Training for the Aged (38)

[jd10k]

I am 38 (which equates to about 100yrs in piloting terms) and I want to get a commercial pilot licence and work commercially. Airline pilot seems to be a little beyond those of my years, but I think I would enjoy working as a courier or a flight instructor.

My circumstances dictate that I must take an integrated course.

There are a number of training organisations, eg Oxford Aviation and EFT. I wonder if you could enlighten me with your experiences of both.

There is a vast difference in the fees... is this reflected in the quality of the course and the employment prospects?

At my age, are there any employment prospects???

Dare I ask what sort of remuneration to expect?

(Yes, I will get a class 1 medical first.)

[Beast29]

Interesting post Jd10k!! I shall be watching this with interest.

I am 29 and had a shot some years ago, getting as far as PPL before running out of financial options due to death in the family, etc.

I am now seriously considering having another shot at getting into the world of commercial aviation, as I have yet to find any other job which holds any real interest. I had thought of going the Cargo or bizjet route.

A couple of questions to add to the above:

What are the minimum qualifications I would need to achieve in order to start looking for work in commercial aviation? Would a CPL/IR/Multi count for a hill of beans?

What sort of cost am I looking at from my current (lapsed PPL)?

I know this may all sound a little vague, but look forward to some illuminating responses!

jd, hope you don't mind me coat-tailing your post...:=

[jd10k]

Please coat-tail... It is all interesting to me.

If it possible, get your old PPL renovated, as the new ones (JAA) expire.

Just another thought: Do airlines prefer UK or US training? (or don't they care?)

JD :)

[lionco]

It seems to me that the CAA test all pilots before the issuance of a licence. Therefore it is the CAA that set the ultimate Standard not the schools.
You need to have the licence, be in the right place at the right time AND have the personality the company is looking for.
A bit of luck never hurt iether.:hmm:

[Obs cop]

jd10k,

just my thoughts and I stand by to be corrected by others if needs be.

Typically jet airlines try to achieve stability in their crewing and retain staff for as long as possible. There is no bar to you getting an airline post, but you will have a fight on your hands to beat the younger potentially more experienced pilots into that right hand seat.

However, some setups do prefer the more mature pilots as they are less likely to jump ship. Mature pilots traditionally have been more inclined to stay put due to families/ home life and tend to be favoured by air taxi operators and some of the smaller turboprop operators. When you only have a few pilots, the last thing you need is a high staff turnover. Again, being a more mature flying instructor says "I'm here to stay".

Remuneration for flying instructors teaching PPL is very poor, but it does improve once you expand your experience and teach CPL, Multi and IR. Typically they are paid per flying hour (about £10 I believe) and most also get a small retainer/ attendance fee for each day they work, a very limited few are paid a salary. They are still expected to go in even if the weather is clearly too poor for flying.

Your stumbling block for air taxi is that you need 700 hours before taking passengers on single pilot operations. Freight is a different matter, but don't forget that there are jobs out there doing banner towing, night freight, aerial photography, glider towing and so on.

Regards

Obs cop

[Beast29]

Here I go again jd!! Just cosh me on the back of the head if I get in your way...:O

Thanks for your responses guys. Obs cop, what are you referring to when you say that frieght is a different story?

Apologies if I am displaying gross ignorance, but what would be a reasonable requirement for getting into a freight operation?

I am also still very interested in funding? Anybody got any ideas as to the cost of getting to a level where, along with some luck, there would be a reasonable possibility of getting a job? I have a lapsed SA PPL, so would all but be starting from new.

Thanks again,

Beast

[jd10k]

Whop........thud

Yes - that is all interesting, too

[Obs cop]

Beast,


Freight is a very vast and varied operation with everything from single pilot short haul ops to multicrew long haul international. It is far less glamorous than passenger flying and a huge percentage of freight operations take place at night. The requirements can technically be as low as just a CPL, but of course then you cannot fly in controlled airspace and are of no use to a potential employer.

Multi crew operations obviously need fATPL, but I do not know what the single pilot requirements are, I susoect that may well depend on the operator's insurance. The freightdogs forum would probably be able to offer more information.

Regards

Obscop

[flapsnslats]

jd 10 k
This is not meant to influence in any way.
But I do know of a chap who started flying at 34 and was a first officer by the time he was 37 with a passeneger airline flying airbus.He would now be about 44.The one advantage he had was that he had know shortage of money as his previous career left him financially very sound.If you have know previous experience.Then it is no harm to gain a ppl licence.When I started toying with the idea of flying training none of the commercial pilots I know, who are experienced pilots corporate and airline and cargo could not advocate to me taking on a full commercial course intergrated or modular.They said get your ppl first then figure out what to do after.I can only advise on the modular route but if you take it one step at a time your better off in my opinion aviation training is not necesserily full of itegrity as toy are dealing with people and huge egos who want money at the end of the day and no offence to any instructors out there but every barrel has a few bad apples and as long a the majority of the money is in your pocket you know your doing well.If you cough up money to fast, when the arguments start an no doubt every student has his day then you have no leverage If you have payed up. I have a file I built up over time of brochures when I was shopping around and their is a lot of honest john car sales around the training industry.None of the flying schools I have dealt with have been totally upfront.
Download Jar fcl from the official jaa website.

[jd10k]

Latest update is that I am applying for a loan from the HSBC. Let them help me decide.

JD :)

[Ropey Pilot]

If you want to know merits and costs of integrated v modular I suggest you stick those terms in the Proon search engine - its a regular topic and you will see loads of replies / arguments for and against from people more in the know than me:O "fATPL Modular self improver" thread is short and contains a succinct description of both routes - don't know how to link - sorry.

but (what i remember from other peoples posts) Integrated costs £60k~ish and if you are careful, train overseas modular can be as low as £35K.

Beast29 sorry to be the bearer of bad news but (In my opinion) I don't think your PPL will save you much. If I remember rightly a PPL is 40 odd hours (min) and depending how rusty you are it could take half that to get you up to speed again. Those 20-30 hours 'saved' would cost approx US$80 an hour (depending where you went to train - you don't need a UK PPL to get a JAA CPL - I haven't). Don't get me wrong I would rather have that money than not, but it pales into insignificance when IR/Multi training is costing £6 per minute at the end of your course:uhoh:

[zk-pontius]

Read this with interest as at 31 I have just got my PPL and also want to go the commercial route. My big snag (if you will excuse me also coat tailing!) is that having gained my PPL in New Zealand (where I am also planning on gaining my CPL and maybe even instructors rating), I understand that I will have to repeat a lot of the training to work in the UK (where I will be returning to live in a few years). Anyone got any advice on how much will be valid and where to find out more?
By the way, I applied for a cadetship with CTC McAlpine who sort out the EasyJet crowd and train them over here - they turned me down for being too old! Charming! (But worth a try!)

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hi

Add me to the pile! This thread is of interest to me because I also got a PPL (52hrs to date) and now don't know what to do with it. I am 28 and haven't flown since November. So I could quite easily get back in the air and get current again, except that I am strapped for cash and could only afford to fly once a month. The big dilemma is whether to do that and aimlessly bumble on towards extra ratings, or give up for a few years and come back to it when I have saved some money and have a plan (maybe by 2030!!).

I've exhausted sponsorships and self-funded routes, having been dumped from a 100% airline scheme post 9/11.

Thoughts?

Will watch this keenly!

Good luck all.

[endofeng]

Hi all,

Interesting replies, what you have to do is plan well in advance!!!!

Currently at CCAT doing Intergrated course, cost me around £50 big ones!!!! including accom.....I'm 31, got a few friends in the industry, according to them, all is not lost when you hit 30, infact one of my mates is now a captain on A320's, he only qualified at the age of 32!!!

From my mistakes, I would advise you to get planning as early as possible, if your involved in a relationship talk to the other half, because trust me it is very hard being away from home, its a huge strain....

Shop around and don't be afraid to ask for a discount, I paid all up front, most people would advise against this, but I saved myself £5k, and I've only got around 4 months to go before IRT so don't be shy. Most importantly, prepare yourself for the hardest 12-18months of your life, I hadn't studied since college days back when I was a weeeee whipper snapper, and beleive you me it was a huge shock the system having to learn how to revise etc....again.


So best of luck, and read up on your maths!!!!!!!

Endof:ok:

[jd10k]

Well, the plans are under way. It all really depends on getting the loan now. With living costs, etc. I estimate that the course, entirely in America, will cost about £60,000. Of course. there are current problems with fuel prices... that could change a lot!

John

[Beast29]

Just wanted to say good luck to you jd10k!! Hope the loan comes through and you can pursue the dream.

I am going to have to get my house in order first, but hopefully I can have a meaningful crack at it in future...

Will

[jd10k]

Latest news... bank is happy to offer me the loan... if I can come up with some security.

Unfortunately, both grandmothers are dead. Not sure that the owners of my accommodation would appreciate me offering that!

Mmmmmm.... so near, but yet so far


John

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi John,

It seems to me that you are looking to go either the integrated route or a full time modular route.

Would you mind me asking why?

As you require security for the HSBC bank loan, have you thought about doing the modular route one step at a time as and when you can afford the courses?

For example, save up and pay for your PPL. Then once you have your PPL you can start your ATPL Ground School via Distance Learning (around the £2000 mark excluding CAA fees).

Whilst you're studying for the exams you could be putting money away to pay for an hour building stint over in the USA (100 hours at around $70 an hour for a C152 would be $7000 / £4000 in the States).

Once you have the PPL with 150 hours and ATPL Exams passed you'll be eligible to start your CPL and IR courses. This is were it gets expensive but you can probably get away with both courses for 15K-20K - a lot more attainable in terms of bank loans than 60K would be!

You'll have the same license and it'll only take two to three years and at the same time you'll be working fulltime, thus being able to support yourself all the way through the courses. You may just have to have a couple of months off work at the end for the CPL/IR courses.

By then you'll be around the 41/42 mark which, although you'll be up against younger more experienced people, is still not that old.... I know a couple of people who have landed their first airline jobs around the 40yr mark.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[jd10k]

Dear CZ,

I thought I had posted a reply, but I cannot have. [Must have pressed the destruct button, rather than the 'post' one.]

The course I was looking at included a year as an intern instructor. That would have allowed me to finish with all the professional qualifications and 1500hrs under the belt. That would have been nice.

I am currently in a low paid profession. In order to go the modular route, I have to change profession, then do the modular training, then change profession again. Although that will have the advantage of leaving me without the significant debt at the end of it.

I already have the PPL and nearly 100hrs.

If I were able to do the integrated route, I would end up potentially ready for the airlines just before my 41 birthday.

Going modular, this will not be until I am 43 (or 45 with the same number of hours).

Every minute makes one less employable, I believe.

So, those are my reasons... now looking for modular solutions.

JD :)

(Preferably near Bromley)

[jd10k]

It is now certain that the only way to the ATPL is now through the modular route. Does anyone have suggestions for jobs that I could take to both fund the course and to make me more employable as a pilot afterwards?

John

[zk-pontius]

Charlie Zulu - your reply interested me - I have the PPL and the 100 hours and the distance learning ATPL would really be of use to me as I could do that from here (NZ) in time to come back the UK in a couple of years qualified whilst still getting the cheap glying here - can you tell me where would be the best places to make enquiries about the distance learning ATPL stuff?

Would really appreciate it!
Cheers

[jd10k]

Thanks for that... was thinking that having the 1500hrs as an intern instructor would be useful. However, now the loan route is disappearing, I am looking forward to pursuing the modular route.

It does mean one or two sacrifices... selling most of my stuff, living with relatives, getting a different job for the time being... but nothing ventured, nothing gained!


Have ATPL theory books... have started studying them.

Thanks, zk, for your post, too.


JD :)

[eyuppp]

jd10k,

Which groundschool/ATPL texts did you decide upon in the end.
Well done, and all the best for your training,

E

[mesh]

Sold house, some of belongings, lived back with parents for a year at the grand age of 32. Joined integrated course last Oct, currently sat having done 7 JARS, 90 hours of the course...October is not far away. Haven't been out, haven't dated a woman, have no money but in October that is all going to change. When I meet the mates, pull the girl and drink the drink I will look different. I will have a years flying memories in my head, have many new friends, a nice blue liscence in my pocket and the smile of a man who had a dream and followed it to the end.

Just go for it!

[Flying Farmer]

You forgot one thing there Mesh, the job at the end of it all ;) :{

[jd10k]

Yes, I was wondering who the man with the smile was... jobs still not easy to get. I think someone said that the market is improving again!

I got the Oxford Aviation texts... they seem clear enough and have questions and answers sections.

Think that an easier route might be to buy some blue paint for my brown licence... but only at the beginning - many adventures ahead.

The maths is that I will spend £10,000 pa on flying. That's got to be fun. Who cares if I get a job at the end of it. lol. (Would be nice, though.)

So here I go - off into the blue yonder.

John

[NYCSavage]

wow!!! Im 26 (27 in August) and was warned that I may be past it!!!:eek:

At the moment I have a total of 0 hours flying (but over 250 on ms flight 2004!!!)

The only thing that is stopping me paying £3000 and going to Florida to learn is I have a 2 year old son to think about, otherwise I would probably have had my PPL by now (oh and lack of money also! :O )

Everthing I read here is helping me learn new things everyday but Im almost 100% certain that I want to be that guy in the smartly pressed suit in the left hand seat of a Boeing after travelling 3000 odd miles from Manchester, UK to JFK, NY (and maybe a few 10 hour flights to the Caribbean)

If anyone can give me any advice then I would really appreciate it

Thanks guys

[jd10k]

Well, today I went to Oxford to see the APP program. It seems to be everything it says on the web-site. The planes looked shiny (although the single-engine ones that the British trainees use are out in the State and I didn't have a chance to pop out there). People seem friendly and coordinated. I was impressed.

The problem is finding something to secure my loan on... just found out that the offer of a £60k loan was pretty good going... I had done my own business case, so I was quite chuffed.

The other delegates could have been my children... but there you go. [I don't think any of them were, though.]

[perfectchair]

Im 35 and feeling it but i wanna be a proper pilot!!! Apart from the financial aspect is it really that hard,how long will it take if I can afford the best tution and all the time?(going to use equity in house to fund training ,think I will tell them I want a conservatory!!)

[Megaton]

Harsh reality is that many of the airlines are looking for youth or experience. Curent phrase is experience commensurate with age so if you're in your thirties and have 250 hrs you're probably not going to get much of a look in. There are exceptions, I know, and I have a friend who started with Brittania last year with 400 odd hrs in his early-mid thirties. BA Citiexpress looking for people who are under 30. EasyJet accepting people on their TRSS who have in excess of 500 hrs. Even if you do join FlyBE, BA Citiexpress or Loganair, how long will it take you to pay back £60000 when you're earning £20000? Pay scales here (http://www.ppjn.com)

There is no business case in the world that can justify this. Remember the bank wants to lend to you because that's how they make their money.

[mesh]

Flying Farmer

The thing that I have seen from pprune and talking to various people is that you seem to have 2 camps. Camp 1, I have paid £60,000 therefore I should at least have a job at the end of it. Camp 2, I have paid £60,000 and believe I can get a job at the end of it.

Lets take a profession that doesn't realy include self finance ie a Surgeon. Some guy or girl spends endless years of their life studying, not going out on the lash, building up there CV with interesting hobbies, sports etc. and becomes a thoroughly 'employable' person. They still haveto go for an interview, they still haveto sell themselves and correct me if I'm wrong but do they walk out of Medical school with job contract in hand, NO!

The difference with a commercial flying job is that there is no real barrier to entry for training for what is essentialy a professional vocation. For doctor, lawyer, vet etc you haveto have achieved a high level of academic secess prior to training eg if you get through this you pretty much know you can get through the rest. For this job if you have the bucks you can do the course. In my book that's a very positive factor that a lot of students forget. Don't get me wrong and I don't know individual circumstances but I hear every day from students about job worries and how hard it all is. If these same students were put into the commercial business world they would find it just as hard if not harder to get a decent job. A lot of them are grossly underqualified, have done little with there lives and are highly unemployable but they seem to forget this because they have been fortunate enough to be able to afford the training.

Too much time is spent looking at the negatives of this industry and I beleive a lot of the time it's by people who haven't got the self faith that they can do it. I'm sure those of us that have had commercial flying training will have seen it all. Some of these students have endless pots of cash, they have taken JAR's endless times, they have taken flight tests hundreds of times they have been doing the integrated course for 3 years and who is it that's sat talking about how they are owed a job because they have put so much into this career...guess who?

I sound a bit harsh but it does get to me sometimes when I keep hearing about 'yeah but will there be a job at the end of it'. I don't know, what would David Beckham, Eric Clapton and Robbie Williams have said if you told them as I'm sure there mothers and friends did..put that ball down down david and do your homework, put the guitar down Eric or you will end up playing to the commuters on the tube...Robbie, you leave this band and you are finished, you are nothing without us. They went for what they wanted, job or no job and when they made that choice career security would have been where on there list?

This vocation is highly insecure, you may never get a flying job, the pay is falling and the hours are crap. My advice is keep your money in the bank, get a job with the government (nice pension), take your 2 week hols. with the family each year and enjoy yourself. To all those who are willing to risk it and that's all it is, then go for it.

[2close]

At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I can't help thinking what will happen when Age Discrimination legislation is brought onto the UK statute books in 2006.

The 45 year old with 1500 hrs, say 100 - 200 MEP, passed over in favour of the 23 year old with 250 hrs, mostly SEP, may have legal grounds for complaint.

[mesh]

Doesn't that happen now?

[2close]

I think what you'll find is that there are Age Discrimination Codes of Practice in place which, whilst being best practice guidelines, are not compulsory for employers.

My understanding is that, in 2006 Regulations are to be introduced that will more or less 'mirror' the existing CoP but which are legal obligations for those affected.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the flood gates will be opened for all who feel aggrieved. As with all new legislation, there will be a settling in period and, of course, until case law precedent is set, there will probably be a great deal of uncertainty.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if certain employment groups were granted exemptions, possibly even civil aviation.

BTW, I am not a legal professional so do not comment with any authority.

[jd10k]

I suppose the question I have never seen answered is 'Are younger people better pilots?' I can see that the may well have better reaction times, learn quicker, etc.
On the other hand, older people are likely to have more experience of life, more idea of how to cope in an emergency and a better attitude to risk.
So, are there accident/other stats that would show which is best?

[jd10k]

Well done HSBC! As my parents did not want to give the bank their house... the bank have come up with another solution:
an escrow account, or an option on life insurance.

This is a possibility.


So life suddenly looks more exciting!

JD

PS An escrow is an account with the bank that my parents would leave money in, in case I did not pay back the loan, the bank could use their money.
The escrow account would gain interest.

Can my parents tie up that sort of money for that length of time? ... That is the question!

[jd10k]

Still no reply on the escrow thing... but I have passed my class 1 medical. This means that the rest of it is possible.

For those interested in the medical... before you can take the EEG, you have to sign a form acknowledging that the test may bring on some form of fit. If it does bring on the fit, you will lose your DRIVING licence for a time (normally at least a year). As my current job is dependent upon me driving, I did gulp hard as I signed. The potential was that I could fail the class 1 - meaning no hope of professional pilotting AND lose my current job.

Happily, the heavy breathing and flashing lights did not adversely affect me. However, for some of you this might be an important consideration. [Hope that is a helpful warning.]

Although now have an unhealthy love of disco... darned test.

[80/20]

At my age, are there any employment prospects???
The old established European airlines used to have maximum age but many of them have realized that it can be beneficial to hire “older” candidates. Many low cost carriers have no age restriction and will gladly hire a copilot in his mid to late forties if he meets the requirements.
Dare I ask what sort of remuneration to expect?
Low time pilots right out of AB-inito with ATPL and a type rating, e.g. B737 can get hired as copilots. The starting salary range for this is £29,000 - £42,000. Plan on low end for the low cost carriers.
“There are a number of training organisations, eg Oxford Aviation and EFT. I wonder if you could enlighten me with your experiences of both”
To a certain extent you get what you pay for but it is difficult to do a good cost benefit assessment. In your case time is more of an issue so I would recommend to go with someone like Oxford.

[redsnail]

Remuneration isn't bad if you land yourself a jet job.
If you get a turboprop job don't expect a lot of money.
Lowest I know for an FO is 14K (night freight Shed job - may have to even pay for the rating), average for turboprop FO's is 18-20K.

Can you live on that kind of money and pay back a huge loan on that? Expect to be an FO for ~3 years.
You might think that's not bad, do that for a year or so and then get a jet job. That's fine but have a look at the folks who are hiring turboprop pilots. The same companies that now charge ~23K to join them. If you haven't got an ATPL, you'll be on the lower end of the pay scale.

The Q400 I believe isn't bad at around 29K.

[STANDTO]

I looked at this in 2002 in the life laundry after my old man died. My current job pays pretty well (£2500 a month in my hand), I have £200k equity in my house and life is comfortable. I have done my job for 15 years, and am 15 years off pension (52). Hopefully I will attain at least another two ranks prior to retirement. I can't be sacked unless I do something criminal.

I have a mate who is a source of many wise words. His advice is to remember where you come in the food chain. Your sole purpose in life it to provide for your dependants. Despite the fact you only get one crack at this life, part of the pleasure is seeing others benefit from your toils.

I want to be an airline pilot. The reality is, I am not going to be one. The stakes are too high and the wife and kids aren't chips in a poker game.

I would always say to anyone thinking of risking everything, find someone older than you to mentor your ideas, and keep the reality checks coming thick and fast

STANDTO

[jd10k]

Thanks STANDTO,

Wise words indeed. I do have a mentor... a very experienced older pilot.

I am fortunate in that I do not have dependents. [So I can only ruin one life.] It seems that the sensible option is to go modular. There were some advantages to the integrated route (speed and the level of experience I would get as part of the course I was looking at).

Thanks again, STANDTO.

[Biscuit]

jd10k,

The level of experience you will receieve on the modular route will be the same as on the integrated. Also, if you do the modules back to back you will complete the course in the same time as the integrated. However, if you go from what they say on these forums you'll get a job quicker after the integrated route. I don't agree personally.

B

[High Wing Drifter]

I emailed Channel Express hoping to discover what the relevance of their specific requirement of Integrated and JOC (anybody say APP) courses was to their need for low-timers. As yet, a week later, I have not received a reply.

[jd10k]

I don't understand that... time and time again we are told that there is no difference between modular and integrated (except the cost)