Jetstar and Pay Scales [Archive]

proplever

17th May 2004, 19:00

I believe this deserves a new thread. It comes from the Jetstar jobs, but it was a little unfair to hijack that thread with this discussion.

Col Kurtz stated:

Prop baby, JS is not for me thanks, I like where I work and what I fly, and money is not really a problem nor a motivator for me - it comes and goes, and I do not base my feelings of self worth on who I work for or how many houses/cars/toys I have acquired. My wealth doesn't make me anybody special or a better class of person than the next John trying to make his way in the world.

But what irks me is the snotty and arrogant attitude and derision that fat cats like to pull on the those lower down the rungs.

What have YOU done to protect your conditions?? What active part did YOU play in protecting mainline's position?

Whilst we are at it, what have YOU done to contribute to the conditions of the 'collective' .

Head in the sand??? Like when Australian first got set up, you really had NO IDEA that the likes of JS were coming??

Life's been pretty good in the Torre d'Ivoire??

I have been around long enough to know that men will do what they have to do to keep the children fed - in ANY industry.....you won't change that, so don't stress, you'll live longer.

Kurtz, please understand something here. This is not about my attitude, be it arrogant or snotty or whatever else you would like to personally lay upon me.

This is about net worth. Lets take you as an example, sir. You say you are happy with your lot, money is not a motivator for you. But lets say that another person comes along, and starts doing your job for exactly half what you get paid. Additionally, your prospects for advancement are greatly reduced, and your value to the community is downgraded. Kurtz, I believe that money will become a motivator to you very quickly. Because it is a very effective measuring stick.

Forgive my indignance, but I have a strong belief that an airline pilot who has struggled through his or her training, paid a small fortune for the privellege, and finally made it to the big time deserves more than these criminals at Jetstar are paying. By accepting this deal, the Jetstar pilots have made a statement to Airline Managements throughout Australia, and indeed the world, that our profession is worth less and less. If indeed you are an Airline Pilot, and if indeed you have an ounce of self respect you will understand my sentiments here.

Now, Kurtz, you may tell me that I shouldn't stress about it, because I will never change what has happened. And you are probably correct. But please don't limit my right to express my opinion about what has occurred here.

Another thread has recently been locked following a similar discussion, albeit on somewhere less than amicable terms. Thats because the instant that any of these Jetstar guys are critisized, they turn the thread into a slanging match. Now, I will certainly admit that over the years, I have done my fair share of sledging.

But my challenge to everyone on this Bulletin Board is this. Lets debate this topic, without resorting to sledging. Without playing the man. But lets have some serious answers.

To all Jetstar pilots. Are you aware that you have degraded pilot salary and conditions in Australia for the forseeable future?

redsnail

17th May 2004, 20:58

Proplever,
I got a question. What do you propose the guys and girls do who for whatever reason cannot get into Qantas do?
The same person who's flogged their proverbial out in the bush flying C207's and the like earning just barely the Award? You know, the folks that have stacked shelves, poured beers to earn the money to get a CPL.
Leave them earning crap wages because if they take a job with Jetstar or Virgin Blue they are shattering the conditions of the aussie airline pilot.
From an outsider who's still a member of the AFAP (and BALPA) I think your QF union dropped the ball when it came to the regionals and dare I say it, Impulse.

You are asking a question that a bloke earning barely $20-25K or if they are really lucky and on the twins (or FO on a Bandit) earning $33-35K do they knock back a chance to fly a jet earning more?

As for the guys in Impulse. What do you want them to do? Go on the dole? Say "no, I'm affecting the QF guys". Somehow I don't think it's going to happen. Yes I have a few friends in Qandom and they aren't happy about what's going on but why blame the jetstar guys? I would channel your energy to getting your union to attempt to fix the problem. (However, you first have to identify the problem.)

Me? I'm in the UK trying to batter down the attitude here that turboprop pilots aren't total newbies....

Wizofoz

17th May 2004, 21:09

To all Jetstar pilots. Are you aware that you have degraded pilot salary and conditions in Australia for the forseeable future?

Actually, that started when Qantas pilots accepted far less than the going rate to crew the 767.

But that MUST have been OK, right??

proplever

17th May 2004, 21:20

Thanks for the reply's guys.

What do you propose the guys and girls do who for whatever reason cannot get into Qantas do?

Fair question, red. But let me turn it around. What do you propose that they do? Do you propose that we all run around undercutting each other whilst carrying out what is effectively the same job? Where would that end? We must set and maintain a satisfactory level, and Jetstar deal doesn't even come close.

I propose that the Jetstar people stop working for what is effectively slave wages. They need to negotiate - hard - for more. I believe that they should have held out for a better deal. I accept that that deal may never have quite reached the QF pay scale, but it most certainly could and should have been better than it was.

Wiz. I can't answer that one. I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. Keg may have an answer for you, but I sure don't. But, I don't think that "going rate" was anywhere near the incredible low set by Jetstar.

Kaptin M

17th May 2004, 21:51

pl, may I suggest that you don't really give a fig about the salaries (and conditions) of Impulse and JetStar pilots.
You are only concerned about the probable flow-on effects that may affect YOU in the (near) future. :{
Would that be correct?

So instead of advising EVERYBODY else not to take a job that pays less than your's, why not try shoring up the very people with whom you now work to stand firm when the onslaught occurs! :ok:

It seems to me that you are trying to pre-place the blame for YOUR future (expected) failure to maintain YOUR conditions, on others.

What are YOUR plans, when the sycthe starts swinging?
How willing are YOU going to be to stand your ground and refuse to take a pay cut?

proplever

17th May 2004, 22:01

Right Kapt, but only to a certain extent. In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. But, viewing the entire situation, their decision to accept this disgusting packageHAS attected us all, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

What can I do? Not much, but lobby. I AM lobbying AIPA, I am lobbying my compatriots, and I don't mind rattling this tree. I'm also preparing for a career elsewhere, because this one seems to be going fast downhill in terms of remuneration and respect from the company.

What else would you suggest I do, Kapt?

Douglas Mcdonnell

17th May 2004, 22:46

Proplever, as the " official spokesperson for your company", I would suggest you ask some tough questions of your representitive union. It was they who blocked all efforts to amalgamate in the early days. I would suggest if that if a Rats Ar$e had been given then by you and your mates/ reps, that this would not have happened.

I am at a loss to see why you keep flogging the horse. It has ben established on many other threads by level headed debate as to why and how jetstar came about.

Your continued insistance on bagging jetstar pilots only serves to highlight your ignorance and typical big organisation head in the sand attitude. I think quite frankly that most posters are very tired of your childish stirring comments and deriding tones. I would suggest that, as we have already seen here, most of your work mates have backed away from you and your comments because of the repettive childlike insistance on your point of view. You give airline pilots a bad name lever.

loozr

17th May 2004, 22:58

Agree with some of your points red, however..... As a member of AIPA and also Balpa I can see many reasons why AIPA should be trying hard to represent ALL pilots in Australia ala Balpa. I think their figures are something like 7500+ members represented over 26 companies. Not a bad effort and the results driven by the team of negotiators seem to be excellent.
As we know, the situation in Australia will always be an adequate (at worst) or oversupply (normal) of pilots. This is the problem. Easyjet, Ryanair achieved good levels of pay without union representation initially. It would be nice to get a copy of the pay scale comparisons that are published by Balpa to give a guide to the relative pays of 'legacy' vs 'lowcost/no frills'. Some will be suprised to see that it isn't that huge a difference over there. Somehow this hasn't filtered down to the bretheren in this part of the world and instead, prostitution continues.
Unfortunately, the scene has been set and without some smart thinking by everyone, the pimps will be taking all the cash whilst the people on the street will get less and less.:{

redsnail

17th May 2004, 22:59

Fair point proplever, most of these folks in jetstar have seen what undercutting does in GA. Unfortunately, as what happened with them in Impulse, no one genuinely cares. There are some great employers in GA but not every one can work for them.
What union looks after the jetstar guys? To be effective then it would have to be pretty powerful.

This suggestion will be very distasteful in Australia but funnily enough it works reasonably well in the UK. Get rid of seniority. A captain working for X airlines can keep command (or be on a fast track) if s/he goes to another airline. They are effectively trading their skills on the open market. A high time FO in a slow progression company can take their skills to another and fast track to command or even go in as a direct entry command. What this has done is ensure the salaries are kept reasonably high.
If what is happening and the jetstar wages are low. Then as soon as the captains have a reasonable amount of time then they can jump to eg Virgin Blue and keep their command status. Therefore to keep the crew jetstar would have to increase the salaries. What would really shake it up if the command time on Dash 8's were recognised and those guys were offered a fast track command in Jetstar. Absolutley no reason why it can't happen and it does happen in Europe.
Many Aussies and Kiwis have kept their command when they left the southern hemisphere and now working as captains for various companies in the UK. Most of the companies here realise to attract captains and high time FO's, they have to offer something reasonable.

From what I can tell in BALPA, the legacy companies have seniority, the new "lo-co's" don't. It isn't perfect but it does acknowlegde previous experience whereas strict seniority won't.
Loozr, have to agree with you regarding T&Cs. A BA A319 captain has a similar salary to a lo-co captain. (Albeit with different perks and pensions). Main diff, it doesn't take ~ 5-10 years to get command in a Lo-Co.

good luck.

DirectAnywhere

17th May 2004, 23:17

One of the problems in Australia that doesn't exist in Europe - anecdotally I believe at least - is the progression in GA and the salaries that are paid in GA. The problem here starts right at the bottom of the ladder.

I think most people know my position on Jetstar but, that said, I left GA as a ME IFR GR1 earning 26k a year, some 18k below the award. It's therefore a bit rich for me to now start preaching to some poor bastard or bastette in the same situation that they shouldn't take that 70k a year jet job. I know that they're worth more than that, but I also know that most GA pilots are worth a lot more than they're on. Until there is an Australia wide union (sound familiar!) with the industrial muscle and balls to bring all pilots under the one umbrella and prevent undercutting in GA, the airline situation will continue to deteriorate. That means if Joe Bloggs in Horn Island is getting paid under the award, he can expect the support of 2,500 QF pilots and however many DJ, Rex, Eastern, Sunnies etc. pilots we can find.

It's a culture that's so entrenched in GA - offering less than someone else to do the job - that it was inevitable it would spill over. It's time to put this one behind us and try and work togther, and this means largely AIPA and the AFAP (as distasteful as it may be for some) to ensure that the Australian pilots now and of the future are remunerated appropriately for their work.

Three Bars

17th May 2004, 23:38

Proppy,

I admire your persistence - I made the same arguments for a couple of weeks (months?) on these forums last year and eventually gave up.

Australia is a land of tall poppy cutters, and in Australian aviation, there is only one tall poppy left - Qantas!

Many posters blame AIPA for separating itself from the AFAP in the leadup to the 89 dispute. Those who were in the Association at that time (and have spoken to me about it) said that they could see where the AFAP was heading at the time and didn't want to be a part of it. As a group, that is surely their right! But once again, I'm sure, there will be many here who feel that they were just gutless, Company lackies!

The dispute eventually ended and left pilots in a very weakened and paranoid state - to my recollection there were no other major union organsiations who supported the pilots, becuase they were seen as greedy silvertails who didn't really fit the blue collar union image. Remeber too, that this bitter dispute was fought out under the tutelage of a LABOR government!

In recent years, industrial leverage has swung even more in favour of employers, and they have used this advantage to establish extensive part-time and casual workforces. These workers have very few conditions - sick leave, annual leave or penalty rates - and this environment has created an atmosphere where workers feel that they are "lucky" to have a job. They are lead to think only about their own circumstances rather than thinking of themselves as a collective group. I suggest that this phenomenon is probably a legacy of the rampant, militant unionism of the '70s.

In the current era, workers now feel that they have to compete with other for the "luxury" of a fulltime job. At QF, instead of being valued employees who fill the vital role of securing our employer's revenue, we are continuously barraged by the fact that we are their "biggest expense" and that we must continue to lose our conditions in order to remain competitive. To me, it is very sad that airlines now boast about being cheaper than each other, rather than offering a superior product. Low Cost carriers - who should be termed Low Wage carriers - are cropping up as the new sweatshops of aviation.

Meanwhile, the travelling public doesn't give a toss and would fly with "Air Bulgaria" - if they asked to operate in Australia and offered cheaper seats. Mind you, they still expect to get in-seat entertainment, complimentary meals and drinks and newspapers, despite travelling on tickets prices that would have been cheap for a bus in the 1980s. The airlines continue to believe that they have to offer this, but how can they afford it? "We're not competitive, we have to cut wages and conditions further!!"

So now Jetstar has set a new low for worker's conditions - "to remain competitive". Hell, there'll be pilots who'd still fly for less money just to get into a new jet - ask Next Generation! The employers know this and also know that QF pilots are in the vast minority. The pilot body is fractured and infighting is everywhere. AIPA missed the boat in representing Impulse pilots - there is no doubt about that. But, contrary to what Col Kurtz believes, AIPA does not actually ring me up and ask me what they should do! I also happen to be fairly busy raising my own family and don't have a lot of time to pre-empt what my employer will do on the industrial battlefield! If the action that they take is legal in accordance with Industrial legislation, I will NOT risk my family's future to fight on behalf of those who would undercut me.

And so we come to the Impulse/Jetstar situation. Proppy, when you mention that many Impulse pilots didn't meet QF recruitment standards, you are correct. But saying that here will just make you an "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nker". We now have AIPA negotiating conditions on behalf of Jetstar/Impulse pilots when we have no industrial coverage of them. And what are these pilots most concerned about? - gaining access to mainline seniority numbers and jobs. Boy! That'll really go down well with the Regional boys and girls! The only answer, of course, is to have mainline seniority numbers for all QF group pilots, and I sincerely hope that this is part of the package that is put to a vote later this year.

In the interim, Redsnail asks a very valid question - where do new licence holders go for a job. Should they haul around in GA on subsistence pay so as not to put pressure on QF conditions? Of course that situation is not going to happen - but ultimately this may be where the cycle stops. Because, ladies and gents, would you advise your children to take flying lessons for anything other than enjoyment? The days of a well-paid flying career are probably over - just look at Jetstar. Pay a $30,000 endorsement out of your own pocket to fly as an F/O on $60-70000 a year? How many years would it take just to break even? So, IMHO, this cycle will not end until the intakes at flying schools drop through the floor and GA dies a slow, painful death - some would say that that process may be starting to happen now. Only with a pilot shortage will conditions improve.

In the interim, pilots will continue to undercut each other and backstab each other just to get one of those "valuable" jet jobs. Hell, if there's to be a strike, the Colonel believes that it should be QF pilots who man the barricades and fight an industrial war to the death - after all, if those "arrogant, eltitist, QF w*nkers are all sacked, there'd be more jet jobs available, and probably even on a slightly higher rate of pay.

Proppy - sadly, the Australian aviation community - at least those who post on this forum - don't see QF pilots as the last bastion of good pay and conditions for airline flying in this country. To paraphrase Monty Python, they would gladly "cut us in 'alf with an axe and dance on our graves singin' halleluljah." Then they would undercut each other to secure our jobs at a vastly reduced payscale and convince each other that those "arrogant, eltitist QF w*nkers" had it coming to them! And their conditions would not improve until there were no longer any Next Generations behind them who would further undercut them!!

So Proppy, I admire your persistence and tenacity! Keep fighting the good fight as long as your blood pressure holds out - you will have at least one supporter.

Woomera

18th May 2004, 00:17

Three Bars

WOW! insightfully and calmly put. Elephant stamp for you and the others. :cool:

It is not our job to endorse or support one view or the other and neither do I here, save to say to all, keep up the "good work" in rational and well reasoned, but tough PPRuNe style debate, rather than the "eye poking and gouging" routine that has been the standard elsewhere of late.

There are some uncomfortable truths?? in the employment world today we are all affected by them one way or the other, the road to effective union as a profession is first paved with the roadbase of understanding and accepting each others position and journey to "there" wherever "there" is for them.

:ok:

Douglas Mcdonnell

18th May 2004, 00:25

Three bars. You do have some valid points. At the end of the day the winners are management. Division yes, one focused goal, well no. I think this was the end result the the higher ranks wanted.

Did any of us see this coming. Yes. Do any of us see whats coming next. Most likely. Its very easy to point the finger at a small group of pilots. At the end of the day. With no big brother representation, and might I add backed into a no win corner, what would you have done?

Cheers DM

victor two

18th May 2004, 00:26

Just out of curiosity, can anyone post an accurate figure as to what sort of dollars crews with Virgin and Jetstar are making. I'm not talking about how much to the cent but just a reasonably accurate figure as to what is getting paid. Also, what sort of dollars are required in type ratings to get that job in the first place.

Such as Virgin. Type rating cost: $30K, Captain makes $ 90K, FO makes 40K etc. etc.

Just be intersted to see what dollars we are talking here.

cheers

Vic.

Three Bars

18th May 2004, 02:13

DM,

I will preface my response by saying, again, that with hinsight, AIPA dropped the ball on not getting Impulse coverage right from the start. AIPA, as well as its members, has been trying to navigate a course through new, complex waters that we, as a group, have never encountered before. At the time of Impulse's incorporation (absorption?) into the QF group, there were many issues on the burner that were probably preceived as being more important - from memory it was the debate over 737-800s (flown by QF pilots) or A320s (possibly flown by new-hires) for the domestic network. The trees were very prominently in front of the forest with the fullness of 20/20 hindsight.

AIPA managed to avert the A320 question until the advent of Jetstar. I think what irks Proppy (and others) is that the Jetstar deal was presented as a fait acompli - already agreed to by the Impulse Pilot Council - in a deal that is seen by many as a "rollover" on the part of your representatives. I do not begrudge anyone's right to take the actions that they consider to be in the best interest of their family - family must be the number one priority. However, I think that many QF pilots feel that there could have been a little more resistance. While I am not on the AIPA COM and so not fully aware of the processes that had gone on to that point, I feel that, given the circumstances, the IPC may have been able to secure AIPA membership if it had again sought this out during the initial Jetstar negotiations.

QF pilots are, I think, much more fair-minded than some people would like to think. There was no dancing in the streets when Ansett collapsed. And I would hope that those Ansett pilots who have since joined QF have not encountered the ogres that they were expecting. The huge turnout at the AIPA Special AGM on Jetstar would have convinced anyone as to the importance of the Jetstar situation to QF pilots - the desire to see coverage of all QF-group pilots into AIPA was clearly expressed. The fact that the Impulse "deal" was presented as no longer negotiable has made many QF pilots feel that the IPC sold-out, when a little firmer resolve - or another approach to AIPA - could have led to a better outcome for all.

HIALS

18th May 2004, 02:34

One of the things that most casual observers (and greedy GA wannabees) overlooked in 1989 - was that the work conditions enjoyed by the domestic & QF pilots then were a works in progress. Airline pilot conditions of service had not always been grand. They were the result of decades, even generations of hard work, tough negotiation and incremental improvement. The pilots of those eras understood solidarity. They stood together and the commonwealth rose through time as a result.

What Australia needs now is to re-invent the wheel.

AIPA & AFAP need to bury the past and get together as a comprehensive pilot union. Then they can join IFALPA and get on with the task of rebuilding, what was dashed by a greedy few in the last months of 1989. The task of the airline pilots in Australia today (QF + DJ + Jetstar) is to start the long slow task of rebuilding good terms and conditions of employment. Sadly it will take decades, even generations. But step one is to understand the need for solidarity. And then to translate that understanding into a comprehensive, cohesive body to represent pilots (from GA to Jumbos).

If this happened - I might even contemplate coming back to work in Australia again, because I might have finally regained some respect for Australian pilots.

p.s. I have always retained membership of the AFAP (after 15 years abroad) and am proudly a member of HKALPA and IFALPA.

druckmefunk

18th May 2004, 04:06

Proplever

I'm not involved in Oz aviation, and the problem you guys have is not having an impact on me yet. I am just watching with interest as an Ozmate O/S.

There is no simple answer to your problems, but I think you gave a valuable insight when you let your guard down on the, 18th of May, and said "In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. "

That, I'm afraid, is a major problem. Until you guys develop genuine concerns for your fellow man, you are buggered. It is of no use to suddenly be concerned about someone elses situation just because it is about to affect you.

Solidarity is about looking after each other all the time, not just when your own pay packet is starting to look shaky.

If the union had taken the lesser mortals under their mighty wings 10 or 15 years ago, for no other reason than to help them, today you might be in a completely different situation.

I cant help but be little skeptical about the motives of many of the poster here. Are they genuinely concerned about all of their fellow aviators, or have they suddenly become concerned because it has just dawned apon them that their immediated future is now somewhat clouded.

dmf

Douglas Mcdonnell

18th May 2004, 04:35

Once again 3 bars. Well put. I am certainly not aware, nor pretend to be, of the behind the scenes " deals". I think that "a little more resolve " would have ended the iminent employment of all at Impulse. I think the IPC did the best they could under the circumstances. Once again, a united front would have been a much better proposal.

At the end of the day, all stick pointing and name calling aside, I would like to hope that this can still be achieved for the benefit of all those involved. AND all those pilots still to progress into the airline group. With attitudes like proplevers still out there, this will be made so much harder.

Having been involved some 15 yrs ago, I have seen first hand the consequences of allowing ones self to be suckered into the he said/she said game. As educated adults, negotiation is the only way forward for us all.

Cheereo DM.

rocks off

18th May 2004, 05:11

I haven't posted on Pprune before but after dwelling on it for most of the day I feel compelled to throw in my 10 cents worth.

Firstly, 3 bars and HIALS....excellent posts. You raise some good points.

Proplever,
Your obsession for completely and utterly bagging out the Jetstar pilot group at every opportunity has me completely dumb-founded. It has been going on for a (very) long while now and.....WE GET THE POINT!!

Jetstar pilots are a useless bunch of scabs, prostitutes, whatever and they have degraded conditions for all future airline pilots.

Right.... gotcha....we're all clear on that one.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that we can move on?

Please.....?

I could not agree more! Could we please have this debate without unnecessary vitreolic, derogatory references to any one pilot group?

This is a worthwhile debate - let's not demean it.

Woomera

Pete Conrad

18th May 2004, 05:17

Geez rocks off, you may take the heat off proppy with that one.

DM, you make valid points, the person I agree with the most here is three bars - however DM, to turn around now and be humble is a bit rich from the Impulse guys - I mean seriously, did you guys consider the fate of the QF regional guys in all this to name but a few? No.

Proppy is right, the Impulse guys have taken a dump in the collective nest, meanwhile Dicko is just doing what he does naturally - playing us off all against one another.

Capt Claret

18th May 2004, 06:00

For the life of me I can't understand why so many comments relate to the IPG considering other pilot groups, regional or otherwise.

Many a contemptuous comment has been made about Impulse over the last few years. Most of the issues, as I understand them have been management ones but most of the PPRuNe vitriol has been directed at the pilots.

If the deity hadn't been smiling in their direction, so that they've ended up being Johnny-On-the-Spot, then there wouldn't be so much jealousy evident. :rolleyes:

longjohn

18th May 2004, 10:30

redsnail - Could not agree more. Surely if we were like every other industry then individual employers would not be able to play us off so easily as those who were worth more would migrate elsewhere.

Alas, I think we are perhaps still 10 - 15 years off the point where this point of view will be more than just a fringe idea.

Many things amaze me about AIPA, like their attitude towards the A list drivers (ie their own), their attitude to 89' , their intense 'company mindedness' their lack of foresight on issues such as Jetstar etc. etc. I cannot point to why they have these attitudes, however it is certainly endemic.

A GA Union. What a great idea, maybe if we start with a solid wage foundation then pilots would be more aware of thier negotiating power.

Unfortunately this would require the assistance of AIPA and the AFAP and I am afraid that neither has that degree of forsight.

proplever

18th May 2004, 21:51

Some very good discussion, and some very valid points raised. Couldn't agree more, Woomera. It's good to see this being tossed around rationally for a change.

Couple of points here. Firstly, DM. You seem to go on the offensive antime anyone states anything even remotely critical of Jetstar or Impluse. Offense is the best form of Defense?

I will NOT risk my family's future to fight on behalf of those who would undercut me.

A very good point, Three Bars. So, for all of those out there who seem to suggest that AIPA should have been more proactive in taking the IPG under it's wing, ask yourself, WHY? Impulse had already set very low standards with Jerry, flying the 717. So, why should (in principle) we (AIPA) have looked after them? Why should we continue to make attempts to do so?

"In isolation, I couldn't give a damn about the Jetstar pilots. "

Drunk, you must understand the context of this. You accuse me of not worrying about my fellow man, yet do you think for a minute that these IPG guys would give a second thought about knobbling a QF mainline pilot and taking his job. I don't think so. So, my point is this. By highlighting the poor deal that the IPG has accepted, and encouraging them to fight for a better deal, yes I'm looking after number one, but I'm also looking out for their interests and the interests of airline pilots Australia wide. I worry more about my fellow man than the IPG do. Rest assured of that.

Anything to contribute other than critisism, Rocks off?

Capt Claret

18th May 2004, 22:47

Any one got a new record? :ugh:

victor two

19th May 2004, 00:35

I was wondering, did anyone have any idea about what sort of pilot salary packages these new low cost pilots are being offered. With all the heated debate over scabs, and whores I am curious as to what degree of under cutting is going on and how that equates to what Ansett and QF drivers were pulling in back in '89. What does a Jetstar A320 pilot starting this year expect to take home and how much will it cost him in direct hard earned folding bucks to get trained to line?

This isn't a wind up or stir, I'd be curious to hear what a new start with VB or Jetstar is likely to take home?

cheers

Vic

scud_runner

19th May 2004, 06:15

I was of the understanding that they agreed to fly the A320 for the same money as the current 717 deal. Whatever that might be.

100 000 for a Captain 60 000 for an FO??

E.P.

19th May 2004, 08:45

Just the facts; VB Capts $164,305.79 and F/Os $106,798.76 as at May 2004. Net about $8500 for Cpt and $5500 for an F/0. Surely the Pornstar guys could move a little closer to this?? :{

aiming point

19th May 2004, 12:40

HIALS

The good people here would do well to read your posts carefully and thoughtfully.
Unfortunately few care or indeed even know about the history and lessons that could be learnt from flight-crew life PRE/POST the arrival of the "North American Contract" into Australia during the '60s and into the '70s.
They say aviation cycles but sadly in Australia aviation has cycled back some 40 years.

Still the sun keeps rising in the morning so there is always hope that one day again....just maybe...............

amos2

19th May 2004, 12:51

Assuming your figures are correct E.P...in respect to annual salaries for Virgin pilots...

then what is the bitch about salaries??? :confused:

I mean, we are talking serious money here!!

fartsock

19th May 2004, 21:02

amos,

serious money relative to what ???

what do you think the profession of pilot in this country and worldwide is worth ??

have a look at what isv being paid to pilots in north asia at the moment an then tell me if you think pilots arde overpaid in this country.

Jetstar is costing $1 billion to set up, to fly routes that in most cases are already serviced by QF group aircraft.

Joyce and his cronies at the top of the airline are all on $1 million per year +++ or very close to it.

Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost.

FS

ftrplt

19th May 2004, 22:41

Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost.

Poor little FS, everyone out to get me. If everything in life was as black and white as you see it then it would be easy.

If some pilots spent less time thinking they were special, and remembered they are actually employees, then the results might be a little better.

The siege mentality is fruitless and quite frankly, childish in this day and age.

Al E. Vator

19th May 2004, 23:10

ftrplt

20th May 2004, 02:41

Bollocks ftrpt.........FS is quite correct in his last post. Pilots are still special, try operating an airliner without them. Without denigrating other professions, no one person is more critical to the flight than the pilot (an aircraft can get airborne if a manager or cleaner calls in sick but not if the pilot isn't there).

and pilots get paid significantly more than cleaners for that very reason (and cabin crew, load controllers, check in staff etc)

As with any industry, supply and demand will govern what pilots get paid. Globally the industry now must pay appropriately and pilots will move to where pay and conditions are better.

Exactly right. How much is 'appropriately' by the way?

So is it a case of 'smashing pilot conditions and non operational parasites doing everything they can to cut pilots down to size'; or is it a case of supply and demand?

The recent recruitment was for FO's to fill short notice vacancies (Dragonair)".

And there were enough replacements readily available to fill the positions

Jetstar will simply be a training ground for pilots who will then take their endorsemnt and move O/S to where the demand is strong and conditions far superior.

maybe, maybe not; pure speculation. Will have to wait and see. Im sure there will be plenty of people willing to replace them for the conditions on offer - supply and demand.

like pigs at a trough they grab as many 'perfomance' bonusses and .hypocritical and divisive managements

sounds very much like your version of tall poppy syndrome. What other people are able to negotiate for their services is irrelevant - back to supply and demand

Aussie pilots need to unite as an industrial group (AIPA and AFAP) and take a cohesive stand

agreed.

They also need to attack from a realistic standpoint - blaming the Impulse pilots and using terms like 'non-operational parasites' are hardly going to help win support for your position.

Im sure events such as:

- the demise of the 2 airline policy
- privatisation and listing on the stock market of Qantas
- the emergence of low cost airlines throughout the world
- 89
- more rigourous competition throughout the world
- Sep 11 and SARS
- changes to the industrial relations laws throughout the country
- threat of a 2nd low cost airline in Australia
- collapse of Ansett

have had nothing to do with the downward pressure of pilots conditions. No, its all a conspiracy by greedy, jealous management to cut the tall poppy pilots (after all they are so very special) down to size. Its so simple when everything is so black and white.

From FS' last post:

what do you think the profession of pilot in this country and worldwide is worth ??

whatever the market will pay and still fill the seats

have a look at what isv being paid to pilots in north asia at the moment an then tell me if you think pilots arde overpaid in this country.

irrelevant

Jetstar is costing $1 billion to set up, to fly routes that in most cases are already serviced by QF group aircraft

and they obviously believe that over time it will result in increased return to the shareholders, or that it will stop another entrant entering the market. Who is to know whether Jetstar is going to work or not, but to think its all about 'smashing the pilots' is just childish.

Joyce and his cronies at the top of the airline are all on $1 million per year +++ or very close to it.

Good luck to them. Quite indicative of FS' approach by labelling all his management team 'cronies'. Gee, they must all be useless and much less special than the pilots.

Jetstar is about smashing pilot conditions and non-operational parasties doing evrything they can to 'cut pilots down to size' - not about low cost

Can see it now; "Damn, FS has seen right through us. Oh well, lets pay them more then."

TurbineDreamer

20th May 2004, 04:23

E.P.

Where do you get the figure of $164,000 from for a VB capt.
On the wagenet site, July 2004 - says that the cpat. salary is $129, 898

Are there other things that are calculated into the $164,000?

E.P.

20th May 2004, 07:40

Figures from March 11 Memorandum sent out by John Raby. Includes super etc, therefore is the total package. :D I believe JRs package is around $600k plus the stock. Low cost huh? :ok:

Just another point. Many of you in VB and Pornstar have never worked in "other" airlines so therefore will probably not care about this point. However, the profession of "Airline Pilot" is also being eroded by the way you present yourselves. PLEASE bring back the traditional uniforms, so pilots can at least "LOOK" as if they take some pride in their performance. :ugh:

I can just see Russell (burp) Crow in the "low cost" uniform, as ambassador at large to the low cost carriers!!

Capt Claret

20th May 2004, 08:10

E.P., proplever et al

Rather than you guys repeatedly telling Jetstar/Virgin/NJS pilots how we're eroding the profession of piloting, why don't you prevail upon the leadership of your professional association to unite. Then invite us all (all CPL and ATPL holders) to join, and then work towards upgrading the status of professional pilots to where the collective group believes it should be.

It's getting really tiresome to hear those at the top of the heap berating us lower class plebs for taking the best deal we could negotiate for ourselves. Particularly when the big boys have repeatedly maintained a closed club. :{

proplever

20th May 2004, 20:53

Claret, please understand that no-one is berating you personally. A few individuals here are simply highlighting the ever decreasing standard of our pay and conditions as airline pilots.

Then guys like ftrpt come along and tell us that we actually are worth less. Personally and quite frankly, ftrplt, I'm apalled at your "cleaner" analogy, because you clearly don't understand what you have written.

Twenty five years ago, what would the ratio of an airline pilots salary in comparison to a cleaners salary have been? What would it be today? I would suggest to all of you that the margin has dramatically closed, to an extent where cleaners these days earn probably more even than some regional pilots.

YOU think this is RIGHT, ftrplt? You can rationalise this with all of the propaganda fed to you by management, but the extent of our decreasing remuneration is nothing short of criminal, and cannot be justified. Serious money, amos2? You must be joking.

Whatever the market will pay, ftrplt? Good lord, son. The market believes that they have every right to fly between Syd and Mel for $30. The market, if they had a choice would value YOU at zero. And after your comments, I do too.

spinout

20th May 2004, 21:48

and pilots get paid significantly more than cleaners for that very reason (and cabin crew, load controllers, check in staff etc)

You have to feel for the Q Regional pilots they already get paid the same as cleaners, the FO's and FA's possibly less, and now with pilots accepting low pay for bigger aircraft the pressure is on for the Regionals to take less or do more for what they currently get!:mad:

bonvol

20th May 2004, 22:38

Amos2, a QF S/O with a bit of time will get pretty close to those VB Capt salary figures and their "package" would exceed it.

QF Mainline is the last bastion of half reasonable pay and conditions in this country but it wont last. The company is successfully nibbling it away, demanding offsets for everything and soon will have cheap jet drivers on good equipment to wield as a big stick if they want. Just wait till Jetstar has a pile of Airbuses running around canabalising Qandom and the game will be on.

The mainline drivers are the deer in the company headlights and the best thing to do is use the temporary "good" conditions to set up alternative streams of income.

The Jetstar drivers are the darlings of management. They work cheap and accept what they are given. Can't ask for much more than that. AIPA gave them the cold shoulder when it counted and now can't rescue much from the train wreck. They probably can't spare too much time on the issue as getting seniority for non member non employed cadets is what's important :yuk:

If AIPA negotiated 100% of Jetstar positions offered to mainline it wouldn't matter. No one in their right mind would go there on the current deal so the company would get the result they desired anyway.

Swotting the mossies while you are up to your a#$e in alligators springs to mind.

ftrplt

21st May 2004, 00:21

and there are a few people here who dont read what is written..

Claret, please understand that no-one is berating you personally

there are plenty of people berating him personally

Then guys like ftrpt come along and tell us that we actually are worth less.

I have never said we are worth less; I have said the current market conditions and industrial landscape means that employers are able to offer us less with not much to counter it with.

I would love to get $500 000 a year, but unless the market is such that the employer has to pay me that - he just wont. It achieves nothing by getting all emotional about it and accusing other pilot groups of causing, just as it is pointless adopting a siege mentality about it. This wont stop it.

Twenty five years ago, what would the ratio of an airline pilots salary in comparison to a cleaners salary have been? What would it be today? I would suggest to all of you that the margin has dramatically closed, to an extent where cleaners these days earn probably more even than some regional pilots

Possibly true, but what is your point?? Is that your argument, that just because the ratio has changed then you must pay us more? I can see management laughing at you now. I guess supply and Demand has nothing to do with maintaining the salary of the cleaner?

YOU think this is RIGHT, ftrplt? You can rationalise this with all of the propaganda fed to you by management, but the extent of our decreasing remuneration is nothing short of criminal, and cannot be justified. Serious money, amos2? You must be joking.

Where have i said I think it is 'right'? What is right and wrong about this anyway??? Im sure the shareholders think its 'right' just as you and others think its 'wrong'. I think its unfortunate that the industry is in this phase, but I dont think its 'right' or 'wrong'; its reality.

What I do think though, its not the fault of any pilot group and I dont believe that it has anything to do with 'smashing pilot conditions and cutting airline pilots down to size'.

Whatever the market will pay, ftrplt? Good lord, son. The market believes that they have every right to fly between Syd and Mel for $30.

You have just agreed with what I have been saying; this is one of the factors forcing downward pressure on conditions. Tell me the downward spiral on conditions has nothing to do with Supply and Demand then??

The market, if they had a choice would value YOU at zero. And after your comments, I do too

The old 'they are out to get me blinkers again'; no wonder you cant see the forest for the trees. Just a plain silly comment.

You show the typical response of the blinkered QF airline pilot; everyones out to get me, its all someone elses fault, management are over-paid cronies and Impulse pilots sold us down the river.

proplever

21st May 2004, 03:55

I just love this comment, ftrplt.

I guess supply and Demand has nothing to do with maintaining the salary of the cleaner?

No it doesn't, and no it shouldn't. Same should be true of pilot's salaries. Care to justify why it should be any different? Because I'm sure a regional pilot who earns as much as a cleaner would be overjoyed to hear your rationalisation.

Next. Claret is NOT being berated personally. The IPG is being berated collectively by quite a few individuals.

Next. You have intimated throughout your posts that we are worth less and this is due to your version of "market forces".

Ftrplt. There was a very good reason why you weren't voted on to the AIPA com. In all of your posts above you have rationalised away any justification for maintaining pilots remuneration. That, combined with your arrogant knucklehead mentality.

Yes, I'm an idealist. But that's not a bad thing. I don't for an instant think that everyone's out to get me. I'm convinced that everyone's out there for themselves, and thats what has got us into this mess. Be they management, AIPA, or the IPG, we are in a world of sh1t, and unless people like you, ftrplt, cease rationalising it all away, the future looks bleak indeed.

ftrplt

21st May 2004, 06:01

this is getting tiresome; but anyway:

.No it doesn't, and no it shouldn't. Same should be true of pilot's salaries.

If you cant see this then I cant even begin to try and justify it. Are you really trying to tell me that market forces dont, or shouldnt, have any impact on pilots conditions?

Because I'm sure a regional pilot who earns as much as a cleaner would be overjoyed to hear your rationalisation.

who says they do, sure its not a case of believing something because it supports your belief

Claret is NOT being berated personally. The IPG is being berated collectively by quite a few individuals

same thing really, and Im sure that was what CAPT Claret meant. I lay no blame at the feet of the IPG; if they didnt take a deal, someone else would have. Get the best you can, then work on it from there. You have previously asserted that they should have held on for more, and they would have got it. You are in no better position than I am to know whether this would have been possible. You are making an asserion to support your position.

I do chuckle though that AIPA is now finally interested in covering all Qantas pilots - a little late me thinks. Sounds like a better place to slate some blame.

You have intimated throughout your posts that we are worth less and this is due to your version of "market forces".

No, you have decided to believe that is what I meant. I do not believe pilots are worth less. I actually believe there are lots of professions 'worth' more, they just dont receive it.

What determines worth?? Why does a golfer who never wins anything get over 1 million USD a year??

Why do people pay millions of dollars for what I believe to be worthless pieces of art??

By the way, I believe Air Force pilots are worth more, they dont get it either.

You will win NO argument about money if your #1 argument is your own perception of your own WORTH.

In all of your posts above you have rationalised away any justification for maintaining pilots remuneration.

No I have not. I have indicated that I believe the reasons for the downward spiral are more complex and mulit-faceted than simply 'an attempt to smash the conditions of pilots' from 'management and their cronies' and those 'criminals at Jetstar'.

If you dont understand (or accept) the real reasons for this situation then you have no chance of being successful in attempts to maintain / improve / or minimise the degradation of pilots conditions. That is my whole point.

I have never indicated that I believe our 'worth' deserves lower conditions.

Ftrplt. There was a very good reason why you weren't voted on to the AIPA com. In all of your posts above you have rationalised away any justification for maintaining pilots remuneration. That, combined with your arrogant knucklehead mentality

Just so you completely understand - nothing I have written has rationalised away anything. I have only stated the reasons WHY I believe we are in this situation, which I believe need to be considered when determining how we go about stopping / minimising it. Believe it or not, we both want the same thing - we seem to believe the cause lies in different areas.

Interesting that you believe you speak for over 2000 pilots in Qantas though.

commander adama

21st May 2004, 06:06

Woomera

This moron is never going to give up. He's a one man band moron and quite frankly I and many others are sick to death of the crap he is posting. Lock this thread now! He is a gutless little w2nker hiding behind a computer screen. He has no balls and to date has not confronted anyone in the IPG or Aipa. He is giving mainline a bad name and I am aware there are many out there searching for this idiots true identity.

proplever

21st May 2004, 20:58

Adama. This discussion was interesting until you came along. You son, are quite pathetic. You call me names and tell me that I'm hiding behind a computer screen, when you are doingexactly the same thing. Hypocracy springs to mind. But, you go on threatening, and name calling if it makes you feel good.

But don't you dare attempt to take away my right to free speech.

ftrplt. Be careful what you write, people might just believe it!

Woomera

21st May 2004, 21:42

Kiddies, let's stop getting personal eh??
Commander Adama, this thread will remain open for the time being.
However, it appears that any time a member is critical of your pilot group you demand the thread be closed.
A search of your posts reveals that the majority of them contain personal swipes at other posters. You are drawing the fire you complain about.
If you start making some useful contributions to this forum, instead of slagging off at everybody that holds an opinion different to yours, you might find things cool off a bit.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

CRANKY WOOMERA

commander adama

21st May 2004, 21:46

Prop

If you want to make a fool of yourself that is your free right.

You are so bloody naive that I am led to believe you are very young with no life experience. The EBA is not perfect. But hey prop do we hold out when we are already sitting on a cliff. Wait for AIPA to come to the bloody rescue.

I IPG has just secured a job for at least 20 years on a brand spanking new Airbus on rates of pay better than when Virgin started and now almost on par with.

And you be careful about stating Jetstar pilots degrade the industry. Most of the senior direct entry pilots lost their jobs in the pilot dispute. You would have no idea what it would be like to go from a Captain to a gGardner and see your pay slashed. Ask your seniour captain when he joined? and as for 767 pay. Well that's ok when it suits.

proplever

21st May 2004, 22:16

Well, good morning to you too, Adama. Still can't control yourself, mate? I would suggest to you that this is a quality which is inappropriate on the flight deck. No wonder you failed QF testing.

However, it appears that any time a member is critical of your pilot group you demand the thread be closed. A search of your posts reveals that the majority of them contain personal swipes at other posters. You are drawing the fire you complain about.If you start making some useful contributions to this forum, instead of slagging off at everybody that holds an opinion different to yours, you might find things cool off a bit.

You just don't listen, do you adama? Another poor quality for the cockpit!

Despite what you have stated in your grammatically incorrect diatribe, I will state again for the record. The actions of the IPG in accepting a pay deal that is substandard has adversely affected the remainder of the industry.

Now can we go back to discussing this rationally?

Douglas Mcdonnell

21st May 2004, 22:16

This new touchy feely Proplever might be able to explain why Aipa shunned the pulse guys 2 and a half years ago.

We werent good enough then but now there has to be coverage of everyone. For the greater cause of course. Now, proplever, did your group, as a whole then contribute to the current situation? Being better than everyone else has left you in a bit of a hypocritical situation hasnt it mate. Look at the figures 2400 as against to 200 pilots.

So the stronger organisation allows the smaler group to fend for itself. Now the stronger group is critical of the smaller group because it did the best it could for itself and its members. Figure that one out. I think your argument is hollow prop and only serves to highlight your ignorance and lack of respect for others. If this is what being a professional aviator is well the industry is screwed.

I would suggest you step back from the keyboard and have a look at the facts. I feel you have definately flogged this poor old horse to death.

DM

proplever

21st May 2004, 22:26

DM, would you care to tell me why you think that AIPA had some kind of responsibility towards you guys two and a half years ago? Because we (read AIPA) didn't.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I didn't see this coming, and nor did most out there, despite the fortune telling "I-told-you-so-er's" on this forum.

At the time, the IPG was just another pilot body. In fact if I recall correctly, your status was as unpopular then as it is now. The fact that we (read AIPA) should have eaten humble pie and accepted you into the organisation to ensure your present deal was better than it now is, and thereby protecting our future is now moot. It is done.

BUT. Each individual is responsible and accountable for their own actions. The question remains. Why did YOU (read IPG) offer to fly the A320 on the same terms as the 717. For me, that is unforgiveable.

Douglas Mcdonnell

21st May 2004, 22:29

YOu must be getting a hell of a saddle rash prop. THe old high horse has been ridden hard recently.

proplever

21st May 2004, 23:01

Bit sore 'round the crutch, mate, but for different reasons!

You didn't answer MY question, DM. Why do you think that AIPA should have welcomed the IPG with open arms two and a half years ago? Without using the value of 20/20 hindsight...

ftrplt

21st May 2004, 23:12

BA Pay Deal (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131122)

DirectAnywhere

22nd May 2004, 07:59

Originally posted by DM explain why Aipa shunned the pulse guys 2 and a half years ago. No DM I can't explain why that happened either. And I'm sorry it happened. I, and 2000 other members, didn't know about it at the time and, as they say, AIPA is only as strong as its members.

I, and I believe the majority of AIPA members, believe that the time has come to rectify the mistake. AIPA should have coverage of all pilots in the QANTAS group and beyond. This includes regionals, anyone who's passed the QANTAS recruitment process and, I hope, anyone flying any aeroplane in Oz.

Rather than keep bitching and cussing at each other let's focus on what we all want (decent jobs at decent pay) and direct our efforts towards management who continue to want to push our conditions down.

I've never been big on unions but after my time in aviation I see the need for them is as pressing as ever.

Up the proles!!;)

scud_runner

22nd May 2004, 08:41

What I find ridiculous about the whole 'Low Cost' thing with Jetstar is that all the qualifed jobs, such as Pilots, FA, Load Controllers etc are all getting below what would be considered a industry standard.

YET the baggage handlers are on the same deal as they are with QF!!! What an absolute disgrace!!!! Just goes to show that Qantas Management aren't as tough as they are making out to be and will only get away with as much as the staff will let them when it comes to wages. They sttod together behind the union and they get the same money as if they were loading a QF 737.

Anyway it's all been said before but becuase Pilots cannot get together and act as a collective group they will end up getting paid less than the baggage handlers. In some sectors it is happening already.

I wonder if Allan Joyce is getting 'low cost' wages too??

bonvol

22nd May 2004, 09:27

Thats because they are in a union that knows how to look after its members, the TWU.

HGW

22nd May 2004, 09:48

I am interested in knowing what is the difference between loading a 737, 717 or a 320. Same with flying them. Isn't it the same job. If you make the same mistake you get the same consequence.

Not being narky, just interested.

bonvol

22nd May 2004, 10:16

Thats because they are in a union that knows how to look after its members, the TWU.

HGW

22nd May 2004, 10:22

Bonvol

What the!!!!

scud_runner

22nd May 2004, 10:50

Low Cost = Low Wages. That is the only difference!! All other costs will balance themselves out in time. As Jetstar (and Virgin for that matter) gets bigger there will be a rise in costs. It all looks you beaut now with a simple route structure and new aircraft. But as it gets bigger and expands costs will also have to rise. For Virgin their turnaround times will slow down as they take on transferring passengers and freight. Something that wasn't there at the beginning.

However by screwing the staff for all their worth that is one cost LCC have managed to keep down. Everything else will either be the same as 'legacy' carriers, or will rise over time. For example you won't get a cheap, fuel, parts, aircraft, simulators, landing fees, terminal fees, enroute charges etc etc etc just 'cause you want to be a low cost carrier. You will be paying the same as everyone else if not more if your volumes aren't that high.

Terminal Fees are something that Virgin has been bitching about the last year. They appear to have the attitude that they should get a discount just because they are a LCC.

Noone except the stupid staff will reduce their fees/wages/charges just because you want to be a low-cost carrier.

Just out of interest what will the guys be getting that load the bags compared to pilots?????!!!!!!!!!

HGW

22nd May 2004, 11:22

scud-runner

Virgin already handle transferring pax and freight and have done since almost day one. In fact last Wed they shipped 20 tonnes out of SYD for the day.

When have Virgin been bitching about terminal fees. I haven't heard anything since before they moved in to SYD T2 over 18 months ago.

I asked what is the difference between flying and loading a 717, 737, 320. Being LCC makes no difference in the actual tasks. The answer is there is no difference so why are there different rates of pay.

scud_runner

22nd May 2004, 12:39

HGW

Frieght was not in place at Virgin from day one, in fact it only came in until a few years after startup.

Virgin kicked up a massive stick over the cost of the Sydney terminal. Brett Godfrey was constantly wining over the cost of operating there. This whinging continued into this year with Virgin Bluing about the NCC decision on the Sydney Terminal.
Check out
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117211&highlight=Virgin+Sydney+Terminal

That was Jan 30 this year!! Hardly years ago.

Transfers between flights become more complex as your network grows. This also can affect on time performance as the flights are delayed waiting for connections.

The reason that wages at LCC are lower than other carriers is because the staff let them be that way. If ALL the staff stood together then then there would not be a problem. Unfortunately Pilots are unable to stick together and as a result wages are commencing a downward spiral for a job that has unbelievable levels of responsibility, performance monitoring, lifesyle distruption and medical restrictions compared to most others.

HGW

23rd May 2004, 05:02

Scud

First piece of commercial freight travelled on a Virgin flight exactly two weeks after the innaugral flight, not years later as you say. Currently averaging 115 tonnes per week out of SYD and 100 tonnes into SYD.

The whinge at terminal costs in January was backed up by QF and Rex as they are all worried the charges will spiral upwards without any checks. Are QF and Rex whingers also?.

Connecting flights and transferring pax have been operating for over three years. I think they should have worked it out by now.

VB staff are now the second highest paid staff next to QF with some positions on equal pay rates. Have a go at Express Ground Handling, Jetstar and Rex (Aerocare) for low pay. Remember, no one is forced to work at these places, they choose to. Lets all stand together, as you say, and price ourselves off the market or make it unsustainable like Ansett staff did.

You comment on things you obviously do not know about and still haven't answered my question. Why should there be different pay scales for the 717, 737, 320.

proplever

23rd May 2004, 08:24

So, should I bother asking what happened to the "calling a spade a spade" thread?

Let me guess. Someone from Jetstar decided that vitriol against those who would dare to question him wasn't quite enough, and went over the top?

scud_runner

23rd May 2004, 09:14

HGW

I can not find any press release or heard of any comment from QF on whole terminal issue. Virgin are the only people who have been publicly complainuig about moving into the old Ansett terminal.

As for freight if you reckon that VB had freight from day one then that has been a very well kept secret. Their website used to say VB didn't handle freight but will be in the future. From what I know they didn't have freight for a while but you are obviously better connected than I.

As for connecting pax I'm not saying that VB don't do it well all I'm saying is that by having connecting pax then this can effect your ontime performance. One reason Jetstar won't be doing it at this stage.

AS for the different pay scales well that just comes down to what each individual group negotiates for. I think that the guys at Jetstar have probably undersold themselves a tad, and in hindsight maybe should have stood up to management a bit like baggage handlers did.

Traditionally speaking aircraft pay scales went up as the MTOW increased. This roughly represents an increase in responsibility of the PIC. It is also an issue of economy of scale ie there are more people to pay for the 747 caprtains hourly wages than the pax in a Dash 8.

At the end of the day my point is that LCC sound all great now but as they grow and mature then they become like a traditional airline which effectively means that they haven't succeeded in being a LCC but just an easy way of driving everyones wages except for senior managements through the floor.

aresti

23rd May 2004, 09:45

I think that the guys at Jetstar have probably undersold themselves a tad

...a tad ! Jeez mate there is 140+ of 'em and they didn't even try to get any more.

Adama, with your constant histrionics and condescending attitude, I think that it is you that needs to grow up a little........ matey ! You'll find Proppy has the support of the silent majority.

balance

23rd May 2004, 19:12

Proplever. Aresti is quite correct. There are many of us out here who have neither the time nor the inclination to argue this, but we do reflect generally what you are saying. Our pay is on a downward spiral and our fellow pilots are doing nothing to stem the tide. They will reap what they sow, but unfortunately, so will we.

Guys like adama (I note that your last post blasting proppy was deleted - I assume by Woomera), do absolutely nothing to help the cause. They come across as churlish, immature and obnoxious. Adama and all of you who care to critisise without adding to the discussion, when will you realise that proplever et al's comments will help you in the long run? He seems to me to be highlighting the situation that we are all in.

And guys n gals? IMHO, this is not about QF vs DJ vs JQ. This is about the leaky boat in which we all sail precariously. It's about to take on more water, real soon, unless we do something about it.

My 2 cents worth.

itchybum

23rd May 2004, 20:29

How do a silent majority demonstrate support on an internet forum??? :confused:

proplever

23rd May 2004, 22:30

They do it very, very quietly, Itchy.

Nice to see your contribution deleted, adama. Like I have previously stated, personalities like yours should be regarded as extremely suspect in an airline cockpit. Matey... you must realise that your argument just doesn't stand up when all you do is throw vitriol at anyone who has the impunity to say what you do is wrong?

At the end of the day my point is that LCC sound all great now but as they grow and mature then they become like a traditional airline which effectively means that they haven't succeeded in being a LCC but just an easy way of driving everyones wages except for senior managements through the floor.

Exactly right, scud. You guys in the IPG should attempt to understand this point. In the end, you are doing the exact same job as your QF bretheren. So, are they being paid to much? Or have you guys jumped in and undermined the whole system?

Douglas Mcdonnell

23rd May 2004, 23:00

Proplever. I guess you would take responsibilty for jet connect getting up and going. Obviously you didnt stand up for you rights then. Note: they are payed less than Jet* pilots. Did your inactions, as a group, directly contribute to your frazzled state now?

OH thats right I forgot that you dont actyually enter into debate here anymore. As a well known sydney radio personality does, you dictate terms to other parties. Keeping the dream alive lever?

proplever

24th May 2004, 00:45

I use brylcream, DM. Means I never get frazzled. And, yep, you're right. Jetconnect is a woeful state of affairs too. But, wait. I did complain bitterly to AIPA when that occurred. Though AIPA's performance is another thread in itself, really.

Not entering into debate any more? Nah, thats my old self. Now I'm back to mending the worlds problems. Like, Jetstar and Jetconnect, and stuff like that...

ginjockey

24th May 2004, 07:34

I'm not trying to wind anyone up here but salaries of $85000 and $129000 are actually not too bad I thought. I think the mistake that a lot of you make is to get shirty when some expat signs a pay deal in Asia worth four times more than a local LCC pilot is offered. Big deal. Every country and airline are different. There is no reason for every pilot expect to get the same thing. In the same way, pilots jump into jobs in A320's in Europe with 215 hours total time. Do you see that happening here? Not a chance. Don't compare chalk with cheese. My view is that if you are on $100K in Australia then you are doing OK. Want more money and think you deserve it? Put your money where your mouth is, pack up and go fly for someone that will pay you what you reckon you deserve. Good luck.

That's my two cents well spent anyway.

Woomera

24th May 2004, 09:46

So, should I bother asking what happened to the "calling a spade a spade" thread?I have moved the thread to Admin.

Let me guess. Someone from Jetstar decided that vitriol against those who would dare to question him wasn't quite enough, and went over the top?On the contrary, Proplever, the thread was degenerating into a "push me, shove you" ala the 1989 threads of the past, which is very tiresome for the majority of people that visit here (as well as us moderators). If you bothered to look at the thread before I moved it, I warned one of your many adversaries, commander adama about getting personal.

Furthermore, I have not shown favour to anyone from Jetstar (or anywhere else) in my moderating of these threads. As a matter of fact, this Woomera (Eastern States) is also under pressure by the creation of Jetstar, but not on the QF "mainline" side of the scales. Therefore, the effect on me and my colleagues is greater than the effect on you and yours, Proplever.

The long-short of it is that if you people can't behave like adults toward each other and sort out your differences, then threads that follow this line of degenerating to personal infighting are either going to be closed or deleted. End of story.

Take your grievances to QREWROOM, post under your real names and see how long they (or you) last. Wake up to yourselves.

Woomera Eastern States

itchybum

24th May 2004, 11:12

So what happens when a thread goes into "ADMIN"? We never see it again? Why not just delete it?

Serious question to the protagonists:

Do you, on either side, feel you're getting anywhere with the on-going diatribe here on prune?

One hopes so.

Shitsu-Tonka

24th May 2004, 11:18

Imagine you are a Dixon, Joyce or Godfey and you have just read this thread.

What would you be thinking?

(For those who don't get my point : you do yourselves no favours here)

flyingcircus

24th May 2004, 20:30

there does seem to be two sides of the coin here, and more often then not arguments give way to constructive dialogue. i am curious what would it take for say qantas, jetstar and virgin blue to have some sort of loosely based committee of sorts, i am of the understanding that qantas and jetstar are curently in talks, but what about virgin blue as well, the way i see it is that in the australian domestic market that if everyone was getting a similar wage then the powers that be have very little argument to try and undercut wages, perhaps this would mean some sort of pay cut to qantas and a pay rise to virgin and jetstar, now i know that a lot of people from qantas would diagree with this, but would it not give quicker promotion and security to your job for the longer term. it does seem at the moment that qantas pilots do have there back to the wall, but further alienation of jetstar would seem only to play right into managements hands. further more i do not know of any details but there is one world alliance and star, why is there not some sort of (dare i say the word) union between these groups, if it is okay for the company and the ceo's then why not for the pilots?
this is only my opinion and please can no one come back with, but if it was'nt for jetstar or why did the union not take jetstar under there wing earlier blah blah blah. please the thread started out on a good note, can we keep it this way.

:ok: :ok:

ia1166

24th May 2004, 21:03

Interesting that my post on page 2 seems to have been removed so i'll repeat it. What are the pay scales, and are they going to hire direct entry captains on the 320. I would gladly give up a large tax free sand pit salary to have the chance of coming home. I would like the world but i settle for a lot less.
and before any qa crew stab at me, try having to work 5000 miles from home for a living.
and one for the moderator who removed my earlier post. Why?

spinout

24th May 2004, 22:15

Propy,
National Jet read Airlink have been operating Jets under contract to Qantas for some years now, have you seen the pay and conditions they work under! It all started long long ago and AIPA are the ones to blame, they have ignored the progression and coverage issues for a so long it has now come back to bite them, they have to seek coverage of all Qantas pilots, if that means swallowing some pride and doing a deal with the AFAP then so be it, that will at least insure a better future for all Australian pilots.
:cool:

Woomera

24th May 2004, 22:46

Itchybum,
moving a thread to Admin may be done for several reasons. Among these may be:

1. To allow a "cooling off" period for all concerned. By doing this, the thread can be re-instated at a later date, either as-is, or after Moderator input.

2. To allow a determination by Head Office if there are legal implications, which happens from time-to-time. Head Office may choose to delete the thread or take other action.

Dunnunda has been closed a couple of times as a result of threads going off on similar vitriolic tangents. We are trying to avoid this happening again.

Capice?

Woomera (Eastern States)

Chuck Magutzup

25th May 2004, 21:44

Been watching this thread for a while now. Time for my say.

Why do people attack Qantas after being turned down during their recruitment process. How is it that every person who is turned down by Qantas states categorically that the recruitment process is flawed. I know several people working for Jetstar who were turned down by Qantas, and from what I can tell, for very bloody good reason. These guys were useless. So, apart from finding these guys suitable on one pay scale, and not another, how is Qantas to blame for that? Now you may have some people working for you who are good operators. But you have some absolute clowns and rejects too. Yeah, so does Qantas I hear you say.

You Impulse blokes scream blue murder when propplever or Pete Conrad or someone has a go at you, but have you stopped to think about your situation? A significant percentage of you have been turned down by Qantas. Dont even bother telling me thats not true. It is. So, if you can't see why they are pi$$ed off at you for undercutting them, and pi$$ed off at the company for accepting it, then you will all suffer the consequences. And those consequences are sh1tful pay for the rest of your career.

As far as your rejects are concerned? Well, you really have to believe that if an airliner is going to have an accident in Oz, its going to be with you lot. Yeah, Qantas found a golf course, thats what you are going to remind me right? Watch this space. Jetstar and the A320 is not an airline that I'll be putting my family on.

Dont be at all surprised when AIPA members vote against you blokes joining, and vote against the 1 in 3 slots deal that seems to have been struck. I don't know of anyone who intends to vote yes.