Jetstar cabin cleaning?

[Sonny Hammond]

I'll be accused by some of trying to start a wind up but this is a genuine query.

Is it a fact that the Jetstar pilots are cleaning the cabin with the cabin crew during the 25 minute turnarounds?
I ask the question but truthfully know that at least occasionally it has happened since Jetstar started. Is it an expectation?

Now, I know this has been accepted practice at smaller 'airlines' over the years but this precedent would be worrying in my view.

Firstly we are talking about a BIG aeroplane, and 25 mins from on blox to off blox is not very long
Additionally the jetstar pilots also have to;
1. checklists, both shutdown and preflight
2. a complete exterior inspection as per the ops manual, as jetstar dont use ground lames for this function (except 1st flight of the day, i think)
3. Preflight procedures, including performance, wx analysis, mel interpretation and application
4.Generally preparing mentally (building situational awareness)for the next sector

I'm sure theres an abundant list of other things they could be doing but these I thought seemed to be a minimum.

Thoughts or otherwise?

[commander adama]

The term is CRM.


There is no req't by tech crew to do this. If you can not achieve the above turn around in 25 min you should not be doing the job. The rest of the world seems to manage 25 min turn arounds.

[Kaptin M]

In the early days of the "LCC" which started up here half a dozen years ago, some of the pilots were helping the F/A's do the cleaning on turnarounds - even the engineers were helping out when loads were chockers and turn around times short (the blocked turnaround was also 25 minutes :rolleyes: ).

Not surprisingly, "Notices to pilots" were issued stating that an external check had to be done on every sector.
Later other notices came out, reminding pilots not to (i)exceed the maximum taxi speeds, (ii)to approach parking spots at a "dead slow" taxi speed, (iii)that it was sometimes preferable to take a longer runway for take-off vs the closest one, to stop more engines from being cooked!!

Are we seeing a trend here, due to UNREALISTIC TURN AROUND TIMES being scheduled by suits with little previous operational experience?
SAFETY might be compromised due to pressure the crew feel is being put on them.

The final straw broke when a pilot had his finger(s) either pricked by a used needle, or cut by a razor blade, left in the seatback pocket. :mad:

Need I say, turn around times are now back to sensible levels.
But you can't tell new management - they have plenty of money to burn (because these bright ideas end up COSTING $$$'s) - except on employing proper staff numbers.
You simply cannot expect MINIMUM cabin crew to do their job as F/A's and cleaners, when you are running MAXIMUM loads.

[ditzyboy]

Tech Crew have helped us but I have only done two 25 minute turns since JQ started. Most of my transits have been 35 minutes - hence they have the time to help.

If you look at the schedule more than half the transits are longer than 25 minutes. The whole thing takes four of us about two mins. Most of the time their offer to help comes too late! Guess it's just our boys being nice.

The transit cleans are very easy with JQ. All we do is cross the seat belts and put the safety card at the front of the pocket. The rubbish collection is ever so glamourous and done at top of decent with a rubbish bag.

Any toilet cleaning, bins, soiled carpet etc are dealt with by request from cleaning contractors.

Also we do not 'clean'. We 'tidy' just ask the AIRC. :hmm:

[airsupport]

IF they are, who on Earth is doing the preflights? :uhoh:

Jetstar have elected not to be "Jetsafe" and have an LAME do a preflight as well as one of the Pilots, now you are saying that the Pilots are cleaning the Aircraft on these short turnrounds. :(

Truly a disaster waiting to happen. :{

I just pray that CASA put a stop to this before lives are lost. :{

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

Bravo! Sounds like the pilots are taking real ownership of their product.

I understand Pilots pitching in is not at all uncommon at Virgin Blue.

[planemad2]

What actually decides the minimum turnround time, with any Airline?

With a turnround, not a through flight, I would have thought it would be unloading and reloading the baggage, yes?

Surely this would take longer than any Pilot checks, Hostess checks, refuelling, Engineering checks, catering and of course passenger unloading and reloading?

[LetsGoRated]

airsupport

IF they are, who on Earth is doing the preflights?
We dont do them. Its more important to help clean the cabin.
As you said, we do things this way because we are hanging out for a "disaster." Gee cant wait call the media!!

Its not expected nor does it happen on every turn, but some pilots assist if they have time. Why? Believe it or not pilots and cabin crew in this outfit work as a team. It may supprise some of you, that the whole crew get together at sign on for a full brief on the day ahead. The value of such a simple exercise to teamwork and a smooth operation, has to be experienced to be fully appreciated.

[Sonny Hammond]

Call it teamwork or call it CRM but if you own an airline at this level and carry passengers, you need someone to clean the plane after it has been used.
To not have people to do it, be it cabin crew or otherwise, is simply cutting corners.
Technical crew........mmm think about that.

But if you want to do it, go ahead. Create a culture where it becomes expected for pilots to clean the cabin, and you get yourself a bad name for being someone who doesn't want to clean the cabin.

I really see a conflict in the legal responsibilities of the Captain in particular here, and to a lesser extent the FO.

At the subsequent court of enquiry, the lawyer will ask why was it that briefing was forgotten, why the checklist was omitted, or whatever you can dream up, your response of 'but I was cleaning up someones vomit during the turnaround and my mind was elsewhere' will be headline news.

Good luck.

[airsupport]

LetsGoRated,

I am not that surpised to hear that you don't do them. ;)

It is great that Jetstar crews operate as a tight knit unit, it was similar at Compass.

However, my concern is that compared to other Airlines, Jetstar have the same or less turnround times, and as you do not have an LAME carrying out a preflight safety inspection like the other Airlines, one would hope you do a very thorough preflight inspection of your own, yet you still find time to help clean the cabin as well.

Either you are much more efficient than the Pilots at the other Airlines, or you are not doing all they do, and they have the Engineering assistance too, which is it?

Sorry, you already admitted you don't do a preflight. :(

[Jet Jockey]

I am operating A320s in Europe in the Holiday charter market. They are seated for 180pax. I believe Jetstar is going for 177 config. There is not a hope in hell they will turn an Airbus in that time consistently. It takes at least 10 min just to get the people off. And then 20 min to board. Thats without cleaning. Jetstar is chasing world,s best pratice on world,s lowest pay.
Incidently the seat pitch with that many people is not as bad as you think. It still better than what is on Ryanair aircraft.:yuk:

[Watchdog]

Hey Airsupport,
You sound like an alias for lame???
Funny that lame has disappeared and you have replaced him with the same unsubstantiated claims.
So lame (Airsupport) are you going to answer my question from previous posts yet? What other airlines are you talking about?? "Major" airlines again or "fake" airlines ??

Sonny,
on a 25 min turnaround, the tech crew don't assist with cabin tidy duties as they are busy doing pilot stuff. They only usually assist at the end of the tour of duty.

[Capn Bloggs]

I do my walkaround in 30 seconds, and the worst part about cabin cleaning is having to lift up your feet and put them on the biz class bulkhead while the vacuum cleaner goes under your legs. Bloody annoying when you're trying to read the paper on a 20 minute turn...

[phat boy]

The term is CRM. No it's not. "CRM".. the most often badly applied incorrectly used term these days. Used to describe anything that affects the 'feel-good' atmosphere and/or upsets the delicates if pilots don't help them with the cabin cleaning.

If the pilots/flightdeck crew/cockpit crew don't spend enough time doing their jobs properly then the term is "(bad) AIRMANSHIP". Remember that word?

These days the term CRM is used by just about eveyone else to describe anything the pilots do (or don't do) to make others feel better.

Now I just know the wallies will consider me a CRM nightmare and whatever but what do they know about my 14000 hours? How many emergencies handled? And no problems with respect from AND FOR the lames/dispatchers/hosties I work with...

Nightmare... I don't think so. I just don't have interest in the touchy-feely crap some people seem to feel makes up "good CRM". IE rushing out to help the girls clean the seats. Yeah I'll do it if I'm standing around doing nothing, I suppose.

[airsupport]

Watchdog,

I realise that you obviously have big problems at Jetstar, but your post has me puzzled?

You say I have replaced someone, yet I have been here for over 2 years, and have some 225 posts.

You on the other hand have just turned up, have some 11 posts, and most of them seem to be just attacking other members who dare to even mention Jetstar.

While it is a good thing to defend your Employer, your childish posts are becoming very boring.

Why not spend your time and effort improving safety at Jetstar, God knows it needs it.

[commander adama]

Phat Boy

While I do not support tech crew cleaning the cabins. I don't condone it and it is up to the individual. You have a narrow minded view and wow you have 14000 hours. However you will find they were doing this when Jetstar was Impulse and had longer turn around times or even arrived early. Now a bit of a stretch may be warranted and if a tech crew decides to help out. Well good on him.

what the hell is "TECH" crew???

Well with your 14000 hours of flying I thought you would be familiar with the term.

Have a nice evening:ok:

[phat boy]

You missed the irony, adama. Yeah I know what tech crew means I just find it so ridiculous it makes me laugh when I read peoples' use of the term.

Do you seriously think a pilot came up with that name???

"technical crew" :yuk: Seems to be a quaint local (aussie) bit of terminology.

So you don't support cleaning cabins and you don't condone it either. Huh? You have a very limited outlook, Adama.

[commander adama]

So you don't support cleaning cabins and you don't condone it either. Huh? You have a very limited outlook, Adama.

????????

This forum is full of morons

[phat boy]

So you don't support cleaning cabins and you don't condone it either.

Well you wrote it... :rolleyes: :confused:

Forum full of morons. Yeah I think you're right.

[Watchdog]

airsupport,
like you, i have two logins.

Why not spend your time and effort improving safety at Jetstar, God knows it needs it.
Please justify your statement?

PS. Gooood niiigggghhht "lame":D :D :D

[capt.cynical]

:confused:
And when all this wonderfull team effort achieves regular 25 min. turnarounds will you get a pat on the back girls amd guys.
PIGS B@M. The BEAN COUNTERS will want 20 min. turnarounds.
why bother, you wont be getting the performance bonus.

:mad: :{

[Capn Bloggs]

Phat Boy,
I agree. CRM = I'm the Captain, you're the Resource and I'll Manage you any way I bloody-well like!

[rtforu]

I seem to remember AN pilots having blue shirts years ago. This could work well for LCC pilots as well. Just think about it, they could get up to the elbows in the toilet and they would never stain their shirts.

[airsupport]

I remember when all those other Airlines had Aircraft operating here some time ago, I think it was about 1989 ;) , some of those Pilots could not believe how long it took to turnround their Aircraft in Australia. :rolleyes:

They were used to around 15-20 minute turnrounds. :uhoh:

Mind you, there is NO way I would like to see the standards that some of them operated to becoming the norm in Australia. :{

OBVIOUSLY the Airlines want their Aircraft in the air earning money, NOT sitting on the ground half the day, but some of these turnrounds are getting back to what these foreign Crews wanted in 1989, I truly believe 30 minutes is about the minimum to do it safely, WHATEVER Airline we are talking about. :ok:

[Watchdog]

Hey Airsupport (lame),
Is that "major" airlines or fake airlines?
Why not make all turnarounds 3 hours, that way a service check can be done on every flight by a team of old timers. That would even make it safer!
:= := :=

[Mr Nightmare]

Commander Adama

If you think that pilots cleaning aircraft cabins is an example of CRM in practice, then you need to look at the concept of CRM and its application.

I would have thought that MULTI SKILLING would be a more appropriate term for these "cleaner pilots".

Only thing is that the cleaners probably earn more than a Jetstar F/O.

Maybe your pilot council can negotiate a cleaning allowance in your next EBA.

[HAMO]

From what I remember when I used to help clean the 717's, the only reason the boys used to help with the clean was if they thought they had a chance of getting up close and personal with one of the FA's on the overnight!!!

[Watchdog]

...well....maybe not ALL FA's!! right Ditzboy?:D

[HAMO]

Sorry Watchdog, I should have clarified my statement

What was I thinking!!!

[cunninglinguist]

Jeezuz, I can't believe I waisted 5 minutes of my life sifting through some of the crap in this thread.:yuk:

Ansett in WA, and Airlink ( although not scheduled as 25 ) did 25 minute turnarounds regularly, with the pilots still sitting around with nothing to do for at least 10 of those minutes ( except if refuelling ), the 71 is a similar size A/C.
Any of you guys/gals that can't do your pilot stuff in less than 25 minutes........................retire, you are obviously too slow to be operating a jet.

Someone did make a good point however, 25 minutes will be impossible with a full A320, for no other reason than the time the cattle take to get on and off, especially through one door.

my 2 cents.................

[Pete Conrad]

Adama, I mean thumpa, your the only moron here you moron.

[commander adama]

Gee Pete nice to hear from you. Anyhting else to add or is that it.

[ditzyboy]

The plan is to ALWAYS use both L1 and L2 for boarding and disembarkation.

Also the schedule has 30 minute transits for the 320s. Not sure if that will always be the plan or just while the company gets used to them.

You'd be surprised how quickly boarding happens with free seating. I can't figure out why as haven't seen pax running to the aircraft... It gets a bit messy in the gate lounge though with pax 'rushing' us to tear boarding passes faster. But I don't think boarding has taken longer than 8 minutes on my flights so far.

No doubt using two doors will make it quicker - especially for disembarkation.

And for those of you who are still concerned I have not seen a tech crew help on 25 minute transits. Some even apologising that 'they were busy'. And I assume that it wasn't doing their makeup!

Our 'tidying' tasks only take two minutes so it is usually over by the time the guys get out of the flight deck anyway.

[cyclops camel]

The only reason I can see why cockpit crew would be motivated to help cabin crew with cleaning during a turn is to improve CRM and COCKpit/cabIN relationsHIPS. By that I mean trying to impress some cute tart with your helpfulness in an atttempt to get your ... (please read above capitals!). ;)

[LetsGoRated]

Hey cyclops, thats it!!! Love it!:p

[phat boy]

Well I was thinking the same thing but generally spelling out the obvious that clearly doesn't usually go down so well around here. Some dorks like to think it's all about "CRM"..... Do they even know what it is?

CRM helping to prevent a disaster? Which disaster...... other than a bad case of Toxic S____m Overload. :yuk:

*imagines a pilot cleaning up cabin crap just to be nice* :confused:

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA..... ! ! ! :E :} ;) :)

:(

[commander adama]

Gee Phat

Maybe thats why you have 14000 hours of circuits. You will learn someday son. Well. May be not. :ok:

and

Anyhting should be anything:{

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Ditzy boy, Im not sure who you have been flying with, but I have found that 25 minute turn arounds allow no time for vacuming.

[captain_josh18]

Ditzy... your right


I have done a fair few 25 minute turn arounds, and providing that everyone helps out and everything goes to plan, then it should all go well.

I know in MEL we have a concourse person, who meet and greets all arriving aircraft, i have done a fair bit of this position and have an absolute ball, meeting crew and gaining friendships! By the end of the week we all know each other. Anyway, if this person gets the aircraft ontime,which i dont recall anyone
missing a flight, helps get everyone off, including SSR's then everyone is normally off within 8-20 mins. Then, depending on the person, i usuaally help with the crossing of seatbelts and picking up rubbish, cutting cleaning time.

However, its also the CSO at the checkin's role that plys a vital role in the turn around. If they are continuring to check-in after the 30 minute cut off, then there is noway that the aircraft will get away ontime! Some CSO's let people in 5 mins after closing,giving them only 3 mins to get from the checkin to the gate... impossible! So we dont wait in MEL, once 30 mins is gone and noone in the line, sign closed... seeya later. everyone knows the rules... rules for one rules for all! If everyone can manage to get there between 2 hours and 30 mins prior, so can you.

So if all that goes well and everyone is off ontime, as soon as the CSO arrives at the gate the cabin crew should be ready for boarding. With team work and Infants, Wheelies and elderly first to board before other pax, they are out the way and wont slow the process down. Boarding takes only 10 mins, Takes 3 mins to get everything signed and checked... door closed, aerobridge back.. Seeya later... Off blocks in, and most times just under the 25 mins, depending on how everyone works together. I do admit that we have some people with us that slow the turnaround time down, but we will get there, we have olny been operating 2 weeks.

Ok im finishing babbly crap... just giving the way the turn arounds go when im on concourse.. cause if the CSO's are up here when im about to board, i either ring them or radio them to tell them to hurry up.

Ditzy, i havnt ever seen the pilots cleaning, and when cabin crew require vaccuming, i try to help wheever posible, depending on other flights arriving. But i you dont believe me...get a stop watch and go sit at the airport... It can be done! and Jetstar will prove that, and some of us have already prooved it.

Ok ill shutup now! :D

OOOOOOOOOPSIES!!!!!

Ok ok ok!! I meant 8-10 mins NOT 8-20mins!!

Not used to typing on the laptop! Please dont eat my head off this time for some dumb mistake! Hey at least i corrected it straight away fo you! :):)

[Obie]

I think, ditzyboy, that it's about time that you vacated these forums and gathered with your "abnormal lot", rather than trying to mix it with us here...

you're obviously out of your depth and, quite frankly, you're an embarrassment to yourself as well to us!...

you need to go elsewhere! :rolleyes:

[captain_josh18]

woah dude!!!


that was kinda harsh!

just remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion... not starting any bitchfights or anything

[phat boy]

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA ! ! ! So speaks Tasmania ! ! :} Do they have special keyboards for the 11th digit?

Is it the "ditzy" image you have a problem with? Yeah... I guess the whole drag and affected voice and mannerisms thing does tend to grate at times in the "mans' world" of piloting. :* I assume - sorry, presume - that's the problem?

It's no big deal you know.

I remember one time a crewchange and this queer CSD greeted the next one who was one of his mates. They were all like "That'th jutht THOOOPER, Daaahhhling!!!" in the galley and I couldn't take it anymore in my workplace. I felt herass-ed and my stomach was turning so I threw them BOTH OFF!!!! :ok: Simple.

Anyway I don't think ditzyboy is really a boy. Says on profile "hostess". :confused:

Chill dudes...... :cool:

[Eastcoasting]

Obie,

The topic of discussion I believe is "Jetstar cabin cleaning". So I suggest if you have nothing of importance to add, that it is you that should "go elsewhere" as you put it.

Ditzy at least works for Jetstar, so I'm sure he knows whats going on there in regard to this topic. Just because he is cabin crew does not make his opinions any less valuable than a driver's point of view.

With an attitude such as yours, I'm sure your cabin crew(that is if you do fly something with more than 19 seats) much cherish every moment they spend on duty with you. Now don't be so nasty and grow up!:*

[Pete Conrad]

Adama, Adama, Adama...........no, I don't have anything to add, except that your writing style is very similar to:

Totally
Hopeless
Uninspiring
Moronic
Person
Adama

You get it? THUMPA!!!!

[Dexter]

hows about the lard arzes that sit in their orifices alls the day playin on the Intanet an havin there tea/cofee brakes evry 30 minuts and 1 hour for lunch get out and helps!

for every hour spend at work the crews must be the most preductive. they dont get to stair orf into space when they get bored!

[commander adama]

Gee Petey

I am so flattered. I am obviously making an impact on your miserable little life. May be one day Australia will accept you back

:ok:

[Sonny Hammond]

Actually the discussion is about whether or not pilots are doing cabin cleaning.
Which it appears that they are at least occasionally doing so.

I think most interested in this topic would already have an understanding of the logistics involved in turning an aircraft around, but thanks for the run down of the jetstar ops.

[cunninglinguist]

Using 2 doors ?
So not planning on parking at any aerobridges then .

[Pete Conrad]

No actually Assdama, you don't Impulse, oops, I mean impact on any ones life, certainly not mine. You already made a dick of yourself when you were thumpa with your outlandish remarks about everybody else who posts on this board.

Bye bye Assdama.

[ditzyboy]

Obie -
By providing factual information, based on my experience I was contibuting positively toward the thread. Unlike yourself - a small man with a distinct cheesy smell.

cunninglinguist -
DJ use two doors, including one with a aerobridge all the time in SYD and MEL. The aerobridge is obviously at L1 and L2 has stairs where pax walk across the tarmac then up stairs into the terminal just by the side of the aerobridge. Dunno what JQ are going to do.

[Obie]

We're talking rear gunners code are we DB? :rolleyes:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Ditzy bloke. You paint a hyped up negative picture of the operation. Maybe another forum would be more apropriate.

Obie, I got a laugh out of that one.

DM

[ditzyboy]

DM -
Negative? I thought I was being positive. :rolleyes: I never said tech crew helped on short transits. I agreed with you about the tech crew not having time to play cleaning on a 25 minute transit. And I have never seen them with a vacuum.

How so was I being negative? I was just stating what I have witnessed happening online. If anything I thought I was being positive. I have re-read all my posts and cannot see any point where I was negative as you say.

Obie -
Rear Gunner's??? (Did you make that up?) No code, mate. Was calling you a w@nker.

[PVC Pants]

I have seen several occasions where both the Capt. and FO are in the cabin crossing belts and tidying. I would imagine, of course that they would only do this to when they have completed their checks and bizzo in the Flight Deck?

Crew are ALWAYS EXTREMELY GRATEFUL for their assistance and support & in my opinion it really adds to the whole CRM thing, which is fantastic.

It is certainly not expected of them, however the guys and girls from the Flight Deck show they "care", at the end of the day!

Thumbs up for "helping" us out.....beautiful :ok: :ok: :ok:

Love "Pants" x ;)

[captmicka]

i think it is good that airline pilots are helping out the cabin crew. promotes good crm and breaks down the barrier between flight crew and cabin crew. safety comes first and i wouldnt rush a preflight to help cabin crew do a job that is actually in their job decription.

[PVC Pants]

Absolutely right Captmicka!

I am sure Cabin Crew would NEVER expect you guys and gals (Flight Crew) to jeopardise safety and having to do your pre-flight checks in the flight deck whatsoever...
Had a Pilot tell me today...he was sorry that he couldn't get to the cabin and help out, as they were busy! A true CHAMPION I say....need I say anymore :ok:

Luv "Pants" ;) xxx


"......always flying by the seat of my pants......"

[Capt_Zoolander]

What a wank!

Does anyone here really believe that pilots cleaning up cabin will save their airline from going down the drain??

I have to agree that the most likely reason that the new recruits want to "help out" is to "get lucky" with the FA's (Cabin crew, Female in most cases)

How about getting some of the shiny arse management to help out, and I'm not just taking about a "PR" exercise but every day.

Turn around is usually held up by baggage loading, particularly when containers are NOT used.

Good Luck,

Derek

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[amos2]

Hmmm!...low cost carriers staffed with low standard personel. I guess they go together.

But, Hey! We all want that these days don't we?

Mc Donald airlines!

Ya want fries with that? :O

[Hugh Jarse]

Some interesting posts re crew helping crew.

Where I work it's nothing to do with company influence. It's teamwork in an environment where most of the crew are pretty good mates anyway. If we have the time on turnaround we'll help the cabin crew tidy up at outports. That's the way it's been for the 10 years I've been where I am.

Anyway, it works both ways. Quite regular is the occurence that the F/A's will help put the pins and bungs in on terminating flights.

What's wrong with that?:confused:

[Obie]

...and this is called work share and multi- skilling I suppose?

[Capt_Zoolander]

Hugh Jarse said,

"cabin crew tidy up at outports. That's the way it's been for the 10 years I've been where I am.
Anyway, it works both ways. Quite regular is
the occurence that the F/A's will help put the
pins and bungs in on terminating flights.

What's wrong with that?"


Nothing if you work for a small outfit, I suppose.

What most of us are referring to is "helping out" on a B737, A320 or bigger A/C, at say Sydney or Melbourne.


Derek

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Kaptin M]

So...how ARE these 20 minute turnarounds going, not that you J* folk have been operating with them for some time?

Anyone care to hazard a guess what %age of flights actually achieve it?

[ditzyboy]

Kapt -
They are 25 min transits. 20 mins is a tad optimistic. There is VERY FEW of them blocked in the schedule. It has always been that way. I reckon the precentage of 25 min transits would be around 10%.

You will find them alot in the morning between the first and second flight. Normally there is no pre-existing delays yet and the cabin is relatively clean. You only ever see 25 min transits at out ports where everything seems to happen quicker anyway.

Haven't seen any 25 min transits blocked for the 320s - only on the 717.

25 min transits are very achievable - even on the 320s. I just don't think it would be clever scheduling as there would be no room for delay. All 320 tranists are blocked at 30 mins. The new schedule has some at 35 mins so maybe there has been some problems getting them truned around.

I have been on flights where we have turned a 320 around in 25 mins but I think the PTS would be hard to follow. They allow 17 mins for the free-for-all that is boarding but it only ever takes 6-8 mins at the best of times.

[Sky_hi!]

Hi All

I have not been working for Jetstar long, but from what Ditz has described in his posts i have to agree with him. I really must emphasise its not cleaning the cabin its TIDYING, seriously thats all it is! It takes 2 mins to cross the seatbelts and place the safety card at the front of the seat pocket. Its not that bigger deal. And vacumming? There is a vacuum cleaner there but we aren't 'required' to use it. As for the pilots helping out i have seen it a bit, but only at the end of a duty or a longer transit. I think its great! Jetstar has a great team ethic. If we can all pitch in and help each other out, then it makes for a better, happier work environment. Well thats just what i reckon anyway! There definately are a few grumpy bums on this forum!

happy flying :)

[jakethemuss]

This from the FAAA website http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/domestic/jetstar/industrial/jet23-04.htm


JET23-04 - 8 September, 2004


REMINDER - Vacuuming The Aircraft

This is just a timely reminder vacuuming the aircraft has never been and is still not part of our tidying procedures during aircraft turnarounds.

Our EBA covers our expected duties, if the company requires further assistance from flight attendants for example vacuuming, we should be paid accordingly and this should be done through negotiation.

Jetstar flight attendants are already assisting above and beyond the conditions in our EBA by collecting rubbish from seats on each turnaround, we all know this was not procedure prior to the start up of Jetstar!

Other Jetstar Employees Vacuuming

The relationship and culture we have had with our pilots, ground staff and management to date has been very rare and unique and we don’t want to see this deteriorate any further. There have been many reports of pilots, tac’s and base managers using the vacuums in front of flight attendants inferring “if we can do it why can’t you guys”. Please stand back and let them do this if they so desire; you are not to feel bad about other Jetstar employees cleaning the aircraft. Remember when we were Impulse/Qantas Link, cleaners came on every turnaround and did the same thing. If they are happy performing a duty that they are not paid for and one that someone else used to do, then that’s their business.

At this stage, flight attendants are not required to nor are they paid to clean the aircraft during turnarounds, (you might also ask the question on when we would have time for this in 25 minutes, but that’s another argument for another day). As advised in our previous newsletter, we are all employed under our relevant Enterprise Agreements and currently our Agreement provides for a tidying procedure, a procedure that has never included vacuuming the aircraft on our turnarounds. The Company has stated time and time again that it is committed to the current EBA, well so should we be. If the Company want cleaning to be a new part of our duties and it can be demonstrated that there is no other alternative, then the negotiation table is the place for those discussions to take place, not on board, not on the ground, not in front of other Jetstar staff, only at the negotiating table.

Harassment In The Workplace

It is most disconcerting to your Association and representatives to be advised that flight attendants are being pressured and feeling subsequently harassed by various Jetstar employees, be that management, ground staff or during training courses, to use the vacuum cleaners. Your Association and representatives continue to seek your assistance in providing us with information on these instances as they occur, we see this as encouraging you to work outside the provisions of your EBA.

Our strong advice to members is that regardless of your personal commitment to your EBA and the conditions contained therein, you cannot instruct another flight attendant to either use or not to use the vacuum cleaners. Advising someone of their current EBA conditions, the conditions that you are being paid for, is all you can do. Individuals have a choice and their choice is their own. The FAAA and its representatives do not and will not advocate harassment in the workplace. We strongly advise all flight attendants to be mindful of how your comments could be perceived by someone else.

Remember, the test for harassment in the workplace is not what you say, or indeed how you say it, it is how the person you are talking to feels about what you have said.

Now quite clearly this works both ways in the “should I vacuum, shouldn’t I vacuum” debate. However inferring that crew have an obligation to and indeed new trainees being told they have to, use the vacuum cleaners has done a good enough job of dividing flight attendants on this issue. As a group, it is up to us to ensure this does not get any worse. We all know that we are much better off when we stay united.

Perhaps it would be better for flight attendants to keep a copy of this newsletter with them when flying and if approached and somehow encouraged, in whatever way, to use the vacuum cleaners, you could simply pass on the advice your Association and representatives have provided you with.

Members are directed to comply with their EBA and current practices by continuing to tidy the aircraft. This DOES NOT include using the portable carpet sweepers.

This newsletter was written by the Jetstar Team and authorised by Jo Ann Davidson, Divisional President and Dannielle Morgan, Senior Industrial Organiser


So, there you go fellas. The hosties are not going to be sadie the cleaning lady on the aircraft. But it seems the metrosexual Pilots are going to be housemaids..

You Blokes have got to be kidding. Have some pride!!!!!!!!!!

[fredrake]

ditzyboy one reason you can board pax that fast is that you cancel pax tickets if they do not check in 30 mins before scheduled departure. even if the flight is running late.
saw two pax yelling at check in chick in Sydney about this, their flight was delayed by 15 mins and they arrived 5 mins late, thus 40 mins prior to actual departure.
were forced to buy new tickets.
not good PR.

[commander adama]

jakethemuss


Well Jake thanks for the informative post. It just illustrates how far in the clouds some flight attendants are. Ever heard of doing a little bit just to help out and help cement a future. Vacuming? Yeah maybe once every 4 sectors. You also give backing as to why the worlds great and old airlines are going backwards. Keep it up. Eventually you will have no job. Bring in the contract companies you clowns.

[jakethemuss]

Adama,

If you have time to vacuum on a 25 minute turnaround then good luck to you.

If you think that the savings made to the company by not employing cleaning staff help you kill legacy airlines then good luck to you.

You are a PILOT (I take the liberty of presuming) not a bloody cleaner!

You are paid pretty average wages by all accounts so the savings from not employing cleaners are not handed back to you in your pay packet. Where do they go?

Joyce's Bonus, Oldmeadow's consultancy fees, Gissing's Bonus?

I say again, HAVE SOME PRIDE!

[Mr.Buzzy]

Get over yourself Jake!
No pilot is ever told or asked to clean or tidy or whatever else you think pilots should not do. Would u suggest that standing around watching when your own duties are complete would encourage a happy team?

Have some pride indeed and pitch in!

Just look at where QF flighties have found themselves by towing the hard line!

[Chief Chook]

Just look at where QF flighties have found themselves by towing the hard line! How about you just look at where the previous cleaning staff have found themselves, now that you are gladly volunteering to do the work that provided them and their families with an income, Jake and Mr Buzzy!

If the "suits" have some much spare time on their hands, that they can afford to leave their desk and come to the aircraft to do some vacuuming, why not bring them into their management role on a part time basis and on casual pay rates, to save the Company some money?
At the bloated salaries they receive, they would HAVE to be the most expensive cleaners in all of Australia!

[commander adama]

Chief Chook

THe old attack and blame on management is a little worn out and getting a wee bit boroing.

If the "suits" have some much spare time on their hands, that they can afford to leave their desk and come to the aircraft to do some vacuuming, why not bring them into their management role on a part time basis and on casual pay rates, to save the Company some money?

Comeon you can do better than that.

[Chief Chook]

Perhaps it's justified, commanderhttp://pprune.org/forums/images/icons/snoop1.gif

The old, attack the wages and conditions of the workers at the coalface whilst rewarding management for the "increased productivity", is wearing MORE than a bit thin.
It's time to offload some of the parasites that are sucking the lifeblood out of airline companies.

Airline management has been the biggest employee growth area over the past dozen years. It's an area whose almost sole sphere of concentration is reduction of employee numbers, increase in work hours and decrease in income. By reducing everyone else's conditions, they justify their own.
The only way they can continue justifying their existence is by continued further erosion of others.

Is that better?http://pprune.org/forums/images/icons/46.gif

[Gnadenburg]

Vacuming aircraft!:yuk:

Another group of Australian pilot "revolutionariers".

What irks many of us though, pilot mugs in Australia pay for endorsements, then work for whatever is offered, clean the aircraft and then try their darndest to get into better airline positions ( as evidenced by Jetstar pilots applying aggressively to Emirates and Dragon Air within days of having their licenses stamped Airbus ).

Incidentally, gifted individuals who can set up an Airbus, brief crew and browse opertational documents, vacum an aircraft, all in under 20 minutes.

[relax737]

Let's go rated, you can justify anything to yourself, but inm y opinion you are makinga mistake if you are calling it CRM.

Before you know it, it will be expected and yo will be considered a prick by those very same people you sought to include in your touchy, feely briefings.

Down't downgrade your status by cleaning cabins. When did the FAs last come and help you when things got busy up front, in the interests of CRM.

KaptinM got it right when he mentioned needlestick from assisting with the cleaning. Small risk, but a risk nevertheless.

I'm the Captain of the aircraft and I will involve the Fas in briefings etc. to the extent that they need to be included in the interests of good CRM, but as for cleaning cabins, forget it. If my employer required it he'd be told to get lost.

[just a groundhog]

It's as obvious as the nose on your faces guys,

This Commander Adama person is a Management stooge.

Don't be fooled by his feeble attempts at a windup...

Do what his moma does and ignore his blathering.

You must have lots of friends mate!

[balance]

Whilst I agree that he should be largely ignored, I dont think that adama is management. His writing skills are woeful, and his opinions bizarre.

Wait, hang on, maybe he IS management!:} :} :}