BA reject pilot's pay proposal.

[Hot Wings]

BA have rejected BALPA's very reasonable pay proposal of RPI for 2004. Its funny that nobody told the Director of Flight Ops or MS!

Nothing will stand in the way of our senior management reaching the target of a 10% operating margin - and getting their 50% salary bonus as a result.

[Roobarb]

This comes as no surprise, does it?

BA have no intention whatsoever of settling with the pilots, on the contrary. The Prince of Darkness sees his moment to destroy once and for all the ‘pilot force’ in BA. He considers us as no more than donkeys, and stupid ones at that. He also believes that he is the anointed one that will deliver flagged out planes flown by non-British pilots like cheap no-frills junks on some eastern sea.

I’m extremely concerned here, because BALPA is sleepwalking into oblivion. They have totally underestimated the lengths that this odious little man is prepared to go to to achieve his aim.

We can look forward to two possible outcomes this summer. A humiliation of professional pilots in BA with a scorched earth slaughter of terms and conditions, or a bitter and bloody industrial dispute with some of the most vicious and nasty tactics in the history of UK industrial relations. I’m not exaggerating, I was there last time.

Sadly, many of my colleagues couldn’t give a toss. They’re either already crystallised and fat dumb and happy, or they’re too sacred and don’t want to rock the boat, or they’re so young and having too much fun to get involved.

Either way I am very pessimistic about the ability of BALPA to overcome this innate lethargy amongst the workforce and make a stand. If they don’t, then the profession in the UK will never be the same again.
http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roohorn.gif
I’ll take on the competition anyday! It’s my management I can’t beat!

[propaganda]

Roobarb,

If your mate Custard is still around, tell him to make his last stand and call in the Cavalry...your little big horn approaches.
;)

[Human Factor]

Roobarb,

I would expect the second of your outcomes. It will be less than pretty and at worst, if the (mis)management don't handle it properly, will be the end of BA as we know it.

I would suggest that if we, as a group, do nothing then we deserve everything which is inflicted upon us such as the future loss of NAPS, Bidline and other lesser T&Cs. Therefore we should stand up for ourselves. We have nothing to lose.

[Brookmans Park]

Dig your heels in and fight guys and gals
or you will end up in the same CRAP situation as Ryanair
with a flask of coffee in your nav bag
(IF you can gat it past jobsworth at the security
gate)

[BLRulesOK]

Pod doesn't realise the strength of feeling on the line. Nor the contempt that with which he is held. He has deliberately made it so that BALPA have no choice but to strike: all managers in the company to get 50% salary as a bonus when BA reach the magic 10%, whilst the pilots have been offered 1 weeks salary.

Eventually BA T&C's get reflected as the benchmark for all the negotiations for every UK company. If BALPA lose this one then UK aviation will enter a dark age for pilots. Every company will want to take on its flight crew. BALPA will be dead in the water. The guys have the strength and power to win this battle but do they have the will. It's time the greed of the large corporations was held to account.

[Hot Wings]

Perhaps we should affiliate ourselves with the RMT?

[Jack The Lad]

Roobarb

With respect, did you ever believe that BALPA would ever be any different? I've been in this business a long time, as I know you have been too, and nothing ever changes.

IMHO, you'd be better keeping your 1% in your wallet, having a local agreement with your colleagues and getting on with your career.

Apart from BA, very few airlines want BALPA, they are just saddled with them and would be happy to get shot of them, but they canot beacuse of previous local agreements. BALPA want and need the money to survive, as a parasite on the back of English pilots.

When needed, they have a history of falling very short of their members expectations. Collectively they appear to support the BA pilots, but individually they rarely rise to the challenge as evidenced many times before. Ask any Dan Air pilot or more specifically talk to the widow of poor Glen Stewart!

As for those pilots that contribute their 1% salary and don't work for BA, that is surely a 'no brainer'!

Enough said

[Chutney]

very few airlines want BALPA

ummm, I think that's the idea Jack:hmm: :hmm:

Ask Virgin. Think the boys and girls got their 1% back a few times over don't you?? Surely a no brainer?

Pip Pip:}

[jerrystinger]

When will it be acknowledged that the 'golden age' of flying is over and that airlines can only survive if operating costs are brought into line with what the punters actually pay?

5 years ago flying economy on a national carrier could be quite an expensive affair, but now the fares are getting lower and lower - and even BA claims to offer cheaper fares than Easyjet and Ryanair on certain routes!
What's the result for the company's staff? Blatantly obvious surely.............Lower fares WILL have to equate to lower crew operating costs and this is reflected in a general management attitude that is now proving unpopular with so many.
As stated, the 'golden age' is over as airline crews are now simply management targets whose costs need to be reduced as much as possible, who need to work their 'service staff' to the maximum and who need to pay as little as the airline can get away with!

I can just see one of the targets on BA's managements office walls....highlighted in red - "Pay them less, work them harder!"

[Well thats Me]

Jerry
Being a poorly paid engineer who has to constantly work with high paid cabin crew and Pilots on 6 or 7 times what i get you would think i would be on your bandwagon,the reason i am not is BA could make its 10% operating margin they just need to ditch all the deadwood they have offered the 50% too to acheive it - BA is not a business regardless what they say but it has the potential to make lots and lots of money,RE and his minders just refuse to face the truth!

[Digitalis]

BALPA - thanks to the unstinting work of a relatively small number of people - did Virgin proud by mobilising the opinion of those who would normally not get involved. They made sure everyone knew of past injustices and anticipated future injustices and persuaded all pilots that, unless they fought, the future was pretty bleak. It worked. But it needed some very dedicated people on the CC, and some hard decisions from the troops on how far they were prepared to go.

The Virgin situation was an example of self-respect triumphing over self-interest. It can be replicated elsewhere....!

[Scottie]

Jack the Lad wrote:

BALPA want and need the money to survive, as a parasite on the back of English pilots.

Yeh we in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don't have em :}

There was me thinking it was British

You ignorant tw*t.

[Carruthers]

Ah the Virgin myth. Taking it's place among the other myths such as 'we will get you out of jail' 'defend you from the beastly management' and 'get you better terms and conditions'. Sure Virgin will get a large pay rise if they get a corresponding increase in profit, no evidence of it yet though. No doubt the brave boys of the CC had Mr Branson quivering in fear to achieve this amazing jam tomorrow (well maybe) deal. The forces of the market will inevitably destroy the established cosy practices of sixties still evident at BA, the future is Orange.

[XL5]

Ah, Mr Carruthers, tongue firmly lodged up management's backside as usual. You must truly like the taste. An invidious and pitiful position to be in really, rejected by your once peers yet never accepted by those who have only ever worn suits. I've often wondered about your sort, haven't lost any sleep over it though.

You may well be correct in stating that the future is orange, but it only holds true if those on the front line are prepared to tollerate a second rate career with no quality of life. Even the stupid wise up sooner or later.......hopefully.

[gonadz]

Carruthers

Your "Virgin myth" has been arriving in my pay packet since last summer.

No point letting the facts get in the way eh?

[Digitalis]

Ah, Carruthers :hmm: Talking bollox with aplomb. Well done.

Oh, by the way... my (Virgin) pay is around 12% more now than it was this time last year, and I'm about to get a nice little rise on top of that thanks to the profit we made in 2003-4.

Would you like to revise your post? :rolleyes:

[Meeb]

Good on you Scottie, took the words right out of my mouth.... :ok:

As for:

As for those pilots that contribute their 1% salary and don't work for BA, that is surely a 'no brainer'!

That just plain daft!

[maxy101]

If I could second Hot Wings sentiments....what do we have to lose? For years I have stomached earning less than Cabin Crew and Watersiders. Just as I come into earning the going rate for the job, it seems BA want to stuff us all again. Statements such as "the golden age of flying is over" miss the fact that BA is a goldmine if it is run properly. i.e Benchmarking across the company. Sorting out the massive absenteeism. The problem BA has is not the "grossly inflated " salaries that some peopl are on for the job, but the fact that some of them only turn up to work when they have nothing better to do. Sort these problems out and we can all turn this airline around without plonkers like P o D

[Chattanooga Choo Choo]

hah, if only we had the unity of membership that a traditional union such as the RMT. Can you imagine the railway workers sitting back and letting their passengers be driven by trainee train drivers who had to pay more than the passengers to get to their destination?

If you think that is a joke, you are not going to believe that some airlines are actually letting their junior co-pilots pay for the privilege of their line training, never mind just the type rating. These co-pilots are a part of the operational crew of the aircraft and have decided that the only way to get any experience is to pay for it. And guess what? There are airlines out there that will gladly take their money and put them in the right hand seat. These airlines take the money from these trainees and have no qualms about the fact that the trainee is actually paying far more than the passengers down the back to reach their destination, both ways.

So, if you think Balpa are going to get any of us organised enough to do anything about a pay rise at BA, just have a look at the furore about some of the crew on some flights paying more than their passengers. The RMT would let the employers charge their newly recruited train drivers for the privilege of sitting in the drivers cab to gain experience. Yes, sure they would. :rolleyes:

[Crash_and_Burn]

Can I ask where the myth of a 50% pay bonus for all managers comes from? First i'd heard about it.

It's the kind of falsehood and chinese whispers that cause problems.

If we were to achieve a 10% operating Margin, the Management grades would get a bonus, of between 0 and 20%, based on thier individual performance for that year, the average would be about 10%, not 50%. If you sit around and do nothing, you get a very low performance score and get no bonus!

My dept. has over 50% fewer people than we had 2 years ago, with a workload 7% higher, and my pay has not gone up 57%, it's gone up 3%, with no performance bonuses for the past 3 years becasue of the poor financial results.

Your "secerative" pay deal of two years ago, beat my pay rise by a substantial amount so I wouldn't complain too much.

C&B

[TURIN]

MY DEPT HAS OVER 76% FEWER THAN 2 YEARS AGO, I WORK AS HARD AS BEFORE WITH LONGER HOURS AND NO OVERTIME AND MY PAY HAS DROPPED 8%!:mad:

Not having a go but if BALPA fail then what hope is there for the rest of us?:(

[Count Acclaim]

Yawn.

How about just getting on with the job and being thankful you actuallly have one?

[Lucifer]

Because apathetic attitudes like that achieve nothing, and in future won't make the job worth doing.

Yawn yawn - get a better attitude.

[Human Factor]

Crash & burn,

Can I ask where the myth of a 50% pay bonus for all managers comes from?

Not a myth. The 50% applies to certain heads of departments. As far as the "secretive" pay deal goes, most of us broke even. Those who won (junior captains) are now on the correct going rate for the job based on the European market. So check your facts or wind your neck in.

[ETOPS]

Crash & Burn

It was actually an intranet article which said that managers had agreed to limit any future bonuses to 50% of their salary as a cost saving. This to apply to Rod and all senior grades below - just under 1000 people.

[Sleeve Wing]

Chr*st,I'm glad I'm out of it !

Never looked back since I retired and certainly haven't missed the inane bickering that comes around every so often.... and we had the better days.

Be sure of one thing though.................

If BA pilots don't support each other and squash this, the whole of the industry will follow suit and a pilot's job won't be worth a candle.

The Management suits who persist in these forays into Aircrew salaries will never understand how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing.

Pie in the sky really !

Sleeve. ( ex-independent )

[Shuttleworth]

HF is correct in his post above.
You guys also need to read the letter by Cap't Wood in this months log - sums the situation up nicely.

[jerrystinger]

"how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing. "



So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced?

[Lucifer]

And that sort of justification makes it alright does it Jerry Stinger? Tell that to the media when some overworked souls with their mind on other problems cock up resulting in a hull loss.

It might surprise you that most people plan their lives around what salary they expect to achieve and it affects quite a few when Ts & Cs are degraded. Did you notice interest rates rise recently? Have you considered mortgage repayments? Do you know how much it costs to live in the South East? Do you realise how punitive seniority systems are to those who move to other employers? Thought not.

[Human Factor]

Also, if there ever was a hull loss (heaven forbid), exactly how long would you expect BA to survive?

[jerrystinger]

Lucifer - I am fully aware of the cost of living in the South East, but then again, I don't live beyond my means. You almost seem to imply that you should be paid more, not because of your skills, but because of your personal living expenses. Hhmmm..

[Lucifer]

I neither imply nor state it. I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance.

I also imply that your statement So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced? is of flawed logic.

Read Sleeve Wing's post and attempt to understand it before replying.

[Well thats Me]

Quote

"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety"

Rest i can see although BA flight crew get more than most,pray tell me how pay affects FLIGHT SAFETY then?, If that were true engineers would be paid similar to yourself

[Carruthers]

XL5 That chip on your shoulder must be very heavy, who pray owes you any sort of career first or second rate? You are only worth what the market will stand and as you have doubtless observed the market isn't impressed.
Gonadz and Digitalis, so you have a productivity related pay rise, congratulations, your union though has been telling the rest of us that they have secured a 30% rise for you!!??

[Airbus Girl]

Just to lighten the mood....

A big corporation recently hired several cannibals.

"You are all part of our team now," said the HR director during the
welcoming briefing. "You get all the usual benefits and you can go to the cafeteria for something to eat, but please don't eat any of the other employees".

The cannibals promised they would not.

Four weeks later their boss remarked, "You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with you. However, one of our secretaries has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to her?"

The cannibals all shook their heads.

After the boss had left, the leader of the cannibals said to the others, "Which one of you idiots ate the secretary?"

A hand rose hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals shouted,

"You fool!!! For four weeks we've been eating Managers and no one noticed anything, but noooooo, you had to go and eat someone important!"

[jerrystinger]

"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance."


So, the safety of your a/c can depend on how much you are paid. Your logic intrigues me (and obviously others).

????????????

[Sleeve Wing]

Just back on the thread, JS, and aware of your totally anonymous sniping.
It may interest you to know that I have been in the business, both military and civilian, for over forty years.
I'm still in it, now passing on my experience ( for peanuts I might add ) to the young lads who have the same aspirations I had.
The reason I stayed in it was because was good at it and took a pride in what I was doing.
That's no reason to degrade my salary at every commercial opportunity.

Now tell us your success story.

Rgds, Sleeve.

:yuk:

[Well thats Me]

Sleeve Wing

I dont want to degrade any of the BA pilots,what i would like to see somewhen though is an honest " We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike " rather than we are paid loads because we are top professionals.

I am not degrading it ( I hope ) but i have seen the training which then requires a extreme amount of good fortune to get a job,at the end of the day however an ATPL takes a year to obtain,a doctor takes 7 years to train and the qualifications are far harder.I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.

[M.Mouse]

I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay

No but if takes a career path ending in Consultant or higher his/her salary dwarfs anything a pilot can earn.

It is a fallacy that because 'We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike ". If that was true our engineers, who do deserve much higher pay, would be able to use the same tactic.

I admit we are a powerful negotiating group but at the the end of the day market forces are the most telling influence on pilot salaries.

I worked for a small scheduled carrier in the late '80s. BA started recruiting, people left the charter operators and people like myself left the turbo-prop operators. My salary went up 40% in 12 months in an effort to keep people from leaving! I still left and my company could not get or keep pilots, that was until the market changed and once again there became a surplus of pilots.

I work for BA and I get paid a good salary (for which we work a damn site harder than 10 years ago) but if anybody here thinks that what BA pay doesn't influence the rest of the industry then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

As has been discussed ad nauseum it is now questionable whether the move to BA is worth it for someone working for one of the other decent companies in the UK. The situation will be reached where if BA cannot recruit sufficient people then they will have to improve the package and the whole roundabout starts turning again.

[Lucifer]

I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.
However they are self-employed, and therefore are a poor comparison - a hospital doctor might be a better one - if they aid the discussion I will post some increments here, less of course private patient income. 2001 GP increments can be found at http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/06/85/12/04068512.pdf on page 35. All expenses can be claimed on top, taking the average turnover of a GP to £139,000 in 2001. Much more than a BA pilot. Additionally consider private income.

For all doctors in 2004:

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/DDRBReportSummary2004

This excludes any overtime, private fee income, allowances for greater qualifications, additional income from other bodies etc, but simply core income from the NHS.

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/DDRB0304fact

Information on salary multipliers etc.

[Well thats Me]

Lucifer
I can see where your coming from but i think you are refering to consultants only,i would read them across to a BA management training Captain - lots and lots of GPs ( including a close friend of mine ) dont work in London and their expenses are used for their daily jobs,he has been a GP for 22 years and earns 65K.

If pilots were as you say on a supply and demand basis then why doesnt BA train up a few hundred on the cheap?,theres a willing supply of smart people wanting to do the job.
--- I dont want to knock you all here ( honest ) what i want to say is maybe the factors of the past with state owned airlines that led to the " supply and demand " drain of smaller carriers are not the same today with the LCCs -- Is that right or wrong i dont know. .......... We are constantly told " TIMES HAVE CHANGED " in engineering.

One factor to consider though and one RE knows well ( and this is not speculation ) is the pilots make up 8% of the BA workforce and account for 22% of the wage bill !

[overstress]

I think the throwaway line 'it takes a year to get an ATPL' and all this comparisons with GPs etc is totally meaningless.

The point of the thread is surely that BA terms and conditions are considered by some at least to have some influence on the rest of the industry. There are over 3500 of us in one group.

Well that's me - you are an engineer I believe; you are stirring the pot here and you well know it. Why the obsessive interest in our T's & C's? Why not look to contribute something useful to other forums?

[ZQA297/30]

It is all too common to hear "it only takes a year to get an ATPL". This is either incredible ignorance or intellectual dishonesty

There are not many reputable carriers who would consider putting a one year wonder in the left seat of their flashy new BoeBus.

Lets be honest, it takes a pilot longer than the Doctors' 7 years to meet the requirements to draw the (Junior) Captains pay scale in most recognised carriers.

In that time our co-pilot will have accumulated in excess of 5,000 hours and have had well over 20 pretty gruelling flying tests and exams. He will have been closely medically examined at least 7 or 8 times, or up to twice that, depending on his age/licence.

Even when he finally settles into that well earned left seat with a sigh, the consequences of medical or check/exam failure are catastrophic, as are many operational errors.

So let us not sell the pilots job short.

[Human Factor]

How does the salary affect flight safety?

It doesn't. What does affect flight safety is the fact that I get paid x quid to fly a jet from A to B. A couple of years ago, that x quid meant I flew about 720 hours. Now, for as near as dammit the same x quid, I do well over 800 hours per year on the 777 with an average of five transatlantics per month (10 crossings). There is no slack in the system, as the company is currently finding out.

Personally, I would rather have the same x quid and have my hours reduced to something a bit more realistic than get a pay rise. A ten percent cut in hours would do it and, more importantly, improve flight safety because crews would not be fatigued (as opposed to tired).

[Blackball]

Ah Human Factor, try doing over 800 hours short haul as at SHAG. Now that is fatiguing especially under the Carmen regime. Still remember it was as BALPA would be the first to point out in their defence a"collective" agreement.

[Thrush]

Yawn............!

[heavy crew]

Actually a little time ago I was told I was a overpaid/ underworked member of cabin crew but if I did 800 flying hours per year it would be a drop of over 20%.

I honestly think human has a point, but IMHO not just for pilots, cabin crew get fatigued too and we have no 900 hour limit to protect us.:ok:

[M.Mouse]

HC

Is that SH or LH?

If it is LH how much of that time is bunk time?

Seems a lot of hours to me but an error made by you and an error made by a pilot due to fatigue have quite different consequences.

[normal_nigel]

Crew

You do indeed get tired and have to deal with jet lag etc.

However having just risen from the bunks and feeling a little jaded whats the worst you can do. Spill coffee on someone? You can't really compare. And don't use the door argument. If we crashed and you had to open it you would as the adrenlin would kick in.

Thats if BASSA allowed you to do it of course. Would you ring them first? What if the crash occured outside of your industrial limits?

NN

[Big Tudor]

heavy crew

As of December last year, the European Working Time Directive came into force for aircrew. In that there is a 900 block hr yearly limit.

[heavy crew]

Regarding Mr mouse I am at LGW LH and I have not seen a bunk for many years, infact since the 744's went back to LHR.

Nigel I feel sorry for any crew that fly with you, your lack of comprehension of what makes a team borders on negligence.

I of course realise that cabin crew are not as important as the pilots in the overall safety of the A/C, but we are all human beings and as such suffer in similar ways the effects of fatigue.
You should worry less about how important you or cabin crew are and realise that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Infact you are the weakest link goodbye.
Hee Hee couldn't resist that one.

Big Tudor thanks for your reply, I wasn't aware that the EWTD limit of 900 hours for aircrew actually meant cabin crew.
I assumed aircrew was pilots only.

I will look into that, thanks for your help.

[normal_nigel]

Getting you workshy idiots to actually go to work is the biggest challenge of the day unless there's a load of allowances at stake or you need to get home for Wimbledon (assuming that you're not on the sick to start with).

No wonder we lose money with BASSA running the airline.
NN

[heavy crew]

Nigel I believe we actally made a profit last year, unlike many airlines and to be candid Cabin crew attendance currently is very good.

I have posted before many ways to improve it, however I feel that given the same conditions, cabin crew attendance would be very similar to our pilots.

You of course will not as you are just going to continue making a racket about something to hold little if any knowledge about.

As for BASSA running the airline I am sure that the BA board do that, when they make decisions that affect their workers then they negotiate these with the respective unions IE BALPA, BASSA, ect.

This is the way a large company is run.

Tudor I have bounced your point off a few people and we feel that the directive does not apply to cabin crew, do you know differently, if you do could you please expand on it?

Thanks

[normal_nigel]

Actually pal I know a lot about it The crap I have to put up with from fat old ex-sea stewards and pompous Windsor Witches is quite unbelievable. Anything not to work especilly if there's some Pimms on offer somewhere near the river.

Oh and I might just post some interesting salary figures if I can find the link.

Oh here we are



http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages2.jpg http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages1.jpg http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages3.jpg

[dicksynormous]

Crew,

"I have posted before many ways to improve it, however I feel that given the same conditions, cabin crew attendance would be very similar to our pilots."

Given the same investment in careers,the same levels of knowledge, responsibility,levels of constant skills,medical checking and ultimate responsibilty, then you would be eligible for the same conditions as the pilots.

The team and your role in the team is important, but the team are not all the same.

Its may sound offensive but i could do your job with no further training, not vice versa. Dont take it personnaly its just a fact. I do not demean your job but it does not demand the levels mentioned above.Therefore the rewards are different. Thats life the world over.

Crm is a tool to manage, and extract the best from a team , not a communist doctrine designed to make it a flight by commitee.

[thegirth]

Heavy Crew,

If it's bunk time you're after LHR is the place.

Cabin Crew rush a service in order to maximise time away from passengers. They then retire to the rest area even on East Coast flights when rest is not rostered.

Does the cabin get checked every 20 mins? Do the toilets get security checked? Can a passenger grab a water from a tray that travels at high speed carried by a crew member that refuses to make eye contact in case she has to stop? Do drinks get topped up in 1st or does a passenger have to go to the galley for a refill?

Answers - No. No. No. No and Yes!!!

BA make a profit in spite of cabin staff not because of them.

A minority still surprise me by enjoying their jobs and wanting to go the extra mile though. It used to be the other way around. Big shame.

[Carnage Matey!]

Average days sickness per year for BA employees:

Flight crew: 10
Cabin crew: 26

[Airbus Girl]

I don't want to stir things as I don't know much about BA's cabin crew, but just so you can compare, the cabin crew in the airline I work for (major UK holiday airline) earn around £10-12k plus around £200 allowances. They can earn commission if the spend the entire flight working their guts out and selling everything they can. They also have targets for the number of completed Customer Feedback Questionnaires they must collect. As well as doing the bar service and meal service. All this on all regular flights, whether they be 2 hour sectors or 5 (or longer).

Our crew's sickness is taken into account when promotions are discussed. Most crew will come in even if they are ill, so they don't have a bad record. It is quite rare for cabin crew to go sick, other than the new recruits who don't like the job and eventually leave.

We have excellent CRM with them, they work very hard but accept that our jobs are very different. If they wanted to be paid our salary then there is nothing stopping them training as pilots.

[maxy101]

Carnage Matey Where did you get those figures from? One has to be careful as different departments seem to "massage" their own departments figures when compared to everyone else. Recently attended a flight crew forum where it was stated that they were worried about the "increase" in pilot sickness. When challenged for some hard figures it went very quiet. After all, 2 pilots going sick per day when previously there was only one is a 100% increase in sickness, no?

[5415N]

Heavy Crew ,


go back to CREWCOM , at least there you might find someone who is remotely interested in you

[M.Mouse]

From what I hear HC is driving everybody away/to sleep over there too.

[normal_nigel]

Don't know about the seagulls but in flight ops its 10 days amonth (source BALPA) for flying staff.

The reason the flight ops figure from the company is higher is that it included ground based flight ops staff who are off more than the pilots.

NN

seagulls Staff you have to throw stones at to make them fly (or Far East allowances)

[maxy101]

Hold on people, let Heavy Crew have his/her say. HC is expressing views that are expressed on the other side of the flight deck door. Heavy Crew is giving time and effort on this forum to enable us to either modify our behaviour (to try and change opinions) or at least give us an insight to what is happening behind us. Let's face it, most of BA cabin crew don't give us the time of day. HC is actually trying to make a difference and I salute them for it. Don't shoot HC down just because one does agree with what they are saying.

[Carnage Matey!]

Maxy101 my flight crew figures come from BALPA (note that they are 1.8 days lower than the overall flight ops average - makes you wonder just how many days off sick the ground staff in flight ops take). The cabin crew figures come from BA management admittedly, but are the ones widely publicised on the "Vicious Circle /Virtual Circle" diagrams posted around various company locations!

Airbus girl. Our cabin crew only start on a basic of about £10K pa, which is where Heavy Crew gets his quaint belief that BA pay less than everyone else. Unfortunately the maths comes rather unstuck when trying to explain how people seem to take home at least £1200 per month on short haul after tax, without overtime or CAT payments (thats £35 quid to reduce your turnaround at LHR below 2 hours). Seems to be healthily more than most of our competitors are paying or they wouldn't be breaking down the doors to apply.

[normal_nigel]

The pay scales both old and new are on the links my posting on the previous page.

A CSD who joined in 1996 and has just made the gradeafter 8 years (about the minimum to get it for longhaul.) will get £32208 basic.

Add to that allowances (LH) and you can't fail to gross £50000 pa-at the very least. Thats for a chief steward at the lowest paypoint they could realistically be at.And BA think they can hit a 10% operating margin?

£50000 no qualifications needed. Look in the Times and see what you need to earn that. Nothing they can say can justify this.

Alsoas I said before unless its in their interests a large proportion of these people would rather go home after a phone call to BASSA than go to work. Its a shambles and it needs sorting out.

I suggest a recruitment drive for a waitlist followed by a big reduction in wages for many. If they don't like it sack em and replace with the new people.

NN

[Scottie]

Hey Normal_Nigel, maybe they could do that with the pilots too. *

After all most of you earn above the industry average :}

*Sarcasm for those that don't recognise it :\

[jerrystinger]

Talking of BA crews' pay and conditions and saying, "Its a shambles and it needs sorting out" simply takes us back to the beginning of this vicious circle. BA staff thrive on the logic that 'those over there are paid too much and should be sorted out, while us here are underpaid for what we do and should get more'.
I believe it can be fair to say that if a Chief Sandwich Dispenser (CSD) can be paid up to 50K for what is an unskilled job, then is not the entire workforce being overpaid!?

Spinning and spinning in circles??????!!!!

[normal_nigel]

I believe it can be fair to say that if a Chief Sandwich Dispenser (CSD) can be paid up to 50K for what is an unskilled job, then is not the entire workforce being overpaid!?

er sorry your logic is either too clever or non existent.

Cabin crew (certainly on higher grades) are grossly overpaid in BA. Anyone who disagrees with that is either blind or thick. £50000 for a steward who changes the videos and hands out landing cards is overpaid in any language.

BA pilots are paid a comprable salary to our major European competitors but work about 10% harder.** We were benchmarked.
In fact don't Ryanair pilots earn more than us for a comparable length of service? Certainly in the first 5 years or so I think they do?

Jerry

They could replace us if they could find 3500 type rated(5 different types) experienced pilots. Stewards they can get from anywhere and train in about 3 weeks.

**Source BALPA benchmarking group.

NN

[Da Dog]

Mate of mine who I learn't to fly with works for Ryan Air, last year he netted £18,000 more than me and flew 79 more hours................... good cash if you can get it.

Alright will concede I get a pension(or do I?) I get LOL and health care, but jesus think how much of a pension I could get for that extra £1500 per month!!:{ :{

[jerrystinger]

normal_nigel - "They could replace us if they could find 3500 type rated(5 different types) experienced pilots." Is this not what BA is steering towards, i.e cheap(er) replacements? And for those already on a contract isn't the aim to increase and improve productivity? Was this not the underlying reason for the recent pilot demonstrations in Luxembourg?

Believe me that the overall 'back office' and management attitude towards flight crews is 'work 'em harder, pay 'em less...'

[Well thats Me]

NN

What to say mate,50 K for a CSD bloody right thats too much ---

Up to 120K plus expenses flying a bus around Europe some would say thats excessive as well,its ok benchmarking if you pick the airlines to compare with,who says Air france pilots arnt overpaid to start with and while i cant support the CSDs pay there are only a few of them where as 1/2 the pilots are captains.
Who says theres an automatic right to benchmarking? you and i both know numerous airlines that would say " if you think Air France pay more P*** off there " --- Thats what BA told us engineering types by the way!

[Da Dog]

Well That’s Me, wrong yet again about pilot remuneration!

120K plus expenses, should read 100K plus expenses and that’s taken 24 years to achieve, most Captains on the "bus" fleet are PP9 to PP15 earning considerably less than my correct figure above.

Only a few CSD's........ Beg to differ, remember the top pay scale for those who joined pre 97 comes at just PP18 at last count there was well over 1200 with this role.

PS there are just over 1800 Captains

[normal_nigel]

ok

What do you think pilots should get paid? £20000, £30000pa? My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa.

He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you so don't be bitter about pilots pay just because you don't earn it.

ps I earned about £50000 less than your figures last year.

NN

[Well thats Me]

NN
Quote
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you

--- i will correct you there,i sign for the aircraft with $2 billion worth of liability every day,fact is i sign for it and could be up in the same court as you arguing the toss with your mate ---- so stand corrected.

Regards Pilots pay sorry your 50K down on the figure i quoted,just stay around you will get there,its just a case of waiting.

Your mate thats a barister is obviously smarter than me,hes obviously smarter than you and the training is a lot harder in the law profession thats why he gets paid more.

Regarding benchmarking - why didnt Air France / KLM etc say to their crews " BA pilots get paid less,we are benchmarking you with them - heres your pay cut / freeze" --- you know the reason!

NN - I am not bitter about your pay and thats a honest reply but you cant honestly knock any other group especially a minority group that are doing ok as well, BA pilots are well paid - Well done, enjoy it.

[normal_nigel]

,hes obviously smarter than you and the training is a lot harder in the law profession thats why he gets paid more.

Two facts which are complete bollocks. I have far better qualifications than him and law training is just time consuming. I don't begrudge him his money, I just think BA captains should earn about the same. Yes I am being serious.

Now answer my question. What do you think pilots should be paid? (a tube driver gets about £40000 pa I'm told).

Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.

NN

[Well thats Me]

NN
If you have the same of better qualifications than your mate then you are wasted as a BA pilot ( IMHO ),what should a Pilot for a major carrier get, disregarding market forces etc and for my 10p worth i would have said 80 - 90 K would be fair for a Captain and 2/3 that for a F/O,those figures would be after say 4 years not 24 and would be the same for a 747 captain to a A320.

Tube drivers actually get nearer 60K as they get hazard pay.

I guess it boils down to why does anyone get paid what they do,for yourselves its market forces NOT responsibility that dictate it - dont get me wrong here i think all the front line staff deserve lots more than the faceless suits that dictate our lives and dare i say bleed BA of the profit it could posibly make.

Let me return the question to you and say " Why do you think you deserve to be very very well paid? "

I have no gripe with your pay but being paid and treated as the low of the low ( i have a university degree as well ) i find it hard to accept the " we deserve better " argument from BA pilots.

quote
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.


True we affect safety but not our own personal safety,that is one of the reasons you are paid more than engineers.

[Scottie]

I just think BA captains should earn about the same. Yes I am being serious.

ROFLMAO I think you should be paid more :}

Seriously though it is never going to happen. Your barrister friends company makes a lot of money from legal work and the rewards are shared amongst a relatively small amount of workers, hence the large salary. Also I bet there are no shareholders (well there probably will be, equity partners).

BA has what, 35,000 employees now? So salaries have to be paid to a large workforce who are all fighting for their fair share. BA has shareholders who also need to be compensated for their investment. So it isn't ever going to happen that you're paid the same as your barrister friend. Nice dream though.

Best get yourself to law school quick! ;)

[Jet II]

NN,

It was only a couple of postings ago that you were complaining that plate slingers get 50K - now youre saying that BA pilots should be on a quarter of a million plus!

Nice to see that you haven't lost your sense of humour whilst working for BA:D

[jerrystinger]

"My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa."

Your mate is earning that amount of money because he is not driving (air)buses.....maybe you've chauffeured him around a few times while he sits in 1A (not as a staff pax, either!)!?

[ZQA297/30]

I attach a link that will give an idea of why airline employees are under stress in the T&C dept.

http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf

From this, the constant downward pressure on airfares is quite clear, and will continue unless and until ALL airline employees are willing to band together to stop the decline.
Do I see any pigs flying?

Better work on part timing as pilots for the fun, (line shares?), and get some other more lucrative income source to prop up whats left of your standard of living.

(Tongue only partly in cheek)

[ZQA297/30]

This post is not aimed at pilots,they know what I am talking about. Please forgive the broad generalisations.


I have heard this "glorified busdriver" epithet for 40 years now. It is either intellectual dishonesty or terminal ignorance.

Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain". You will not be permitted to jump into the left seat of any reputable air carrier's aircraft, no matter how clever you are.
You will now start to learn the skills required to captain a large aircraft.

You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.

In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in groundschool for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that that the regulatory bodies put out.

Finally you heave a sigh of relief and settle into your hard earned left seat. Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.

You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.

If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.

Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.

So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temption to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know thats true.

Busdrivers indeed, Bah Humbug!

[Human Factor]

ZQA,

Don't suppose you could email that to our management? :*

[Well thats Me]

ZQA297/30
Well you obviously think you deserve to be well paid and so do i to a point,what i will say though and so will lots of other people in the general public plus other groups within BA is what defines well paid? through all your problems what makes your job different from other jobs that get paid far less?.

This is not a dig just a honest reply to your comments.

1/ Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain".

....................... I have seen BA captains that are very young,i would go as far as to say mid twenties for some ..... again not a dig but if your argument held true there would be a minimum age to be a commander of say 40 but there isn't.I believe the pass rate for the BA command courses is somewhere about 85 - 90%,sure everyone who gets the option is gunning fully for it but its not quite the 15% best players only like the royal marine commandos now is it?


2/ You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.


..................... Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on.

3/ In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in ground school for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out.


......................... Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game.
............................6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this do dentists keep log books on the number of fillings they do,after 10000 trouble free fillings they are suitable to be head dentist?
............................there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth.

............................countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !

.............................the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out. ---- tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of books in the hope i can keep the JAA happy and continue to do what i do daily !

...............................There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work.

4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.

............................... Just like me then !

5/ You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.

.............................. Partially have to concede you this one alone,what it might mean though is you are gone where as i would be in the Old Bailey with it on my conscience for the rest of my life,debatable who gets the better deal there !

6/ If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.


................................ This is not that extraordinary,the reams and reams of engineering procedures must match the flight crew ones,the managers are just as nasty ( we have just had a guy sacked over a technical issue ),apart from the different countries comment the requirements for us to you are very similar,i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc.

7/ Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.

............................ you need to look harder,there are many others.

8/ So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temptation to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know that's true.



................................ true and nobody certainly not me is arguing,its a professional job and you are treated as professional,what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less.

[jerrystinger]

Well that's me - I applaud your posting as it is an accurate summary of reality! ZQA's idea that society referring to him as a glorified bus driver constitutes 'terminal ignorance' is the most convenient emergency exit for a reality that the individual cannot accept!

[ZQA297/30]

1. ............... "but if your argument held true there would be a minimum age to be a commander of say 40 but there isn't."

There is no age requirement in most airlines, only an experience requirement in flying hours. I am not familiar with BA, but have seen 2,500 hrs for T/Prop, and at least 5,000 for jet, sometimes more for heavies, elsewhere. Maybe I am out of date? Do BA put Capts in the left seat with significantly less?
There is no shortcut to the hours, so unless you can clock up the legal yearly max on the hours, or have had much previous flying experience elsewhere, it is going to be at least 6 years, more realistically 8 to 10 years, assuming rapid expansion and no seniority delays.
If your BA skipper joined at 18 he might be in line by 24 to 26 but I would be surprised if that was the norm for large jet aircraft, even at BA.

2. ....................." Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on."

I was not aware that there was a legal requirement for the above named to demonstrate in actual or simulated conditions their full knowledge of all systems and procedures, both normal and emergency, on a six monthly basis. Do they do it in real life or in simulators?

3. ..................."Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game."

No, in most reputable airlines it is not just a waiting game, you have to have had a track record of satisfactory prior checks, plus the qualifying hours, plus be able to pass the upgrade check. I doubt BAs procedure is significantly at variance with this principle.

..................."6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this "

Not really, quite common in the industry.

............."there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth"

and your point is?

............."countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !"

I presume you agree on this then? Do your train drivers nurses firemen etc experience this ?

....."tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of ..."

Traindrivers, Nurses, Firemen, Doctors? I concede Lawyers.

........."16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work."

Really? are Doctors medically examined each 6 months and barred from practicing if a relatively minor health problem is picked up?

4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.

............................... "Just like me then !"

Yes, just like you, but the pilot is doing several hundred knots, is on his own, and has to make the final decision under time constraints, none of which apply to you. It is just a bit different you must admit.

5. No comment.

6........"i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc."

The main difference is that they can take their time and dig out the books and take a look to be sure. They are not swanning through the sky at several hundred knots and running out of fuel and options concurrently.

7........"you need to look harder,there are many others.

There may well be, would you care to suggest where I might look.

8......"what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less".

You may be right there, but on the other hand there are a lot of jobs that are "less professional" or "not professional at all" that pay more.
:-) :-)

[Notso Fantastic]

Chaps, does discussion of this on an open forum really achieve anything? It gives the opportunity for a lot of loudmouths to have fun at others expense. Here we have an 'Engineer' winding you up. I really think it is counter productive BA people discussing this issue here with some of the frustrated 'experts' here who like to get their bit of abuse against BA in.

Let it go..........

[ZQA297/30]

NSF, I am not BA by any stretch of the imagination, but I support their cause, and I apologise for rising to the bait jiggled by the "Engineer".