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Tartan Gannet
15th May 2001, 09:58
Congratulations to the State of Israel on the 53rd anniversary of its Foundation.

Still there in the face of hostility. I salute you, O Israel!

spanwiseflow
15th May 2001, 15:02
Salute O Israel,

53 years of doing unto others what they have done to you


whoopy do!

Unwell_Raptor
15th May 2001, 15:29
The Palestinians can be forgiven if they do not join in the celebrations.

moschops
15th May 2001, 16:55
Both sides need their bloody heads banging together. I don't buy the Palestinian aggression any more than I buy the hypocritical Israeli b*llsh*t.

siggi
15th May 2001, 17:37
Shame Tartan Gannet, Shame, Shame on you!

http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/05/13/mideast.violence/

The Israeli Military has already admitted these blokes had NOT fired upon them and were simply brewing up their lunch when the IDF sank a few rockets into them and killed seven on the spot!

Not to mention babies hit by tank rounds in their beds in recent days.

A pox on you I say for lauding them at a time of such infamy!

ickle black box
15th May 2001, 18:10
Young children don't want to be throwing stones at Israeli soldiers, as it seems to carry the death penalty out there. Victim of a stone throw becomes judge, jury and executioner. How a civilised country can behave like this is beyond me!

Nil nos tremefacit
15th May 2001, 18:44
Sorry, it's not Israel, it's occupied Palestine. Nobody asked the Palestinians if they wanted to be in someone else's country. The creation of Israel may have been a sop to the guilt trip that was going through Europe after the last war, but it was a major injustice to the Palestinian Arabs, many of whose descendants are still in 'refugee camps'.

It offends me when I see Jewish settlers giving the natives a hard time, especially as those settlers seem to speak fluent English with heavy Bronx accents; they even interviewed some Glaswegians on the Golan!

Remember, at the time the ancestors of those members of the Jewish diaspora who are now 'returning home' left, the USofA had not been discovered, indeed many of their ancestors left before the Norman invasion of England. If we were all going to claim the right to settle the land that our ancestors occupied centuries ago, and if we were all to set out to do so by force of arms the world would be in perpetual war.

I do not for one moment condone the idea, doing the rounds in part of the Palestinian community, that all of the Jews should be put to the sword, but it is easy to understand how they arrive at that conclusion. The scores on the doors give the lie to an all out Palestinian attack on Israel and Israelis - for every Israeli killed there have been several Palestinians (I think it is about 5 or 6 to 1).

Ultimately there will have to be a settlement, but if our own experience of Ireland is anything to go by, it promises to be a very bloody thousand years!

HugMonster
15th May 2001, 19:20
No, no, no - stop!!!

There are no such things as Palestinians! Our own politicians told us so - Israel was "A land without people for a people without a land".

So the Israelis are perfectly justified in doing what they're doing, dispossessing Palestinians, killing their children for throwing stones, mortaring their schools.

After all, they were oppressed for hundreds of years - so aren't they justified in getting their own back?

Incidentally, fundamentalist Jews don't believe in the state of Israel - it will only come into being when the Messiah arrives.

foghorn
15th May 2001, 19:26
They nearly got Uganda instead.

loveit
15th May 2001, 19:53
I don't know why exactly, but to me any one (religon, country, political party, etc) that espouses death to all non-belivers/nonconformists is automatically in the wrong.

DeltaTango
15th May 2001, 20:56
Oh I just LOVE this!!!!!!!

1) Israel celebrated independance 3 weeks
ago.
2) Like has been said here: there IS no Palestinian people(I know you meant it cinically, hug).
3) The day after Israel gained it's indipendence in 1948, it was attacked from within and from it"s neighbours, and they just don't seem to stop.
4) why are 10 year old kids out throwing stones? would you let YOUR kid do it? What would you tell your sun who calls you from the westbank scared to death of getting hurt by ROCKS!!!!!, molotov cocktails and now also live fire, and has standing orders NOT TO SHOT ONLESS HIS LIFE IS IN REAL DANGER(and he better *****ng be able to prove it afterwards), and even THEN only towards the legs?

What I want to know is:
1) how many of you has even the slightest idea of the conflict in the region?
Besides you short term memory from what you see in the news and I agree-it looks bad!!!!!


To bad you can't think about where you get your views from.
Any of you come across a anti journalist thread lately complainning about poor, onesided journalism of aviation incidents?How about correlating a bit?????All you know is what the news show you, and like with crashes-people only like to see the terrible things and violence going on....

I just LOVE all you beutifull people...


DT

Tartan Gannet
15th May 2001, 21:19
Well, I could have bet my wages on it! With the exception of DT, most responded as I would have predicted. There is a great job awaiting many of you as corespondents on the BBC World Service, that great Palestinian Propaganda Machine.

I still stand firm in my support of Israel and only wish we Brits had responded to terrorists in the same robust manner as they always have.
Mazeltov!



[This message has been edited by Tartan Gannet (edited 16 May 2001).]

DeltaTango
15th May 2001, 21:43
good on ya tartan..... :)

Unwell_Raptor
15th May 2001, 23:50
Siggi:

Thank you for your post. You have been a PPRuNer for longer than most of us, but you put the rest of us to shame.

The Middle East is a tragedy, but it can only be made worse by sloganising for either side.

Thank you again Siggi; when I take my bedtime glass, I shall toast the Flugkapitan.

Tartan Shortbread
16th May 2001, 00:36
Quote:-

"I still stand firm in my support of Israel and only wish we Brits had responded to terrorists in the same robust manner as they always have"

You mean demolishing houses? Shooting teenage rioters? Building settlements in defiance of treaties and of international law? Sabra? Shatilla?

You are a truly horrible man. I can excuse your stupidity, but I cannot excuse your assertiveness about something of which you know nothing.


For the record, I am English, and a not very good Christian, but I have a close family member who has lived in a Palestinian area, and who went out ther neutral and came back angry.

DeltaTango
16th May 2001, 00:52
of course she is angry-everybody is.
It's a fu*ked situation.
Now, Sabra and Shatila was a tragedy-it does NOT make a people murderes.(I don't even want to think of the "upses", "nice" European governments have made).
- It's the teenage boys out there endangering lives with they Rock launchers.
- House demolished belong to TERRORISTS whom have been found guilty in a court of law of being directly responsible for killing civillians(buses, malls etc...).
- houses: tough issue...hmmmmm.
I can only say that I hate extrimists of every kind.

You must put things in perspective.

DT
(nice discussion by the way)

Chocksaway!
16th May 2001, 03:19
Who is this Farting Gannet, and why does he talk such **?

[This message has been edited by Chocksaway! (edited 15 May 2001).]

Nil nos tremefacit
16th May 2001, 15:38
DT

Whilst I wholeheartedly condemn terrorism, from whichever side, I don't think destroying someone's house is fair punishment if other people happen to live there.

In any society it is possible for a family to have a lone terrorist member. The family may sympathise with the objectives of the campaign (a free Palestinian/Irish/Tamil state), but condemn his/her terrorist activities. There have been miriad cases in Northern Ireland where families are quite genuinely surprised when young Patrick or Billy goes down for life. Nobody in the UK would suggest that we should make their immediate family homeless. That is barbaric in the true sense, civilised people don't do these things.

No wonder Israel is in such a mess. Imagine if you have been a good boy at school, studied for your exams, worked to get on with your Israeli neighbours, been a good Christian/Muslim etc. You come home one day and find that, because your much older brother has planted a bomb without your consent or knowledge, your bedroom with all of your possessions, memories etc is being bulldozed by a bunch of Americans called Cohen. In the conquest for hearts and minds do you think that Mr Sharon will win, or do you think that that is another recruit for the Intifada?

DeltaTango
17th May 2001, 15:50
NIL-I did'nt say that I agree with everything Israel does.
Unfortunately it is a very big problem for both sides, and looping acusations will just go on forever.
Don't condem a hole family because of one rotten egg?
Fine, then don't go and condem a hole NATION because of one irrational Officer whom ordered the massacre at Sabra and Shatila.
That was inexucable.

My response went out to those reacting, strongheartedly-may I add, to a situation they know nothing of.
I don't understand what the big fuss is all about in Northern Ireland either and could'nt care less if the Irish got it back(being a UK citizent myself).
But I don't know much about the conflict to express myself about it.

Peacfull greatings
DT

Whirlybird
17th May 2001, 17:13
It's a very complicated situation, with a number of horrific things having been done by both sides, on a strip of desert to which many different peoples can lay claim, historically speaking. But it's now been independent for over 53 years, and most of the people there (OK, not all) have lived there all their lives. So some solution has to be found that suits all of them.

You lot yelling and screaming about the rights and wrongs of Israel or Occupied Palestine are just adding fuel to a fire which has been burning for far too long and consumed too much energy and too many lies - and doing no good whatsoever.

And I've lived there, and have friends there, on both sides of the ethnic divide, OK?

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

DeltaTango
18th May 2001, 22:33
whirly-I could kiss you... :)
That is EXACTLY a response comming from someone who knows the situation from life and not only from the media.

Whirly-if you're ever in the neighborhood visiting your friends....give us a call :)

DT

Loki
18th May 2001, 22:56
In a situation of severe complexity every bit as convoluted as that which obtains in N. Ireland, I am saddened by the tenor of some of the posts here. People, whether they are Palestinians or Israelis absolutely must learn to live with and care for each other. There is no other way of resolving this. Suicide bombers and air strikes by F16s won`t help anybody, it will merely stoke up the fires of hatred further. When peace comes, then I will celebrate.

Hot End
23rd May 2001, 10:39
Yesterdays whores are tomorrows lovers in politics. When is a freedom fighter a terrorist and a terrorist a freedom fighter? I can name a few turn coats on both sides. Begen and Sadat come to mind. The former used to be in the haganah. Their strike arm, the Palmach used to go round hanging British soliders from trees when the British had their Palestine mandate. Sadat sided with the Nazis in WW2 with the reasoning of: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Even the current Israel PM, "arik", used to head up the notorious unit 101.

It simply depends on which side of the bed you got out of. There have been murderess excesses on BOTH sides. They can all go to hell, as this generation has too much hate in them to do any good at at. I do worry about the young children though.

Joke: Why didn't the Israelies join in the gulf war? Because last time they listened to a talking bush they ended up wandering through the desert for 40 years!

------------------
Goddamit! Burnt another one

Boss Raptor
23rd May 2001, 16:37
Well let's just say now I get really embarrassed to admit I am one of the 'Chosen People'!

Paterbrat
25th May 2001, 03:00
Sadly the conflict has progressed to the stage where there doesn't actualy seem to be a right and a wrong side as there are valid points to be made by both sides about the provocation that has provoked so much hatred and bitterness. The blow and counterblow have long since passed the point of reasoning who did what to whom and why. Both side do need to simply try to understand that any blow by any side will provoke a response and untill there can be some limited cooling off period it will simply drag on and on and on and on...........who know it may never stop, now there's a scary thought.

Slipslide
26th May 2001, 02:41
My heart goes out to all those who were lost.

"Structural defects were to blame for the roof collapse".................not the wrath of God

(wake up people the end is nigh)

Nil nos tremefacit
26th May 2001, 13:17
In the midst of all the sadness surrounding the building collapse, is it not heartwarming to note that the Palestinian authorities have expressed condolences and have offered help? Perhaps there is some hope after all.

Incidentally, TG, as the starter of this thread, you might be aware as a Freemason, that Jews, Armenians, Palestian Arabs of Christian and Muslim persuasion and all the other peoples who live in the region can and do meet regularly in Masonic Lodges. I seem to recall recently that there was a new predominantly Jewish Lodge sponsored by predominantly Arab Lodges in Jerusalem. Men of all faiths and races travelled from all over the region to be at the consecration. Often they had to cross divides between peoples and through check points. It apparently took many of them weeks if not months to get the necessary passes and permits. They went about their business in harmony and parted as friends, it's just a pity that others can't follow the example.

DeltaTango
27th May 2001, 04:05
Alot of jews and arabs get along just fine.
The problem lies in the religious fundamentalists whom thrive on the power they get from preaching to very large brain washed uneducated masses.


BTW-a bomb has just gone off in the middle of Jerusalem-thankfully-no one was hurt.


DT
p.s. Boss-don't be....