View Full Version : Qantas Plane Only 800M From Disaster.
Plane only 800m from disaster
By Steve Barrett and Steve Creedy
22may04
A SYDNEY-BOUND Qantas flight was placed on a collision course with an Air New Zealand passenger jet by Indonesian air traffic controllers, it has been revealed.
The two aircraft, both Boeing 767-300s, took evasive action after onboard computers alerted the crews to the danger.
The planes had a total of 268 passengers and crew on board.
By the time emergency manoeuvres began, the planes were believed to have been separated vertically by less than 125m and as little as 800m horizontally.
Generally planes are meant to have at least 1000ft (305m) vertical separation and 5 nautical miles horizontal separation.
The near miss happened on March 22 in Indonesian-controlled airspace southwest of the island of Biak, off the coast of Irian Jaya during the day.
A veteran Qantas pilot told The Weekend Australian how the plane's first officer caught a glimpse of the Air New Zealand jet as it flew "over the top".
"With the momentum of the Qantas jet's climb, it took some time before it could pull out and begin descending. This happened at around 35,800 feet when he looked up and saw the other jet just above passing over them," said the pilot, who spoke on condition his name not be revealed.
"I know he was very shaken to the point that as soon as he landed at Sydney he called his wife to tell her he nearly died at work that day.
"With the combined speed of both aircraft at around 1000 knots (1852km/h) no one would have known what happened over the sea if they collided."
Air New Zealand flight 71 from Auckland to Hong Kong was cruising at 36,000ft as QF188 approached on the opposite course at 35,000ft.
The danger arose when Indonesian air traffic control cleared the Qantas plane to climb to 37,000 feet, through the Air New Zealand flight's level and into its path.
The Air New Zealand crew saw the Qantas aircraft ascending and began turning away as they received a warning that they were on a collision course.
Following the advisory, the New Zealand jet eventually climbed to 37,500 feet while the Australian crew's Traffic Collision Avoidance System told them to descend to 35,000 feet.
"Our position on it is that it was a significant event," said Captain David Morgan, Air New Zealand's chief pilot and general manager of operations, standards and safety.
"The defences, including the TCAS, held and we'd really like to know what drove the Indonesian guys to actually clear the Qantas aircraft through our altitude."
A Qantas spokesman also confirmed the incident occurred, saying "the crew responded in accordance with their training and the flight continued without further incident".
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau confirmed yesterday that Indonesian authorities were investigating the incident and the bureau expected to be informed of the result.
itchybum
22nd May 2004, 06:38
onboard computers alerted crews ...By the time emergency manoeuvres began, the planes were ... separated vertically by less than 125m and ... 800m horizontally.
If that's true then there's a serious problem with ither the crew training, their performance or the TCAS RA capability. Somehow I think it's probably not true.The Air New Zealand crew saw the Qantas aircraft ascending and began turning away as they received a warning that they were on a collision course. Interesting. I wouldn't think ANZ crews are trained to turn when a TCAS RA is received so I suppose this is "journalistic licence."he called his wife to tell her he nearly died at work that day. Sorry but....... what a sook. ;) The (two) planes had a total of 268 passengers and crew Doesn't sound too good for the share-holders of either airline.some time before it could pull out and begin descending Hahahaaa.... I love it...:E
Crack
22nd May 2004, 07:29
To the Crews,
Through out one's career there are happinings that happen to a few.
Do not be a sook as Itchybum sugests, make sure the companies give you the time to talk it through, as and when you need it.
As to why it happened , let the investigators do their thing.
Itchybum go take a dose of Vermox,you are in dire need of it mate,If nothing has ever rattled you in your career, you will never know , or understand the effects it can have on one that always thought he could cope with it all.
:ok:
itchybum
22nd May 2004, 07:44
Do not be a sook I agree, crack. ;)
Sorry "crack" I didn't realise it was you that the RA "happined" to. ;)
See this...;) ? It's called a 'wink'. Typically, it indicates a tongue-in-cheek slant to the preceeding comment.
Now 'harden up' crack, you big sook. It was only an RA. ;)
Meanwhile this event is another reminder to be on your toes if you fly through "third world" airspace and where English is not the mother tongue and technological nous does not come naturally.
A good example of why it occasionally pays to listen out to the transmissions of other aircraft in addition to those of ATC.
Also:
If the two aircraft passed each other with seperation of 125m vertically and 800m horizontally then this would've placed the NZ aircraft off to one side not "over the top".
Buster Hyman
22nd May 2004, 08:35
I know they're trying to merge these two carriers...but this is ridiculous!
Air NZ Qantas near miss investigated
TVNZ
May 22, 2004
Indonesian authorities are investigating how an air traffic control slip-up almost caused a mid-air collision between Qantas and Air New Zealand planes off the coast of Irian Jaya.
The Weekend Australian on Saturday reported details of the close call in Indonesian controlled airspace south-west of the island of Biak on March 22.
It said the two Boeing 767-300s, carrying a total of 268 passengers, were forced to take evasive action after onboard computers alerted pilots to the danger.
At one point, the planes were believed to be separated vertically by less than 125 metres, and horizontally by 800 metres.
The report said planes should be separated vertically by 305 metres and horizontally by five nautical miles.
A veteran Qantas pilot told the paper that a first officer on the Qantas plane caught a glimpse of the Air New Zealand jet as it flew overhead.
Air Transport Safety Bureau deputy director of air safety investigation Alan Stray said he was alerted by Qantas to the near-miss "within hours" of it occurring.
"It was reported to us and it's currently under investigation by the Indonesian authorities and we and the New Zealanders are each cooperating with the Indonesian authorities," Stray told AAP.
"It happened in their airspace and they have the sovereign right to investigate it under international protocols so we are cooperating with them on that."
No date had yet been set for a report from Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee, but Stray said once it was released to the bureau it would be made public.
"These things do happen from time to time but until you know the circumstances of what happened it's hard to know how serious these things were," he said.
Stray said he was not sure if passengers aboard the planes were told of the near-miss.
A Qantas spokesman told the newspaper that the plane's crew had responded in accordance with their training and the flight continued without further incident.
Further comment was being sought from Qantas.
slamer
22nd May 2004, 11:25
Itchy, you really should sit on your hands for a while and think before launching into type!
Who said the ANZ crew recieved a TA/RA before turning? Who said they were both working the same freq?. Sounds to me like the system worked as advertised (not including ATC)
Capn Bloggs
22nd May 2004, 11:51
And fly 1nm right of track...
itchybum
22nd May 2004, 12:10
...both Boeing 767-300s, took evasive action after onboard computers alerted the crews to the danger I guess the journo who wrote the article said it. Did you bother to read it?
The only "computers" I know of which are capable of alerting crews to the danger are known as TCAS. As you know, slamer, the units in BOTH aircraft work together to obtain the appropriate RAs to issue to the two seperate crews, thereby avoiding both crews taking the same action (eg climb) and continuing on collision paths.
Turns do not come into the equation. If I'm wrong someone will let me know, I'm sure. Anyway, fat lot of good initiating the turn did if they still passed practically "over the top" of Qantas.
"System worked as advertised"... Which system are you talking about? :confused:
I know I don't have to tell you, slamer, that TCASII RAs represent aircraft entering the warning area, 15-35 seconds from the collision area. Does that sound like 800m to you? If the crew waited until 800m horizontal seperation to begin the manoeuvre (which I seriously doubt) then I would not call that an example of "the system (any system) working as advertised". I'd say it's more likely to be inaccurate reporting (yet again).
Regarding the accuracy of the report, it's a bit hard to maintain 5nm seperation with opposite direction traffic (seperated as correctly stated by 1000ft).
What does the frequency have to do with it? What are you talking about? :confused:
By the way, what was the FO doing with his head up looking at the NZ a/c, shouldn't he be inside following (or monitoring) the RA commands? If he was giving the bird, well, I guess that's ok then... :ok:
Well done to the guys for handling their TCAS RA.
Capn Bloggs
22nd May 2004, 13:43
Geez itchybum, you need to take a bex and have a good lie down! Your hypothesising on the strength of a journo's report, and sledging of Slamer, is a bit over the top. FWIW, slamer's got his finger more on the pulse than you have.
Three Bars
23rd May 2004, 07:23
Itchy,
Not being pedantic or anal, but just regarding your comments on the FO ....
If the CPT was the PF and the FO was the PNF, the QF PNF duty following an RA is to "Attempt to establish visual contact. Call out any conflicting traffic." In this situation, I presume that the "call out" included a few #$%@ expletives. This would explain his head out the window as the CPT followed the RA (as well as the FOs "gee I nearly died" experience).
The New Zealand Herald
Monday May 24, 2004
CAA still awaiting information from over near-miss
24.05.2004 - 4.00pm
UPDATE - New Zealand civil aviation officials are still awaiting information from Indonesian investigators about a near mid-air collision more than two months ago.
The incident, for which air traffic control error has been cited as the likely cause, happened over a remote part of Indonesia and involved an Air NZ and a Qantas Boeing 767.
The two planes were carrying 268 people between them when they got perilously close to each other off the coast of Irian Jaya on March 22.
The pilots took evasive action after being alerted by on-board computers.
While the incident was revealed by The Australian newspaper on Saturday, the New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said Air NZ pilots' reported it when they landed.
The CAA in turn informed Indonesian authorities at the time, but had not heard back from them, spokesman Bill Sommer said today.
"A lot depends on the complexity of the investigation, but we would probably have expected to have heard something by now," he said.
"We are not planning to send them a hurry-up, but we will monitor it. It happened in their airspace and it is their investigation, under international convention."
Mr Sommer said it appeared human error on the part of traffic control might was a factor.
"The area was outside radar coverage, so they were using procedural techniques to separate the aircraft," he said.
"The route is a commonly used one and this is an isolated incident. The back-up systems we have on the aeroplanes now are very effective in providing that extra defence."
The two aircraft were reported to have got as close as 125m vertically and 800m horizontally, when separation of 305m and five nautical miles (9.2km) respectively was required.
Air NZ chief pilot David Morgan, who is head of the airline's safety and operations, described the incident as significant and believed some part of the air traffic control system had failed.
He also said the traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) on board the planes was a "wonderful device".
"It alerts the pilots to a potential threat, warns of a threat becoming a conflict and then actually resolves the conflict so the pilots can respond.
"The two computers talk to each other, so one aeroplane will be told to do one thing and the other aeroplane will be told to do something else."
Mr Morgan said the Air NZ pilots had not been not emotionally affected by the incident.
"It wasn't a non-event, but they weren't shaken. They followed the procedures they were trained to do."
- NZPA
happydriver
24th May 2004, 12:01
itchy bum.....comments such as yours in regards to third world is neither appropriate nor fair...actually its quite (perceived) typical first world mentality to come up with such a statement !!!!......when will we stop knocking each other and just look at the damn thing for what it is without adding all this additional garbage!!!...ATC failure FINE!!!..lets fix it and get on with it...mate it could just have well been in our airspace.... good job to both crews!