unions

[frozen fisherman]

I hope I don't sound like a total moron but what is the story with pilots union at CX? Is it required to join, does mgt try to sway you into not joing, does the union offer much protection?
What percentage of pilots are union members?
Thanks

[shortly]

Probably a good stir but hear goes. 1. No. 2. No. 3. No. 4. About 50% (maybe just under).

[The Fan Man]

So the Ban was lifted in order to assist CX through the difficult time of SARS , IFALPA lifted this ban as requested by the HKAOA in order to help the company through difficult times and remove any barriers that may restrict negotiations.

With SARS out of the way, CX making loads of money when will the recruitment ban be re-introduced? Or was it dropped in recognition that it was an ineffective way of trying to support the 49’ers. "swept under the carpet so to speak"

Considering that the 49’ers still haven’t been re-employed by CX, and pilots are still joining doesn’t that make everyone a new joiner? Replacement workers call it what ever?

Pilots joined under the ban, pilots joined post ban at the end of the day it has been a waste of time , it’s done nothing but alienate your work colleagues and again show a lack of rationale by the committee.

Stop differentiating between groups and draw a line in the sand guys , or move on with a clean slate.

My two bobs worth.

[jtr]

A quick review of shortly's posting history may reveal where his opinion lies in relation to the union. Probably worth bearing in mind whilst reviewing his answers.

[Schrodingers Cat]

That comes under the heading of a personal insult, as you well know. As you say, a Yellow Card, the next one will be a ban, sin-bin period to be dedcided
Cheers, BE.

[shortly]

Ok, I am pro company, sorry for that if you like. I have been around the place long enough to know know that the grass is not greener on the other side of the street. Also that unions run by well intentioned amateurs inevitably cause pain to the membership. Cathay is not under any definition perfect, but, it is a darn site better than anywhere else that I have been. Have you been unemployed? ADD's and roster inequalities pale to insignificance against mortgage payments and food bills. I am still sorry for the 49ers a group of guys sacrificed for union ineptitude. A good bottom line works for all of us. Where else is there an airline with the profit results of CX? That is a compliment to us all, management and hoi palloi alike. Lets pull together for goodness sake.

[Schrodingers Cat]

What an odd sort of mind you must have shortly....

1. The '49'ers' were not 'sacrificed' they were ILLEGALLY SACKED BY CATHAY PACIFIC MANAGEMENT.

2. The HKAOA did not do this THE CATHAY PACIFIC MANAGEMENT DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The destruction of these guys careers lies solely in the intimadatory tactics of an outdated 'colonial' management style, including making sure they never worked in Hong Kong again. No matter how you wriggle and squirm to suck up to this lot ......for reasons known only to your own black little heart, these are the facts.........:yuk:

[Five Livers]

Hi Schrodingers Cat, any news of the UK 49ers court case?

[BusyB]

Thanks SC very succinctly put.

[shortly]

Once again I agree with the Pussy. My 'odd mind' actually works and can consider things logically. The 49ers were the end result of many years of union belligerence and were martyrs to union ineptitude. There is no other way to dress it up. Illegally sacked, in Hong Kong, they were not. At CX we are all on three month notice contracts both ways. When you talk about supposedly honourable people illegally and fraudently reporting in sick at the last moment before a flight, especially where there is no reserve cover, in a supportive fashion; then perhaps the 'odd mind' is not actually restricted to me alone. And I am not black, even if I were, all hearts are a sort of rust colour.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Nice try at playing the race card shortly...I wouldn't expect anything else from you. As for the illegal sacking, it has been openly admitted by the management side that the procedures in place before a sacking, and as required by Hong Kong employment law, were not adhered to....which might explain why some 49'ers have received a letter attempting to explain their sacking....only 2 years too late.
Unfortunately shortly I don't think you'll find even the most abject apologist would accept your case for the AOA sacking these guys, except 411a of course, and the mere fact that you can automatically be lumped in with him only underscores the pathetic inadequacy of your argument........:yuk: :ouch: :ugh:

[shortly]

Dear Pussy, I have on any number of occasions - as you well know - stated that I did not agree with the companys decision to arbitrarily dismiss the 49ers. I do, however, understand the rationale behind that decision. This thread has perhaps opened up old wounds. Whilst there is at least a facade of discussion between CX and the disunion, wouldn't it be better to stay coy and let nature and the courts have their say? Any attempt at jocularity is of course lost on you, anyway sticks and stones etc.

[Recapitulate]

So if I get hired by Cathay Pacific this summer, will I be considered a scab?

What if I return to my furloughed domestic airline...will ALPA scab me??

serious question.

[Oasis]

Absolutely not.

[VR-HFX]

Having ripped the scab off the old festering sore again it is perhaps time to reveal the paradox of Schrodinger's Cat or in the this case Schrodinger's Pilot.

It goes as follows:

Put a pilot in an aluminium chamber which also contains a bean counter.

Put a small amount of radioactive material in the beancounter. Also introduce a phial of hydrocyanic acid. If the isotope decays it will break the phial of poison. In the course of one hour it is possible that the atom will have decayed thus killing the pilot. It is also possible that the atom has not decayed. Therefore at any given time the pilot is both alive and dead at the same time.

This kind of paradox appeals to twisted aviator grey matter since opening the aluminium chamber to outside factors renders the experiment void.

So in summary, don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up. I am both alive and dead and do not need external factors confusing me.

The final cartoon in the series below is the give away. I have seen that uniform before somewhere...Shelter Cove Yacht Club about 5 Xmas' ago??

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/s/schrodingers_cat.asp

[Schrodingers Cat]

Obviously, my reply has to be that there is a probability that it may or may not have been me...................but boy! those heels were a killer ..........:}

[VR-HFX]

Aaarrgh

Now we are getting close.

Back to the days of Paddy. Andy, George McB et al...and the high heels were definitely not a good look for the flat feet, rudder dependent amateurs like yourself..and dare I say myself.

SC...always remember...what joins us is far greater than what divides us.

For all my years and ossified thought processes, I leave with my simplistic view that the AOA built it's own redundancy by bringing in professional union people with no understanding of the reality of HK but a totally receptive audience of folk brought up in union cultures .

The only analogy I can offer is the HK poitical scene. The cry for democracy forgets the reality and prosperity of a totally un-democratic past.

The shots were/are/have never been called by PS/RE/DT but by one AS.

As I have always said and have had reconfirmed from the horse's mouth...if we had not decided to collectively (aka via AOA) publicly call him an unfit person to run our airline, the whole sorry case would not have happened. CX was AS's baby and he took personal pride in what it achieved and showed his appreciation via financial reward. The minute the dog insulted and then bit the benefactor, the rules changed.

Take my opinion for what you think it is worth but I hope you do not doubt the sincerity with which it is offered.

Sure times have changed but be in no doubt as to who still runs the company.

[Schrodingers Cat]

I agree with you entirely sir, but remember being called a 'millionaire moron'? by a certain biffa?;)