning when the 30min cutoff arrives, the queue is roped off and no additional punters can join it, the punters already there were there 30min before.

I still don't get what the big hassle is to turn up on time. unless it's something like the cabbies blocking the airport again.

[Blip]

Pimp Daddy. If your interpretation of their queue management is correct well then fair enough I suppose.

ditzyboy can you or anyone else confirm how the queues are managed?

Thanks.

[Zed]

Pimp Daddy, is indeed correct.

I can't believe you would think any differently.

[ditzyboy]

Each flight has a separate check in queue. This queue is roped off at minus 30.

I take it that means if you are already in the queue you are fine.

This logic stands to reason. I know that 2-3 check in counters are open for each flight. At -30 they finish up and finalise paperwork. These two people are then at the gate at -17 to start boarding and dispatch the flight. My understanding is that the two check in agents are the ones at the gate doing the boarding. Clever system I reckon.

[Buster Hyman]

It's a clever system whilst there's only a few departures, but as the airline increases it's services (presumably) it will become unworkable, I can assure you.

[Wirraway]

The news on this keeps coming.....

Fri "Herald Sun"

Check-in rule riles passengers
Liam Houlihan
11jun04

SPURNED Jetstar passengers stranded by the airline's strict check-in policy are switching to low-fare rival Virgin Blue.

Virgin Blue's Melbourne airport manager Luke Bugeja said it had served at least 20 disgruntled Jetstar customers on Tuesday after Jetstar had stopped passengers who were only minutes late from boarding.

Some bound for Brisbane and Hobart had travelled to Melbourne airport from Avalon airport after being grounded by Jetstar there.

Many other grounded passengers have made the angry trudge from Jetstar's counters to those of Virgin Blue.

One convert reportedly told Virgin Blue staff: "Get these Jetstar tags off my bags. I'm never flying Jetstar again."

A Jetstar spokesman had described the Herald Sun report of six Newcastle-bound passengers being bumped from their flight on Tuesday as an isolated incident.

But other spurned Jetstar passengers have emerged, saying the same thing happened to them.

Maree Turner, who recently had a baby, was humiliated after wetting herself when Jetstar staff gave her the runaround and eventually excluded her from a Newcastle flight on Saturday.

Melburnian Maree Dunne and her boyfriend lost their $29 fares for a Maroochydore flight when they tried to check in 25 minutes before departure. She said a five-minute delay was caused in the long-term car park.

After being rejected by Jetstar, Ms Dunne and her boyfriend paid $520 to Virgin Blue for two new Maroochydore tickets.

Ms Dunne said four other passengers were rejected from the same Jetstar flight for minor lateness and then bought Virgin Blue tickets.

In another incident, a woman flying Jetstar from Hobart to Melbourne was queuing with plenty of time to spare, but was kept off her flight after the slow-moving queue delivered her to the checkout minutes late.

"They should have told me when I rang up to confirm the flight (about the strict check-in policy)," Ms Dunne said.

She said her treatment by Jetstar put a damper on her whole break.

Jetstar's spokesman Simon Westaway said: "I am not surprised our competitor airline is seeking to make some capital out of it."

He defended the check-in rule as part of the package that enabled Jetstar to offer low fares.

========================================

[Buster Hyman]

at least 20 disgruntled Jetstar customers
Good Grief! It's all over for Jet* now!:rolleyes:

[Blastoid]

From ditzyboy:

Each flight has a separate check in queue. This queue is roped off at minus 30. I take it that means if you are already in the queue you are fine.

From the Herald-Sun:

In another incident, a woman flying Jetstar from Hobart to Melbourne was queuing with plenty of time to spare, but was kept off her flight after the slow-moving queue delivered her to the checkout minutes late.

Can we get some clarification of the rules? Sounds like it's not your fault if you're in the Q prior to cutoff and then they bump you because you didn't make it to the front by T-30. I'd be pretty upset too if that was the case.

(I'm also aware - ummm: wary - of the accuracy (or lack therefore) of newspaper articles, but some clarification would be nice!)

[Icarus2001]

That looks like a Virgin Blue media release retyped to make a story by Liam Houlihan.

[NS Driver]

Worked in the regional north west of WA for quite a few years and turning up late for flights was a national past time. I would think that late boarders was the norm rather than the exception. You would finalise the numbers cut the load sheet and then bang some drongo would appear puffing and panting. We onloaded them mainly due to fact we had to live amongst them and rubbed shoulders on a daily basis. I am sure if we had of followed policy to the letter we would have had half the trouble we did. The point I am making is if you let it get out hand go shows will become part of the norm. Jump on it fom the start and people will learn real fast.

As for Virgin gloating I have never understood how an organisation has promoted it self as a LCC by dispensing the services of a legacy carrier and still prides itself on service ?? "What Service" ??

[Wirraway]

ABC News Online
Friday, June 11, 2004. 3:00pm (AEST)

Jetstar compensates passengers stranded overnight

Australia's new budget airline Jetstar, says it will compensate seven passengers left stranded in Melbourne overnight.

Seven passengers missed Jetstar's final Melbourne to Launceston flight last night when their Qantas flight from another state arrived late in Melbourne Airport.

Jetstar's corporate relations manager Simon Westaway says it was an extremely unfortunate set of circumstances.

"There's no other way to describe it and what we're prepared to do is talk to each of those individual customers in respect to compensatory aspects because we simply can't accommodate them on another service or we're doing our best to put them on to a plane at the moment but obviously we're flying very full today as would be our competitor because it's a Friday before a long weekend," he said.

Some of the affected passengers were put on a flight to Burnie this morning because all flights to Launceston are fully booked for the Queen's birthday long weekend.

========================================

[DutchRoll]

Does it ever occur to people to allow plenty of time to get to the airport, to know which airport & terminal you're going to in the first place, and not to book connections with a 5 minute window of opportunity?

Or are these unreasonable expectations for someone paying 40 bucks for an airfare?:rolleyes:

[Buster Hyman]

their Qantas flight from another state arrived late
Why should Jet* accommodate them? Surely responsibility resides with QF here?

Okay, okay, they're one & the same, but do you think they'd fork out if the punters came in late off DJ, SQ, TG etc, etc. In other words, this is Jet* in damage control & any opportunity to get some good press is being handed to them from QF's plate.

[captain_josh18]

just regarding that story on Jetstar where the people were left fuming because they missed their NTL flight...

Believe me, they were not five minutes late, they were more like 10-15 mins late, and the other guy that rekons that he was told to goto the wrong airport? Thats a lil hard to believe. I was standing there and he was controdicting himself, saying he went to Avalon, and missed his aircraft by "no more than 5 minutes" ... Crap... He told us that he was told to goto Avalon... He went there, and was told he had to come to Tullamarine.. He mentioned something like "I was told to goto Avalon, rah rah rah, and it took me 15 minutes to drive here and now ive missed my flight"

Now personally i find it a lil hard to believe, 15 mins to get from Avalon to Melb.. must have been absolutely flying, and he turned around and sed he got stuck in traffic at the road works on Edgars road in the Ring Road.... lol. Now correct me if im wrong... Edgars road is East of Melbourne.. and Avalon is West.... ???? I only know this as i travel on the ring road to get to work and go past Edgars everyday.

Wonder why he didnt tell that media guy that to put in the story?

Also it was funny watching this reporter. Sitting down tryng to get a upset customer. Walking thru the lines saying " Hi im from Jetstar, just wanting some feedback" ..... And it took him a good 2 and a half hours to find one!

Media... tell ya.. Thats just going off what i saw and heard cause i was there that morning and belive me.. i found it pathetic reading that story, cause its so untrue what happened. Nevermind, hopefully everyone read it and they are well aware of the conditions of Jetstar and you see what happens when you aint here on the 30 mins deadline :)

[Mr Nightmare]

What a joke of an airline!

[Yawn]

Captain Josh

Well said, the story is now put to bed by someone who witnessed the actual event.

Hopefully the tread finishes here. They (pax) now know the rules. If a pax whats to BS a sob story because they're upset with themselves for being late - so what. If a reporter trys to make a story out of nothing because that's what the editor (who wasn't there) wants to write. So be it.

Everyone knows the media reporting of aviation is terrible.

QED

(Not employed by the star)

[apache]

Melburnian Maree Dunne and her boyfriend lost their $29 fares for a Maroochydore flight when they tried to check in 25 minutes before departure. She said a five-minute delay was caused in the long-term car park.

Not Jet*'s fault was it ???? Who is to blame here ? according to the mdia " Certainly not the poor passenger who cut it to the last minute, and had to forfeit a fare cheaper than the bus!!!!"

Why the hell SHOULD these morons be allowed to board? Why upset the other 120 pax who made the effort to get there on time? Good riddance to these idiots! let them catch the bus/train/centrelink shuttel for all I care!

After being rejected by Jetstar, Ms Dunne and her boyfriend paid $520 to Virgin Blue for two new Maroochydore tickets.

So... EVERYBODY wins...except the idiots who run late???? where is the problem ?

"They should have told me when I rang up to confirm the flight (about the strict check-in policy)," Ms Dunne said.

I am sure that she is telling the truth, and that Jetstar staff Deliberately lie to people in order to keep the $29 !!!!

Who would you believe ? Some idiot who can't check in on time .. or reservation staff who have absolutely NOTHING to gain by not telling people the conditions of the fare... even though they are PAID to do so ???

One convert reportedly told Virgin Blue staff: "Get these Jetstar tags off my bags. I'm never flying Jetstar again."

Is this someone whom obviously MADE the flight and was disgruntled IN -FLIGHT! Else, they cannot GET Jet* tags for their baggage!!!!... So, WHat exactly was the problem ???

Once again... Jetstar, I applaude you. Keep up the "education" of the masses. I certainly hope it has a "knock on" effect.

Clever marketing if you ask me!!! sell 100,000 tickets at $29 each. Half these morons cannot get there on time ergo JETSTAR keep the $29 , AND probably sells the seats to staff at $29 or so... therefore the fare per seat is now $58 ... not too bad really!

Once the Oz Public understands the ramifications of booking with Jetstar, and accepts the consequences, then JQ will have full flights... on time departures and no staff travel available, which also saves on Fringe Benefits Tax.

as was qouted on another thread,which I found quite witty ....

VIRGIN BLUE ... Keeping the air fair

JETSTAR ... Keeping the airfare

[Zed]

In another incident, a woman flying Jetstar from Hobart to Melbourne was queuing with plenty of time to spare, but was kept off her flight after the slow-moving queue delivered her to the checkout minutes late.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slow moving queue in the car park, or Macas perhaps.

I believe everything I read in the Herald Sun

[cunninglinguist]

Good post Capt. josh, after dealing with SLMs ( self loading morons ) for 15 years I 100% believe you.

The rest of you just don't get it, do ya ?
If I e n u n c i a t e will that help ?
The conditions are clear ( I'm typing very slowly ) when you book your ticket you are told the conditions. If you want to run the gauntlet and try to get there at T- 31 minutes, then cop the damned consequences :mad:

I don't think jet* will be too worried about the SLMs coments of " I'll never fly with jet* again ", how many do you reckon will stick to that the next time they see $40 fares ??

[ur2]

Well done Jetstar,
The train has never waited for late passengers. You don't hear them whinge about the railways being on time.
Come on Vb get your hands off it. Or maybe it is just that, "Virgin Flair !"

[SydGirl]

ur2,

That is exactly right. Trains, buses and now planes wait for no one. If you're late, they'll just leave without you.

Having been in aviation for over a decade, it still astounds me how people are so arrogant to think that an airline will delay a plane full of people in order to wait for one latecomer.

It is no secret that passengers must get to the airport in plenty of time for their flight. Now it's just being enforced.

SG
:}

[Kaptin M]

ur2 and SydGirl, you're both absolutely :D and totally CORRECT......trains and 'busses do NOT wait for late pax.
And NOTHING p!sses ME off more than having to delay pushback for pax who inconvenience ALL the other passengers by delaying the flight because of their own supposed self-importance.

But the doors of the train, and the 'bus, don't close until RIGHT on departure time.
There's no waiting in a queue that's being processed by someone doing "on the job training", or someone else who's had a bad night the night before - or a computer that has "spat the dummy".

I would hazard a guess that JetStar are going to use the number of late customer check-in complaints - that are receiving PLENTY of publicity, btw - as a reason for introducing computerised check-in. :eek:
So, as much as many of you want to argue its benefits, I believe that Jet* are probably going to use the number of lost pax, and ADVERSE PRESS against you, down the track, to replace you.
Of course the +ve side of your job losses will be that it is all part of Jet*'s attempts to bring you a better service! (Because, after all, it WAS the check-in staff who prevented you from boarding!!)
Just think - if Pax xx had arrived at the car park with only minutes to spare, his partner could have made a computerised check-in, and had the boarding passes ready, rather than joining a queue. :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

...and their bags were left behind because no-one did the checks, tagged the bag & sent it down the belt....

[welcome_stranger]

ur2 and SydGirl and KaptainM are correct but here's the rub. If you miss your bus or train there will be another one in 10/15/30 minutes time and the ticket you purchased will allow you carriage on that bus or train.

That is because the bus and train are classed as "common carriers" and you'll find that airlines (in Aust at least) are specifically exempted from being "common carriers".

A question for the more knowledgeable:

You want to fly from Hobart to Proserpine so you ring J* and they make the following bookings for you:

Hobart to Brisbane J*82 departing 0600 arriving 0840
Brisbane to Proserpine J*756 departing 0955 arriving 1130

You arrive a Hobart airport at 0505 happy that you will check your bag, get your boarding pass and still have time for a coffee.

Then comes the announcement "J* is pleased to announce that their Boeing 717-200 flight 82 for Brisbane is delayed due to <insert common reason fed to the masses here>, we have techs working on the problem and hope to have it solved soon".

Where do you stand with missing your connection to Proserpine because of J* being late out of Hobart or even cancelling that flight.

Just a thunk.

[Kaptin M]

...and their bags were left behind because no-one did the checks, tagged the bag & sent it down the belt.... Would it surprise you to hear, Buster, that self check-in of pax AND their baggage is already a fait accompli at a couple of airports in Japan.
The required number of baggage tags are issued, via the "hole in the wall", along with the boarding pass (where the pax is also able to nominate exactly which seat he wants - and gets, if still available). Said pax then tags bag(s) and places them on a belt, which weighs them and transports them "down below" via an x-ray security scanner.
Dunno what happens if they are found to be suspect - I guess s/he would get a call over the airport public address system, to report somewhere to open the offending merchandise.

So be careful p!ssing the pax off, girls and boys - the more complaints you stir up, the more ammunition you're giving your employers to use against YOU.

[Blastoid]

welcome_stranger,

My understanding of J* policy regarding connections is that if you miss the connection, tough luck. They have quite clearly stated that they are a point-to-point carrier and that they do not provide connections for other J* flights. As for the recent "looking after" of J* passengers that missed their flight because a Q flight was delayed, I think they were trying to avoid more bad press over the cultural changes they are beinging into effect. If it had been Vigin, they wouldn't have cared (and nor should they).

All I can say is I wouldn't be booking two or more consecutive sectors with J*. You pay the cheap fare - don't expect the world.

[Buster Hyman]

No, not at all Kaptin M. It's the way it is heading...:( How do you, as Crew, feel about this automation & the inherent security issues?:confused:

[FlexibleResponse]

I believe that Jet* are probably going to use the number of lost pax, and ADVERSE PRESS against you, down the track, to replace you.My money says that Kaptin M's comments will prove to be accurate. All the poor Ansett check-in staff that lost their jobs and were reemployed by Qantas on less pay and lost their jobs again and were reemployed by Jetstar on even less pay will lose their jobs again.

[HOBAY 3]

welcome_stranger,

this excerpt from the J* conditions of carraige should clear up your query:



9. SCHEDULES, LATE OR CANCELLED FLIGHTS
9.1 Schedules
(a) The flight time shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice may change between the date of issue and your date of travel. Jetstar does not guarantee the flight times and they do not form part of your contract of carriage with us.

(b) Before we accept your booking, we or our Authorised Agents will tell you the scheduled departure time of your flight and it will be shown on your Itinerary and Tax Invoice. We may need to change the scheduled departure time of your flight after your Itinerary and Tax Invoice has been issued. If you give us or our Authorised Agents contact information, we or they will try to let you know about any changes.

(c) If, after you pay for your Booking, we make a significant change to the scheduled departure time of your flight or the flight is late or cancelled (except where this is due to bad weather):

and you find this change unacceptable; and
we or our Authorised Agents cannot book you on another flight which you are prepared to accept;
we will give you a fare refund.

9.2 Late or cancelled flights (due to bad weather)
Where bad weather is responsible for the delayed or cancelled flight, whether you have checked in or not, Jetstar will try to assist you to get to your destination, but will not be responsible for paying any costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the delay or cancellation.

9.3 No flight connections provided
Jetstar is a low cost 'point-to-point' airline which does not provide flight connections or baggage transfer. It is the Passenger's responsibility when making bookings to allow time for Baggage collection and recheck. We recommend at least 90 minutes between domestic flights, and at least 150 minutes between an international and a domestic flight. While Jetstar will try to carry you and your Baggage in accordance with the date and time of the flights specified, it does not guarantee it will be able to do so. Schedules may change without notice for a range of reasons including but not limited to bad weather, air traffic control delays, strikes, technical disruptions and late inbound aircraft. To the extent permitted by law, Jetstar excludes liability for any costs, expenses, losses or damages incurred by the Passenger as a result of failure to meet a schedule.

[Kaptin M]

It's the way the industry is headed, Buster - LESS "front line" staff, MORE office staff. Something of an irony, isn't it, when staff who are employed to assist the customers (the people who provide the revenue) are replaced by machines, but more "assistants to the managers of B.S Castle" are employed!

IMHO, the pioneers of Oz aviation - Sir Reginald Ansett, W. Hudson Fysh, and later Max Hazelton - demonstrated how to SUCCESSFULLY operate airline businesses.
Today's airlines are mainly, overly top-heavy with non revenue-producing office staff.

From the security aspect, Buster, that "first line" of defence has been removd, with automated check-in, however I wonder how effective - in the main - they really were?
And worldwide, the security "goons" - who have achieved a much higher profile since Sept 11 - get a continual bollocking here, and elsewhere, for being "over zealous" with their checks.
However, they may well be the ONLY check in most countries before much longer!

Personally, I don't like to see people being displaced - did I mention that ALL of the pre-Flight Planning and briefing here, is now via a computer...it is set up such that we (pilots) NEVER need see a human, from sign-on to sign-off!
ALL modifications (if any) to the flight plan, eg. change to fuel, FL, or routing is done via a computer - however it's the way we're headed, and the majority apparently WANT it this way.

[Buster Hyman]

Well, Kaptin, when I was first doing loadsheets, we required a "certain" amount of Flight planning, WX & NOTAM knowledge. By no means were we expected to quote the documents to the crews, but enough knowledge to be able to detect errors in either the documents themselves, alternates etc, etc. When I was last doing loadsheets, not too long ago now, the WX & NOTAMS were automatically spat out from the FAX & I got the CFP off the internet! All I really needed to know & were expected to know was what key to hit for printing & how to put more paper in the machine. When I raised the question of why my crew needed wind charts for Australia & the entire SE Asia region, I was told it was part of the package & too hard to change!
Automation is a fine tool, but when the system sh!ts itself & runs home to mamma, who's going to go upstairs & do a manual check-in?
You are right, also, in the future make up of any airline. It will encompass about a dozen staff, all wearing suits, and not one of them would be able to tell the difference between AvGas and bunny farts!:mad:

[Southern handler]

Hey Buster

No they are no changing there rules here.

From the start we at QF were told that if QF or JQ have a disruption then we will do all to accomodate pax, thats for JQ missing QF and QF missing JQ.

[ditzyboy]

welcome stranger -
You cannot book HBA-PPP as a connection. You would make two totally different bookings. It would be no different to booking HBA-MEL on QF, MEL-BNE on DJ and then BNE-PPP on JQ. You actively must make two separate bookings - thus absolving JQ of any liability. They did not sell you travel from HBA-PPP.

If you book MEL-PPP on the QF site. It directs you to two different booking engines but on the same screen. It tells you that you make two payments. But QF offers you the MEL-PPP city pair in its initial booking engine. Hence the responsibility to get you there somehow.

I have a question. If you flight has a scheduled departure of 0830 (meaning a check in cut off of 0800) and the inbound is delayed and the revised departure time is 0900. If you show up at 0810 can you still check in? I think it would be fair to say you should as the airline is late - needs to work both ways. In this case anyway.

The conditions say check in closes 30 minutes prior to departure. It doesn't say 'scheduled' departure. It doesn't say 'actual' though either. Dunno.

SydGirl -
About planes waiting for no one... One morning in NTL they would not close check in despite it being -10 before departure with all checked pax onboard. The supervisor at check in wanted to wait for a no show Chairman's Lounge customer who rang said he was two minutes away. Anyway at -5 the supervisor rang and the guy again said "Two minutes" and hung up. This caused an almost brawl amongst the staff at NTL about holding for this guy (a politician). Another check in agent repeatedly tried calling this loser to get no answer. At departure time the man swans up to check in, then buys a newspaper. Eventually he made it to the aircraft then abused me for the lack of "the big seats" (some a/c had J seats sold as Y) and no coat cupboard then he ordered the Purser to close the door. We couldn't until Load Control sent through the paperwork. They got busy and it took another five or so mins. Anyway we ended up departing over 10 minutes late because of this guy. And it was he who still kicked up the most stink!

I praise JQ for sticking to their guns. Yeh they could do without the bad publicity. But at the end of the day it is saving them stacks of money using this procedure.

Until DJ has a cost base lower than JQ's I really don't see them being a big winner. (Won't go into it but DJ's yield management where connecting flights are concerned is just a joke! You can fly MEL-SYD-CNS for $99 but if you want to fly just MEL-SYD on the same sector it's $235!!!. Really clever.)