Eurofighter Typhoon

[London Jets]

Now as the Typhoon is slowly and eventually here and is started to be delivered to RAF Squadrons, I was wondering what the verdict on this aircraft is?

I saw it for the first time at RIAT last year and I though it was a very impressive piece of kit.

LJ

[flyboy007]

It was...........about 10 years ago!

[pr00ne]

London Jets,

Er............ seeing as how they have only got 4 with the OEU at Warton, maybe a little premature in such questioning?

flyboy007,

Oh so wrong...............................

[emitex]

Have a look here (http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=c97298e425b2680b0d3612acce8e9cc6)

for aircraft in service details. Don't think there's too much first hand flying insight though...

[smartman]

London Jets

Don't expect too much of a serious respnse in early replies - the aircraft (more than 4, and ever increasing, you twit prOOne) are building up as you might expect. Let's not get into the spiral thread of 'about time/BWOS/better from the US/etc'. We're getting it - it'll be good - it'll be enduring (given Gov expenditure) -and I'll wager it'll be the yardstick of omni-role aircraft for many years to come. Not in the soon years, but from around 5 years or so hence. (Given Gov investment).

Could be a decent argumentative thread providing it doesn't develop into another silly knocking-shop.

[Magic Mushroom]

Word from 17 (F) Sqn is that they love it. Despite it still having numerous restrictions and bugs, they are very impressed so far and can't wait to get away from their BAe 'nannies'.

Apparently, a couple of Typhoons gave a pair of F-15Cs a real shock recently. However, this was only 'see and avoid' coz their not cleared for any ACT yet!;)

Regards,
M2

[pr00ne]

smartman, (irony?)

T'was 4 when I was up there, and that was VERY recently....................

[smartman]

prOOne (prune?)

I was trying to point out to you that there is more than one RAF Typhoon outfit at Warton, and that there ARE more than four jets on board, and that London Jets question was perfectly valid - and answerable (didn't you get to talk with the guys?) Let neither of us fall into the trap I allude to in my last sentence of my previous post!!

Cheers

[pr00ne]

smartman (?),

The point that I was trying to make was that the Typhoon is not entering service with Squadrons throughout the service. When I was at Warton there were 4 jets allocated to 17 (R) OEU. There were some folk for 29 (R) OCU hanging around and some BAES flown jets being used by all concerned.

Certainly spoke to lots of the guys, thats why I was there.

They do like it, they can't do all that much with it yet but that's all part of the plan.

Not Typhoon knocking.

[Jackonicko]

There's a disparity between numbers of aircraft handed over off PFAT and numbers accepted, and then there's the question of how many actually make it onto 17(R)'s line each day. I was chatting to a journo mate t'other day who's been asking BAE for a pic of four 17 Squadron jets together on the line for some time, and who was frustrated at their inability to provide such a thing.

But whether it's all four 17 jets and one 29 jet or a smaller number than that, it is too early to have any more than a very 'provisional' view of how the aircraft is doing.

It's certainly late. It's also very limited at the moment - no weapons, no helmet, no IRST, no DVI, (no real sensor fusion) and minor glitches are imposing temporary limits on ops. Quite what there is to OT&E is questionable. It's unlikely to be ready in time for the rescheduled squadron stand up dates. It's unlikely to have the required A-G capabilities by the time the Jag bows out.

BUT

It sounds as though it's a great flying machine, it's showing great promise in many areas, the radar's better than most of us dared expect at this stage, credible solutions to many of the problems are in place and the serviceability has allowed a phenomenal flying rate. Some catch-up is likely, and the aircraft may be very much more useful even by Summer 05 when it hits Coningsby.

And the problems it has are as nothing compared to those now afflicting the F-22 and JSF......


What does amaze me is the thought that because of all the delays, personnel from No.17 (R) are reportedly already being posted 'as originally scheduled before the delays' at a time which is now only partway through the OT&E process. Having invested millions in converting an officer to the Typhoon, and giving him the relevant experience to be (say) the CO or XO of this unit, with the intent that he would 'see the process through', I'm amazed that this nominal and entirely generic officer should not simply be extended in post to complete his job, rather than being posted out now.

It might be good for his individual career path (maybe spending an extra 18 months as OC/XO 17 would torpedo his chances of making Group Captain?) but as a tax-payer I'm scandalised because having to convert someone to take over a job like this seems like a massive waste of money, and represents a potential cause of further delays and problems. I'm also unconvinced that there's a massive pool of blokes with the right programme/project and flying experience to be able to do jobs on 17, and none will have had the exposure to the 'process so far' that the blokes now on the unit have gained.

I'm also astonished that with aircraft availability as it is, more weekend flying isn't being undertaken in order to make up for time lost earlier in the programme. It might be hard on the individual guys, but there are wider interests at stake, I'd have thought.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Weekend flying wouldn't fit in with the civvy engineers and their hours! Unless this has been solved since, I know some of the Techies that 1st went to Warton were 'concerned' over this required change to our business. The previous posts concern over cost would pale beside weekend overtime costs. Probably!

[Jackonicko]

Wouldn't late delivery penalties more than pay for such minor overtime costs then?

[ftrplt]

And the problems it has are as nothing compared to those now afflicting the F-22 and JSF......

and

It's certainly late. It's also very limited at the moment - no weapons, no helmet, no IRST, no DVI, (no real sensor fusion)

No weapons?? Seems to me then that it cant be that much better off than the F-22.

And just what are the original, planned in-service dates of these 3 aircraft then?


Lucky its a 'great flying machine' though.

[London Jets]

it seems like I've started a good debate here, I only asked about the aircraft because I don't know too much about it, that is apart from seeing it at RIAT last year when it put on a superb display. One of the most manouverable aircraft I have ever seen.

[soddim]

I have to agree with Jacko's point on the wastefulness of replacing expensively trained aircrew before their training costs have been amortised - no organisation for profit could afford to pursue the path the RAF takes. Almost the entire front line aircrew strength are retrained every 3 to 5 years and this has been going on since before 1970 solely to feed a pyramid career system that gives every aircrew a crack at making high rank. Most do not make it past Sqn Ldr but by that time they have been out of the front line so long that their skills have faded. If they get past Wg Cdr they will soon be lost forever as far as the front line is concerned.

If the service now needs to cut back it could do so to its' advantage by changing the career structure and leaving aircrew in the front line longer. What is wrong with professional aircrew and a suitable pay structure to tempt them to stay? There would still be room to put a few budding senior officers through the front line and the training costs would be minimised. The best motivated aircrew do not wish to be staff officers.

[Jackonicko]

ftrplt,

" it's showing great promise in many areas, the radar's better than most of us dared expect at this stage, credible solutions to many of the problems are in place and the serviceability has allowed a phenomenal flying rate."

That's the key point. Better radar performance than expected at this stage. No sorties lost to radar snags. Better than expected MTBF, lower than expected MMH/FH, etc. That's VERY different to F-22.

And the lack of weapons has more to do with the arcane procedures still being used in order to expant the RTS/MAR than with an inherent problem. Test aircraft have fired IRIS-T, Winder and AMRAAM, and have carried Paveway II. That's very different to F-22, too.

"Lucky its a 'great flying machine' though."

I don't want to nitpick with such a selective quoter (I said it "sounds as though it's a great flying machine" - how would a journo who hasn't flown it be able to say that it was - I can only pass on what people who have flown it have said). Presumably you think it would be a better aircraft if it was a sluggish, slow, unmanoeuvrable, tortoise that the pilots hated? You'll be pleased that the JSF which Oz has ordered is so dramatically overweight, but perhaps you should press for a STOVL JSF buy - that's even more bloated....

[ftrplt]

Jacko,

the point I was trying to make, and you haven't answered, is what are the comparable development timelines of the two aircraft (Typoon and F22, dont care about JSF) - when did both aircraft commence development and what was the planned in service dates.

THe F22 has fired weapons also, and I have also heard from operators, that it is a great piece of kit. I would suspect you (nor I) are in a realistic position to make a valid comparison between the two airframes, both on development issues and REAL TIME capability.

On JSF, my position is clear; I believe the RAAF fast jet force is going to be wheezing badly around 2010 and the JSF will be nowhere near its planned capability level for many years after that.

I believe the JSF will work well for the USAF as a second tier airframe, for the RAAF as a primary (and only) airframe it will suck royally. They will regret not buying F15E's in the late 90's.

[Jackonicko]

The original target dates for both aircraft are irrelevant, since the end of the Cold War allowed both programmes to be restructured and realigned. Depending on which figure you use, either aircraft could be claimed to be 'more late' than the other. Recent slippage has been broadly the same, however.

The F-22 may eventually be a great piece of kit. At the moment, however, it's royally plagued by unreliability (having only just achieved the modest MTBF goal set for it) and unserviceability, and is missing key capabilities, while the unit cost is still shooting through the roof.

All of the F-22 operators I've spoken too are extremely enthusiastic about the aircraft's potential and promise as a weapons system, but not one of them has offered any praise of the aircraft as it is today as a flying machine.

At least we agree on the JSF for Australia. It's not too late to change horses and buy a Typhoon or two, and by the time you get them, they will be a superb aircraft and weapons platform.

[ftrplt]

make that almost agree - F15E instead of Typhoon.

By the way, how is that ASRAAM thingy going??

[Jackonicko]

If only they'd integrated it properly (digitally) on a UK platform which had an HMS it's full potential you'd have seen how great it is....

[dada]

i've been to warton and it looks very nosey.

[maxburner]

ftrplt

I'm sure we know each other, were you in Oman with 5 on Saif Sarea?

I've flown the Typhoon. It is a phenomenal airframe/engine combination, way ahead of anything else flying. The radar works very well. It has fired AMRAAM and the first shot totaled the Mirach. Its also, still, a fraction of the price of an F22.

As for ASRAAM, its an amazing air to air weapon. The range is considerable, the fly-out speed is awesome and it is smokeless. It also has some very clever modes to counter flares and the like. I'd choose ASRAAM over any model of Sidewinder.

Yes, AUS should buy some Typhoons.

[Jackonicko]

And while I said 'no helmet' the same helmet IS now flying on Gripen, so it's not far away.

And the Meteor is looking good, too. Meteor promises to be a considerably more effective BVR weapon than AIM-120, and while a new US BVR weapon will almost certainly arrive, it's equally certain that the Yanks will export a much-'capped' version and will be as tight-@rsed about actually letting any out of their grip as they have been with AMRAAMs -

The F-111 replacement part of the Aussie requirement is a tough one, but Typhoon will meet it as well as JSF, and a Typhoon with conformals etc. may go even further towards getting all the necessary 'ticks in the boxes'.

[emitex]

Sir Jock Stirrup - RAF Chief of Air Staff
"I have been looking forward to it for a long time and it was hugely impressive - if I had a message for RAF personnel it would be 'if you can get on Typhoon - get on it!'”

Wg Cdr David Chan - OC 17(R) Sqn
”…..I am pleased with our progress under Case White since flying got underway, and look forward to getting into the full exploitation of the weapons system. But as a pilot, I have to say that its a pity that I'm coming to the end of my time flying fast jets - the young men and women now joining the RAF will have a ball flying Typhoon!"

Sqn Ldr Will Hockenhull - Flight Commander 17(R) Sqn
“Typhoon clearly shows much more potential as a weapon-system than F3; it climbs effortlessly to 40,000'+ in Max Dry power. The application of Reheat is noticeable by a near-instantaneous 'push' in the back”

[Navaleye]

Case White? Wasn't that the code word for the German invasion of Poland in'39?

[Archimedes]

Sssshhhhhh! No-one's supposed to mention that!

(There is, of course, also the [apocryphal?] tale that the name 'Cyclone' was mooted for the aircraft. 'Good idea' said everyone, until the German representative pointed out the connotations of translating this into German.... Back to the drawing board).

[smartman]

Re Typhoon/F15E/F111 and the RAAF.

Bearing in mind the primary deterrent role of the RAAF, there is nothing available to match F111 capability in terms of payload/range: survivability is another matter. However, Typhoon with SS and conformals would be capable of reaching Australia's traditional 'high agenda' target in a Hi-Hi profile. F15E would probably (?) be similarly capable. In other words, whilst neither Typhoon nor F15E have the legs of F111, their legs are quite long enough. And so what, given the RAAF's continued and improving AAR capability.

Typhoon is, in overall terms, cheaper than F15E, and significantly outlasses it in the A/A role. What, then, provides better value in terms of both capability and $?

Jacko, do I detect that you have modified your view that Gripen is a viable option for the RAAF?

[MobiusTrip]

Jacko,

"All of the F-22 operators I've spoken too are extremely enthusiastic about the aircraft's potential and promise as a weapons system, but not one of them has offered any praise of the aircraft as it is today as a flying machine"

None of those you spoke with praised it (as is is today) as a flying machine? That, to understate it, surprises me.

Mind you, I don't know what your exact definition of 'as a flying machine' is - do you mean in a pure 'poling' sense (BFM, Hi AoA, handling etc)?

All the best :-)

MT

[Jackonicko]

Mobius,

So was I. So was I. And yes, I suppose I do.

Smarty,

To an extent, though I think the aircraft would be useful as the 'low' element in a high:low mix both here and in Australia. Unless you need to operate from a carrier deck, the Gripen strikes me as an eminently sensible machine. Now flying with the Typhoon helmet, soon to have Meteor, and with some clever tricks planned to dramatically increase fuel capacity, the aircraft is the dog's doodads if you want a cheap, deployable, cheap-to-operate multi-role fighter.

And I gather that young Magnus does a mean demo flying the aircraft onto a deck in the Gripen sim..... ;)

[BEagle]

Archimedes - sorry, I made up the 'Cyclone' tale....

't Bungling Baron invited all and sundry to lunch at 't werrks and the topic of a name "Fer 't new aeroplane" came up.

'Tempest' and 'Hurricane' were unacceptable due to certain memories. So 'Cyclone' or 'Zyklon' was suggested, to continue with the 'wind' theme of Tornado. This was received well - until it was quickly realised that such a name, particularly for the 2-seater B model, would have been rather unfortunate....

'Typhoon', it was pointed out, had been used for both the German Me 108 and the British Hawker Typhoon. So that was OK then. They all had a drink over the idea - and 't Bungling Baron beamed merrily.

Watching the burner climb capability of the Warton Typhoons coming off the tanker was very interesting. Nothing the RAF has ever had went that well - straight up to around FL500 after filling to full! The pilots will love it.

[Impiger]

Straight up to Angels 50 after filling to full. Then calling High Key and setting up for the PFL!

Only joking, but I understand our new wonderkite is a little short on the old internal go-juice. Still if you let a bunch of Lightning pilots loose on a project ............

[M609]

and with some clever tricks planned to dramatically increase fuel capacity

They better get on with this soon, I've worked recoveries of to many JAS with only fumes in the go juice tanks.
And...during Joint Winter in march, the Swedes launched last......and landed first, even when the F-16 did not have AAR. :E

[Archimedes]

BEagle,

That's interesting - as you'll have seen from my bracketed remark, I was unsure of the exact provenance...

Since first I encountered the tale via someone who firmly believed it to be true , and since it has subsequently been recounted to me by someone on a JOCC, you may have started an urban legend!