Flight Training with SKYVEST....beware!!!!!

[swingdog]

I would like to bring to your attention to an advert in the world Airnews may 2004, a company by the name of SKYVEST. I got burned by this guy about ten years ago and lost a lot of money. I had to pay upfront!!! Anyone know who i am talking about? A leopard does not change its spots!!! OH and i forgot they stink as well!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!:( :{ :mad: :mad: :mad: :ouch: :yuk:

[Longdrop]

Never heard of them, but the best way to find out about a school is to talk to the students training there. I wouldn’t write off any school because some guy says he got shafted ten years ago, especially if he is anonymous. At least put a name to your statement and be prepared to take the heat if its unfounded

[swingdog]

Longdrop,this guy has been ripping people off for the past ten years, and he will continue to do so..The problem is that he takes cash up front for services offered.Send me a pvt message and i will contact you. If you have up to "600 hours of multi - crew line experience on multi engined advanced turboprop a/c " what do you care!!!!! .As for proof i will give you the contact details of my lawyers.

[Gunship]

Lo Swindog from "botwana" :E .

I have searched and searched and I think I have a bit of an idea re flight schools in SA but could find nothing ... you sure SA ? :confused:

[Stephen Stark]

Longdrop

I believe that guy is very well reputed in the industry, a company I used to work for used to hire him on a regular basis... But besides, this really sounds like an excellent training package, do you know anyone who has been through it besides swingdog?

[Longdrop]

Nope don’t know anyone that has been through it, I was sent the above details by a friend, a long time ago and after finding the advert, remembered seeing it. He was considering joining and wanted to know my thoughts……unfortunately/fortunately he couldn’t afford it. I agree Johan O is well known in the Industry, I have not heard anything but good about him.

[swingdog]

longdrop, what is your total time? Listen to an old man, this is not a smear campaign against the said owner.He is very well known in the industry in South Africa. What you seem to fail to point out is, what he is so well known for!!!!!!!. You paint this rosy picture for all would be students trying to build hours and getting a good deal at half the price of a C172, P2 on metro's, what you have to concider is this,. 100hrs P1 on a 172(command time) or 200 P2 on a metro, i know what i would rather have!!!! Did you read the small print "PAY UP FRONT IN FULL". .What is your relationship to the above mentioned person.Out of intrest longdrop where are these metro's actually based in JNB? Reg'S?,company name ect that operate these A/C , so that we as the public can make an informed decision. Ask your mate!!

Wide Glide, glad to hear that i am not the ony one to have been hit by this "likeable Guy" NICE essay long drop but sadly no cigar!!!,We have to get the word out about doggy opperations.KAKHOUSE...do you not care about the reputation of South African Aviation??????

[Longdrop]

Swingdog, I haven’t passed judgment, in fact I have tried to be as neutral as possible…..as for my logbooks, got enough of them to form an opinion. I fail see the story I supposedly told, I mealy posted the gumph that was given to a friend. This sight is about enlightenment and in truth, thought my post brought substance to what you claimed.

[wheels up]

This sort of scheme sickens me to the core. Here you have an individual that has been treated well by the industry in South Africa, but instead of now putting something back starts hacking away at the roots to suck out more. If this sort of scheme perpetuates then only the rich will be able to progress in a career in aviation. PAYING TO WORK IS IMMORAL and destroys the foundations on which this industry is built.

Furthermore, it raises some very serious questions about the impartially of this particular DE and also the quality of the crew that will be flying these aircraft. Are you likely to fail a candidate that is prepared to pay you to fly R200 000, R300 000 to work for you??

I suggest that anyone considering this scheme do their homework. There are plenty of pilots out there that have lost money to the individual concerned, I have met a couple.

[Longdrop]

I agree he should be paying a Commercial Pilot to fill the seat, however while there are people out there prepared to pay, this sort of thing will continue, it’s not unlike a training bond………..perhaps he should charge more, pay the guys and have them sign a contract period. ( a joke swingdog !! ) A problem I see arising is when a crew member decides that he is a client rather than part of the crew

[B Sousa]

Paying to fly is nothing new. Here in the states lots of companies Whore themselves to get lowtimers paying to make them money. Problem is how else are some of these folks going to get time..
Its a matter of economics, not morals. If you think that money is not the motive of ANY company your in real trouble. People are just a tool to facilitate the end result.
Dont know that I would be paying anyone upfront these days. Seems it just goes to feed the lawyers when the companies go under and the owners have all their Duckets hidden somewhere.

[wheels up]

I don't dispute that making a profit is the underlying driving factor behind any business. However, a balance needs to be struck somewhere along the line for the overall good of the industry. Unfortunately, you will always find individuals whose only consideration is making a quick buck.

Rotating co-pilots every 200 hours means that that there is never actually a fully functioning crew on board, especially when you consider that many of the P2s will only have 200 hours total time when they start flying the aircraft. If you were employing P2s for your Metroliner, would a 200 hour fresh com be your first choice if safety and not economics was your primary motive??

This cannot be equated to a training bond. The purpose of a training bond is to cover the cost of training should the pilot decide to leave the company before the company has seen a return on its training investment. A training bond covers the cost of the initial conversion, thereafter the pilot earns an appropriate salary. It is not expected that the pilot leaves as soon as he starts to become profficient at flying the aircraft!

"Problem is how else are some of these folks going to get time.."
Easy - the way the rest of us did - work their way up the ladder.

Furthermore, the fact that the operation is essentially a training outfit puts substantially more pressure on the captain, especially in IMC and when thinks go pear shaped. Is this in the interest of the passenger?

I am sure we would all be interested to hear from anyone that has participated in this scheme. I heard a rumour that one of the Metros had been sent up to Gabon on a contract but that it barely flew up there.

What next? Medical students paying to work in hospitals, engineers forking out to gain work experience, teachers buying teaching experience. It just doesn't happen does it? Virtually every other industry operates on the principal of best person for the job (well - maybe not is SA!) Would you be happy in the knowledge that the surgeon operating on you was in his position due to fact that he had a rich daddy? I think not. Why should aviation be any different, especially when the stakes are so high.

[Stephen Stark]

Wheels up

Interesting points that you bring up, some of which I stronly agree to. However, consider that some of the country's scheduled airlines, according to rumour, would give a 200hr pilot a job if they paid for their rating - I have even heard that some of the no frills airlines in the US and the UK do it too. So if they do that in a large aircraft, and they think they have their training down to a tee, why not in a Metro? Just a thought, not a counterargument.

S

[wheels up]

Stephen, point taken. However, the budget airlines that take on low time pilots in Europe subject their recruits to very comprehensive training before putting them on line.

Furthermore, on completion of their line training these pilots go on to become salaried employees of the airline, and with experience comes competence. Lets face it, on any new type you are likely to be behind the drag curve for the first couple of hundred hours. However, if you already have experience of operating in an IFR enviroment, exposure to weather, ATC etc. etc. the chips are stacked in your favour.

Furthermore, the opportunities for time building in Europe are not as extensive as they are in Africa for instance and low time pilots are taken on as a matter of neccesity, not of choice. Many airlines also like to take on low timers since they can 'mold' them to their own requirements.

Nationwide had a scheme a short while back where some P2s paid for their ratings. I believe this scheme has been stopped since some of the guys weren't hacking it and it caused animosity within the company. Then again, the others did just fine - but they were not 200hr pilots.

However, we are not arguing about paying for ratings here, we are talking about paying to occupy the RHS on a revenue earning flight - the more hours you occupy that seat, the more you pay.

My argument is that this practice is exploitive, compromises safety, destroys the hierachial structure on which this industry is based and degrades the professional status of professional pilots everywhere.

Nuff said.

[Maun Baboon]

:) I agree with all swingdog has said, i also had the joy of being bent over the bench, this shoudnt happen to guys that work so hard, to be nailed just cause they want to fly, we all become pilots because we love it and this often makes low time pilots vulnerable, stuff these guys that work on that edge.

[swingdog]

Wheels up has hit the nail on the head!!!This is not about paying for your rating.What it is about is:

1) Having to pay up front for a rating that never arises.
2) Advertising in Airnews to essentialy prey on unsuspecting low time overseas pilots.( I hope many south african low time pilots have already learnt about the doggy reputation of this guy).AIRNEWS in my book is only half of the rotten apple.
3) Total disregard by the South African CAA to fully investigate white collar crime.On top of it all to let him open up a company knowing full well what he is up too...

The way i see it is that, with the total incompetance of the SA CAA combined with the fact that he will defraud again,the reputation of training establishments in south africa will continue to decline.If the kenya crash ( can any one confirm this?)was operating on this system,some serious questions have to be raised as to why they are allowed by the sa caa to continue to run these operations.

We all have to start somewhere.How we learn is sometimes the luck of the draw!!!Think very hard about two things before you join this as stephen stark puts it " a really exellent training package"

1) Anything that sounds too good to be true is just that!!!
2) I always meet nasty con men all the time,don't you?

I see to the detrement of south african avation he has put another advert in the june issue of airnews!!!!!

[Stephen Stark]

swingdog -

Can you please give more details about how you got burned? I would be interested to know how it is that this all came about (not in any sadistic manner naturally).

[SWARTBOKS]

Fellow aviators



What a touchy subject. Looks like you all have one thing in comon here: the Krokadil a.k.a. JP Olivier. Do not be fooled, this guy has got one big talent and that is, he manipulates people very easily. Some facts about this SkyVest as given by MR LONGDROP are incorrect. The facts are as following, quoting his letter 30 May 2004 at 06:59.



Point Nr 3: 2 day theory course and 5day technical. It takes 2 weeks at least. Puntuality does not exist in this mans vocabulary, he is always late for his own appointments.



Point Nr 5: the joke of the month. Accomodation is provided. I have not heard such a big lie in years. Its just to fool every one.



Point nr 6: Duration. What a load of crap. Cadets who paid for their 200hrs only have 80hrs and took them 6 months from payment to gain the hours and they barely fly. You can hope to get into the aircraft 3 months after payment and take double the time to finish your hours. The sad thing is that these cadets are too scared to stand up to this man because there is no provision for a refund in his “agreements”. So they are only klinging to the hope of getting their hours.There is currently over 10 Cadets and there is only work for half of that. The problem is also, if you dare to challenge him, he will run you flat and make you understand that he is doing you a favour, as there is no work in the industry.



Point nr7: What bull #@*&. Skyvest do not pay them any SNT. No transport is provide and you have to, with your own transport, do his filthy jobs for him.



Point nr 10. Payment and now I am going to weld some iron, this is how furios I am. You can kiss your money goodbye. No proof of payment is given and most of the cadets do not even have a contract.



And then in the end with great thanks Johan Olivier. I am not going to comment further.



I am not finished yet.



How can our CAA support him as a DE. He is dragging the SA aviations industry’s name through the mud. But as they say the wheel turns and he WILL be punished for his sins and it is not far off. I will not be surprised if he is looking in on this page and is chatting under the name of Long Drop. Remember he is a clever boy. He only has to remember “He can fool some of us some time, but not all of us all of the time.”



I hope that the SA flying industry will boicot this project of Skyvest. It is a good idea but it is run by the wrong person. Any one who wants to challenge me, please do so, or just reply on this page. I will also copy it to this page. My e-mail [email protected].



Regards to all the aviators

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Longdrop]

SWARTBOKS and some others presume, because I posted material I was e-mailed by a friend, that I am associated……….I am not. I felt that as I had the information, which could be very out of date, that people reading PPRUNE may like to have a little more insight to the original post. I don’t condone or for that matter discourage anyone from exploring the option as I have no experience with or met anyone on it. I can easily find out more about the offer and talk to the pilots, but it seems that many people use this site to flame rather than to enlighten.

OMG what if I had something positive to say, I would be labeled as J.O or even worse his mother.
:sad:

[wheels up]

Hate to say "I told you so" but what the heck

I told you so!

Looks like the metros were sold off without any of the "lucrative contracts" every having transpired. Only thing lucrative here was the big pile of cash that JO recieved from the pay as you wannabees.

Anyone out there get burned?

[dynamite dean]

I wondered when someone was going to mention this set up.
Well South Africa rules the waves when it comes to advertising a type specific service and not delivering it for one reason or another I say again words twice never ever ever pay up front for anything less than an outfit which is nationally recognised and preferably internationally regonised. I have sympathy for the author of the post. What is it again 12500rand for 200hr on a metro 195k for 400 and a ridiculous 295k (I know there are various extra's in that accomadation and return flights etc..) but really metro its old (it's nice) but old, dated and and you probably could pick one up second hand for those prices! (:E )

Perhaps in his fraternity he is reputed , granted I just wish pilots would stick to what they know. And let me take a guess he is 747 training captain and that 'seems' to count for alot of credibility doesn't it?

I have mixed feelings on this post I guess if 10 guys are happy and one gets jammed then it is still okay?

I love that Skyvest ad were it advertised a certain a/c and when I enquired sorry it's not available so why advertise it then or maybe I am old fashioned like that - Just as you wouldn't buy a can of beans an open it to find tuna fish and then take it back to the shop, so to you wouldn't advertise a serice and not deliver or what? Anyhow goodluck in pursuing your venture becareful that the lawyers don't get greedy too!:}

[B Sousa]

In this entire thread some have failed to mention one thing. Please fill in the blanks... Companies are sometimes OK, its the folks who have thier hand in the cash drawer that we need to know about.

Who is "this Guy"?............................................

[Vlamgat]

Gentleman, you have lost the thread here, Ratings, Low hour co-pilots and people paying their last little bit of cash in order to sit in the right seat will continue to flourish, it does show that the individuals are really into their flying and that they would do anything to get there!!

However, this thread is about people ripping young unsuspecting people of and making false promises for their own financial gain, whether they are nice people or not. This is unacceptable and these individuals should be rooted Out!!

I paddled down the Oily River too about 13years ago, I saved up for a round South Africa Coastline trip, only to find upon arrival that the Pigs jad impounded My aerie and all my money was gone, people had paid their PPL's upfront and we all lost a lot of money. You dont know what it feels like to live like lake-scum in order to further your career, just to have your money stolen!!

Yes gentleman stolen!! So all I can say If you are foolish enough to go down the Oily river you do so at your own peril!

Be Warned:{ :ouch:

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!

[snitch]

guys the burning continues with this dude that pretends to help
low hour pilots.
apparently the plot now is to have somwhere from 15 to 20 cadets
on the program.
which is fine, but the guys only fly three to four times a month.
thats only fifteen to twenty hours a month if you in the guys good books or if you bitch like a old lady with wet panties.

so you pay 200k up front hope to finish in ten months and eventually end up cutting your losses and quiting because it takes one year to fly 200hr if your lucky.

a agree with swingdog. watch out guys, do your homework...

[jbayfan]

See the latest post regarding the same person but now operating as Sky Haul. Click here (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=176227)

[blood brother]

It’s ironic that a name that stinks so, Longdrop, is supporting this joke! Swingdog you da man for bringing this ‘crime’ into the open, for what seems to be a one sided discussion. Nobody can defend this policy or the man. Don’t say some pilots will do anything to fly. Bull. What about the guy who wants it bad but can’t pay. Is he less keen?? Stop these inherently richer pilots getting into jobs ahead of others. Walk the walk buddy. I think people like Airlink Express SAA ComAir, not Nationwide, as they practice a similar thing, the sponsor VB’s race day fund, but that is another story can stop this. If these individuals who are to privileged to walk the normal route, walk into an interview why give them jobs, are these the hard working people companies want? No! So Don’t hire them.
That will put a stop to these dodgy DE’s that our CAA seem to support. But then again, I suppose as long as he doesn’t put JetA1 into the propeller A/C he’s using, he will be safe as far as the CAA is concerned! :ok:

[SebasW]

Check the thread:

" J O's R330,000 cadet scheme "

in African Aviation.

Same guy... Burnt me as well about a year ago. I think enough has been said about JO.

[oompilot]

Blood brother, aviation needs more who think like you. Nice one. Its time pilots had more balls.

[SebasW]

Bloodbrother,

First of all let me say I fully agree with what you said and now I believe in that 100 %.

But... I have already said this in the other thread, but you cannot blame the pilots who go for this scheme.

Before you start swearing at me hear me out. :D

It if fact that almost no airline will even look at you if you have got this "scheme" on your CV and the person who is running it knows this fact very well, yet when you go for the interview for this scheme, you are promised the world...

For an inexperienced pilot it seems like a dream come true when you are told that once you have completed this scheme you will be ready to walk into an airline, and that is what they tell you.

I now know that that is utter bullsh!t, but you don't know that when you start out, before you have really gotten to know the industry.

I feel that it is the responsibility of more experienced pilots to look out for their own, yet this person, who is a highly experienced and well known pilot in the industry bites out the insecurities and dreams of new aspiring pilots and that is just plain wrong.

Like I said, it is definitely unfair for some to do this cadet scheme and then get a job, but the truth is they probably won't get a job.

Quite frankly, it's disgusting how people like this is corrupting the aviation industry!!!

I think we should Carte Blanch on this. Old Ruda will have a field day with this oak!
:E

[oompilot]

I agree SebasW. As has been said in many of these discussions, why then does the CAA, who moderates, or governs this industry, not, as has also been said before, in the name of safety, root out these unsafe leaches, who are plunging an already troubled industry further down the inevitable drain of disaster? Any CAA representatives like to comment? Surely if this is known and the CAA do nothing about it and heaven forbid people lose their lives flying in an a/c with this crew they can be held accountable for not upholding safety standards?

[suedeceasar]

My friends as having recent personal experience with ou Krokodil I can say that most of the cadettes stories are pretty much the same.

Some guys have alot of money to pay for this scheme and mostly the guys with low hours and no hard feelings because any one of us would do anything in our power to further our careers (and if you dont use all the resources you possibly can, either sex nationality or contacts thats your own stupidity). Aviation is already a difficult industry to make a living in.

On the other end is high-ish time pilots trying to obtain the correct hours for airline entry requirements, as you should know the goal posts keep shifting.

These guys are contacted for money earning jobs and try to make a living as we all do but get severley screwed over.

Try not bash the guys who try to help to help themselves in whatever way they can.
BUT if anyone needs to talk to some one who has been through the process AND has been screwed over or a reference to all the going ons of the SKY- companies I would be happy to oblige..............It will be the truth but not a pleasant that at that

[Staalburger]

The individual being discussed definately has no scruples about what he keeps himself busy with.Not long after passing my Comm.test i was desperately looking for work and I somehow came across him and asked him if he has any work for me,the reply was rather unexpected."if you are willing to do some dodgy work then let me know".
Needless to say I did not phone him back,seems like nothing has changed.

[wheels up]

Not the sort of words you expect to hear from a designated examiner.

Do the industry a favour and do not support this guy in any way - plenty of other DE s out there.