Which Type Rating?

[dickon]

On my never ending research on how to get into the corporate world while still being a low time pilot, I have recently been informed that the instructors ratings are NOT more attractive to an employer than a type rating, which you can probably get for approximately the same training costs.

My question is :- How do you know which type rating to go for?

Will the type rating and still low hours ( tt300 ) really be more attractive than a load of instructor hours, and no type rating?

Cheers guys, any opinions are much appreciated!

:ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Whats the problem with instructing?

1 or 2 seasons instructing will tremendously increase your stick & rudder skills (please dont be so arrogant as to say that it wont because with the greatest amount of respect due you arn't experienced enough to realise!)

I might suggest that a lot of operators may also have some sort of affiliation with a flying school, it might be an idea to instruct as much as poss for the experience and hours and project yourself as somebody who has a good amount of common sense and that you have the sort of personality that an older captain can put up with for a few days somewhere where their isn't much happening. By doing this you may be able to get some RHS work in something single crew like a CJ or an older CItation 1 or 2.

The other big problem you will ahve is obtaining a type rating. You may well struggle getting employment/insurance if your type rating isnt from Flightsafety or Simuflite in fact I have a quote here from a Flightsafety E mail I have which reads

he exceeds the FSI requirement of 1000 hours

So it may be that you arn't going to get a type rating until you are a little more experienced anyway. No doubt somebody somewhere will take your money of you.

Just a question, are you considering corporate because you can't get an airline job?

[Miles Magister]

Dickon,

G-SPOTs question at the end is the key. Why do you wish to get into corporate? It is very different to the airlines and working for a PT company as a line pilot will never bring the financial rewards.

Have a look at the thread below and my post of 5th Oct 03.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103809[/URL]

I personally feel it is the person who I look at when employing, not their qualifications provided they meet the minimums. It is true that most low hour pilots do not posses any great degree of handling skill purely because of their experience.

I also do not take any notice of instructor ratings as most FIs never progress beyond PPL level because that is all they ever see and most of it is just watching someone else fly.

The best investment, IMHO, is an advanced flying course of some sort which will build handling skill and awareness. Then do a type rating. Low hours does not really matter and orders for new Biz jets are going in faster than the manufactures can fill out the sales slips at the moment. There will be plenty of work next year and operators will be looking for people with a rating so they do not have to fund one or carry the risk of failure.

[dickon]

Thanks guys,

G-SPOT, I am not being arrogant but careful as to where I am gonna put the next bundle of cash!:rolleyes:

I also agree that CFI time is good in your log book, not necessarily cos its CFI time but because it's TIME.

Miles has the point that I have recently heard.

The answer to the question about airlines is simple. I am not really interested in airlines because the flying intersts me more than the money. I would love to get into corporate stuff, because I love filing my own flight plans and doing my calculations and sorting it all out for myself and then flying to another different and interesting destination. I know its not all like that but there is definitely more chance than if you are with and airline. To be honest I'd prefer to drive the school bus than go to the airlines.

And Miles I like the fact that you are more concerned about what the person is like than how experienced he is, but how do i get to meet you? thats the question :D

That is another thing...I am not so keen on instructing because writing the hrs that somebody else has flown is official yes but not really real. If you know what I mean. But of course if instructing is the only way to get hrs to be hired further then I will do it.

Who does the Advanced flying courses (for FAA CPL holders)? Sounds good!

[JJflyer]

Done the corporate stuff... And still doing a bit.. hopefully less and less (Knowcking wood).

However regarding type ratings. With very little experience it is close to useless to get a type... Your best chances to get a look is to build your hours up and keep updating your CV with companies you are interested in.

Regardless of your willingness to obtain a self sponsored type rating you should keep that info away from a prospective employer and only use that card when y really need it, that is if they offer you a job provided that you are typed.

If you read the above but still decide that it is within your best interest to pay for a type your self... Well. Have a look atthe companies you are interested in, what types do they operate. From a pure numbers point a Citation is probably most common entry level Jet. I would not even think about Gulfstreams or other heavy iron birds.

But then if you get a CE something rating and get hired by a company that operates Lears... Money wasted.

[capt.sparrow]

Look at this way too... FI rating at about £5000 say. Thats potentially hundreds of hours of P1 time. If you were to hour build you may be lucky to get 50 hours with not much change. Trying to get into corporate is tricky, especially with low hours - you will fall foul of the CAA 700 hrs min to even fly a seneca on public transport (however if you can get a job doing the old traffic reports - VFR work - the CAA wil allow this with low hours guys).

[PPRuNeUser0215]

It is very different to the airlines and working for a PT company as a line pilot will never bring the financial rewards.


Having flown both GA and now being employed by an airline, I think that it all dpends on who you work for.
Flying Biz jets doesn't mean flying antics which with less equipment than found on airliners. Also, depending on the operator, the procedures required can be as strict as the one found in long established airlines, therefore not as flexible/fun that one might expect.
Also, flying for an airline, doesn't mean you have to fly vectored ILS all the time. The company I work for and the places i go to often demand otherwise in order to keep both efficiency and safety in phase.
Believing that GA is more fun or indeed more prone to change in standards is not quite acurate. The same that airline flying doesn't necessarily require less hand flying than, say bringing a GV into LGW. Good management and use of the resources available (ie Aircraft automatics) will often dictate the safe running of a flight.

As far as financial rewards are concerned, I don't know either... FO on the Boeing (Junior) allows me to get about £55000 pa before tax.
I love my GA and hope to freelance occasionally simply because I love being on an airfield, checking and tidying up my own aircraft (The owner's one) but I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
They are bothe different careers, with both different rewards but when it come to flying enjoyment and financial reward, I don't think it where we can separate the two.
GA is no mickey mouse flying and airline is not 100% auto flight.

To be honest I'd prefer to drive the school bus than go to the airlines.

I take it you don't mean that... I have done the driving thing (delivering parcels by road) and I know which one I prefer. Being stuck in traffic is certainly not as fun as planning a good decent followed by a constant decent approach for a visual downwind, final into a Greek island.

At an early stage of my career (now I sound like a patronising bas*stard) I might have thought along your lines but if you don't trust me (why would you?), please giev it a try at some stage. Flying for a bad owner is ten times worse than flying for a good airline. The opposite is also true and only experience will show you that.

Good luck in whatever you do... Flying is flying and a job is jobe but the grass is alsways greener on the other side of the fence.

[dickon]

Thanks guys for spending the time and thought on your answers and advice. It is really very much appreciated, ofcourse I still don't know where to go next! :p

As some of you may have seen and some not, I am a FAA CPL holder and not CAA, which is one reason why I am looking more at the corporate side of things, not mistakenly but planned from the beginning.

Maybe I should actually do the CFII and the MEI and get a 'N' reg down here to Cork because there is only one here and noone is allowed to fly it from what I have heard!

There must be loads of FAA licence holders who want to keep up to date and even guys that would like a FAA PPL because of the flying and financial benefits and less desk work. They even do FAA comp testing in Cork but there is no plane for them to fly :} explain that one!!!

Thanks again guys! :ok:

[JJflyer]

Hi Dickon...

I received your PM. But felt that answering here would benefit others as well.


Since you are FAA licence holder your options are very limited in Europe, not just due to your low total time, but for the simple reason that US registered aircraft are quite scarse in Europe. Companies that operate N-regs are even fewer and those looking for low time pilots, well I know of none at the moment.

You need to ask yourself a very important question:

Namely where do you want to work US or EU...

If the answer is EU you need to obtain a licence that is accepted around the EU, namley JAA ticket.

Should you want to work in US, you have the right licence, but do you have a greencard??? Even with that it is getting increasibgly difficult to obtain a job due to the new DOT/DHS/TSA security regulations that foreign pilots have to comply with. US operators are increasingly reluctant to hire foreigners doe to this.

Anyways. If i can be of any help, please let me know.

Cheers

JJ

[dickon]

Thanks JJ,

Yeah true, I am willing and actually hoping to work anywhere in the world and definitely no reservations about staying in Europe for any reason.

I even started the JAA conversion to fATPL and got so bored of the desk work and really just wanted to fly, that I couldn't hack rediculousness of the depth that they go into. I know this sounds impatient but the fact is that I was bound for atleast 1 year of desk work and then I would have had to fly approx 20 hrs for the conversion...which part of this was to make me a more experienced pilot was clear to me and I could have done that in a week! :ugh:

I have also noticed that there are a lot of US reg private aircraft about, even in Europe and I don't think the number is dropping, infact I have heard from people in the business that it is booming.

I know that my hours make me an in-experienced pilot and I agree, but this keeps popping into my head.
-
Here in Ireland I have been flying a little for a little company owned by a retired airline pilot that does sight seeing, aerial photography..etc there is another pilot here who has his JAA fATPL and has worked briefly with Ryan Air just before 911, and was then unfortunately struck off, like lots of unlucky ones. My point is that this company won't let him fly their plane because they think he is unsafe in the air ( after flying with him ). They also won't let anyone with less than 500hrs fly their plane...I have 285TT and work for them. This is a nice feeling for me but again sad because with the hrs that I have, I will never get the chance to show anyone that I CAN fly. :{

Just had to get that off my chest :yuk:

JJ could you PM me that company that you know? would be very grateful.

[Kopeloi]

Well, I would say that go back to desk and start studying! You can keep flying those sightseeing trips beside. Believe me, it will be easier to do your JAA licence now than later. Looks like you are happy for your flying skills, keep that up but to get a real job in aviation you need a licence. Sooner or later you will be back in Europe and you can´t get anything decent without JAA licence.

Jobs with N reg airplanes in Europe are more or less temporary for the simple fact that they are all private planes and those kind of operations do not have such a steady future. Hours will come later, I can guarantee. I used to fly over 150 hrs per month when young and fit in Africa year years ago... Now 20 hours makes me tired...
Nikolai

[Chilli Monster]

Dickon

Forget the type rating. It's not companies who call the shots now - it's the insurance companies.

A lot of insurance companies won't touch you unless you've done the FSi or Simuflite courses. They in turn won't touch you for a type rating until you've got 1000 hours.

There are other type rating providers out there, but even they get twitchy if you've less than the magical 1000 figure. I know, I looked into it (I'm in the same boat as you).

The only way they will even consider reducing the requirement (and it's only consider - there's no guarantee that they will) is if you get a lot of RHS time in a jet that's single pilot ops - with a pilot that's preferably an instructor. They're then looking for an endorsement from him that you're actually able to pass a type rating (read in U.S parlance ATP) check ride. And that's the skill level they're looking at - ATP with the accuracies that requires on test.

Since you are FAA licence holder your options are very limited in Europe, not just due to your low total time, but for the simple reason that US registered aircraft are quite scarse in Europe.
Are we living in the same Europe? In the course of my day job I see and work quite a few non-euro bizjets based over this side of the pond.

It's worth pointing out here that on an FAA licence you can also fly VP-B and VP-C. Both the Bermudans and Caymans will giive you a licence validation based on an FAA licence.

[JJflyer]

Yes... well what I was trying to say that EU based N-reg biz jets are not exactly the most often seen ones. Those that fly from US or from other areas to Europe are hardly going to be looking for a low time pilot to hire.

Caymans, bermuda and Aruba. Yes I have validations for all of them in a "few" types... However some of the above have also started to require 500 hours in type in order to issue a validation.

JJ

[Miles Magister]

Dickon,

I have just read through this thread.

I bit of honest and harsh advice. Take it for what it is worth or ignore it, at your peril. No responsible operator will go near you if you could not be bothered to do the JAA conversion. A comment like you made above about it being too much work to be bothered with will damn you in perpetuity. Operators want people who rise to the challenge and are prepared to work.

The best thing you could do is the JAA exams ASAP and don't ever make a comment like your one above again!

MM

[dickon]

Thanks for that Miles,

I am just comparing JAA to the FAA which teaches you what you need and how to be a good pilot, where the JAA will minimise flying time (because of cost) but absolutely maximise Desk time. I just simply disagree with the JAA system on principle. New JAA pilots can build a concorde inside a 747 during flight with a toothpick, and damn it, fair do's to them.

I think pilots and exams should be concentrating on how we fly and leave the repair and manufacture and design to other professionals.

I know what you mean though! thanks for the warning. ;)

[54.98N]

Dickon,

I don't think many people here will disagree with you that the JAR ATPL exams are not very practical. Unfortunately they are just something you will have to do at some point if you wish to fly in Europe.

The sooner you start, the sooner you'll finish. I did mine in 8 months whilst holding down a full time job so they can be done reasonably quickly if you have the motivation. Once it's all over you'll be glad you've done it.

I'm currently finishing off my CPL/MEP (the fun bit of the JAR training!).

Best Regards,

54.98N

[Crosswind Limits]

Dickon,

My advice to you is get a JAA licence as it will make your chances of finding employment easier. When I did the exams three years ago there were many times that I thought to myself what pointless twaddle it all is. However, I knuckled down and got on with the job and passed them all without too much fuss. Some of my classmates kept whinging about the JAR system ad nauseam throughout every lecture. :* Most of them failed or are still doing the exams now!:(

Now get on with it and stop looking for excuses not to! Save your energy for studying - you'll need it!:}

It's just another obstacle! :ok:

[dickon]

What a nice bunch of guys!

Thanks!

:ok: :ok: :ok: