Jetstars First Day- Any Feedback???

[blind freddy]

I'd love to hear how then first day went??
Anyone working for Jetstar, or flying with them.
Did it all go according to plan?
:ok:

[ditzyboy]

All I have heard so far is that customers do not like the non-slimline on the 8 ex-Impulse aircraft. Those seats aren't designed for high-density and have a huge recline - NOT popular with 30" pitch.

I have experienced the slimline seating on the ex-TWA 717s in the 125 config and it is EXACTLY the same as sitting down the back on a QF 737. The seats are much more comfy. Apparently the seats for the A320 are even better.

Was very sad to work the last day of QFLink ops. The end to yet another era of our company.

[Capn Bloggs]

Very sad indeed Ditzy Boy. Don't forget the others who were quashed in the process who had to move on involuntarily, and not to bigger and better things like you have. I'm not having a go: you were in the right place at the right time. Good luck to you. Just don't be full of too much self-pity. There are others who arguably as good as, if not better than you, and who are now worse off.

[ditzyboy]

What the?!

All I was saying was that a chapter has ended. It is ALWAYS a shame when a door closes. In any area of your life. I am not full of self pity. Just reflecting on an area of my career which has ended.

And I am sure there are people better than me. In fact I am positive. :)

I don't understand where you got the message I think I am better than anyone. Actually I have taken offense. I have no self pity at all. I was just commenting on the end of an era and a new one begining. I think you looked too far into it. :confused:

[Duff Man]

Nice move to replicate QF's FNCs.

501/501.... 502/502... 503/503... all on same routes around the same time.... no wonder ATC got at least one jet today to go back to rego Callsign.

[captain_josh18]

hey ditzyboy

where you based?

and is ur name Matt?

[Mr Seatback 2]

Interesting turn of perception...

1 month ago, and up until a few days ago in fact, these 717's were operating regular QF Link services. Not one person (of the many hundreds that have travelled with me) complained about the seat pitch...because they didn't know any better.

Now, two days into Jetstar, all we're hearing about is the seat pitch and how people are so surprised about it!

PEOPLE - it's been like this for the past two months approximately! Where was all this surprise while we were operating as QFLink?

Amazing how hype and media can conspire to make nothing into something!?

And to answer your question Captain Josh, Ditzy's name is not Matt. Keep guessing! :D

[captain_josh18]

aww!

well let me know when ya fgonna fly into MEL and ill make a point in going to the gate lounge!

we seem to mingle alot with the cabin crew.!!

I agree with ya Seatback!

[lame]

Just had a piece on our TV news here tonight, Jetstar are sticking to their threats, but have upset at least one couple already.

They turned up at BNE Airport today to fly to Rocky 28 minutes before departure, and were denied boarding.

NO alternate travel or refund, had to pay again to travel Virgin Blue, who they say they will stay with now.

[waav8r]

I arrived at the Jetstar counter at 5:43 this morning, after having spent 8-10 minutes in a line-up at the QANTAS counter where no signage was present to indicate that the Jetstar checkin was not co-located with QANTAS. (the signage outside can actually be interpreted that they ARE co-located, and one cannot see from the QANTAS counter down to where Jetstar proudly display their logos, due to the curvature of the departure checkin terminal at Brisbane Domestic) The real-estate guy and his wife had already been told to go elsewhere and there was an obvious smirk of satisfaction on the face of the check-in staff, that he had "caught out another customer" being 3-three minutes late for his flight. So whilst I also lost my flight to Mackay, i did get rescued by a very nice chap from QANTAS, and put up in their lounge, even though i had to re-book with Virgin in order to get to Mackay today. Sleep easy Virgin Blue ladiesandgentlemenboysandgirls. Jetstar will not be a threat to you, but will do themselves out of the market-place with this kind of attitude to customer service. Whilst i can understand the obsession with achieving on-time performance in the start-up phase, it's not going to look pretty on the balance sheets when high-yield customer drops them after having experienced the check-in staff from hell (which in this case incidentally also happen to be the Customer Service Manager on duty). And the media spokesman from Jetstar lied to the camera with a straight face, when he claimed that they had postponed the normal 30 minutes cut-off down to 20 minutes for the Rocky flight. Shame on you:*

[Buster Hyman]

You know, I was 30 seconds late for my train this morning. The barstards closed the doors in my face! Lucky for them there was another service a few minutes later and lucky for me that I bought a ticket that was transferrable to another service...in fact any service. I'll never travel Connex again...hang on....:sad:

Why is it that aviation is the only industry with strict rules that are expected to be broken and remidied at the airlines expense? Fare rules went out the window every morning at AN check-in, it's about time some airlines enforced their own rules.

Out of curiosity waav8r, were there any signs saying that Jet* was co-located at QF check in? Or was every sign saying Qantas?

[DirectAnywhere]

high-yield customer Waav8r, if you're talking about the typical LCC customer, they're far from high yield. It's all about numbers, not individual yield.

If you're talking about something else, my humble apologies.

[ditzyboy]

Whilst it is commendable that the CSAs inforced the rules (I wouldn't have the balls to turn away a pax late by 30 seconds or two minutes!) smirking at the pax is really really wrong. Like Buster said it is good to see an airline inforcing its rules.

With regards to Virgin I think they will have a hard time being all things to all people. Offerring connections, thru baggage, UMs and the full gammut of special assitance really doss mess up and operation - and of course raise costs.

I wonder if JQ could perhaps let pax without baggage check in up to -15 mins. And let people with baggage check in until then but charge a 'late' fee if they miss the 30 minute cut off. $10 per pax would be reasonable. Same with connections. If someone wants their baggage interlined give them the option to do it at $5 per bag. I reckon half of the pax would do it and half would do it themselves. As Virgin has shown with the 'Blue Zone' seating people are willing to pay for convenience and comfort.

[Watchdog]

Ditzy

What you say is smart thinking - I presume you would take that to management.

I could start up a company that did the luggage transfers etc for $ 5.00 a bag (couple of golf buggies on the ramp) and make my first million!

;)

[waav8r]

Buster
I don't diaegree with what you're saying and appreciate you gotta have rules to get the plane away on time. There was no Jetstar signs inside near the QANTAS counter but traffic signage outside said QANTAS and Jetstar. As this was the second day Jetstar was operating and equipped with the knowledge that it was a 100% owned QANTAS airline i had been booked with by my travel agent, i ASSUMED (i know - never ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME) that they were co-located. I have flown 30 plus sectors with QANTAS in the last 6 weeks, and was booked onto Jetstar by Corporate Traveller as their flight from Brizzie to Mackay was the one that fitted in best with my agenda. My point was simply that a more flexible attitude and an appreciation of the fact that the customer pays his pay check (as Geoff Dixon doesn't have enough money on his own) would have been nice. There were no other Jetstar customers near the check-in counter exept the real-estate guy and his wife, and 4-5 Jetstar staff loitering with nothing to do, so i hope you appreciate that it is possible to get a bit miffed, when there was no empathy present or any willingness to even TRY calling the gate to see if they could get me on.

[Buster Hyman]

Without having seen the signs outside, I can only assume that your assumption was reasonable. As a 100% QF entity, I would have thought the QF area would've had promotional signs like "Jet* this way". If I was in your predicament, I too would be miffed. Ditzy's idea has merit (That doesn't sound right does it!:p ) but you would still run into the "Gee I'm only 30 seconds late, surely you won't charge me $10?"

Customer service or business rules? It's a tough choice...damned if you do....:confused:

[amos2]

Well I not only agree with Jetstar turfing off these Bastards who turn up late, I would like them to go one step further and also turf off the Bastards who take 10 minutes to stow their carry on baggage while a queue a mile long forms behind them...AND THE BASTARDS KNOW IT!! :mad:

[ditzyboy]

I just finished my first JQ trip today. SYD-MCY-SYD. Would just like to say I am ASTOUNDED at the free seating. It went off without a hitch. We were close to full on both sectors and people just got on and sat down with ZERO fuss. AMAZING :ok: We had oldies and families and a group travelling together and it was all so very civilsed. I honestly thought it wouldn't work. Delighted to be proven wrong.

Funny though. The first 30 odd people all try and sit in the front four or so rows. this forms a backlog behind. These people get annoyed and realise it is because everyone is crowding the front and so move toward the back so they don't create the same problem for others. Then the next 30 odd people all walk up and down the ailse looking at the seats like they are in Freedom or Ikea. It is hilarious to watch from down the back. The pax look like they are looking at furniture! They eventually realise all the seats are the same and find one. And then the remaining pax will usually take the first seat (or two if a couple) available as they enter.

Pax all seemed quite happy with the arrangement. No one complained about the legroom. The only complaints I got were about warm drinks. Me thinks the miracle chemical ice the tried isn't very miracle at all!

As for the food we ran out of all the sandwiches and wraps and greek salads. Pringles and nachos were also a hit as were the noodles and the muffins. Just about everything sold really well.

I would have to say I was really worried about pax reaction due to what I have seen in the media. The only pax comments I got were positive and everyone seemed content with the product offering. Makes me wonder if the media only showed the bad comments. What do they gain from painting a bad picture of Jetstar? :confused:

[amos2]

Hmmm!...that's interesting Ditzy. I actually thought you were posting the bad report!

[Hugh Jarse]

Gidday Ditzy,

with the "free for all" boarding, have your procedures changed for ensuring only ABP's end up in exit rows, compared to the old style of seat allocation?

[Grog Frog]

I'm great proponent of 'leave em rather then luv em' if ther're late

But first day, come on, especially when the JETSTAR checkin is probably unknown to most.

BTW what constitutes checkin time, when you arrive in the snake like queue, or when you reach the CSO at the front.

Doesn't matter where PER, ADL, SYD sometimes it takes 30 mins to work your way through the line-up.

[captain_josh18]

hey dudez!!

I totally agree with you on the bad customer service displayed at BNE

As a JQ CSA in MEL i know that if we acted in the same manner we would have our buts kicked! I had a chick today who was 2 mins late and missed her flight. I felt reaaaaally bad for her so i quickly called th guys printing the reports to hold up while i quickly checked her in! I mean come on, 3rd day running people arent used to the policies.

Fair enough i was at the gate 25 mins laterr and really this is where i get tough with pax. You tell them to be at the gate no less than 20 mins prior to departure, cause the aircraft wont wait... 4 people never showed.. waited 5 mins, 2 F2B calls... no show, closed the flight despatched the flight... they were waiting at the gate when i walked out the door... and wondered why we didnt wait for them???

So yeah... im embarrased about the reports from BNE and hopefully you wont be put off JQ from those stupid people!

Come to MEL we are all nice down here! :):)

[ditzyboy]

Hugh -
The Overwing Assist (OWA) flight attendant is usually standing around there looking over things. The other aft flight attendant makes a hand luggage PA half way through boarding which mentions exit row restrictions. Also after boarding OWA does the exit briefing and again confirms pax suitability. I didn't observe the OWA move any people. Most people know about the rules nowadays. There is also cards on the seats explaining to pax who can and can't sit there.

It is funny. We were always moving pax from exit rows because the CSAs allocated the seats to pax who couldn't sit there. Always apologising always heartache. Now with free seating we get less 'inappropriate pax at exit row' as we control the situation. Also the clever pax who know about the extra legroom tend to be your able body types anyway.

I was just amazed at how easy it all went for both us and the pax. :ok: :ok:

[amos2]

Oh Boy!!...didn't you just love those posts from Josh and his/her mate Ditzy!?

[leftfrontside]

Well it's good to see this "new" Sh%#tbag outfit JQ is upholding the "crap" QF tradition of sh#%t service.

I'll stick with my "barb wire canoe" thanks, and if I want to fly down South (that is back in the 20th century -- courtesy Air Services Aus) I'll take DJ :} :}

In case there's any doubters re QF, check out Jetblast re best airlines travelled with. That pox riddled outfit QF doesn't rate a mention. :yuk: :yuk:

rant over :E

[Mr Seatback 2]

Not a QF Frequent Flier then leftfrontside...

Hope you and DJ form a beautiful relationship.

And amos2, as for the posts by Josh and Ditz...all true. Believe what you like.

Whatever.

[Kaptin M]

A whole 3 days into it.
Give it time.

How are the short turnaround times working out?
These are what will cause the biggest, ongoing problems, imo, and lead to less utilisation of aircraft.The other aft flight attendant makes a hand luggage PA half way through boarding which mentions exit row restrictions. I hate to say it, db but she/he may as well make the PA in Braille for all the notice it will get from boarding pax. Also after boarding OWA does the exit briefing and again confirms pax suitability. How can an F/A determine the suitability of a seated pax? You can't see deafness, for example (no offence intended.)

Are incap. pax given any recognition or priority for boarding? eg. pax with Pacemakers, or a medical condition?

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Jetstar puts latecomers on notice
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
May 28, 2004

IN its first week of operations, Jetstar waited for late passengers and even delayed one plane's departure by 18 minutes on its launch day.

But passengers are under notice: it won't happen for long and the airline is due to start tightening up its policies after it adds Victoria's Avalon Airport to its network early next week.

Passengers who turn up at the airport less than 30 minutes before a Jetstar flight on a normal day will not only miss their flights but lose non-refundable tickets.

The strict 30-minute flight closure policy is the most stringent in Australia and mirrors policies at European carriers such as Ryanair and EasyJet. It compares with a 15 minute pre-departure limit at Virgin Blue and Qantas.

"Clearly, we want people to get used to the practice and to get a feel for how it works," said Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway.

"We're closing at 30 minutes where we absolutely know we can and we're providing a little bit of leniency around check-in closure where that's required.

"On some flights, we're getting staff doing sweeps of some of the smaller airports to ensure there are no passengers lingering in a coffee shop and that sort of thing."

Mr Westaway said officials were pleased with the way the new airline was bedding down and flights were generally getting away smoothly. He said there had been no aircraft problems and the airline's unallocated seating appeared to work well.

"We're having the odd aircraft depart late here or there but operationally we're really getting into the groove now, three days in," he said.

As Jetstar moves to join battle with Virgin Blue for the hearts and minds of budget travellers, no stone is being left unturned to reduce costs and gain a competitive edge.

Even the tractors that push the planes out from the airport gate have been replaced by a new lower cost model that takes one person, instead of two, to operate.

Jetstar aims to capture a fifth of the domestic market in two years, retaining the Qantas group as the dominant player.

Tourism lobby group TTF, formerly the Tourism Task Force, said yesterday Jetstar's arrival would boost the domestic tourism industry with every additional passenger bringing on average $537 to the local economy of any destination they visit.

===========================================

[lame]

I just cannot believe this outfit. :(

QUOTE...

As Jetstar moves to join battle with Virgin Blue for the hearts and minds of budget travellers, no stone is being left unturned to reduce costs and gain a competitive edge.

ENDQUOTE...

While obviously they will HAVE to keep costs down to maintain these cheap airfares, from people I have spoken to in the last few days, they are NOT winning the hearts and minds of anyone. :(

You will NOT win over the average Joe Public by leaving people behind and refusing them a refund, or by having lower safety standards (although legal) than the other Airlines. :{

[Watchdog]

lame,


or by having lower safety standards (although legal) than the other Airlines

In what way ?

In your response please refer to several other airlines in OZ to maintain your credibility

:confused:

[lame]

Watchdog,

Whoever the Hell you are, with 2 posts, what on Earth gives you the right to specify the criteria for MY credibility. :mad:

IF comparing Jetstar to other similar Australian operators, there is only Qantas and Virgin Blue, so how can I can I refer to several others? :confused:

Jetstar PURELY to save costs are refusing to use the normal practice of having qualified LAMEs carry out preflight inspections, and although this IS legal, because of the desperate manufacturers trying to sell new aircraft and a weak CASA backing them up, it is NOT as safe as the system we have had for over 50 years. :(

As I pointed out, the general public even understand this, and VB tried it but were caught out by CASA and had to stop it.

Lame.

[Kaptin M]

If SAFETY of the JetStar operation is going to be raised, I'd like someone working with them to answer a couple of Q's I raised in my earlier post, namely:
ditzyboy stated,Also after boarding OWA does the exit briefing and again confirms pax suitability.My questions are,
How can an F/A determine the suitability of a seated pax?
You can't see deafness, for example (no offence intended.)

Are incapacitated pax given any recognition or priority for boarding? eg. pax with Pacemakers, or a medical condition?

[ditzyboy]

Kaptain M -
We have always assesed the suitability of exit row pax. Even when the CSAs were allocating the seats. We ask the pax to read the card and ask them if they have any questions. You can soon tell if someone does not speak English, for example. Sometimes their friends will try to hide it but you just ask them directly. If they can't respond you move them. Someone who is deaf will know they must be able to HEAR cabin crew instructions as they said they have read the briefing card (the SAME as used by QF). I quite often have pax (before and after free seating) volunteer they are unsuitable to sit at exits.

If someone is hiding an ailment or disability it is our job (although not always nice) to ask them. For example "Are you more than six months pregnant?" "Do you have a prosthetic limb?" "Can you hear what I am saying?" "Do you understand English?" "Are you able to fasten you seatbelt?" We always do it discreetly and it is part of our job. Cabin crew at all airlines do this every day. If pax choose to hide or lie about their disability then they are breaking CASA regulations and it is on their back. I am a flight attendant - not a doctor or a psychic. I cannot make any judgement regarding someone's condition apart from what they tell me and what is required under CASA regulation.

So are you saying that the CSAs at QF can assess pax suitability for exit row seats better than cabin crew onboard? Like I said we have always been responsibile for moving pax who cannot sit there. Not just since free seating. Having free seating makes it nicer as we no longer have to apologise for the CSAs 'oversight'. (Not blaming CSAs - they always had enough to worry about!)

To answer your other question. ANY pax who think they may need extra time with boarding is invited to board two minutes prior to other customers. They just need to be at the gate at -17 mins.

As to the short turn arounds... I have not heard of any major problems. The caterers seem to have a hard time with the 3 minutes they get to do everything. Half our turn arounds are longer than 25 minutes in the current schedule. I think it is just until we get used to it all.

**Just to reiterate. Your issues with JQ exit row pax and FAs assessing suitability are common to almost EVERY airline throughout the world - not just JQ**

[apache]

(I wouldn't have the balls to turn away a pax late by 30 seconds or two minutes!)

So... at what stage DO you turn them away ? 2 minutes and 10 seconds ? Maybe 3 minutes? well three minutes isn't much later than 2 minutes... let's make it 5 minutes. Hang on... now we have reduced our check in time once, let's make it a rule!

Then... mr and mrs Alwaysrunlate turn up two minutes late for the REVISED check in cut off of 25 minutes.... so, do you have the balls to turn them away this time ?

Sorry folks, there HAS to be a line in the sand somewhere. I appluade JetStar for their stand!

I wonder if JQ could perhaps let pax without baggage check in up to -15 mins. And let people with baggage check in until then but charge a 'late' fee if they miss the 30 minute cut off.

Unfortunately, I think that this is a DANGEROUS policy. People running late then just re-classify their baggage as "Hand Baggage". I mean, honestly... have you ever stopped and had a look at the AMOUNT of hand baggage people take on board nowadays ? It is ridiculous. A policy like that is carte-blanche approval to take as much as you can carry onto the aircraft!

[Three Bars]

My theory is that buying an airline ticket somehow changes people fundamentally.

Suddnely they become unable to read a watch, organise themselves, read airbridge/gate numbers or hear PA boarding calls. When they get on board they often become unable to control their behaviour, their temper or their level of sobriety. What's more, nothing is their fault! The car broke down, the clothes got back late form the dry cleaners - IT WASN'T MY FAULT!We really do live in an era of lack of any personal responsibility.

I think that it will take a while for people in Australia to get used to this basic premise in LCC - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! On an airline that has no seat allocation, you would think that people could organise themselves to be there on time - maybe even a little early? And if the ticket is not refundable, then this is why it was cheap in the first place!!

Or maybe I should be flying freight that doesn't answer back

:}

[lame]

Kaptin M,

As I am sure you realise ;) my safety concerns are about the lack of preflight checks by LAMEs at Jetstar.

IF there is a problem with emergency exits, in their defence, it is not only at Jetstar. :(

Some years back I used to fly up and back to CNS every week with AN Australian Airline as a full fare pax, and in those days as a frequent flyer member you could book an exact seat, so I used to always book an emergency row aisle seat.

To my amazement one day, as I was seated in one of these seats, one of the F/As asked me to move for a minute so as a guy with a broken leg in plaster could to the window seat. :uhoh:

I pointed out that while I had the utmost sympathy for him, how was I and many others meant to escape passed him in an emergency, to which she replied that she hadn't even thought of that. :rolleyes:

On the same flight one day (different day) with the A320 running late from MEL, they boarded the flight very soon after arrival to try to pick up time.

I was seated in my normal seat looking out the window at all the activity, when one of the F/As told me to put my seat belt on BECAUSE the seat belt light was on. I pointed out that this was illegal and I would NOT, however I was PERFECTLY HAPPY to wait in the aerobridge until the refuelling was finished.

She said we will see about this, and stormed off to the cockpit.

Next thing the Pilot is on the PA announcing that all pax should remain seated but NOT fasten their seat belts until advised. :uhoh:

And NO she never did apologise. ;)

[Buster Hyman]

amos2...you're a naughty boy!;) Josh & Ditzy are in the throws of enthusiasm & positive "new job" spirit. Let them enjoy the ride for as long as they can.:ok:

[Kaptin M]

Thanks for your rapid response, ditzyboy.So are you saying that the CSAs at QF can assess pax suitability for exit row seats better than cabin crew onboard? It's not only QF CSA's - I really do wonder sometimes if some CSA's have given any consideration to some of the pax one sometimes sees seated at the Emergency row exits!

Unfortunately for the airlines, most tardy pax are aware that if they have checked-in baggage, the airline must either delay the flight and offload the bag(s) or page the passenger (and delay departure).

The best solution in maintaining an on-time departure, was a system I experienced in Istanbul several years ago.
After passing through the boarding gate, pax then walked past and identified their check-in baggage, which was immediately removed and loaded onto the aircraft.
Not only did this mean that any pax with check-in, who hadn't shown by boarding time was left behind along with his bags, but from the security aspect any non-accounted for bags were also isolated.

Edit: You have just raised an issue that I have been meaning to air :D for some time, lame, but keep forgetting. I have noticed, when flying on QANTAS, after the seat belt sign is switched off the F/A will make an announcement along the lines of, "The captain has turned off the seat belt sign, however it is a requirement that while you are seated you have the seat belt fastened"
Really? A requirement of whom?
The onboard Storm Troopers, perhaps.

[Three Bars]

Kaptin M,

It is a company requirement that we mention the seatbelts in PAs to the passengers.

This is in the hope that, after being hit with this message several times, the passengers will actually wear their seatbelts while seated. How many times have you heard of passengers being injured in unforecast turbulence? How many of these people have probably not been wearing their seatbelts while seated? How many of these people would then blame the airline for not being adequately briefed - see my other post above.

Surely you are not suggesting that this REQUIREMENT is just preempted by the cabin crew (storm troopers) in a fit of pique aimed at discomforting the passengers?

:ooh: :confused:

[ditzyboy]

Buster -
Not a new job for me. Just another uniform to add to the collection! I reckon Impulse FAs must be 'up there' in the number of uniforms one can wear in 3.5 years! My 'enthusiasm' is really just astonishment that it all works so well - free seating and what not. Like many of my colleagues I was somewhat apprehensive to say the least. Just goes to show maybe sometimes management do know what they are doing... :hmm: ;)

Speaking of which. Does anyone know the ins and outs of the remote control pushback things that attach the the LH main gear? Whilst they may be technologically advanced they drive like a shopping trolley! I have fallen victim to them whilst doing the demo. Head butting the lockers and falling onto pax is never glamourous! Or is it just the operator (ground staff or engineer or tech crew???) getting used to it? :confused:

[Dehavillanddriver]

the driving is done by the Captain.

The powerpush unit attaches to the gear and simply pushes the aeroplane. The pilot steers in accordance with instructions issued by the ground person on the headset - they have not fitted the optional reversing mirrors and the "beep beep" thingie as far as I know!

the engineers tell me that they are gentler on the aeroplane than tugs.

[Kaptin M]

To the best of my knowledge, 3 Bars, there is no legal jurisdiction requiring the airline`s customers to have their seat belts fastened whilst seated, additionally QANTAS don`t advise their customers that this is a REQUIREMENT.How many times have you heard of passengers being injured in unforecast turbulence? How many of these people have probably not been wearing their seatbelts while seated?The people usually injured in these encounters are the F/A`s and pax who are NOT seated, but rather standing, or moving around the cabin.Surely you are not suggesting that this REQUIREMENT is just preempted by the cabin crew (storm troopers) in a fit of pique aimed at discomforting the passengers?1). It is NOT a "requirement", and
2). It comes across as unnecessary, control-freak , type behaviour.

[Lurk R]

Ditzy - here is a link to the new pushback tractor:

http://www.schopf-gse.com/productrange/prppinhalt.html

[On eyre]

Simple really

Seat belt sign on - must remain in seat with belt fastened.

Seat belt sign off - may move around cabin but if seated recommend seat belt be fastened.

What's the fuss.

[commander adama]

Try asking your Tech Crew Ditzy. That's what they are there for.

[ditzyboy]

Kaptain -

... additionally Qantas don't advise customers this is a REQUIREMENT.

Actually I would have to disagree.

*It is mentioned in the demonstration video
"Having your seatbelt done up low and tight is absolutely essential during takeoff, landing and turbulence. It is a Qantas requirement you keep it on at other times."

*The manual demo
"Keeping it on is a requirement to prevent injury if we encounter turbulence."

*It is mentioned in the After Take Off PA
"The seatbelt sign has now been switched off, however for your safety throughout the flight, you are required to keep your seatbelt fastened whenever you are seated."

*The inflight magazine
"Seatbelts must be fastened during takeoff, landing and when you are seated in case your aircraft encounters turbulence."

Next you'll be telling us a 737-300 has more than six exits! *ducks for cover* Sorry just being cheeky! :p

As cabin crew I will only enforce this rule if;
- we are in light turbulance and the seat belt sign is still off. Even then I just suggest it - I don't force people.
- I have UMs I make them keep their seatbelt on when seated.

I am not aware of any cabin crew who enforce this rule unless the seatbelt sign is on.

[leftfrontside]

Among others things LAME when refueling with pax onboard apart from having sear belts undone it is also a requirement that the F/A's remain in the vicinity of the emergency exits AND that the "dolly birds" arn't in the John rearranging their corsets. :hmm:

[lame]

True.

Also several other parts of CAO 20.9 they broke that day. :(

To try to expedite the departure they had removed the rear (mobile) stairs and only had the aerobridge. This is also a breach of regulations as the remaining doors were not armed. :(

Also with a full load as it was that day, they should have had a fire tender standing by at the aircraft. :(

As long as Airlines worry about only being on time and saving money, instead of following regulations, these things will happen. :mad:

[Animalclub]

Be careful ditzy with throw away lines (I've done it!!) but it DOES have more than six exits, but not all for passengers.

[SydGirl]

lame you are exactly right about the incident you described. It is quite clear that the correct procedures were not followed.

Did you utilise your CRM skills and manage upwards to alert the crew to the problem at hand?

Yes, my tongue is firmly in cheek.
SG
:E

PS. How do you know the doors were not armed?

[The Enema Bandit]

lame just doesn't like Jetstar.

[lame]

IF you read the posts, assuming you can read, you will see I was actually defending Jetstar about the cabin seating. :rolleyes:

It was Ansett that the seating/refuelling problems were on. ;)

It is true that I have no time for Jetstar at present, because of the way they are treating their pax, and grave safety concerns I have about them for not using LAMEs for preflights. :(

[commander adama]

I commend Jetstar for no longer accepting the crap excuses for people turning up to flights late. It would great if Qantas and VB follow suit. HOw many times. Come on everyone. How many times have you been delayed and had to off load bags for people not turning up to flights even after check in. Great to see they have the balls to do it. IT is not a friggin bus service. These a/c are worth 10's of millions of dollars. The Oz public should be rapped they are not flying around in 727's or DC8's. If Jetstar can squeeze extra sectors by not delaying flights good luck to them. I believe however Jetstar should give the option to pax and charge a flight time change fee for those who miss the flight. When you pay less than $100 come on i mean at least you can turn up on time. You know the terns and conditions.

Australia must wake up move forward with the times. It's the bloody 21st century. Who knows Australia might even have the balls and pride to become a republic. BUt I doubt it at least not this century.

[captain_josh18]

lame....

grab a life! :)

go complain to someone who actually gives a :mad:

:)

[Dehavillanddriver]

Anyone got any clues as to why they have changed the rules about having boarding equipment in place etc when refuelling?

nowdays you can refuel with pax on board if you have a ladder and a stepstool to get off the aeroplane...

I notice that the last amendment to 20.9 was 02, but the rules about boarding equipment were gone well before that.

[Watchdog]

lame,

arc up a bit did we? :{

from your post:
You will NOT win over the average Joe Public by leaving people behind and refusing them a refund, or by having lower safety standards (although legal) than the other Airlines.
from your subsequent post:
IF comparing Jetstar to other similar Australian operators, there is only Qantas and Virgin Blue, so how can I can I refer to several others?
...well what about:
1.REX
2.SKYWEST
3.AUSTRALIAN
4.EASTERN AUSTRALIA AIRLINES
5.SUNSTATE
6.NATIONAL JET SYSTEMS
7.MA**AIR
8.AIRNORTH
9.SUNSHINE EXPRESS

(All transport category, most high capacity AOCs.)
.......or don't you consider these operators airlines? :=

My original question remains.

[lame]

I am sick of trying to explain this to people who obviously either know nothing about it, or are just so one eyed it is a waste of time. :(

And YES, I do not consider any of them to be REAL Airlines, except Australian, but they are just part of Qantas. :rolleyes:

[ditzyboy]

lame -
What is it you are concerned about? The tech crew doing the preflight inspection at ports where there is no engineering (HTI, PPP and MCY)?

They have been doing that since 2000. (Sorry if you knew that already.)

Or is there something else to your arguement / concern?

Josh -
Please remember to respect other people around here - especially those with more experience in the industry than you may have. (one week?)

[lame]

Yes, in my 41 years in the Industry, 36 years as an LAME, I have sadly seen many things missed by Pilots, some almost with disastrous consequences. :(

I am also sure that there have sadly been things that some LAMEs have missed. :(

That is why the system we have had for 41 years that I personally know of, even longer than that actually, is the ideal.

That is where BOTH one of the Pilots AND an LAME carry out independent preflight inspections. :ok:

And before someone says I am just worried about saving MY job, NOT true as I have recently retired.

I am just honestly concerned about the safety of these flights. :{

[Watchdog]

Poor lame,
now you are displaying the classic trait of "resignation", a common characteristic where a person is unable to cope with the task.
:{
I am sick of trying to explain this to people who obviously either know nothing about it, or are just so one eyed it is a waste of time.

Well, on behalf of all the others that work for "fake" airlines.....:yuk:
I thereby confirm that the statement you made is flawed....as is your credibility.:8

As I am sure all pilots do, I also agree with your opinion regarding pre-flights by both - its all about safety.
Finally, in response to your personal attack, I hold licences in AF 1,3, ENG 1,3 and on two Group 20 types but I dont work for one of your 'REAL' airlines.

[lame]

Watchdog,

PLEASE, PLEASE learn to read. :rolleyes:

I did NOT say I resigned, quit, through in the towel whatever.

I retired, after over 40 years in the Industry.

Maybe when you have been in the Industry as long, you will have something useful to say. ;)

[Z Force]

Are you lame that got banned from PPRUNE a couple of years ago by Woomera?

[lame]

Not that I am aware of, why?? :confused:

[Watchdog]

lame,
Did I say that you resigned from your job? No.
You obviously haven't been involved in any teaching/training if you don't get the drift re "resignation".
Your avoidance in the answering of my question, is noted.

So what group 20 licences did you hold - only for "real airlines" I suppose.
:}

[lame]

Watchdog,

I cannot see where you have ever asked a sensible question in your whole 6 posts. :confused:

What was it? :rolleyes:

Where did I say I was involved in teaching?

I have been in Aircraft Engineering ever since leaving College 41 years ago, 36 of those years as an LAME.

Not that it is any of your business of course :rolleyes: but I am Licenced on most Aircraft that have operated in Australia with Major Airlines, including the Fokker F27, Viscount, Electra, DC9, MD80, B727, B737, B767, A300, A310, but not the B747.

No amount of insults from you, or trying to discredit me, is going to alter the fact that Jetstar is operating less safely than the other Major Airlines. :ok:

[ditzyboy]

lame -
They have been doing it since 2000. Haven't DJ done it since introducing their NGs? Correct me if I am wrong.

Just went to the Jetsafe website. Not very convincing. Sadly I don't think the majority of the public will care with regular cheap airfares. Sign of the times.

[Watchdog]

oh so now its other Major Airlines.
how your story changes....if you are looking again for my question, put on your reading glasses ol-timer and take a look at my earlier post where i asked"

In what way ?
Otherwise, stick to the lawn bowls and playing bingo

[blueloo]

I think what you are missing is that aviation should be increasing safety, not reducing it to the minimum margins.

When an engineer does a walk around he looks at aeroplance condition from an engineering perspective - when a pilot does a walk around, he essentially looks at things in terms of "obvious" visibile damage. (Remember the pilot is not trained as an engineer, and chances are he has been given minimal instruction in what to look at for a walkaround anyway).

The next point, where would you rather your pilot be anyway? Preparing up the front for the flight, or in a time compressed rush, running around the outside and then squeezing in all the duties required up front?

I believe the Jetstar turn arounds are fairly minimal - it should take around 10 minutes for an thorough exterior inspection (of course depending on plane size).

Its all about safety - people always talk about the error model in aviation - called the swiss cheese model - now instead of making one of the barriers line up to allow an error to go through unchecked - we are removing the barrier completely!


Anyway - i am sure people have lots of opinions on this.

[lame]

Virgin Blue started doing it, but were caught out so many times, including by CASA Safety Inspectors, that they now follow Jetsafe. ;)

Jetstar are the only Major (and I use the term loosely ;) ) Airline that does NOT follow Jetsafe, and the Public are fast realising this. :ok:

[Watchdog]

Blueloo,
I totally agree - the more eyes on the ship the more chance of detection. Unfortunately, the bean counters call the shots unless they are forced by regulation....then up goes the cost = bean counters not happy.

Lame,
I call REX, SUNSTATE, EASTERN.....etc Major airlines too, sure they have turbo prop engines but they can crash just as easy as a JET.
You not acknowledging that these are airlines is an insult to all of us working for them.:mad:

[lame]

Watchdog,

As I have said on other threads that seem determined to ruin, I really do feel sorry for you if you work for Jetstar. :(

Those Airlines you quote are NOT Majors, they are Regionals or Commuters, but NOT Majors. ;)

I am NOT insulting anyone, that is just the way it is. :D

You are just stirring to try to deflect any criticism at all of Jetstar, and the FACT that they are NOT Jetsafe. :ok:

[Watchdog]

Rubbish,
REX, Sunnies, easterns all individually have more aircraft than J* and high capacity AOC's etc.

[lame]

You are truly a moron. :mad:

REX even stands for REGIONAL express.......... ;)

I am sure even their Management wouldn't consider them to be a Major. :rolleyes:

[Watchdog]

lame,
hahahaha - stuck a nerve now.

Whilst you probably cant remember, you originally stated that it was any airline in OZ, now you say MAJOR airline....accordingly your original claim is flawed.

Lame credibility = 0

Wind up complete
:D :D :D

[lame]

Yes, I think I hear your Mummy calling, it is time for your nap. ;)

[Obie]

...now, now children!

[Mr Seatback 2]

I've asked this on another thread, which seems to have been hijacked by similar ideals.

What evidence is there that Jetstar is unsafe?

With specific regard to actual incidents at Impulse, QantasLink and now Jetstar?

Opinion is not evidence.

[Kaptin M]

Torque wremches at 10 paces..

I think I can see where you're coming from, Watchdog, in your own words Unfortunately, the bean counters call the shots unless they are forced by regulation....then up goes the cost = bean counters not happy. So as long as the bean counters tell you that SAFETY is unaffordable, you're happy to go along with that.

Start off by whittling down costs by excluding LAME's from the external checks, next replace LAME's with "artisans".
Then it's decided - by the beanies - for COST sake, genuine parts are just too expensive, and that counterfeit ones work just as well for 1/5 the price...It's all about staying competitive, you know.

Quite honestly, Watchdog I sincerely hope that, with an attitude such as your's, I NEVER have to fly on an aircraft (as pax or crew) for which YOU have been responsible dispatching.

That you are arguing FOR making a system LESS SAFE is truly unbelievable!

[lame]

Well for starters, that is my opinion.

I cannot see how anyone could think otherwise.

I did not (I hope) ever say that Jetstar WAS unsafe, just that it is LESS safe than Qantas or Virgin Blue. (I am not going to say the other Majors again).

For the last 50 years or so, we have always had a system where most Aircraft of the Main Airlines have routinely at most Airports had BOTH an LAME and one of the Pilots carry out independent preflight checks.

Now this MUST be safer, okay more costly, but SAFER.

Three independent checks would be even safer, and four safer still, etc etc.

Virgin Blue tried it with no LAME, but have since reversed the decision, partly due to pressure for the ALAEA, but also they were caught out on spot checks by CASA Inspectors.

I am sure that sometimes even an LAME may miss something, and I know Pilots have sometimes as I have been involved in some such incidents, but am reluctant to post details here of course.

That is why it is SAFER, but more EXPENSIVE, to have both the Pilot and an LAME check each Aircraft.

Jetstar are currently the ONLY Main Airline that refuses to do this, ergo they are LESS safe than Qantas or Virgin Blue.

[Mr Seatback 2]

So you're looking at it from a speculative/statistical standpoint then??

Given that there are no incidents that I'm aware of within Impulse -> Jetstar that have occurred arising from the lack of a LAME, is the fear borne from what MIGHT happen?

I guess what I'm finding strange is that there is this giant wave of anti-Jetstar sentiment arising from no LAME's doing the preflight, when Impulse has been doing this with little (if any that I've noticed) for the past 4 years. Current practice that always has been the norm.

Not saying I agree with it - but just trying to understand the logic. Why is it a problem now when it hasn't been in the past?

[lame]

NO, it is a grave safety concern. :(

Using your logic, and as far as I am aware Impulse have had no emergency evacuations, why on Earth do Jetstar have flight attendants? :confused:

They are obviously NOT needed. :uhoh:

[Chuck Magutzup]

How about this gem of logic? Lame's with Jetstar are paid more than the pilots. So lets just replace the Lame's with these wonder guys! They will tell you that they are much better anyway, just ask them.

But then, maybe it will be unsafe? It they are paid so little, then surely we can't be getting a particularly good product, can we?

Fly Jetstar. But make certain that your insurance is paid up.

[Mr Seatback 2]

I wasn't arguing with the logic or the debate - just trying to understand it.

No we haven't had any evacuations, but we've had an attempted hijacking.

Like I said in my last post (to wit no one has answered yet), WHY is this is a problem NOW given that this has been occurring for the last 4 years? How do you convince the beancounters and airline management (whom I also share contempt for in varying degrees) when history at this airline is proving opposite to the argument being made?

It's like the Flight Attendants to some degree. If the FAAA permitted (or in the case of the LAME's, didn't protest) to reduction in crew numbers, and said nothing for 4 years (publicly at least), could you expect anyone to take you seriously AFTER 4 YEARS of operating with reduced crew?

Is it not futile to make this argument AFTER the practice has been run for such a long time, versus making it before the airline (ie. IMPULSE) began operating?

Like I said (again in my last post) I don't agree with what's happened to the LAME's, but it's closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Chuck Magutzup - Eastern/Sunstate Cabin Crew are paid significantly less than mainline crew; even though they operate by themselves and have to deal with everything themselves.

"It they are paid so little, then surely we can't be getting a particularly good product, can we?

Since when has the Australian public equated worker pay with quality? So long as the price is right, very little matters.

Not how I think, but realistically, do Von and Nev from Albury consider the service Mary-Jo provides on her ABX-SYD flight to be of lesser quality because of what she is paid?

[lame]

You have to look at the history of all this. ;)

When Impulse were only virtually a GA outfit with Beech 1900 aircraft etc, they operated to different criteria and although probably safe enough, it was to lower standards than the Major Airlines.

When Qantas took them over, they used these criteria to operate a LCC, and as you said have operated since then more to those criteria, like the lack of LAMEs.

However now they have grown bigger, want to be seen as a Major Airline, and particularly once they get the A320s, they should operate to the same rules and criteria as any other Major Airline. :ok:

[Phlanger]

lame,

Quote:
I really do feel sorry for you if you work for Jetstar.


Lame, I feel sorry for you!

Quote:
I cannot see where you have ever asked a sensible question in your whole 6 posts.


Quote:
Whoever the Hell you are, with 2 posts, what on Earth gives you the right to specify the criteria for MY credibility.


You obviously believe that someone’s worth is directionally proportional to how many posts they have had on PPRuNe.

You obviously are someone of great importance as you have had over 300 posts, even though many of these are simply "cut and pastes" from newspapers. Weren’t you booted off of PPRuNe a couple of years back for exactly that same thing?

lame, get a life away from your computer that is always logged on to PPRuNe. There’s a whole world out there.

:mad: :mad:

[Mr Seatback 2]

I see the point you're trying to make Lame.

Perhaps the ALAEA (is that the right spelling?) should have got up Impulse from the start - thus, preventing this issue from snowballing into what it is today?

Sure, no one could have predicted back in the 1900 days that Impulse would have turned into Jetstar - but from little acorns...

Guess it's a hard lesson learnt - and a hard fight to maintain!

[lame]

PHlanger,

Golly yet another moron. ;)

You register, and then use your first and only post to attack me, then you say that it is ME that should get a Life :rolleyes:

I suppose you are from Jetstar too. ;)

Mr Seatback 2,

Yes, that is all true sadly, it is probably too late now, unless public (passenger) pressure brings Jetstar into line. :(

Best regards,

Lame.

[Chuck Magutzup]

Don't understand why that bloke wanted to hijack that flight. If he'd realised it was an impulse / jetstar crew, he could have sat back and waited for the inevitable impact.

[ditzyboy]

lame -
I don't agree or disagree with you. But you have summed it up well.

"unless public (passenger) pressure brings Jetstar into line..."

Won't happen. Not if the fare is right. Sad but true.

[lame]

ditzyboy,

Thank you. ;)

That is all I have been doing, expressing a point of view. :D

There is ONE way that will definitely bring about the necessary changes, but none of us want to see that happen. :(

Best regards,

Lame.

[Buster Hyman]

I'm curious as to whether those that believe that LAME's are not required in this instance, also agree with the NAS? Pole's apart I know, but the principle behind it seems the same.:confused:

For the record, I feel this industry is being eroded from what it once was & should still be. No, I'm not talking about the "good old days" you, you, you young whipper snappers! A professional industry needs a professional attitude.

As the old saying goes; "Jack of all trades, Master of none!" :(

[Kaptin M]

Mr Seatback 2 asks, "Why is it a problem now when it hasn't been in the past?

I think because of the planned 25 minute turnarounds that JetStar management are saying are crucial to their obtaining increased productivity.

25 minute turnarounds, with single aisle aircraft and full pax both ways (esp. if there are incap. pax), puts great pressure on ALL staff to "hurry up".
Not least of all the pilots, who - if they are following the international anti-hijack/terrorism procedures - cannot open the cockpit door with pax onboard.

Obviously the aircraft cannot depart until ALL the necessary boxes on the FMC's have been filled in and checked by BOTH crew members,and the T/O data and W&B checked.

Therefore, there is ONE area that leaves itself open to a quick, superficial glance - opening the door of opportunity to miss damage/faults that have occurred on the previous sector. That being the EXTERNAL walk-around check.

That, I believe is lame's point.
These same short turnarounds do NOT apply to the other airlines mentioned - and even then, there have been "oversights".
JetStar is putting ALL of their (reduced) staff under a lot more pressure, simply to try to put a few more pennies into the purse.
It's "fun" for about the first month, after that he novelty wears off, and the reality sets in that you are going to be expected to work like Mad Hatters for the entire rest of your career with this system in place.

The mob I'm with tried it for about 3 years, then gave it away, as cumulative delays eventually ended up in cancelled flights and very angry pax who deserted in droves.

[DJ737]

Meanwhile you still be SHARING that drink at the bar in LST :E

Although between QF,DJ & JQ you might just be able to afford 2 between the three of you....the FO's can fend for themselves :ok:

DJ737

The Roo Rooter :ok: :E

[lame]

Woomera,

What do you mean I started it. :(

You mean by invading Poland. ;)

Glad to see you have both good taste in TV shows and a good sense of humour. :ok:

Best regards,

Lame.

Sorry to put this here but you locked the interesting thread. ;)

At least it will get this thread nearer to 100 posts and closure... :D

[Pinky the pilot]

Oi DJ737; The F/O's can fend for themselves.
Don't the poor buggers always have to do just that?:( :confused: :{

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Obie]

...strewth!...this lame who say's he ain't the lame that got canned last year is a bloody sight worse than the lame who did get canned...and I didn't think he was too bad!

The other lame that is...are you with me?

This current lame is a drongo!

PS: What's the big deal with 25 min turn arounds? We did it for years in Ansett and TAA! Sure, we would all like more but if you can't do it in 25 there's something wrong!

[lame]

Yet another new poster, who does nothing but insult people. :rolleyes:

Judging by what you say, I guess you are another Jetstar person.

One BIG difference is that Ansett and TAA were REAL Airlines, with LAMEs doing preflights, so naturally the turnrounds were easier. :rolleyes:

IF you are silly enough to try to do it all the time in 25 minutes, without Engineering assistance, then you really are an accident waiting to happen. :(

I just pray you don't take too many innocent passengers with you. :(

How is it that several of you new posters today, who all have nothing intelligent to say, even know what happened here last year or years ago? :confused:

Could it be that you are all so ashamed of Jetstar that you have to keep registering new names to hide behind. :uhoh:

[SeldomFixit]

Most work for the dole projects look much the same really. Get used to it if you are under the QF umbrella in any way, shape or form. It's not about if any more, only when.

[Raider1]

I usually enjoy logging into to pprune when I have a chance.
It is a great forum. Only pitty is that some individuals turn it into a personal slanging match.

:D

[Kaptin M]

PS: What's the big deal with 25 min turn arounds? We did it for years in Ansett and TAA! Sure, we would all like more but if you can't do it in 25 there's something wrong!No we didn't!
We did THROUGH flights (eg. BNE-ROK-MKY) with 20-25 minutes, and they were done with LAME's to cover the asses of any pilot who did a "cursory" check.

Today, I managed to pick up a job delivering Pizzas!
I have reduced the average time it normally takes the other guys to get from the Pizza Shop to the customer, from 12 minutes down to 10.
It meant exceeding the speed limit by about 10% - but hey, the cops allow a 10% error on your speedo anyway! :ok:
I also sped up for the orange (sliced the orange), and in a couple of cases might have just swallowed the cherry - but it was all legal.
The thing that REALLY gave me the balls to do it all, was knowing when to stop drinking, so that I was just under the legal allowable limit.

The Boss said that if they were gunna survive, they needed to increase the number of pizzas each of us could do in an hour.

Man, am I one hot dude now! :ok:
And the Boss has commended ME as THE one every other rider has got to aspire to be like! :D

Later on, the Boss told me that if I didn't want to put on my helmet (I ride a motorcycle) and my gloves, I could probably save the Company another minute or so.
I reckon it's worth it - you know, the chances of having a prang are like 1 in 160,000...........and I'm ALWAYS a careful driver! :ok:

[lame]

Kaptin M,

I agree with you 100%, however I fear you are wasting you time. :(

No amount of reason, or advice from experienced people, is going to get through to these people at Jetstar. :(

I guess they will have to find out the hard way. :{

Woomera, That should make 100 posts, PLEASE put this thread out of its misery, as I bleeding to Death here from all the knife wounds. ;)

Best regards to EVERYONE...............

Lame.

[Woomera]

Lame I was referring to what Basil said in the episode "The Germans".
This thread is going nowhere.
[b]Woomera (Eastern States)