A/c unsure of position - A/G acting like Radar Unit!

[fireflybob]

The scene at a midlands GA airfield today with Air/Ground facility.

A/c calls up inbound on a qualifying cross country unsure of position - "I can see etc..." A/G facility then starts issuing "instructions" - "Do a 180 to the left then etc..." assisted by airborne local aircraft with instructor on board also giving unsolicited advice etc.

My hair stood on end as I listened to all this. Said student pilot then say he has identified the airfield - I butt in and say, "Are you sure it isn't XXX?" and then strongly advise the A/G facility to suggest that inbound lost aircraft calls adjacent CTR/CTA with radar for assistance. This was then done and aircraft located and given steers to overhead etc.

I was appalled that the A/G facility took it into their heads to even attempt to assist whilst lost aircraft might be violating controlled airspace etc.

Any comments?

[tacpot]

Given the proximity of Controlled Airspace and available radar service, the A/G should have recommended the Pilot call the controlling frequency straight away, but it's not easy to push someone away when they are asking for help. Well done for recommending the correct course of action.

Hopefully the student will have learnt a valuable lesson about what to do when uncertain of position near controlled airspace.

[Chilli Monster]

Unfortuanately it's a natural, human reaction to 'try and help'. Although not condoning it (I'm as appalled as you) it's going to happen when you have people fulfilling a position without the background knowledge and training that those of us in the 'professional world' have.

I would suggest a quiet word to both the instructor and the A/G operator, appraising them of a) the legal consequences if they'd got it wrong, and b) maybe a chat session informing them of who would have been in a better place to render assistance (adjacent ATC with radar, or even D&D on 121.5) than themselves.

If they don't take it on board then there's little else you can do - but you might be lucky and prevent it happening again.

[sickBocks]

Midlands A/G trying to act like a radar unit on a Sunday...

Where could that be? Lucky he got a word in.

[TheJaywalker]

Your description matches an event overheard on RT whilst taking off from a midlands GA field on Sunday. If we're talking about the same one, it was AFIS not A/G, doesn't excuse what happened tho.

The student pilot did sound in a real panic. In defence of the instructor (who had just taken off into the busy circuit), the FISO hadn't asked the student for his altitude so the instructor, worried about the student blundering into the circuit at circuit height, intervened to try to determine his altitude, he also suggested that the FISO ask the student to call 121.5, which the student duly did. My impression was that the instructor's intervention was prompted by the lack of effective action from the FISO.

I have to say the FISO was petty poor. As I returned to the same field 1.5 hrs later the circuit was still busy and I had to go-around as someone popped out of nowhere and called final for the same runway just after me. He was asked by the same FISO what his position was in relation to me and called "in front of and below" (I had no other aircraft in front or below and had not seen any other traffic as I descended along the base leg). As I was now in doubt about the other aircraft's position I chose to go around. Didn't catch the other aircraft reg so couldn't speak to him later about what happened.

It was amazing how much better our traffic awareness was once the FISO left the tower and the airfield returned to A/G.

[fireflybob]

The Jaywalker, thanks for your input but I don't think we are talking about the same location!

I don't want tp reveal the identity of the aerodrome concerned but it was definitely A/G and I am sure Chilli Monster knows where I am refering to!

Generally the unit is intelligently managed but this incident made my hair stand on end. I get very worried when people don't seem to appreciate how they can be affected by liability and potential lawsuits!

Equally bad, whilst writing, are those pilots who arrive at an airfield served by A/G, AFISO obviously expecting some form of control service - hardly a week goes by without one hearing "Am I cleared to join right base, etc?".

I never ask for joining "instructions" at these airfields since the operator is not entitled to give you any instructions - all you are asking for is "information".

Then we had a transit call up asking for "conflicting traffic" on a nice VFR day. They seem to think that even if they can see the one aircraft they have been told about that there is nobody else out there! Keep a good lookout, I say, at ALL times.

Equally useless is to be told there is "circuit traffic" - a simple system in the tower would be able to at least tell us "there are three REPORTED in the circuit". Otherwise we would be better off without any radio at all!

Rant over - pith helmet donned.

[TheJaywalker]

Yikes, you mean that this type of incident occurred at more than one airfield on the same day :uhoh:

Your description matched so closely to the event I witnessed that I assumed we were talking about the same location. Sorry to "muddy the waters".

I must confess that its was only after getting my PPL and gaining wider experience of A\G/AFIS/ATC that the true distinction between them became clear (having trained at a weekday A\G, weekend AFIS field). My experience on Sunday suggested that the presence of the FISO, and the many and varied interpretations of what a FISO can/can't do by the pilots, added to the general confusion and it was only after the AFIS service terminated and the field switched to unmonitored A\G that the pilots "sorted" themselves out.

[whatunion]

interesting to read your posts regarding afiso and a/g.

one of the reasons i stopped instructing was when an islander flew underneath us downwind in the circuit of a midlands airfield.(sounds like the same one)
there had been no warning or traffic info from the a/g person.
more worryingly the islander pilot didnt even see us!!!!

on another occ at the same airfield a twin pilot was cleared,, yes cleared, to join on the deadside base leg. my student on the correct base leg had to turn right to avoid a collision. the twin pilot was adamant that he had right of way because he had been cleared by the a/g person, a spotty teenager of around 15.

then as now pilots need to understand the limitations of the a/g afiso service, its every man for himself seemingly!

on the other side of the coin, i fly a passenger jet transport and the standard of traffic information at some regional airfields is sometimes worse than a club airfield.

favourite is coming off app freq onto twr with no traffic info, no position in traffic etc. as we need a bit more room to manoevre it can be a bit embarrasing at times and dangerous.

best advice for both me and you is keep your eyes open, lookout is more important than flying a perfect circuit! also be aware of all radio calls and build up a picture of what is going on, ALL controllers can make mistakes, dont rely on ATC.A/G of AFISO.

my old boss had a good saying, never rely on one man one instrument or one engine!

PS
i was recently told that airfield manager of the above mentioned airfield, a bankrupt secondhand car dealer(say no more) who seemingly had his hand in the till has now fled the country. as this individual was one of the biggest dickheads i have come across in aviation and chiefly responsible for the poor airfield standards, i say three cheers!

[Chilli Monster]

i was recently told that airfield manager of the above mentioned airfield, a bankrupt secondhand car dealer(say no more) who seemingly had his hand in the till has now fled the country.

In which case you and FireflyBob are NOT talking about the same airfield

[fireflybob]

Chilli Monster, I agree - definitely NOT!

[whatunion]

yes your correct but the Bard would no him well!!!!