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Autorotate
23rd May 2004, 00:13
This is a copy of a story that we ran and I thought I would ask for feedback from members.


Two serious accidents with several important aspects in common. Was engine failure the culprit, or was the accident pilot induced?

The Ontario PD had just released its MD500E from the department’s maintenance facility. The helicopter departed Ontario Airport on a post-maintenance flight with two crewmembers on board.

The flight on that day in late June 2002, quickly went wrong. The engine failed during climbout and crashed on Mission Blvd just south of the Airport. The pilot, seated in the left front seat, sustained critical injuries. The mechanic, seated next to the pilot, sustained serious injuries.

Less than four months later and just ten miles from the site of the Ontario accident, a San Bernardino Sheriff’s MD 600 crashed shortly after takeoff. The flight departed for an afternoon patrol mission from the Sheriff’s facility at Rialto Airport. Minutes later, an engine failure brought the aircraft down in a residential neighborhood south of the airport. As in the Ontario accident, the pilot was the more seriously injured of the two-man crew.
The wreckage of each aircraft also was similar. When I saw photographs of the two accidents aircraft side-by-side, I began to notice a pattern. Both photos indicated that the helicopters impacted the ground extremely hard, with the first point of impact on the pilot’s side. In the case of the MD 600, the right skid apparently did not even touch the ground. The photos also show that the rotors were turning quite slowly at the time of impact. Some blades on each helicopter appeared to have little, if any, damage.

Both helicopters were climbing at the time the engines quit, without any warning whatsoever. Both ships had audible and visual low-rotor-rpm warnings that would sound whenever the rotor rpm dropped by approximately five percent from normal. In the case of the 500E, the low-rotor-rpm horn and light activate at approximately 98%, with normal rpm being at 102% to 104% of N2. For the MD 600, the warning activates at approximately 95%, with normal rpm being at approximately 100%. In both cases, the audible and visual low-rotor-rpm warnings activate well before ‘low green’ rotor rpm is reached.

However, in the case of a sudden and complete engine failure, it’s not unusual that the pilots simply don’t recognize such sounds, given the shock and surprise of the event. The engines went from climb power to zero power in an instant. Both pilots were caught completely by surprise.

With the collective positioned for climb power, the reduction in rotor rpm was severe and almost instantaneous. Both pilots reacted as quickly as they could, but clearly not quickly enough. Each pilot said he bottomed the collective while pushing forward on the cyclic to gain or regain airspeed. With the pilot staying ever mindful of the possibility of total loss of power during climbout, bottoming the collective must become a reflexive response. Pitch down and cyclic forward; this is a very common, almost instinctive reaction to such an emergency in a helicopter.

Pushing the cyclic forward can be a deadly mistake at a time like this. In this case only down collective is appropriate. Pushing the cyclic forward doesn’t prevent entry into autorotation, but it does not help it, either. Prompt down collective will cause entry into autorotation regardless of cyclic input, but the resulting minimum rotor speed will be lower with forward cyclic. A positive, smooth aft movement of the cyclic is what may be required, provided that forward airspeed is significant.

Aft cyclic will definitely minimize loss of rotor rpm. But what constitutes ‘significant forward airspeed’? Those who have done a lot of height-velocity testing like Don Armstrong believe that something in the neighborhood of 45+ KIAS is a reasonable threshold. Below about 35 KIAS it would be of little help.
I don’t believe it’s accurate to say that there is a threshold below which aft cyclic may not be beneficial. As I teach at Western Helicopters, any forward airspeed is justification for starting the cyclic back immediately. This is especially true in the takeoff profile. My experience at Western Helicopters indicates that moving the cyclic back never causes a problem, even if it is not significantly effective. So do it, and do it immediately!

The rotor system is not in the autorotation mode of flight unless, and until,the airflow is passing upward through the rotor blades. During powered, forward flight, air is being pulled down through the rotor from top to bottom. Just pushing the collective down does not reverse the airflow, at least not in the critical entry into autorotation. Pushing the collective down does, of course, reduce the drag of the rotor system and thereby reduces the rate of rotor rpm decay. Aerodynamicist Ray Prouty points out that the rotor disk actually tips forward as the blades move to minimum pitch, making it even more imperative to move the cyclic aft very quickly.

All helicopter pilots should know that every helicopter rotor system has an rpm below which recovery to normal rpm cannot be attained without the help of the engine. This critical rpm is not marked on the rotor tach but is generally estimated to be around 80% rpm.

The FAA does not require that this catastrophic threshold be defined, or tested to confirm it. Aerodynamic analysis can predict it for a given set of assumptions—weight, altitude, temperature, airspeed, airfoil design—but it must clearly be below the minimum rotor speed limit (redline). Type certification testing involves in-flight demonstration of safe recovery from five percent below the minimum redline rpm, usually done at speeds in the vicinity of Vy. The 80% figure is a reasonable assumption of that catastrophic threshold rpm.

It is my opinion that the rotor systems of both of these helicopters entered this critical area from which normal (in the green range) rotor rpm could not be regained, regardless of altitude, attitude, airspeed or flight maneuvers. Before either pilot reacted, the rotor rpm was below the normal operating range. But this alone isn’At catastrophic — momentary dips below minimum redline rpm can be expected with sudden complete engine failures. But the assumption in certification is that the collective will be lowered promptly to the downstop, and that is borne out during height-velocity testing, where all heights at and above the knee involve an arbitrary delay of at least one second before lowering the collective.

Under similar circumstances, I believe very few helicopter pilots, regardless of experience or flight hours, could have reacted quickly enough to avoid having the rotor rpm drop below the green range. The combination of climb power and total surprise is potentially deadly. This is precisely the challenge to flight instructors—reducing the number of pilots who tend to ignore the risk of engine failure—by instilling good, reflexive reactions to sudden failures.

In the MD 500 series helicopters, sudden engine failure at slow airspeed and high power calls for the immediate application of aft cyclic. Sure, if you have hands on the cyclic and collective at the time the engine quits, then moving collective down to the stop should coincide with the aft cyclic movement. But to delay bringing the cyclic back until the collective is down is wrong.

I base this opinion on my observations of pilots who operate their helicopters with no hands on the collective. This is especially true for pilots flying single-pilot from the left seat, such as in the MD 500 and MD 600. In these machines, pilots routinely remove their left hand from the collective, holding it in position with their leg and/or applying friction to it, while they fly the cyclic with their left hand and use their right hand for something else, such as adjusting the radios.

Although this is certainly not an ideal situation, it’s what occurs in the real world. One hand is always on the cyclic. By all means, lower the collective as soon as you can, but meanwhile, get the cyclic moving aft to preserve as much of the rotor rpm as possible.

At Western, we teach that any autorotation entry that involves pushing the cyclic forward is an automatic failure. One of our teaching techniques involves asking a student to touch the fire extinguisher on the left-front doorpost of the 500D to see if it is vibrating too much, and then we chop the throttle. We demand that the cyclic be started back instantly, while the student gets a hand back on the collective and starts it down. To see how critical this really is, repeat this process in a helicopter with a reciprocating engine, when the rotor rpm falls much more quickly than in something powered by a free-turbine engine.


The height-velocity curve is a constant reminder of the need for airspeed, but at the time the engine quits, the airspeed indicator is the least important instrument in the cockpit. The rotor tach is the only instrument of any importance at a time like this. We must remember that we are flying a rotary-wing aircraft, and all of our wings need to have airspeed above stall in order for them to function. Pitot-tube airspeed is of no consequence whatsoever, unless and until the rotor is back in the green.

It would be wonderful if, at the onset of an engine or driveline failure, all instruments on the panel, except the rotor-tach would go blank and stay that way until the rotor-tach is back in the green. Once the rotor rpm is back in the green, the pilot can attempt to regain airspeed if needed, and if time and altitude allow.
Pushing the cyclic forward at a time like this may well increase the airspeed, but at the expense of rotor rpm. With the rotor rpm in the “never-never” range, from which recovery cannot be made, the helicopter then becomes a falling object. My theory is that, in the early stages immediately after the engine fails, the retreating blades stall quickly, if the collective is not immediately lowered.

Retreating blade stall may cause the aircraft to begin a roll to the left. This would account for the fact that the accident aircraft ended up on their left sides. The blades on the advancing side are still producing a certain amount of lift, although they too will quickly stall if the rpm continues to slow.

When the rpm falls below that catastrophic threshold and the entire rotor stalls, regardless of airspeed, the sink rate increases and response to cyclic input is lost. The pilot loses all control of the direction of the flight. With the entire rotor stalled, response to cyclic inputs is virtually non-existent. At this point the pilot is just along for the ride. Directional control is lost, and the helicopter begins rolling to the left. This explains the hard landing on the left side of each aircraft. By extension, we should expect a rightward-rolling tendency on clockwise-rotating rotor systems, such as the Eurocopter AStar.


The exact altitude of the accident helicopters at the time of engine failure is not definitively known, but estimates place them between 250 feet and 500 feet AGL. It is my belief that if the helicopters had been significantly higher above the ground when the engines quit, the crews probably would not have survived. As they descended, both helicopters were picking up speed as their rotors slowed down, and additional altitude would have made the crash forces worse than they were.

Part II on Next Post.

Part II.

The exact airspeed at the time of each engine failure is also unclear. But the height-velocity curve is not a factor in either of these accidents. The main factor is the initial cyclic input being moved forward rather than aft.
No doubt that the NTSB reports will cite engine failure as the cause of these two accidents. Clearly, it initiated an unfortunate chain of events, but the real culprit was rotor rpm. The rpm dropped to the point where recovery was impossible. At that point, the crews were simply along for the ride. Directional control was lost, and because of the very low rotor rpm, there was virtually no kinetic energy remaining in the rotor system. The final pitch pull was of little, if any, value in reducing the crash forces.

In addition, retreating blade stall caused the helicopters to roll to the left before ground contact, greatly decreasing the crashworthiness of the airframe and the effectiveness of the pilot and passenger restraint systems.
The message is this: If the engine fails in forward flight with pitch applied, start the cyclic back immediately. Get the collective down as quickly as possible, but this alone will not stop the decay of the rotor rpm, especially if the pilot is pushing the cyclic forward for any reason.

--------------------------------


Thanks for any comments and opinions.

Ned

sprocket
23rd May 2004, 03:20
Retreating blade stall may cause the aircraft to begin a roll to the left. This would account for the fact that the accident aircraft ended up on their left sides. The blades on the advancing side are still producing a certain amount of lift, although they too will quickly stall if the rpm continues to slow.

I know I'm sticking my head into a hornets nest here, but with all the discussion in Rotorheads about an "unmentionable effect" on main-rotor blade input and reactions, I would have thought retreating blade stall would tend to cause a nose up pitching as opposed to left or right side dropping. Anyone care to clarify?

RDRickster
23rd May 2004, 04:26
I don't want to arm-chair quarterback this one, but the article re-inforces my belief that aft cyclic should be applied at the same time the collective goes down. This is similar to a recent discussion, here...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131200&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I wonder how many folks train for a engine failure during the initial take-off? Even under controlled circumstances, that training can be dangerous. Here is an NTSB summary of a hard landing that occured as a result of simulating engine failure during normal take-off profile. I like the above articles reference that everything outside of RRPM is secondary...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020923X05200&key=1

paco
23rd May 2004, 05:13
Randy Bechtel specialises in engine failures on takeoff in the 407..... :) Sod the airspeed - use what you've got, even if you have to do a vertical.

Phil

The Nr Fairy
23rd May 2004, 06:06
Where I train(ed), engine failures from the climbout are done on a regular basis with experienced instructors and advanced students - it's not something I saw until I was on my CPL(H) modular course.

In an R22 they don't last long, but with rapid and simultaneous lowering of the lever, application of aft cyclic and right pedal they're survivable.

Whirlybird
23rd May 2004, 09:48
The first time I had an engine failure from the climbout demonstrated to me in the R22 was on my FI course. Come to think of it, that's was probably the first time I had an instructor with enough experience for it to be safe to demonstrate it!!!!!!!

In an R22 they don't last long, but with rapid and simultaneous lowering of the lever, application of aft cyclic and right pedal they're survivable.

Bear in mind the surprise factor here too, if it's for real. I actually found the demonstration quite an eyeopener. I don't pull the trim in the climbout any more...or do anything else; my left hand stays right on that lever. But to be totally and brutally honest, I still don't think you should place any bets on survival of an unexpected engine failure on the climbout in the R22...well, not if I'm flying it anyway.

Autorotate, brilliant post. I would agree - aft cyclic is essential to get all the RRPM you can; forward cyclic will reduce it. And RRPM is a lot more important than airspeed.

Vfrpilotpb
23rd May 2004, 10:29
All the way through my initial training despite being told about engine failure at take off being a very serious situation, it was not phyically shown to me until I asked the very experienced, yearly check FI to help me with it, he showed me, it was stunningly quick (this was in the R22), like most others I never take my hand off the lever( to twiddle radio dials or anything else) until well airborne and at least 300 ft.

Strangly my initial instructor was happy to show me the EOL from cruise, but never once at take off or just into transition, I made a point of performing the practice EOL at least once every week, this may seem to be overegging the practice routine but it worked for me, for whilst held aloft in the air by bits of moving metal you need to be totally assured that you have the correct reactions to acsend with as much control as you can have.

Vfr

PPRUNE FAN#1
23rd May 2004, 14:56
I'm a little bit puzzled by this thread. In fact, I'm quite astounded that anyone could be "surprised" by an engine failure on take-off. Blimey, aren't we supposed to be prepared for that?

Typically, most accidents happen in the take-off or landing phase of flight, and this makes logical sense. And it should tell us something. I have made, by conservative estimate, over 50,000 take-offs in my career (10,000 hours at an average of about six landings per hour). And I can say with confidence that an engine failure would never have taken me by surprise. Why not? Simply because I keep that thought in the back of my mind, even when I am flying twins. Sure, there's a lot going on in any given take-off as you manage the various tasks, but the human brain is an amazing device. It can keep track of more than one thing at a time.

And it is not as though I fly around scared like a Chihuahua all the time. It's not like I've become a nervous, shifty-eyed paranoid, predictor of doom. Far from it. It's just that I've just come to an understanding about flying. An engine WILL quit, it's not a question of "if." Okay, I accept that. No big deal.

We must not be surprised by an engine failure - ever! But most especially we must not be surprised by it on take-off. That's our job.

There is so much more to helicopter flying than can be condensed into the Basic Helicopter Handbook. Posts like the one that started this thread and the other related one about autorotation entries go a long way toward enlightening and educating pilots about these strange machines and how they work. Good show!

moosp
23rd May 2004, 16:07
Your experiences as related concur with mine. Until I did CPL level training the engine failure on take off was not mentioned. When it was taught it came as a welcome surprise.

Interestingly enough, Nr F, your instructor was the first person to teach it to me. This after about 250 hours on type.

These days I sit in the hover and do the usual checks before departure, but the one I add now is the mental rehersal of what to do in the next 30 seconds with an engine failure. Heck I've been doing that before take off for thirty years with a plank wing, why has it taken so long for me to realise that it is vital in a heli too?

Whirlybird
23rd May 2004, 17:21
moosp,

It was The Nr Fairy's instructor who taught helicopter EFATO to me too. And he also told me it was part of the PPL syllabus, that no-one should be sent solo without having been shown engine failure in every part of the circuit. Common sense tells me he's right...though I've been panicking at the mere thought of teaching it. :eek: In fact, I have no intention of doing so without more experience, and I certainly wouldn't expect every instructor to be able to. But...shouldn't all pilots be learning it, pre-PPL, pre-first solo? As PF1 says, engines can fail at any time.

Fatigue
23rd May 2004, 17:30
I teach my students from very early on that the engine will quit, and it's not going to be at 5000' 110 kts, when there is plenty of time to react. I teach them in the climbout, in high power situations, usually when we are talking or I have thier mind focused elsewhere, because thats when it is going to happen and the lowering of the collective along with aft cyclic (the amount depending on airspeed) maintaining rotor RPM is absolute paramount. At the same time I want them to learn to react instinctively, and I also want them to say to themselves before every takeoff,what they would do if the engine quits and to be prepared for it.
Hopefully this will someday save their lives........
I too, am surprised to hear that these pilots were "taken by surprise" when the donkey quit.......

the coyote
23rd May 2004, 19:42
Whirlybird

The first time I had an engine failure from the climbout demonstrated to me in the R22 was on my FI course. Come to think of it, that's was probably the first time I had an instructor with enough experience for it to be safe to demonstrate it!!!!!!!

As an aside, I am interested in what kind of experience the average instructor that taught you had then? What kind of experience do you have now that you are teaching yourself?

Just wondering.

The Nr Fairy
23rd May 2004, 20:33
Whirly, if I may answer for you.

coyote:
Mike Green has squillions of hours, a large proportion of them instructional, and a large proportion of those in the R22.

Pete Vellacot and Tom Saunderson have thousands of hours apiece, loads on R22 instructing.

I'd feel safe with any of those three showing me something new - mostly because I know I can say "I'm not happy with this" or bacause I know they'll monitor me closely.

pilotwolf
23rd May 2004, 23:38
...PPL training seems a long time ago but I too was taught that if the engine is going to stop it will ALWAYS pick the most dangerous/unexpected/surprising/inconvinent time to do so and to be ready for it.

I still fly around after several different type conversions and (only) a couple of hundred hours since the R22 with my left hand on the collective, when it's not being used to do something else...

Even been told off for driving with left hand on handbrake before! (There's a story to that one which could have been very embarrassing...)

:O

Autorotate
23rd May 2004, 23:44
So now that you guys have read the story do you think the author is onto something here, is he going down the wrong track.

I have had a lot of emails re this story, both for and against and would like to know if this is correct or not.

Thanks

Ned

RDRickster
24th May 2004, 00:50
It's not clear cut, black and white. Therefore, it is difficult to properly choose a "side," if there is one. Only the pilots in the story will know all the details... they experienced it. Environment and individual experience shouldn't be substituted with a one-size fits all approach.

However, I haven't seen anyone reply on this forum that they agree with each pilots actions (forward cylic to get airspeed). In fact, it seems that the consensus is that aft cyclic should be automatic and damb the airspeed (until RRPM is okay).

Nigel Osborn
24th May 2004, 02:06
With any single engine helicopter having an engine failure, the top priority must be to lower collective.

Then check your other parameters, height, airspeed, suitable landing spot. For example if you are cruising at 1000 ft or higher at 110 kts, why immediately reduce speed to 65 kts.( Assuming that is the recommended auto speed ) if you can not now reach a good landing area ahead of you. Maybe you will need max range speed of 90 kts with minimum rrpm to stretch your glide to reach a good field past the 200 ft trees or buildings.

After t/o you basically land straight ahead, so you don.t have so many options other than to establish auto with sufficient rrpm to cushion the landing.

Too many pilots always want to do a big flare at the bottom and then level and hopefully make a slow run on. Great over a flat area and if you are in current practice. Over hilly or forest terrain, I used to teach a vertical auto so that you could let yourelf into a hole in the jungle. To fully demonstrate this point, I used to flare at any height, 1000 ft or more, and drop vertically into wind at the wind speed which meant no ground speed. Initially of course most pilots found this tricky because it was against their ab initio training but soon realised it was a life saving technique in certain conditions. I also found more pilots who weren't in current practice did a constant speed auto better than trying to do fancy flares and low level leveling.:oh:

helmet fire
24th May 2004, 04:20
Good thread.

I believe there are some good words of wisdom in the article, and I can agree with the sentiment, but I cannot agree with the solution. As RD says above a "one size fits all" is not the best option. We have enough syllabus hours to teach the student what auto entry technique to use, when, and why.

There are some other points that I wish to raise with the article:

It seems to emphasise aft cyclic in preference to lowering the collective. This I cannot agree to except in TWO instances: the low level "pop up" where you trade altitude for airspeed/RRPM in an effort to avoid overshooting a good landing spot, OR to sacrifice airspeed in an attempt to regain badly lost RRPM. The article covers the second instance, and I fully agree here, aft cyclic MUST be applied when RRPM is not recovering, or is recovering too slowly. The simple priority I have found useful in teaching emergencies like this is:

RRPM is life fix it first - ie Maintain RRPM first,
Then maintain airspeed if possible,
only then maintain altitude if you have to.

Sacrifice altitude and airspeed in order to obey "RRPM is life"! Twins or singles.

What this translates into when relating to the article, correct take off technique is paramount. Use a gate at an appropriate height (we use 100 ft in UH-1H) to hit climb speed. Climb at best auto speed plus about 10 - 15kts, again 70 - 75 kts in the UH-1H which autos at about 60 - 65 for min RoD. Then if you suffer an engine failure you achieve several things:
1. Lower collective as per any other auto entry technique.
2. Maintain nose attitude (resist forward, apply aft ONLY if RRPM continues to degrade) with cyclic as you lower RRPM.
3. Enter normal flare auto flare and landing/cushion.
4. Change shorts.

In other words, during engine failure after take off (EFATO) in the UH-1H, you are entering the normal flare for an autorotative landing with about the right airspeed and some up the sleeve for RRPM recovery if required. Works in all types I have flown so far, but its the UH-1 where I can best remember the numbers.

What worries me about the article is that it is emphasising an aft cyclic solution to a problem that has it's root cause in take off technique (See RD's "reinforced" belief that aft cyclic is required). My opinion is that if you applied aft cyclic following an EFATO at 200 ft and 50 kts, then you will end up with the same results as the article is attempting to avoid. Thus I stress that the one solution is dangerous to pursue and therefore I do not believe that the authour is "on to anything". What about an auto at an OGE hover at 1000ft AGL?

The testing for certification is not quite explained by the article. It allows for a "reasonable" pilot reaction - not a perfect pilot, nor a terrible pilot - and it assumes that you are following published profiles such as take off techniques. thus if you are changing the radio, scratching your ar5e, a slower than normal pilot, and are a couple of knots slow for your hieght on take off, you are NOT covered by the certification!

Lastly, I take issue with the statements about the blades slowing down faster on non turbine aircraft. With all due respect Sir: bolloxs! Blades slow faster dependant upon inertia at time of failure, and drag applied (ie pitch). That is why a BK 117 blades slow down a whole lot faster that a B47 regardless of engine type!

Any discussion about this topic is good, and the article certainly stimulates that. Well done.:ok:

Autorotate
24th May 2004, 04:35
Helmet Fire - One thing I should mention is that the article was aimed more at MD500/600 series specifics, or at least thats what I was told by the author.

Hope that helps.

Ned

Jcooper
24th May 2004, 05:23
Extremely important to keep RRPM in the green above anything and everything else. The airspeed doesnt mean anything if the blades stall, the altitude doesnt mean anything (except a further fall) if the blades stall. If you keep the RRPM in the green and have zero airspeed and end up right in the middle of the HV curve you are still better off, atleast then you have control over the aircraft and even though you may be dropping like a rock and have no way to flare at the end, you still are falling slower than if your blades had stalled and in that case you still wouldnt be able to flare.

I think the routine training of 75 knots, 500' AGL auto entries is what gets us into this horrible habit. When we train we never want to trade off airspeed for RRPM because it is never really that low (not a big surprise to get a simulated failure in training) and if we do give up our airspeed we have to get it back and it makes more work. I found myself fall into the trap when at about 300 hours instruction I had a student lower the collective about halfway and roll the throttle off when we got a traffic alert during instrument training. I was bent over looking for the traffic, a little complacent, and a lot confused to be hearing the horn on an instrument flight. I lowered the collective still trying to figure out what happened and looked at the RRPM which was at about 88 percent. I just keep the collective full down and waited for the RRPM to build. It wasnt until the RRPM was at about 95 percent that I realized I could just pull back on the cyclic more and get the RRPM into the green and start looking for that traffic again. I had plenty of altitude, all ended well, but its now always on my mind to use that airspeed when you need it above all else.

As a side note, as an instructor in the R22 my hand is always on the collective on take offs and landings, no matter the student level.

Power Up
24th May 2004, 05:36
Correct me if I'm wrong - still only inexperienced PPL (PF1 - I believe this still entitles me to post, even thouh I do not earn yet as a pilot, but i think professionalism is a manner in which you act - it is not your paycheque).

But I would have thought that the actions for engine failure would be similar whatever the type - Lower collectinve for safe RRPM, and aft cyclic to induce the airflow through the rotors. If neither are done, the autorotation will not be established. Forward airspeed can be adjusted in the auto - obviously depending on height available.

Ogsplash
24th May 2004, 11:59
Um, just my two pennies worth. I've taught on low and high inertia rotor heads (Gazelles to Seahawks) with basic and advanced students. I'm kinda against 'set piece' responses and IMHO, it is all about rotor energy management. Yes lower the collective (especially in low inertia systems) but then you have to really assess where the hell you are and how you want to arrive. A zero speed high ROD is preferable say into trees whereas, a run on would be fair on a grassy field or road.

I want to stress that these were done 'prewarned'. Use to practice engine offs in the Huey from almost any height and speed and it was a great machine....sometimes the response was to just lower the collective and accept a run on and other times, there was room to lower the collective and then get into a flare. High speed low level, cyclic back and lower collective during the flare and climb to height. But we practiced and practiced and even went with other instructors who would pull the engine anywhere anytime (but because you with the other instructor, you were expecting it).

Now in the Seahawk, we practice 'wait one two' before responding to a practice OEI....interesting to see the difference in performance compares to immediate response.

So much for my waxing lyrical.

Shawn Coyle
24th May 2004, 13:48
The article is absolutely right on the money. It shows the danger of using techniques (forward cyclic automatically) that appear to have been born in the mists of time and never questioned.
The other reason for not using forward cyclic is that when you flare, rotor RPM builds because the airflow through the disk is increased. If you push forward the airflow through the disk is going the wrong way and it will decrease rotor RPM.

I'm reminded of the old piston engine airline pilot who commented that he was always surprised when he reached the top of the climb and still had all the engines operating....

Gaseous
24th May 2004, 21:30
I don't think the effect of airflow on the horizontal stabiliser has yet been mentioned.

I was taught that when the engine quits, reduced lift due to lowering the lever and low RPM causes descent and hence upward force on the rear stabiliser which causes a nose down attitude. Aft cyclic should be applied to counter this to maintain the autorotative angle of attack. Simply lowering the lever may not provide enough angle of attack if the RPM has fallen significantly. Sure, drag is reduced, but there must be an appreciable angle between the rotational airflow and the relative airflow. Pushing the cyclic forward reduces this vital difference in the two airflows.
Once the RPM is back in the green forward cyclic may be applied if there is time but that's gravy in the climb.

Forward cyclic with low rotor RPM is a recipe for disaster as this reduces the inflow angle required for autorotation.

My own experience suggests that tight turns are also effective at recovering RPM so maybe aft and sideways cyclic is indicated.

Any thoughts anyone?

Jcooper
24th May 2004, 22:13
Gaseous,

steep turns will increase RRPM but with the expense of increasing ROD. Also when you roll out of the turn the RRPM will go back to where it was on the entry to the turn.

Someone mentioned they though the article was saying that aft cyclic was more important then down collective. I dont think that was the case. He did make the point that if the engine fails while fiddling with radios or whatever it may be, dont just reach for the collective to put it full down but reach for the collective while applying aft cyclic so that the RRPM wont decay as much while you take your one sec to get the collective full down. I believe the point they were making is that aft cyclic will slow rotor decay enough that you can safely lower the collective and maintain green on the scale.

Gaseous
24th May 2004, 22:50
Jcooper
you said:

steep turns will increase RRPM but with the expense of increasing ROD. Also when you roll out of the turn the RRPM will go back to where it was on the entry to the turn.

I dont disbelieve you, and the ROD issue is beyond doubt but why should the RPM decrease as you roll out of the turn? It doesn't seem that way when I have tried it.

Also the ROD is greater with stalled rotors. We are really talking 'back to the wall' here.

I agree about lowering the collective. This is imperitive to reduce drag and loss of further RRPM. To not act immediately is not acceptable but while your hand is on the way there, get the stick back!!

helmet fire
25th May 2004, 01:03
JC; I mentioned that the article appears to favour aft cyclic firs, and that worried me for the reasons above. I used RD Rickster's reply to back up the fact that the article has given that impression.

If the article was aimed ONLY at the Hughes models, perhaps it can be titled "Hughes Auto actions - not to be used in all types!"

Shawn - I am shocked that anyone would teach forward cyclic automatically. If the purpose of the article is to destroy that myth, then it gets my full support, however, I feel that the article convolutes this message by not continually emphasising RRPM. How you recover it could involve lowering the lever, aft cyclic, or steep turns and G loading the disc. I feel the article concentrates on only one of those aspects to the detriment of the message that RRPM is the goal, not aft cyclic!

Gaseous, I agree with your stabiliser comments on some machines however, have you ever done a UH-1H or B206 with floats. Again, the one solution of cyclic moving does not suit all situations. Use the cyclic to adopt the attitude you require: range, low speed, min RoD, turning, or RRPM recovery. Dont teach an automated resopnse that is limited to only specific situations. by the way: the RRPM will not increase/reduce much (roll induced drag changes aside) due to turning. What effects the RRPM far more noticeably is the G loading. When getting into the turn, G is applied, conservatin of angular momentum works, and RRPM increases. Rolling out of the turn itself will not reduce RRPM noticeably, but unloading the G when doing so WILL result in reduced RRPM (again due to conservation of angular momentum). The disc does not know it is in a turn.

I feel the article, and the majority of the responses are trying to say the same thing in many different ways - RRPM is LIFE. Do whatever you have to do to recover the RRPM, only then will you have control to worry about the other issues like airspeed, altidude and glide/flare distance. thus, what I said above:

RRPM is life fix it first - ie Maintain RRPM first,
Then maintain airspeed if possible,
only then maintain altitude if you have to.

Sacrifice altitude and airspeed in order to obey "RRPM is life"! Twins or singles.

in order to recover RRPM, use your tools: lower the lever and load the disc!

:ok:

the coyote
25th May 2004, 06:17
I don't think the effect of airflow on the horizontal stabiliser has yet been mentioned.

I was taught that when the engine quits, reduced lift due to lowering the lever and low RPM causes descent and hence upward force on the rear stabiliser which causes a nose down attitude.



For memory, the small lip along the top of the leading edge of the B206 horizontal stabilizer was there to stall it in autorotation and reduce that tendency.

Would be interested if anyone can confirm that.

Shawn Coyle
25th May 2004, 14:04
Automatic responses to situations are, unfortunately, taught at the expense of thinking ahead and making the right decision. Often military training establishments are guilty of this because of the high number of students, and lack of control over the quality of instructors (I'm not trying to slam any particular military training establishments, but when the failure rate is less than 1% as it is in at least one very large military, you have to wonder...)

I remember talking to one instructor at an establishment that had just transitioned from the UH-1 to the Bell 206 for basic helicopter training. They were insisting that during a hovering engine failure in the Bell 206, you had to add forward cyclic because that was what you (supposedly) had to do in the UH-1. No amount of talking to them or suggesting that this was something they should try to see if they really needed it would convince them to change their way of doing things. So students would come from this course convinced that they needed to add forward cyclic in a hovering autorotation.
I think a lot of what this article was covering was an attempt to get people to think rather than just react automatically in a 'one size fits all' action.

Gaseous
25th May 2004, 20:07
The issue here is recovery from very low RRPM and it is a fact that the autorotative force (lift) on the disc is dependant on the angle of attack and velocity (rpm) squared, irrespective of helicopter type.

It is an aerodynamic fact that if you have low RRPM and forward cyclic is applied, the angle of attack is decreased, leading to less autorotative forceand more drag. If autorotative force is insufficient to overcome drag then the RRPM will decrease and the blade will stall which is what is suggested happened to the helicopters in the article.

Forward cyclic also unloads the disc which, as discussed above tends to lower RRPM. not good.

Aft cyclic is not about controlling attitue, speed or anything else at this time. It is about controlling inflow angle to give maximum autorotational force. RRPM is the only thing in life just now!

Tight turns load the disc and will cause increase in RRPM which crucially increases the efficiency of the autorotative 'engine' (remember the RPM squared bit) so conservation of angular momentum does apply but the increased autorotative force will more than offset this and on rolling out of the turn the RPM will not fall as much as expected. Agreed the disc does not know it is in a turn but it is working much better at higher RPM.

HOWEVER:

If RPM is low, increasing the inflow angle by any of these means may well cause more of the blade to stall if the critical angle is exceeded. If enough of the blade stalls, the drag goes massive and the RPM will fall further. In other words the disc will stall at a higher RRPM.

I can't find much info on recovery from very low RRPM but aerodynamically, a flare or tight turn seems not too bad an idea. If it causes blade stall you are probably really in trouble and will never know if not flaring was a better option.

better still, don't go there! :ooh:

Jcooper
25th May 2004, 20:39
The RRPM will drop back down to the point where it was before the turn. Go try 180s and you will see my point. Enter an auto, establish 65 knots and bottom of the green. Roll into the turn, hold 65 knots...the RRPM will increase the upper green (dont touch the collective). Finish the 180, roll out of the turn hold 65 knots, dont touch the collective, and watch the RRPM drop to the bottom of the green where it began.

I dont have some fancy physics explanation, but I do know observation.

Gaseous
25th May 2004, 21:42
Jcooper.

This test is good but not quite testing the scenario we are discussing.
You are starting from a steady state of equilibrium so after the turn, if you alter nothing the equilibrium is bound to return.
Your test does prove that a turn increases the autorotational force to exceed the drag. If you watch your VSI you will see the penalty is an increased rate of descent. At the end of the turn you unload the disk, the autorotational force decreases and as the drag has not changed the RPM must fall. You have wasted the energy you put into the disk by keeping the drag high. Actually you get something back in reduced rate of descent until the equilibrium returns.

The scenario to test is
1) fat dumb and happy
2) Oh ****, I've got 75%RPM, loads of pitch on and no power
3)What do I do now?

Hint - The answer is not establish a steady state at 75% and then do a turn.

A more relevant test is to establish auto at the bottom of the green. Bottom the lever and see how quickly the RPM will rise to the top of the green with and without a turn. When you roll out of the turn the RPM will not drop unless you increase the drag with collective.

Remember that the intention is to recover RPM. You are not going to have the lever anywhere but glued to the floor if you have 75% RPM!

Also the difference in autorotational force is huge between the stalling point of the rotor and the bottom of the green (Lift proportional to RPM squared) so you are not getting anywhere near testing that aspect. Nor do you want to.

Point to take is if you can get RPM up near the green by doing a turn/flare, if you have the lever down the RPM will not go down again.

Rich Lee
26th May 2004, 00:13
Shawn's reply regarding "formula" responses to emergency situations is spot on. As an experimental test pilot who has completed several certification H/V tests, hundreds of H/V validations, and thousands of autorotations with engine on and engine off in MD500/600 two and four bladed tail rotor and NOTAR series aircraft I have learned that the correct response is very much dependant on the initial conditions.

Appropriate application of cyclic is dependant on the variables forward speed, climb speed, height above the ground, and wind speed and velocity. The best general procedure in the MD500 is to maintain cyclic position until climb rate goes to zero and then decide if forward or aft cyclic is the appropriate response to the variables.

An engine failure at 3,000 Lbs GW, 50 KIAS, using 87.2 Q climb power at an altitude of 150 Ft. AGL will not turn out well if the pilot lowers the collective and uses moderate aft cyclic (which is the natural reaction of most pilots because this is the response for most autorotative entries in the 500 series helicopter).

There is a difference in extended glide with engine off or on. If in training you reduce rotor rpm to extend glide to the point that the rotor and N2 needles match, then you will get a 17 to 35 Hp push from the engine that you do not get when the engine has failed. The difference in glide can be significant at higher altitudes and long glides. Any autorotation where the main rotor speed remains above the N2 idle speed will be almost the same in practice or with the engine out.

The best method of avoiding climbout engine failure accidents is to use the take-off corridor profile in the H/V curve. Take-off profiles outside of that take-off corridor and within the avoid area, will create a situation where a hard landing will be almost unavoidable. The second practice that will improve the odds is be mentally prepared to immediately lower the collective at the first sign of a power loss. The third is to plan a route of flight that presents the most available landing area.

The circumstances of the two accidents are complex and it would be difficult if not impossible to draw comparative conclusions regarding the left side low landing attitude. Very low main rotor speed descents are difficult to characterize. Tail rotor controllability issues are often significant at main rotor speeds below the green arc and have some effect on fuselage impact angle just prior to very low rpm main rotor blade stall.

Jcooper
26th May 2004, 01:28
Sorry Gaseous, mistaken on the situation.

But if the situation is fat dumb and happy...loads of pitch/power...engine fails (specifically takeoffs), the last thing you want to do is turn, keep the skids level. Rather hit hard upright, than softly in a turn :)

Your point is taken though

DualDriver
26th May 2004, 12:21
Here's my opinion...

a cyclic FLARE increases RRPM, regardless of speed. Concider this as a situation...

You are busy manually changing frequency and the engine dies (your hand not on the collective). Leading with a cyclic flare could (or will) assist in recovering RRPM until such time that you can lower the collective.

Therefore, during an engine failure after t/o, regardless of speed, FLARE. Just maintain SOME forward speed.

Again, my humble opinion.

Gaseous
26th May 2004, 13:16
Jcooper
The idea is to roll out of the turn before you hit, however landing sites and all sorts of other variables count. On the other hand if the choice is land in a turn or with 8000 fpm ROD, NR at 0%and your aircraft and corpse spread thinly about, what is your choice then?

Autorotation is about energy management. A helicopter with a dead engine has 3 stores of energy.

1) potential energy (height)
2) kinetic energy (airspeed and to a lesser extent ROD)
3) more kinetic energy (RRPM)

The total energy in the system is more than is required to land safely, so the trick is to arrive at the ground with energy in the right place (RPM) and waste the excess (speed and height).

If RPM is low then a flare converts airspeed to RPM. A turn converts height into RPM.

A logical way to do this if RPM is low, other circumstances permitting, would be to turn high, to wind up the rotor system, converting height to RPM, without losing airspeed and save the flare for the end to counter the rate of descent.


Forward cyclic only has a place if you have RPM to spare as unloading the disc turns RPM into airspeed.

PPRUNE FAN#1
26th May 2004, 15:02
Rich Lee wrote:Shawn's reply regarding "formula" responses to emergency situations is spot on. As an experimental test pilot who has completed several certification H/V tests, hundreds of H/V validations, and thousands of autorotations with engine on and engine off in MD500/600 two and four bladed tail rotor and NOTAR series aircraft I have learned that the correct response is very much dependant on the initial conditions. (SNIP)

This is one of the best, most clear and concise posts I have ever read on PPRUNE. It ought to be required reading for every helicopter pilot.