View Full Version : Can Entropy Be Reversed???

11th May 2004, 17:31
Every since Boltzmann discovered that S=KlogW we, have been well aware that the universe is going to s***.

Do you think there are any situations in which it is possible for entropy to be reversed?

Can the moment just before inflation or the act of matter moving towards a singularity be considered as cases where the equation breaks down?

Do einsteins mechanics fully explain to you the nature of space-times relation to entropy?

When i look at 'Holiday junctions' during recombination in DNA, or the action of Tryrosine Kinases i understand that these processes require energy to give rise to organisation, and therefore contribute to the eventual heat death of the universe. But thinking about inflation, seems to pose a problem to me beacuse time did not exist (at the vvvvv start) so entropy can surely not exist?

Mind you i have my own idea on eventual fate of the universe, and expansion, has nothing to do with it.

Does anyone else think find themselves thinking about this stuff far to much?

11th May 2004, 17:45
According to the Laws of Thermodynamics, entropy, the measure of the disorder in a closed system, and its direction -- toward increasing disorder -- cannot be reversed. This theory is not in question, even when the nature of closed systems is at issue. The increase in entropy is contained in the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and effectively states that the arrow of time (time theoretically being one-directional) requires everything to proceed toward ever increasing chaos, such that all structures are ultimately doomed.

However, in an open system, there can be an influx of energy into the system capable of reinvigorating the structure -- in full accord with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Energy input can decrease entropy, and can simultaneously increase order. Furthermore, the more structured a system, the more energy is required to increase the structure, or even to maintain the status quo -- what in physics is termed “equilibrium”.


I have an itchy arse, so no, or maybe yes, but prolly not.

Have you got an itchy arse?


11th May 2004, 17:50
Usually around 1:30 in the morning after several pints, ss.

The usual weasely answer is that the laws of physics break down as you get towards a singularity, or if you go further back than about 10^-34 seconds after the big bang, so it's impossible to say what would happen.

The latest theory is that maybe the matter wasn't in a singularity at the big bang but was compressed into a finite size. Similar for black holes. Relativity predicts a singularity but doesn't take into account quantum effects that will inevitably occur when things get squished very small. This is what I've been saying all along.

Nevertheless, a black hole does have a very clearly defined entropy, related to its surface area (just ask Stephen Hawking) - so you can't get rid of entropy by chucking your rubbish into a black hole :(

11th May 2004, 17:53
Can the moment just before inflation or the act of matter moving towards a singularity be considered as cases where the equation breaks down? premature inflation is indeed a curse of the young:E


11th May 2004, 19:35
I agree fishtits, but what do u suppose of the period where time had yet to be created? pre 10^-34s post big bang? Maybe we can only speculate until they have more info on it.

Glad i've had response's to this. Damned if it's going to fall of the front page yet.

Yes my arse always itches, (only cos it's hairy, not beacuse of some sarcoptes scarabei mites or ouwt) i could get it waxed but that would be a bit gay.

tony draper
11th May 2004, 20:23
Best description I have heard of entropy, you buy a box with a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle of the Mona Lisa you open it up and there in the bottom all together with bits all in the right place your nice shiny jigsaw of The Mona Lisa smiling up at you,it is in a state of maximum negative entropy,it is organised, you close the lid and give it a good vigorous shake, open the lid, and poor mona lisa is in 500 disorganised disjointed pieces, now you have to shake that box until such time as all the pieces come together in the right place all connected you are asking is that possible?, the puzzle is a closed sytem, it has only one way of being organised one state of maximum negative entropy no matter how much you shake the box it is imossible for it to become as organised as it was, in fact it will become more disorganised the more you shake the box.
That is entropy, in other words, its all downhill, chaos will always triumph.


11th May 2004, 20:30
Let me see:



Easy! Next?

11th May 2004, 21:25
No, i'm suggesting that entropy must be reversible for certain circumstances. It has to be. Otherwise how would the initial state of order come about. Does anyone know what the value of S is for a singularity (supposing that the universe did come from a singularity)?

I don't want to attempt some mathematical proof yet, i've had to much beer.

We need more scientific discussion on JB. Breasts, Beer, American Football and Science. All you need.

Drinking. Stella Artois - Shame beacuse i need to write an essay on 'Molecular Processes of Neural sympathetic Vasoconstriction'. In for 2pm. As yet to write a single word.

11th May 2004, 22:31
Come use your brain power. These questions are important aren't they?

11th May 2004, 22:44
I ll have a pint of whatever ssultana is on!


make it a double! :)

11th May 2004, 22:48
Still Stella, 5th can. I can't go out tonight as i explained. Shame really cos i'm after a cute girl who has gone to a party at the 'Soul Cellar' - nightclub.

11th May 2004, 22:51
ssultana ... can't decide if you are serious/pi$$ed/or on a windup!

You re too serious for JB!

tony draper
11th May 2004, 22:59
I think you will find as we all have that S=KLOGW when you are confronted with your first unassemble flatpack Ikea bookcase will be of little help, a knowledge of multi dimentinal topographical vector spaces in a positively curved space time continuum would however assist you in your task.

11th May 2004, 23:02
I'm serious - about the initial question.

I'm serious - about wanting to b*** the girl

I'm p****d - As is any uni student after the suns over the yardarm.

6th can fo steeelaatroiss, no neera to doin foookin essay neirthr...

11th May 2004, 23:21

You talk naval terms but drink beer! Try the RUM! :ok:


11th May 2004, 23:31

Beer is the drink if men, today england is not defined by Beefeater outfits or the Royal Family, but by walking down the street supping stella, or playing playstation and eating curry.

MUCH respect for your being an NHS ambulance pilot though, only just checked your profile.

Think i've killed my own topic.

12th May 2004, 02:43
Entropy can and has been reversed. It's called Cracked Conch. A better question is should it be reversed?:yuk:

Rich Lee
12th May 2004, 06:11
IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP: never let anybody on prednisone handle the checkbook, run your department or post to this thread. (Am I the only one who remembers that scene in "Ishtar" where they mug C-3PO and R2 while crossing the desert?)

12th May 2004, 09:26

To ask what was before the BB is to accept the existence of time pre BB. You might get away with this by saying time existed, but with no possibility of sensing time. i.e. There was no tick or tock to time. The BB would be the first tick before tock.

Some people believe there was another universe before this. The previous must have been destroyed in some way or another forming the universal singularity. In the singularity physics do not exist (time is a part of physics).

Time cannot coexist with singular entity.
The physical universe is divided into two fundamental parts. One is space, another is mass. The most fundamental ongoing process between these two parts creates a process rate we see as... Time.

The singularity may not be completely singular. It may consist of two modes of the same quantum foam. These modes must be perfectly symmetrical but still very unstable. When the symmetry brakes, the foam curls up in huge numbers to forms two modes of embryonic matter. When these two modes react they start to produce what we observe as space. Then time is born with it, and the big bang takes place. The four fundamental forces start to work.

However, I think the real question we're asking here is " Is getting a back, sac and crack wax gay?" or "Does drinking six can of stella or a shag from a pretty girl" increase the essay writing ability of the average studo?

Hope you get the fcuker written b4 2pm btw :{

Best of luck


12th May 2004, 10:06
MUCH respect for your being an NHS ambulance pilot though, only just checked your profile

How I wish!!!!! Unfortunately I m not an ambulance pilot in the flying sense... work for ambulance service and I m a pilot (alledgedly) but not at the same time!


12th May 2004, 10:26
Does anyone know what the value of S is for a singularity (supposing that the universe did come from a singularity)? The entropy is proportional to the surface area of the event horizon surrounding the singularity.

According to t'Hoofts's holographic principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle): "Black holes are maximal entropy objects, so the entropy contained in a given region of space cannot be larger than the entropy of the largest black hole which can fit in that volume."

Hm. Sounds like the surface of my desk is about to collapse :eek: