Would you give it all up?

[Straightandlevel80kt]

I was dropped from an airline sponsorship after 9/11. Whilst figuring out what to do next, I got my PPL. I am 28, £5K in debt and earning £18K per year. I haven't flown since November.

What do you think I should do?

[Pirate]

It depends so much on your personal circumstances, alternative career prospects, commitment to flying for a living and much else. Thus, it's hard for an outsider to advise you. All I can suggest is that you take a large sheet of paper and write down all the things that incline you to persevere on one side and all the reasons for calling it a day on the other. Look hard at it and have a long think. If it's pointing to calling a halt, end of story. If you convince yourself you want to continue you will have to come to terms with taking on an enormous burden of debt with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

Flying isn't the job it was, and I say this regretfully after thirty five years in the business. If you have an alternative that will give you fulfilment and pay the bills ask if you really want to spend up to £50K for the privilege of working yourself to a frazzle with a low-cost carrier. Some do and there is still enjoyment to be had but the alarm going off at 0300 on a regular basis soon loses its novelty.

If you're mad keen to fly, go for it. Most of us have been there and we understand what drives people. But go into it with your eyes open. It's no bed of roses. Good luck, either way.

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Pirate

It's been a weird couple of years. I was resigned to doing nothing in 2002/03 because I was enjoying my PPL for its own sake. Then someone suggested we pay for an ATPL ourselves, and I realized someone had prodded a sleeping lion that might have been better left alone!

I deliberately left out the fact that I ducked out of a loan-funded integrated course in February before it started. I realized just in time that I had been sold a dream, but it really knocks the stuffing out of you when you discover your own judgement was flawed for so long. Confidence hits rock bottom.

Frankly I just don't believe that these guys are gonna get jobs. It's like watching lambs to the slaughter. The whole credit card and endowment mortgage thing all over again!

My heart says fly for fun, but I've lost my nerve a bit. It's not the risk of dying, it's the risk of throwing my money away.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Pilot Pete]

The thing is Straightandlevel80kt

If you want it enough and are realistic and have your head screwed on the right way round you WILL make it happen. It might take much longer than anticipated, it might cost more than you planned. It might lead to broken relationships, it might lead to a whole load of other problems, but if you want it enough and you have the ability, you will do whatever it takes to secure employment.

Many have done this in the past and there are plenty who went through the 'bad times' in the early 90s with no job, no prospects, no money and little else. The ones who stuck at it and instructed or whatever else to keep the hours ticking over, who never gave up because it got hard, eventually reaped their reward. I know two such characters who now work for UK airlines and sure, yes, we all know a handful who got out when the times were hard and went on to do something else. Look who is where they want to be now though. Determination is a huge factor in getting that break, alongside a bit of luck, which incidently comes to those who go actively searching for it.

What to do? Exactly what Pirate suggests. I made a list in 1996 (Churchillian style I believe that is?) with reasons to stay in my current job against reasons to leave. The list was 20:1 in favour of leaving. I'm now sitting up front in a 75/767 and loving every minute of it and I've seen a few 'bumps' in the road post 9/11 but still haven't regretted any choice that I have made.................

Good luck

PP

[PPRuNeUser0162]

Straightandlevel80kt, what was the course that you decided not to pursue? I'm trying to get into the industry and am interested why you didn't think it was going to work.

[piperindian]

i went for a modular jar ATPL (self-funded).
I financed it by working full-time at the same time and it wasnt easy.
I will be blunt. Its definitely the worst mistake i ever did. Very very few of the guys and gals have found work as pilot (almost none as a fact)
Its not like a degree, a degree does not cost you 60K. (even Harvard does not cost so much, i think a Master of Law in harvard is more like 40K). Also, the JAR ATPL theory isn’t easy and takes one year.

Note that the FAA system is different and the US license is cheaper + you can build time (esp multi) more easily (but the job market seems awful there also at the moment)

I dont understand this enthousiasm for the JAR system. Some JAA countries dont even recognise your JAA license like the frogs and the jerries ! This JAA ATPL is a very bad joke and a big big scam by flight schools
i think the integrated course is even worse since its more expensive and they ask sometimes up to 100k, + MCC

my advice : stay with a PPL or whatever but avoid the JAR ATPL like the plague

[Pirate]

Piperindian,

You obviously don't like the JAA licensing system but that isn't really germane to the thread and in any case, it's the only one we've got. It's new and has a number of glitches needing to be ironed out, not helped by the collegiate way it has been assembled - i.e. collating the prejudices of all the representative member states. The FAA system is by no means flawless, incidentally, although I agree it is cheaper for the aspiring pilot in terms of actually obtaining a professional license which counts for a lot with those seeking to enter the profession.

JAA will come good in time but that is of little comfort for those stuck with the system today. The only way through is to grit the teeth and get on with it, I'm afraid. As to cost, it's not cheap but I can't see anyone spending £100K. The Oxford Airline Preparation Programme which has everything including B747 simulator training is approximately £61K, including VAT and there are certainly cheaper packages around, especially for an experienced PPL who would qualify for the Modular route.

The airline business was once described as a lottery based on one's date of birth. Some things don't change!

confundemus

[Jinkster]

Pilot Pete,

Good to hear it is all worth the hard work!

Right...back to the books, exams next week :\

Jinkster :ok:

[MorningGlory]

Pilot Pete once again as always has put the wheels in the right place at the right speed: If you want it enough and are realistic and have your head screwed on the right way round you WILL make it happen. It might take much longer than anticipated, it might cost more than you planned. It might lead to broken relationships, it might lead to a whole load of other problems, but if you want it enough and you have the ability, you will do whatever it takes to secure employment.

I was once accused unjustly as being silly giving up a very good career to do something that was just "a dream"...... Always makes me smile when I think of that, as i'm in the right hand seat of a 737 now, even after training during 9/11..... sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and smile back in the face of adversity!

Best of luck with your choice!

MG.

[RVR800]

Im with PiperIndian somepeople like PilotPete get Lucky
but its a huge gamble

Its true to say that winnners never quit and quitters never win
although there are a lot of 40 something people in this industry
who have not quit but not won either.....

Time is not on their side there are hundreds of people out there..

[JoeCo]

There is no doubt that this industry is not easy. Some days are good, some days are not. Some periods or time are good, and some are not. This whole industry was onced described to me as a Yo-Yo. You'll have your ups and you'll also have your downs. And that still holds true to this day. Timing is a factor, but regardless of that, you have to be up for the ride. Take the good with the bad. If you are up for the ride, then most will agree that the rewards are worth it, but only you can decide whether you want to hop on or not. But keep in mind that there are no free rides in life so think about it wisely.

But to answer your question, would I give it all up, ...well trust me, it has crossed my mind more times then I would like to believe, but no, I'm going to stick with it.

All the best and try and stay positive about it.

Joe

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Thanks troops for the interesting and thought-provoking replies. All points noted! I think I might jack it all in, in favour of something fun like air racing or microlighting.

Jinkster - best of luck with the exams. It must do your head in looking at these forums!

Britboy - It would be wrong of me to say which course I decided not to follow, firstly because that would be unprofessional (particularly if I ever decide I do want to train there), and secondly, from a political perspective, I have no idea who you are. You could be one of the course sales team! However, I'm prepared to state my case.

Fundamentally I believe that pilot supply grossly outweighs demand, which means that money talks assuming all else is equal (i.e. you are a good interview candidate for the role of future senior manager in an airline). Unfortunately I am overstretched just to borrow the basic cost of the course, and that's before you consider type ratings and basic living expenses and a roof over my head after graduation.

I'm a strong believer in weighing up the pro's and cons, and for me the cons outnumbered the pros.

If funding an integrated fATPL was a business, the accounts would not add up. I would be bust within 18 months and securing a return on my investment without further borrowing would be reliant on nothing more than luck. I believe in preparation and giving myself options, not luck. Luck should be a bonus, not something that inspires you to take blind risks.

Whilst I do not believe anyone has the right to expect a living without putting in some hard work, it speaks volumes that an airline will remain "interested" in my flying future but is not prepared to make a commitment to reflect my putting the rest of my financial life on the line, in the form of at least an interview. The funny thing is, I think this is a perfectly reasonable stance for an airline to take, because it is their way of telling me that if I am foolish enough to gamble my life on the role of a dice then on my own head be it.

If I was an airline I would have serious doubts about employing someone who would take such a risk with their own life to fly one of my jets filled with members of the public.

[b025053]

Thing is, looking at it from that perspective, it was never ever wise for anybody to consider self funding to professional training with the hope for luck and a fair tale wind to land a line of jobs puting them eventually where they want to be!

The supply always will outway the demand, but there will always be a demand. As long as the pumps keep pushing there finely tuned strokes and oil flows pilots will be required.

Wether or not things are harder now, risk is greater and the cost more, then yes I would agree.

However, I believe there are four types of people. Those that start training and give up, those that train and get jobs, those that train and never get employed and those who talk about it and never actually do anything but waste there time, money and effort.

Unfortunately im of the latter. Ive ventured year on year towards training, virtually have a PPL, lost ££££ to FTO that have gone down the tubes with my CDLs but not made any dent on the requirement (which grows by the day).

Im only 22, which is gonna help, but ive no chance of even financing a complete course, no matter making myself competitive with hours and ratings. So do I give up? Do I forget it? Will I be sat there in my rocking chair at 80 saying "what if?"

There is not a lot to drive us to persevere with this, the feedback we get from people doing the job is mainly negative. Yet we are somehow expected to magically get through it because we've taken the risks, breath the dream and know all along were going to make it.

Sad thing is, right now, id be happier with debt to my eyeballs and no job, but a completed OATS APP under my belt and the thought ive given it everything ive got and that I knew in my heart of hearts I could do it:\

[PPRuNeUser0162]

Fair point Straightandlevel80kts, I guess I was a little naive for my first post.

I've recently stumbled across these forums and was just asking a question.

My situation is this: I've recently passed some tests towards some form of scheme (deliberately being vague for the same reasons you put) and having read posts on here about the levels of loan repayments, I've been drastically put off... I was just inquiring as you seemed to be in a similar, but more advanced, situation.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments and to be honest, am very close to giving up before even starting... Personally it's far too big a financial risk with no guaranteed job at the other end. :(

[redsnail]

Perhaps something to consider. We all saw the big hiring boom in the late 90's into 2000 in Europe (in particular, UK). One of the things that fuelled that was deregulation of the aviation industry in 1997. This allowed the lo-co's to literally explode in growth.
Is that explosion ever likely to happen again? Personally, I would say no. There will be growth of course, but certainly never at the rate we saw in the late 90's.
Are you prepared to do a low paying flying job to get the hours required to be attractive to the bigger airlines?
The pay you're looking at is around 10-16K for possibly 2-3 years. That's if you are lucky.

[Pub User]

b025053

"The feedback we get from people doing the job is mainly negative."

Really?

I don't know anyone 'doing the job' who doesn't think that it's much much MUCH better than having to work for a living.

[b025053]

My reference was to those users who offer there opinions on "our" situation as wannabees and who promptly tell us that, if they had there time again they wouldn't spend it in either L/RHS and skip the ballache it took them to achieve it. I take there point, but would risk it to make my own opinion.

There are those professionals like PP who always offer the now predictable and warmly received positive replies to flight training and the rocky road ahead!-PP we thank you!:ok:

However, going back to the thread and veering from sideline details. Surely, what with increased costs and requirements folk are opting to stay away from professional flight training, which can only be good for those who sacrafice everything to achieve it.
Forcasts show, to the horror of environmentalists (or is that mentalists?) that air travel is set to increase drastically- the government supporting that with extensions to stanstead and other airports. The figure of 500M by 2020 stays in my head. Now short of a woldwar or some nutter anually flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper, things will get better.

How though, will the demand for pilots be reflected by the airlines? What we need is figures, showing how many people graduate year on year from FTO's with fATPLs and nice shiney wings, how many people, experianced crews sit patiently in the pool and how many crews are required in total by UK companies.
Surely, once the pool of standbys has been absorbed, airlines and companies will be forced to taking on low houred straight out of flight school second officers.

So planning training now may not be such a bad idea. Sure once its all over theres going to be heartache at not having the job and your gonna go back to whatever it was you did before, but maybe just maybe itl work out. That said, thats subject to training not changing between your graduation and the big demand period. Typical of the airlines to go after people with shiney passes than those sat idle in the accounts office for three years:rolleyes:

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Britboy

I know of a couple of schemes out there which charge people for aptitude testing just to introduce them to banks. Having been through such a scheme, I believe them to be a waste of money and a con. I've nothing against charging for testing and interviews if there is a tangible sponsorship or career at the end, but you and I and everyone else (hopefully) on Pprune knows that at the moment we can all walk into a bank, show them we have two arms and two legs and know that they will fall over backwards to throw money at us.

All the best.
:ok: