Bad week for helicopters in Bay of Plenty NZ

[Heliport]

Chopper Engine Centre Of Investigation
21/05/2004 11:39 AM
NewstalkZB

Aviation safety investigators say they remain closely focused on the engine of the helicopter involved in a fatal crash last weekend.
Tauranga freelance cameraman Peter Harris died in the crash near Te Puke.
The pilot survived.
Civil Aviation investigator Tom McCready says they are preparing to have the engine stripped down.
Mr McCready has rejected reports that there is not much to recover from the burned out crash scene. He says they gathered a lot of information.


New Zealand Herald report Pair survive copter crash

Two Opotiki men on a deer hunting expedition escaped unhurt from their crashed helicopter in the rugged Raukumara Forest Park.

Alex Loughlin and Duncan Hustler shorted the battery from the wrecked Central Helicopters Robinson R22 to start a fire to keep them warm overnight and cooked venison from a deer shot earlier.

Guy Beange, pilot of the Taupo-based Lion Foundation rescue helicopter, picked up the pair at first light yesterday.

He said they were "shaken but not stirred".

"They are resourceful people. That is their playground."

He said the men, both experienced pilots and hunters with young families, were lucky to come away without a scratch.

Mr Loughlin and Mr Hustler, who did not want to talk about their escape, had left Opotiki on Monday for an evening hunt in the Motu River headwaters north-east of the town.

An hour or so into the trip, the helicopter was hovering above the side of a steep hill for the shooter, believed to be Mr Hustler, to jump out.

Apparently, when he lifted the seat to grab the strops for retrieving the shot game, the movement restricted the function of the joystick.

When he jumped, the chopper veered to the right and into a tree. The pilot was able to climb from the wreckage on to a high, rocky slip.

Mr Loughlin's wife raised the alarm shortly before 7pm when the pair did not return home on time.

About an hour later the two men manually activated the locator beacon, which had not gone off on impact.

The Lion Foundation rescue helicopter tracked the beacon and a flashing torch light from the stranded hunters led it to the remote crash site about 10.30 pm.

Mr Beange said it was rough country, pitch dark and cloudy and the rescuers had to give up until morning.

"We were able to sneak down among the trees far enough for them to clamber up on to the skid without using the winch," said Mr Beange.

He said Mr Loughlin and Mr Hustler did not have a lot to say on the way back to their Opotiki base.

"Those sort of people don't talk a hell of a lot."

Relieved family and friends were waiting for their return and a "huge network" of people had been ready to go and search on foot for the pair.

"It's very rugged country. You could spend days and days and still not find someone," Mr Beange said.

Clint McGee, operations manager for Opotiki's Central Helicopters, said Mr Loughlin and Mr Hustler were "fit and well but still shellshocked".

[Grainger]

Second pair sound very lucky to get away so lightly.

Is it just me, or does hovering an R22 while your passenger jumps out seem like not the brightest idea in the book ? Must be a helluva CG shift - no wonder it "veered to the right" :eek:

[Steve76]

Alex is no beginner pilot.

The Motu is his stomping ground and in such harsh country an offlevel hover exit or hoping out/into a tree to gain access to the ground is no big deal.

Please remember not all the world is nice rolling english farmland.

This pilot has more time in R22 than all the pilots on this forum. He was there when the concept of animal recovery was voiced. He has flown in many countries around the world and one of the more interesting stories he told me was of reindeer muster in Alaska.

Sounds like the shooter had a brain fart and the stupid flip up seat of the Robbie forced the cyclic forward.

A distinct case of "$hit happens...." :(

Glad to hear that NZ did not lose another one of its experienced pilots. They are getting few and far between.....

Interestingly, the Motu River was the first place in NZ that a helo crashed or made an emergency landing. It was a Bell 47 and when they returned to fix it the machine had been claimed by the Motu. They never found a thing.

I looked for parts everytime I rafted down there.......:E

[Autorotate]

Hell two accidents in a week, thats nothing. In the old venison recovery days it was common for the accident rate to be around five a week.

NZ used to be Hughes Helicopters best customer during the hey days. If I remember correctly in one month alone, 42 helicopters were shipped to NZ and by the end of the month only 18 were still in one piece.

Ned

[Oogle]

Why is it that some people try this stuff.

The differences in hovering a Robbo solo as opposed to dual are huge.

I myself don't care if he has done it a million times before, to me it seems stupid.

Typical Kiwis sticking up for one of their countrymen.

And Autorotate, bringing up the good ol' days when machines used to be lost at a great rate of knots is nothing to chuckle about. I'm sure some of your mates are not with us any more.

Steve76 - #@it shouldn't happen.

:(

[Autorotate]

Oogle,

Get a life. Kiwis stick up for kiwis, aussies stick up for aussies, and pommes stick up for pommes, so what. I personally will stick up for anyone, black, white, yellow or blue, if I believe what they did is right. In this case I made no comment. Maybe he did the wrong thing, **** happens, he made a mistake, or are you perfect and dont make mistakes. If you have a problem with kiwis sticking up for kiwis then bugger off as there are a lot of kiwis and aussies here.

My comments about the old days is not intended as a laughing matter, The amount of friends I have lost in this industry, in those days, would fill a book. Take as its written, stating a fact.

Autorotate.

[Oogle]

Autorotate

There is that comment again - "**** happens".

Not an excuse in my eyes.

If that particular operator has specific procedures in place and these procedures have been approved by the regulatory authority (your CAA equivalent) then I take it all back.

If they don't then live with the consequences.

By the way - leave the poor little deer alone!!

[Steve76]

Oogle (WTF? does that mean)

Be a man and tell us what area of Helicopter operations you specialise in. No hiding behind your 2 posts and be honest.

When you are done with that. Write an SOP for a hover exit into a tree and post it for us will you?

The SOP's, you obviously live by, are created to regulate and legislate commonsence in individuals not gifted with such logical thought processes.
They work wonders for inexperienced or incapable pilots who struggle to make decisions based on lack of experience or lack of ability. Often they make it easier to avoid responsibility for ones lack of competence in command decision making.

You cannot legislate commonsence nor can you create rules for every little function of helicopter operations. It is a fluid and dynamic environment. Not every pilot operates under the structure and daily repeditiveness of your type of flying (assuming you actually have a job...)

Well done for showing your lack of "bush" experience and knowledge of feral pest problems in the most unique and beautiful country on the planet:rolleyes:

Kia Kaha, aussie-aussie-aussie and God save the Queen.

Additionally:

If you can't hover a robbie and do a hover entry and exit, you are in the wrong business or your school is not training you correctly.

Take a hint and head back into the IT industry before you hurt yourself. Not aimed at you Grainger, just a general comment.

[Oogle]

Steve76

Digressing away from the point for a moment. Have flown R22, R44, AS350, AS355, Bell 412 and AS365 - 6500 hours total time. All different parts of the industry. OK with you?

Now, back to the point. SOP's are written for ALL pilots based on experience. Procedures to be followed by all pilots. This company may or may not have these procedures in place and if they do - go your hardest.

I would imagine your friend has buckets of experience but try jumping out of something bigger than a R22 (something with more stability). Done a fair bit of it myself.

I understand you wanting to stand up for your mate but sometimes people just stuff up.

Good to see you sticking up for the homeland even though you aren't there!!

[Nigel Osborn]

Ned & Steve

You mustn't be so sensitive to Kiwi bashing!!!

Your point about the accident rate in the past is very true. In 1985 I was flying a 212 in PNG on a seismic contract and was assisted by a Kiwi flying a 206. He had a book filled with excellent photos and life stories about the helicopter deer shooting in NZ. Most of the helicopters were riddled with bullet holes, both from ground fire by their opposition as well as from inside their own helicopter.
Apparently each pilot was an ace and could do anything with a helicopter. The point that puzzled me was that nearly everyone of these aces was either dead or crippled from helicopter accidents. I suggested it seemed strange that these aces had a life exspectancy of around 2 years but he thought that was reasonable.
During the 12 weeks he worked with us, the senior pilot told him numerous times about unnecessary low flying and about the complaints we had received from the customer. We then had him replaced as he knew best. 3 months later he was killed flying into wires.
The point I and I think OOgle are trying to make is that it is just too easy to have a serious accident without deliberately doing something that is known to be dangerous without a good reason.
i.e. fire bombing, etc.:(

[Autorotate]

Nigel - Fair comment but hey Kiwis have to stick up for each other, like Aussies do, especially when we beat you at the rugby :}

The point I am trying to make is that back in those days machine and pilot didnt have a long life expectancy but over the past few years the industry here in kiwiland has become a lot more professional. Yes there are a lot of those pilots who are not there anymore and are being replaced by pilots who have undertaken "professional" flight training courses, rather than the old she'll be right I can fly anything attitude from the old days.

Back then there wasnt any such thing as a professional pilots course, just jump in a helo, start it and if you could fly it, great, off we go hunting (probably a bit too simplistic here). same as the aussie "kick her in the guts and off we go" type attitude. That sort of attitude was fine in those days but the industry, and more importantly the public, has come to expect, and demand, more from a helicopter pilot these days. The pilot has to be a tour guide, manager, diplomat etc, oh and also a pilot as well.

Saying that there are still some of the newer pilots, and this is meant to pilots all over the world, that think their balls are bigger than their brains, and will do whatever they have to to get the job done. Sometimes it works, other times it doesnt and the end result is a wrecked machine, dead or injured person, and more bad publicity. Can you change that in a person, from my experience, NO, its instilled in them during their training, or lack of it.

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

[Steve76]

Must be my turn to bat Ned....:)

Nobody here is defending the often insane way some NZ pilots have flown. Least of all myself.

Nigel,
Could you please expand upon this comment:
"The point I and I think Oogle are trying to make is that it is just too easy to have a serious accident without deliberately doing something that is known to be dangerous without a good reason."
...regarding Firebombing....? I don't understand.
Surely you must concede that it is a serious case of the "pot calling the kettle black" to bring up the failings of one Kiwi pilot in PNG considering the atrocious attrition of machines and men in the Mustering game.
Plenty of those pilots left the outback and went to PNG as well.
Most fixed wing pilots killed while I lived in PNG were Australians pushing the WX, flying homemade IFR and flying drunk.

The noticeable difference today is that the Kiwi industry has the occasional venison accident while the aussie musterers continue to kill men and machines in significant numbers.

Touché?

Oogle:

We Antipodeans do get a little peeved at wally's from the Northern Hemisphere making judgements about persons or events that have occurred oceans away from their cookie cutter housing blocks in middle class mother England.

The inference that this is a "cowboy" act is just ridiculous. It is just an operational risk taken while doing venison recovery.
Hands up who here has undertaken wild animal recovery? ...nobody?
Then WTF would we all know??

Take a look at some of the photos of the Mil 8 accident in Yemen (posted by imabell) and you have the same issue as the R22 accident. Why don't you head off over there and lay down your high and mighty opinion to that bloke and inform him that the Mil is completely unsuitable for that work?

[MD900 Explorer]

Oogle

Maybe you should get a job with Greenpeace, and let the guys who want to go Deer hunting do it in peace. Maybe the world has a right to free passage of speach and people are allowed to hunt deer too. If it upsets you. DONT READ THE THREAD!! :confused:

Deer can be contrived as a pest and hunting them is a skill just as much as flying a helicopter is one too. Why dont you wind your neck in and let people in the southern hemisphere do what is natural to them, instead of giving out a macho, ignorant image. I dont care if you have 35,000 Hrs. The fact that you have 6,500 hrs should indicate to me that you are level headed and understand where you F****d up, instead of being an arse about it. GROW UP PLease :{

Pilots down there in the the Southern Hemisphere do a great job (you only need to go back through the threads for the BK-117 female pilot who got smashed with a tree and landed with one skid after hovering for an hour with a broken arm...etc).

Why are you so intent on trying to place fault on others in the same industry, because if this how you are in person then you certainly would fail the MCC or CRM in every way. As for being a 6500 hrs pilot, maybe you have your head way too far up your arse eh? Dangerous in my opinion, but then again i am a nobody here, so go figure? :E

Steve 76 & Autorotate

Top stance and i am behind you all the way on this :ok:

Regards

MD :sad:

[Helisurfer]

MD 900,

Just tried a quick search for the thread about the chick flying the BK but unable to find anything. How about a heads up for where I might find it, sounds like a good story.

Thanx Helisurfer.

P.S. I dont want to get involved in an arguement about this topic but after spending a fair bit of time in a 22 lately I dont think I would like to try hovering while some bloke jumped onto the skid. Sounds like asking for trouble if you ask me.

[moosp]

No Helisurfer it is not "...asking for trouble..." to load and unload an R22 in the hover. It is a standard operating procedure for certain uses of the helicopter.

Remember when hovering seemed impossible? Then you got it. Remember when slope landings seemed difficult? Then you got it.

If you are taught how to do something properly it can be done by most moderately skilled pilots, and loading in the hover is no different.

If we keep criticising our own industry we'll get comments like, "operating with slung loads is asking for trouble, if you ask me..."

:uhoh:

[Helisurfer]

Moosp,

I agree with you, loading and unloading in the hover is quite a standard operation and can be performed quite safely with the right training and precautions. Most hover exit training I have seen involves stepping onto the skid then exiting between the skid and airframe to reduce the lateral moment out from the COG, not jumping onto or off the skid as reported in the original post.

I have seen the effect of skydivers jumping out of a much larger machine and it can get quite hairy for a few seconds if they really kick off. Now I don't know that I would realy like to try that in an R22 so close to the ground.

I have just reread the post and it sounds like the initial cause of the problem was the seat jamming the cyclic which may have ment the shooter had no choose but to jump.

All I am saying is if the standard is jump or leap from an R22 while close to the ground, dont be surprised when something goes wrong.

[WLM]

Question: was the shooter standing outside on the skid when he flipped the seat up? Steve76 you have not changed Couz...where are you now?:D

[Steve76]

WLM: sorry to be a stranger brus. Just been run off my feet. Same ol Same ol.... Mail me at home for a chat.

As for this topic...

The fact is that if you jump off anything it will react the same way. Doesn't matter if it is a 412 or a R22. The skydivers are a good example. You just have to be gentle

If the seat had jammed the cyclic and I was on the outside I would probably jump too. WLM, I assumed he was on the skid
too.

Thankyou Moosp for a lot of commonsence.

If you can't do a hover exit from an R22? Find a new job...

[Oogle]

Garbage!!

There are monstrous differences between stepping out of a R22 and a B412.

Skydivers are a totally different kettle of fish. You have a couple of thousand feet up your sleeve. Done it myself in a R22.

Steve76

You mentioned to me on an earlier post that my flying school should have taught me an exit from the hover.

My question to you is: Show me a flying school that teaches this procedure? Not from a B206 or AS350 - but a R22.

You asked me to write an SOP for this. How does this sound:

"The student must be up to the solo portion of his flight training before this manoeuvre is attempted as the instructor will not be present on board the aircraft on completion".

Also, can you tell me how they were intending to get the deer out of the area? I would assume that the animal is worth some money. Please tell me they weren't going to sling load the animal out in the R22 with 2 people on board.

MD900:

The "leave the poor little deer alone" comment was a joke - get over it. If you want to continue with the personal slangs feel free if it makes you feel better. You must be a Kiwi as well?!?

Stick to the point: This thread is about STEPPING OUT OF AN R22. Not the BK117 accident or any other. Don't lose the focus

[EMS K-MAX]

Sounds like you really know your stuff. 6500hrs u the man! worked in all differnt parts of the industry. u are awsome. how ever i find "all diffrent parts of the industry" a very vague answer. Hovering a R22 while someone does a hovering exit is not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination. but it has been done 1000s of times succesfully and im sure the pilot knew the risks involved.
Every type of helicopter operation has some kind of risk and some more risk than others. If you had done 6500hrs worth of scenics then sling loading might seem like an unnecessary risk. fact of the matter is there are often these risks in flying. and some aerial work is more dangerous than others. im sure the pilot was aware of the risks assocciated with a hovering exit and was willing to accept them. unfortuantly something went wrong and he had an accident. im sure he learnt from it.
You might not be willing to fly a 22 while someone does a hovering exit, thats fine. but he was
so f*$k off and go fly scenics or take the even safer option of staying home on the internet and telling pilots what they should and should not do with helicopters.

[helibiz]

I asked TimTucker once whether or not people on skids was a good idea or not and he thought NOT the Robi skid is stressed in such a way to give resistance in a hard landing. In a hover they just hang there, any weight on them stresses them in the opposite way to there design. If guys do it well great but personnally I wouldn't (2,500 tt Robi mustering/shooting) Also if it was done close to the ground and the skid with heavy boot attached touched the ground with all that weight outside of CG it would be a great set up for dynamic rollover. A 500 Yep no worries, Robi I think it is a stupid practice.

[helmet fire]

Gee its a bit heated!
I thought the accident was caused by the seat cushion - not the hover exit.

Helisurfer: I had not previously come across the hover exit you describe other than a picture posted by the B206L rescue machine in Victoria. I would be intrested in your thoughts as to why you would step down in between the skid and the aircraft body. You say it:
involves stepping onto the skid then exiting between the skid and airframe to reduce the lateral moment out from the COG

I cannot work out how it would alter the CofG at all. The lateral moment remains the same regardless of the direction of stepping. If you step away from the helicopter, you are in a position to move clear, if you step in between the body and the skid you have to either duck under the skid to move clear, or wait under the belly of the aircraft - neither would be the safest option. How do you exit three or four people in under the belly?

[PIC]

The guys who do this all the time generally do not stand on the skid of a 22 for a hover entry/exit. The technique on entry is to step straight on to the floor in order to have your weight as close to the centreline as possible and use a handhold preferably also in the centre to pull yourself in with as smooth a transfer of weight as possible. You do not stand on the skid of a 22 as even in the hover this could cause dynamic rollover - apart from the other good structural reasons already mentioned.

I should point out that I havn't done this myself in a 22, but have in 300's which are slighhtly more forgiving.

[Oogle]

All the Kiwis amongst you somehow think that the chap who did this manoeuvre is somehow in the right. A personal friend, colleague, etc does not make him somewhat immune from critisism.

I have heard "....**** happens"
I have heard "....bad luck"
I have heard "..he just f****d up"
I have heard "...something went wrong".

Sorry lads, I just think it is a stupid manoeuvre to try in a R22.

EMS K-MAX:

Telling me to "F*** off" will not change my mind - just goes to show the level yours is at.

[Helisurfer]

Helmet Fire,
your right, it is getting a bit heated. A bit sad really if we cant have a discussion without getting into this cheap trashing of each other.

Anyway, to your question about the exit between the skid. I haven't done this myself and only assumed it was for CofG reasons, although as you say, steeping one side or the other is not going to make a great difference. Perhaps Capt. Hollywood or The Coyote could shed a bit of light on it for us?

[EMS K-MAX]

you said it your self oogle "sometimes people stuff up".
There is an eliment of risk in every type of flying. Just cause you would not be willing to do a hovering exit in a R22 does not make it stupid.
The fact that you think that makes me think that you are a numb nutted c*^nt. No one is making you hover an R22 while someone does a hovering exit. thats fine. and if someone asks you to do this you are perfectly in your rights to say no. Some pilots will refuse to get in an R22 and chase cattle. Many are not willing to accept that risk either. And fair enough.
Just because you fly AS350s and AS365s doesnt mean you are all that. People take diffrent paths within the helicopter industry, some of which require more nerve and bigger balls. Balls that you could only dream of replacing those tiny penuts of yours.

[ground effect]

hey kmax check you private messages

[rotaryman]

Different strokes for Different Folks!

I hear the Kiwi's are really Pisssed off LOL YEA!!



The price of lamb has gone up $10 per hour LMFAO

[Hughesy]

Hey rotaryman, just wait for the Tri-nations and we will see who is laughing then :E :ok:
Good luck for beating those Poms though.
:cool:

[Oogle]

I agree gents. Too much text beating happening.

A little too sensitive for some and obviously if you try to offer a comment or logic the four letter words start coming out.

Pretty sad really. There are icons for your expletives - use them!!

By the way, hope I don't catch up when I return back to Irian Jaya next week. Seen some things there that I would like to comment on but won't. We all have our war stories.



;)