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Brenoch
19th May 2004, 15:08
I just heard that one of Thompsonfly's 737s suffered a flapstrike on landing. I don't know where or any further details than that. Can someone shed some light on this?

Regs

expedite_climb
19th May 2004, 15:12
Flapstrike ? Whats one of those ? New to me.

If you perhaps mean a birdstrike on one of the flaps then it probably did. So what ? Happens every day all over the country!

Brenoch
19th May 2004, 15:15
With a certain nose up attitude and a certain degree of bank the TE Flaps will make contact with the runway before the enginecowling does...

UNEASY
19th May 2004, 16:15
Are you saying that on this ocassion, next in line for runway contact is engine cowling?:confused:
What did they do with the landing gear?

Brenoch
19th May 2004, 17:23
Sorry for being unclear, one of the maingears is obviously firmly on the ground in an instance like this... :ouch:

If you have a Boeing FCTM for the 737 available you'll find on page 4.58 a diagram showing the pitch-angle versus roll angle at which the Flap Track Fairing and engine nacelle respectively will make ground contact.

expedite_climb
19th May 2004, 17:55
Brenoch,


Ah I see. For those of us who dont have a 737 FCTM could you give us an idea of what kind of pitch / roll angles are required ?

click
19th May 2004, 18:00
We had the same thing a little while back. A little behind the power curve, a bit of unstabilized touchy feely near the ground and ooops there goes the fairing. :uhoh:

Notso Fantastic
19th May 2004, 18:25
I seem to remember about 11 degrees roll with one main gear compressed will scrape a flap fairing.

twostroke
19th May 2004, 18:37
Is this meant to have happened at coventry today? if so i'll pop down and see what I can see...

Brenoch
19th May 2004, 23:02
As I said, I only just heard about it and I don't know when or where.. I was hoping someone would be able to share some info about this, if it infact has occured. The person who told me said the 737 is grounded at the moment and apparently also the skipper who planted it...

Memory serves you well Notso..

At about 7 degrees nose up and 11 degrees worth of bank the trailing edge flap fairing will make ground contact.. Also on the new 737 stretched versions (800/900) the LE slats will also make ground contact...

Frosty Hoar
20th May 2004, 10:43
Just an ingested bird and boroscope inspection,perhaps your source meant the bird had a flapstrike when it tried to swallow the CFM.

Incidentally how can you strike the LE slats with NLG extended?

spud
20th May 2004, 13:16
But did they have one or didn't they?

hobie
20th May 2004, 16:23
spud ..... the problem is that 98% of replies revolve around the suggestion that technically, what is being questioned, could not happen !!!!

after a while, and often many post, a few gen guys post the info that technically the type of incident could happen ...... but by that stage everyone has forgotten what the original question was !!!!

....so we never get to know the answer !!!! :(

Notso Fantastic
20th May 2004, 17:54
Are we absolutely sure this 'incident' happened at all? Out of respect for Thomsonfly's good reputation and the reputation of their crews, unless confirmation can be given that the incident did occur, we stop dissecting it!

Brenoch
20th May 2004, 19:18
Well, that was the point from the very beginning. I was wondering if it infact has occured.
And if so, if anyone has information regarding when and where...

Cheers

Notso Fantastic
20th May 2004, 20:39
Well you raised it, so why not illuminate us with where you got this 'nugget'. Like another thread, it really seems to be a grand waste of time and attention doesn't it? So let's put up or shut up?

Brenoch
20th May 2004, 21:07
Well, it is rumours and news isn't it. I heard it from a friend of mine who is with Brits. He told me this and that was all he knew.
Stupid me let the question fly on Pprune to see if anyone else had heard it.

Where you place your attention is entirely up to you dear Sir, I'm terribly sorry if you managed to waste some of your precious time reading through this thread.
May I recommend some other reading containing facts only, either way I think you are in the wrong place mate...

Cheers

Galil
20th May 2004, 21:23
hobie... Bravo!

As a new member I find that most people post just for the sake of arguing. This is a rumour forum after all and not a technical one.

I've seen members tell other members they should not post unless they are 100% sure of their rumour. Can a rumour be 100% positively undoubtedly correct? I wonder.

Ex Oggie
20th May 2004, 23:35
I find that most people post just for the sake of arguing.

Oh no we don't! :ok:

Galil
21st May 2004, 03:57
A Flap strike? Hmmm…what version of 737 is it? What colour is it (very important!)? Where the flaps fully extended? Are you sure? How qualified are the pilots? Did they have to drive more than 2 hours to get to work that day? How far away was the eye witness? Is the witness a pilot, ‘cause if not why would he know what a flap is?! When was the flap in question last inspected? Were the mechanics fully qualified and certified?
Was it a Port or Starboard flap?

Only once ALL of these questions are answered may someone respond to the RUMOUR itself and provide curious readers feedback. However, if you do dare reply, you better have a PHD in rumourology.

Happy reading to all. ;)

Approach_plate
21st May 2004, 08:45
Are you 100% on those questions???

A-FLOOR
21st May 2004, 09:03
I'm still doing my thesis on rumourology, but this picture came to mind when I read the topic... just tought I'd share it with you:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/290100/L/

I believe this constitutes a NEAR-flapstrike. :ok:

Notso Fantastic
21st May 2004, 09:46
How can you possibly put up a picture like this without specifying which side the wind was from? Honestly, you 'civilians' leave out the most basic information.
In the meantime, this whole thread is the result of a 'porkie'..........

A-FLOOR
21st May 2004, 10:25
It DOESN'T MATTER where the wind was coming from.

I posted it to illustrate to the people having a hard time imagining a 737 having a flap strike, what it actually IS.

Plus, the "you civilians" comment doesn't exactly help pilot/non-pilot relations now does it? :rolleyes:

And furthermore, do you really think I would "leave out the most basic information" when I didn't even have it in the first place? If I would have known where the bloody wind was coming from I would have posted it along with the link, but I didn't, so there.

Oshkosh George
21st May 2004, 10:31
I think Notso's post was intended to be VERY tongue in cheek!

Well,I thought it was funny!

A-FLOOR
21st May 2004, 10:34
So much for being serious :{ :D

Frosty Hoar
21st May 2004, 13:17
Im curious to know why all you chaps out their are so keen to know whether or not one of our 735s scraped a flap or not - as far as I know the aircraft had a bird through the engine-I was not working at the time and cannot be bothered to ask the engineers if they can confirm this rumour,and perhaps call the captain and ask him what happened,are you grounded etc.....?

Brenoch I think you are well meaning but the manner of your posting is irksome to say the least as there is nothing of substance to it.

Let me illustrate the kind of post that in this vein that could be worthy of discussion...

737 undershoots at cvt,scrapes pod and the on runway and looses te flaps,bursting main gear tyres in the process as witnessed by.....

And here we have

My mate from brits think thomson fly had a flapstrike.....


All three aircraft flew without delay the day after this incident so the kind of rectification required by a serious flapstrikewould not have been possible. Why all the excitement-this is a professional pilots rumour network,if you are gonna post this kind of rumour then do the it on the spotters forum (they could have told you that all the aircraft where operational) or somewhere else where it may merit discussion.

Galil
21st May 2004, 19:56
Dear Frosty Hoar

I am sorry we are not in the same league of Professionalism you are in.
this is a professional pilots rumour network
Yes the website’s title has the word professional in it but it also has the word rumour!
Are you going to tell us what constitutes or is worthy of the title rumour? Are only rumours that meet your standard of professionalism allowed?
Why all the excitement
Perhaps when you fly you have such silly and mundane accidents as flap strikes every day but for the rest of us they are far and in between.
Let me illustrate the kind of post that
I guess I just missed the thread where you offer the course ‘constructive English for writers 101’. Please feel free to tell me how I should have worded this post to meet your professional attitude. If you do not like what you read and think it is silly, stop reading it! By offering your silly remarks, you yourself are turning this thread into nothing. Next time, perhaps the HUMOUR forum would be more appropriate.

Good day. :ugh:

Frosty Hoar
23rd May 2004, 00:32
Dear Galil......

My response to the original posting (regarding engine ingested bird) was to the best of my knowledge factual,my second posting was a product of exasperation as I had already answered the question in hand.

I will attempt to answer your questions....

I am sorry we are not in the same league of Professionalism you are in.

Apology accepted.


Are you going to tell us what constitutes or is worthy of the title rumour?

No, I did that in my last post.



Perhaps when you fly you have such silly and mundane accidents as flap strikes every day but for the rest of us they are far and in between.

No I dont, and yes these incidents are few and far between and in this case the incident in question did not happen anyway.

I guess I just missed the thread where you offer the course ‘constructive English for writers 101’. Please feel free to tell me how I should have worded this post to meet your professional attitude. If you do not like what you read and think it is silly, stop reading it! By offering your silly remarks, you yourself are turning this thread into nothing. Next time, perhaps the HUMOUR forum would be more appropriate.

I was criticising the content of the post and not the grammar,I cannot tell you how to word your own posts,for this I would need a


PHD in rumourology.

best regards FH.

Galil
23rd May 2004, 01:55
Now you've done it...http://www.gifworks.com/pablo_platypus_prize_fighting_mode_sm_wht.gif

Courtman
23rd May 2004, 08:41
There was a minor flapstrike, although it didn't cause any delays. There was a runway inspection (routine) immediately after the landing which found a few bits of the flap fairing at the touchdown point. Crew were notified, aircraft checked but damage well within limits and aircraft operated next sector on schedule.

Hope this clears it up....

Galil
23rd May 2004, 09:17
Thank you Courtman; I’m glad I will not need my boxing Platypus to defend this thread any more. Cheers to all...http://images.animfactory.com/images/cheerleader.gif

thoma-hawk
23rd May 2004, 09:31
.......................So what about the birdstrike?

Where does this fit-in?

:confused:

twostroke
23rd May 2004, 22:04
a minor flapstrike
very minor airprox
Just an ingested bird and boroscope inspection
a few bits of the flap fairing at the touchdown point
Coventry Airport Security - A World Gone Mad??
A routine week at Coventry Airport?

twostroke
24th May 2004, 07:41
Courtman - Any particular reason for the flapstrike incident given? I dont remember strong/variable winds or anything? Surely not just lack of pilot skill? [....prepares to be flamed....]

hobie
24th May 2004, 11:29
I suspect that with a bit of effort someone could get a Degree Thesis out of this thread .....

Brenoch ..... very pleased that you finally got your question answered ....

SLFguy
24th May 2004, 12:21
Wife had a flapstrike last week...but now i've agreed to do the lawn and she's called it off.

Brenoch
24th May 2004, 13:31
Thanks plenty Courtman..

Finally the question was answered..

Cheers

robnewman
20th Jul 2004, 09:55
i witnessed this incident at coventry. i was duty observer on the British Transport Police Air Support Unit at the time, and was at the far end of runway 23 with clear view of the approaching aircraft. please excuse any lack of technical knowledge due to me not being a pilot, but this is what i saw.

737 was on finals to runway 23. at approx 150 feet the pilot increased thrust quite significantly ... engine noise cannot usually be heard from the far end of the airfield. as the aircraft was about 50 feet above the runway the starboard wing dropped by about 30 degrees. the pilot just managed to recover and made a very heavey touchdown on the main starboard gear. then bounced onto the left gear, before bouncing back onto both main gear. the pilot then made an incredibly short roll-out, coming to a halt only just past the Echo taxiway to the south apron. aircraft then taxied normally to the stand.

having spoken to the ASU pilot, who was conincidentally at the other end of the runway on the day in question, he states that the starboard wing did indeed scrap the grass on the right hand edge of R23 and left a nice furrow.

hope this helps all of you trying to find out about this incident.

probably best you don't tell the local residents ... they seem to have a big problem with thompsonfly operating their big, noisey, polluting 737-400s and this will just upset them more. strange they don't have a problem with Air Atlantics DC-6s operating at all hours day and night!!

further to above, ATC were later heard asking other pilots to report any occurances of windshear near the threshold of R23.

Notso Fantastic
20th Jul 2004, 20:55
I must step in with some observations there Robnewman.
1- you were at the far end of 23- say a mile away, upwind in a strong wind (evidently windshear present?). What you heard from the engines would not have coincided with events occuring on the aeroplane. So if engine noise cannot usually be heard from the other end of the airfield, are you sure it was
this aeroplane you heard or other engine sounds? In a wind like that you should not have been able to hear at all.
2- I don't find a landing following a 30 degree wing drop at 50' credible. Any pilot I know would go around immediately- an option that was available right up to touchdown.
3- What scraped the grass- the wingtip or the flap fairing? If it was the flap fairing the aircraft must have been very close to the edge! If the wingtip, scraping it through grass usually involves a crash.
4- What was your observation point? Were you located in a vehicle?
5- Did you observe the aircraft close-up following the incident?

Fly-by-night
20th Jul 2004, 21:15
robnewman:

"having spoken to the ASU pilot, who was conincidentally at the other end of the runway on the day in question, he states that the starboard wing did indeed scrap the grass on the right hand edge of R23 and left a nice furrow."


This simply is not true. If you're going to post on this forum get your facts right!

lawnmowerman
21st Jul 2004, 12:13
For my education, surely such an (alleged) incident would be investigated by Air Accidents Investigation Branch ? What would be the timescale for such an investigation and any report becoming public?

Tandemrotor
21st Jul 2004, 18:24
Much of robnewman's post does not ring true.

What's your motivation rob?

GARDENER
21st Jul 2004, 18:57
To put the post back on track...there was contact made with the runway with a part of the aircraft other than the wheels. Not normal I am sure you will all agree, so ...someone screwed up something went wrong! Ding! Ding! Round three:O

Notso Fantastic
21st Jul 2004, 20:33
So let me get this right- the wingtip or flap fairing of a 737 or 757 contacted the runway or grass beside runway after banking on final 0 up to 30 degrees and possibly putting a lot of power on, or possibly not, we're not sure. That is all we have after 3 pages of this? Yawn.

Arkroyal
22nd Jul 2004, 09:17
British Transport Police Air Support Unit Who?

CVT is covered by the East Midlands Air Support Unit. I don't think the BTP have air cover:confused:

robnewman
22nd Jul 2004, 10:27
in reply to those who disagree with the info i posted, as i said, i'm not a pilot so the exact technical info may be sligthly off. however, there are three pages of speculation on this thread as to if an incident even happened. i merely posted the incident as i saw it.

in answer to arkroyal, BTP has a part-time air support unit, operated in association with Network Rail. we have been operating for three years, firstly in the south-west and since may 2003, in the midlands. we are currently trying to secure funding to go full time. this will come, hopefully, later this year.

the aircraft used are squirrels of a bolkow, both provided by Veritair at cardiff, who also operate the South and East Wales Air Support Unit.

oh! and CVT is actually covered by West Midlands Air Support, so now who's getting their facts wrong!

Notso Fantastic
22nd Jul 2004, 18:21
I regret to say your eyewitness account is largely 'unreliable'. I am not saying you have told any untruths, but there are large holes in it and the account cannot be relied on. Perhaps it is the passage of time. How can you judge a bank angle at 50'? Anyone in a 30 degree bank not going around should be locked up. Your power estimations by your own account are unreliable. What hit where differs from other accounts. I regret to say it takes us nowhere. In the meantime, it is a shame the name of a good company is being dragged through the mire on totally different accounts of an event that might even actually not have taken place!