BALPA Member? -Check out the 'Captain's' pay

[dakeages]

Chris Darke, General Secretary of BALPA, has done very well in the pay stakes in recent years.

Check out http://www.geocities.com/new_road_nonsense/indexV2.htm

for details.

[The Guvnor]

Don't Balpa members - like shareholders - have the right to okay pay increases for their Executive? If they do, then I must say that those - very hefty - percentage increases are rather eyebrow-raising to say the least. If not, then more fool them for not having brought the necessary motions to change the situation.

[crewrest]

After what BALPA has done in Virgin this week, he deserves it.

Then again it may all be a deck chairs on the titantic job.

[xyz_pilot]

Out of interest what have BALPA been able to do for the pilots at virgin?

But in general if you pay peanuts you get ****. I need good representation not cheep.

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: xyz_pilot ]

[sirwa69]

There are loads of highly experienced, good pilots (Expats) working in the Middle East for an equivalent salary of about 60-70K GBP. And thats the Captains.
Can anyone explain why then someone doing the same job is entitled to earn 150K +. I understand that there are quite a few senior Nigels on that kind of money. Why?. Retire them and use the money to help keep the company afloat, maybe even train lots more young pilots to get the supply and demand equation back in the employers favour.
:(

[swede-basher]

SIRWA69, your argument does not stack up. You seem to fail to consider the fact that the "Senior Nigels" are paying tax in the 40% bracket and N.I these two deductions do not apply to those working in the Gulf. Apples and Oranges spring to mind.

[xyz_pilot]

Sirwa69

I dont work for BA but from what I hear 150k is a long way off. The top 2 or 3% of the list who choose to go al out for money at the expense of a life may get to 150k.

The average mid list Capt makes less than 100k and less than that if they what a home
life. Thats to live in a high cost part of a high cost country and after 15 years in the
company. Yes its a good wage but not in my opinion unreasonable for a professional
person with a responsible job in a large company. Most of there neighbours will be on
a similar package in their non air transport job.

Why do you think pilots should get less than the going rate for a responsible
professional job in the UK???

Over to you sirwa69 for your reasons why UK based pilots should take a pay cut

[sirwa69]

Swede-Basher
I did say "equivalent salary of about 60-70K GBP". I took what an average Captain earns out here and added on 40% to cover to tax and NI paid in UK. So work out in cash terms including rent allowance and school fees etc it is actually less than 50k GBP. I have not included allowances.

Btw where I come from we call them Turnips.

xyz_pilot
I was actually referring to the top 2-3 % of Senior Nigel’s. I may well have to be corrected but my understanding was that there were a few at the top of the seniority ladder who were making up to 180k without the need to work all hours. I was not referring to the mid level boys (and girls) who I was actually trying to protect by making a suggestion that could help BA cut costs.
This graph was posted on another thread by gas path
BA manpower numbers and employee costs

AREA..................NUMBERS...........COSTS

Head office............5%...............7%
Cargo..................5%...............5%
Sales and marketing...12%..............11%
IM.....................4%...............4%
Engineering...........15%..............13%
Airports..............24%..............17%
Cabin Services........28%..............25%
Flight Operations......7%..............18%

You will notice that Flight Operations has a disproportionately high cost against numbers. My suggestion that by cutting the highest earners (which would not affect the Mid level guys) they could bring the proportions to a more level position at the cost of the least number of jobs.

Hope that is clearer.

edited to fix spelling mistakes
:)

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: sirwa69 ]

[The Guvnor]

Ummm, people, I think the point being made by The_Darke_Ages is that Chris Darke, the 'captain' of BALPA, has been getting pay increases well in excess of inflation (like five or six times) on an ongoing basis.

If you want to debate crew pay, can I suggest you check out Cruel to be Kind? (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016102&p=)

Saves Danny some bandwidth!

[xyz_pilot]

So you cut the 180k people (if there are more than 10 of them I would be VVVery
amassed) then the 140k people are "very over paid", then the 120k, 100k. And how much does the top burger flipper at McD make?

There is always some one at the top of any scale, my point is that the scale for BA
pilots is not out of proportion to finance, personnel, marketing etc managers in the
Southeast of the UK

[thegirth]

The high figures for BA Captains are for a tiny minority of "Draft Kings". Most are on 55 - 80K plus allowances.

[Notso Fantastic]

Guvnerd....is there nothing you will not stick your nose in? I think we can do without yet another 'shoot from the hip opinion' from such a life failure as you! I think we can sort out our own union chairman pay without your input, but thank you.....now the door is over there!

[Budgie69]

I don't think any BA pilot could earn that sort of money. The top pay point after 24 years is around £90k.

[basil fawlty]

There always seems to be an element of envy with debates such as this.... most of those criticising the salaries that BA pilots earn would be the first to defend them if they were senior BA pilots themselves!! :rolleyes:
OK, a few at the top of the seniority list earn £140k, but it has taken them over 30 years to get there. The AVERAGE BA pilots salary is a lot less.
Conversely, there are also many who criticise the apparently low starting salaries. Well, all I can say there is that it filters out those who are not genuinely enthusiastic about the job. Regardless of debts and high cost of living the really keen people will endure a few years of low salary, and are ultimately rewarded with a career that many seem envious of, and a very good salary too!! Seems fair to me.
The real losers in the aviation game are the licensed maintenance engineers...If you have never done the job, you just can't appreciate how hard it can be. (I'm flying now and know which I prefer! :) ) Changing a 747 APU, outside, in the winter, at 3 in the morning....

[Hand Solo]

Basil you seem to be on a mission to moan about how badly paid maintenance engineers are. Just about every post of yours contains a hard luck story. Well I say low pay for the engineers weeds out the less enthusiastic ones. Really keen people will endure a few years of low salary (say 20) and be rewarded with a career that many may be envious of (the glamour, the foreign postings, the aeroplanes)! If the engineers are that disgruntled perhaps they could employ Chris Darke to negotiate a whopping pay rise for them. But on past performance I wouldn't recommend it. :p

Sirwa69 - that table of salaries you've published is misleading. The level of costs for flight ops is not 'disproportionate in the extreme'. The only way you'll see 7% of flight crew representing 7% of costs is if everyone in BA is paid the same. Unfortunately for BA managers, the going rate for flight crew is higher than the going rate for many backroom staff, and rightly so. Consequently the higher paid departments will represent a greater proportion of costs than they do manpower. If you don't like the Flight Ops figures, why not try to deduce the proportional cost of senior managers? Only 600 of them in 50000 staff, but at a cost starting at £60K + car each I think you'll see some interesting figures. And lets not overlook IM, who's figures seem reasonable, but only because they don't include contractors, some of whom cost sums you wouldn't believe per week! (And before you ask, yes, I have checked my facts and I know what BA are being charged for one very expensive consultancy team)

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]

[basil fawlty]

Hand Solo...

LAE's are, by rights, the top of the airline "food chain"...Its very simple, No LAE's = no servicable aircraft = no pilots, cabin crew, or anyone else for that matter!! It is about time they received the status and salary they deserve, but while they are represented by the same union that represents electricians/plumbers/car mechanics it ain't going to happen!!
Yes, you are absolutely right, maintenance engineers should receive a modest salary to start off with, but ONLY if the scale eventually progresses to something HALF DECENT, which it does NOT do at the moment. I believe that experienced LAE's are worth every bit as much as a senior captain, and should be paid accordingly!
I'm on the side of improved pay/conditions for ALL pilots and engineers, while many who post here are obviously not!! Looks like the "I'm alright jack, so f**k you" mentality is alive and well in the airline business!!

[Hand Solo]

Well we agree on something which is that the pay for experienced LEAs falls considerably short of what is required. (We both seem too spend too much time on PPRuNe as well, but thats for another day!). I do take issue with the idea that engineers are top of the food chain. Nobody is at the top of the chain, if you have no pilots, no cabin crew, no engs, even no admin people (dare I say it), you have no passenger airline. Thats a fact. I do think that LAEs should be suitably remunerated, they certainly shoulder more responsibility than a CSD and work in far more unpleasant environment. However I also think that pay should reflect responsibility, and this is where the argument that an LAE is worth a senior Captain falls down. As I stated in another thread, anyone who works on the ground has the option of walking away from a problem. The LAE even has the ultimate sanction of grounding an aircraft if he has a bad 'gut-feeling' about something. Thats not an option for the flight crew once airborne, they have to deal with the problem alone and out of reach of technical support. Its is that responsibility, and the requirement for initiative and lateral thinking outside normal procedures, which is behind the pay differential between flight crew and the LAE. You're a F/E so I'll ask you which is the more difficult decision? To get an aircraft flying safely, on time, within the letter of the law (which is much harder to do than grounding the ******), or to decide what to do and where to go whilst on-board a stricken aircraft, when all options are unappealing and equally likely to result in disaster?

[Capt Veeclean]

thegirth has put his finger right on the button. "Most are on 55 - 80K PLUS ALLOWANCES." It is well known that BA basic salaries are a relatively low proportion of their total pay - unlike many of us in the independent airlines. Just ask the "BALPA Captain"! Agreed, nowadays BA pilots work a little harder than previously (well, in short haul, anyway!), but it would be more useful to compare like with like, that is, nett pay with nett pay. Then we would see that the average independent pilot's total pay package is indeed similar to the BA basic salary. But don't forget those huge allowances!