Finnair & Aero Airlines

[Stratocaster]

Hello,


Since I don't know much about this part of the world, I'm trying to understand all the reasons why Finnair relies more and more on Aero Airlines to fly its pax on domestic and Tallin routes.

Lower salary ? Probably, but I read the difference in the cost of living between the two countries is getting smaller and smaller every year. I read somewhere here that Aero Airlines had to hire pilots from Finland to fly the Tallinn route for the last 2 years, so the wages should be quite similar. Lower taxes ? A bit a that too, I guess...

Any info appreciated, thanks !

[Fadec Off]

Lowering the costs is the main reason ofcourse but how it works in practice?
I think all the pilots working now for Aero are wetleased from Finnair and the salaries etc. are the same.
Also I wonder if they manage to win customers trust with foreign personnel used in domestic markets, strange strategy from the company which biggest advance have been being Finnish.

[Stratocaster]

Someone said somewhere on PPRUNE that Aero Airlines aircraft on the Finnair routes (HEL-TLL) had to have pilots from Finland or at least pilots who have the right to work in Finland. This seems to have something to do with labor laws over there. I guess this rule is now gone (Estonia being full member of UE now), but that's not exactly my point here.

That puzzles me a bit... How much were they paid then, and how ? Was it on Finnish or Estonian standards ? And how much are they paid now and how is another question...
:)

[Fadec Off]

Most of them are on FINNAIRs payroll, they are paid according to Finnair Pilots agreenment. That does not save money. Aero is intend to hire Estonian pilots- did not succeed. I don´t know why. Maybe not enough decent candidates or similar. They have hired also Finnish pilots directly from pilots school. They are zerotime first officers and probably low paid, payscale might be something between Estonian and Finnish standart. I do not know for sure how the pay is but definately not the same as in Finnair. Also I prsume that Aero pilots(excluding those finnair fellows) are not in the Finnair seniority list.

[Trolle]

Even though Estonia is now a member of the EU, the 10 new member countries have work restrictions placed on them in the former 15 countries. Finland wanted to protect its labor market for the time being and is allowed to restrict labor from the 10 new countries for the next two years. I believe this is the case with all the former 15, except for Ireland, but I am not sure on that.

[Northern_Driver]

The latest plans of Aero Airlines are to start flying more and more domestic in Finland. I believe the new destinations are Vaasa, Kokkola and Joensuu. Basically the same routes, that Finnair used to fly.

There has been some talk also about moving some of the MD-80 fleet to Aero Airlines. Hopefully it works out.

N_D

[Max150]

I wonder why Finnair pilots accept this????

[Kopeloi]

Max 150,
Could you specify why not to accept?
Nikolai

[Nick Figaretto]

-Probably because it seems like the pilots of Aero Airlines would take the Finnair Pilots' jobs, unless the Finnair Pilots are able to control the expansion of Aero Airlines within Finnair's own market.

[Kopeloi]

I see your point but isn´t that very old fashioned protectionism.
Keep in mind that Aero is fully owned subsidiary of Finnair and will offer the same deal for Finnish as well as for Estonian pilots, maybe even Norwegians if properly qualified.
Could you tell me why Finnish pilots should be paid more for the same job in your opinion?
Nikolai

[Techman]

There are too many people willing to soil their own nest.

[Kopeloi]

Sometimes it is much better to open all doors and windows for your nest and let the fresh air in. Years of protectionism had only bad effects for the large companies like SAS. Obviously Finnair is not willing to do the same mistakes.
Techman, just look forward not back. We will all benefit from fresh and fair competition and that includes pilots as well.
Nikolai:ok:

[Max150]

If estonian pilots get the same deal as
Finnairs pilots, no problem! Otherwise Finnair pilots will get the same problem
as SK pilots do. The Sk management wants to put more and more jobs from Sk to lesser paid pilots in companys owned by Skandinavian Airlines. The pilots in the smaller companys might like that. But it will in the long run reduce the pay for the hole industry. Not in the interest of any pilot.

[Kopeloi]

I think that this development has already started. Salaries are reducing for the levels that are more correctly reflecting for the required education and even more importantly to demand and supply level. Simply expect that airline pilot will be paid much less in the near future!
Kopeloi

[Techman]

You are only letting the stench spread with your open windows Kopeloi.

Am I wrong in sensing that you actually relish the idea of a continued decline in the terms and conditions for aircrew?.

[JJflyer]

Unfortunately the precedence has been set for the decline of aircrew salaries. It started with US of A in the name of deregulation and continues now with companies in Eastern EU such as Wizz Air and Sky Europe etc.

There will allways be a guy sin a need of a job that will rather fly for peanuts and wait for something better to come around than sit at home and do nothing.

There will be an increasing number of Eastern European pilots trained on western aircraft that are willing to work for considerably less than us. One needs to understand that the lesser salary is likely to be worth a lot more to them where they come from.

These are facts and whining is not going to change anything. It is just how world works.

JJ

[Kopeloi]

Techman,
I am sure that you see it everywhere around. Those days with a strong union run airlines are long gone. Now it start to be "you take it or leave it" mentality for new hirings. Salaries are less than half what they were and still going down, I am afraid. Every "new" airline will start without the "help" of unions. This is happening with SAS and Finnair and it is a fact that you and me need to learn to live on.
Let´s just face it, we were maybe overpaid! Good thing is that once you retire you can maybe afford to fly more often to vacation in an aircraft crewed by pilots who are really paid "peanuts" in comparison what you got.
Just enjoy the ride , life is good!
Nikolai
:)

[Techman]

It is quite apparent that it's not only the T&C's of the industry that are in decline, but also the back-bone of those employed therein.

The easiest thing is of course to just bend over, grap your ankles and get ready to recieve the Lord's blessing.
It might be a fact that this is the future of the aviation industry, but only because people like you accept it.:yuk:

[Kopeloi]

Techman,
Please do not make mistake and assume that I accepted anything less than a top wages. I left airlines years back and still lucky enough to do a six figure amount each year while flying a tad smaller jets. I think that people like you who try to hang on for bankrupt ready companies are the bad news for the modern aviation! So like you say, you need to bend over or look something else. My back was too stiff for that.
Life is good!
Nikolai

[Atlanta-Driver]

...Can't stop yourself from getting personal??? Did you think that your post was constructive?

[Techman]

Perhaps a question you should have asked yourself, before hitting the 'submit reply' button AD.:rolleyes:

I am fairly sure that Kopeloi is capable of fending for himself, and would have done so if warranted. So I can only assume that you are speaking for yourself, and that of course beg the question, whatever did I say that was too personal for you?


When people take great delight in the erosion of the T&C's of aircrew, specifically in a part of the industry they don't work in, and think that it's a breath of "fresh air", I really start to wonder what motivates people to have such opinions? Is it envy, simple pettiness or just a desire for others to do worse so one can feel better about one's own situation?

To suggest that aircrew pay is a determining factor in a company's financial performance or could even lead to bankruptcy is just ignorance, possibly fuelled by the same motives as mentioned before.

[Kopeloi]

Techman,
I mean what I write! Times of union backed high salaries in aviation are gone, period. There is nothing what anyone of us can do for it. As JJ flyer wrote, this started from US and worked it way to Europe. Now in Scandinavia it wouldn´t help to start a fight against it any longer.
You can see it everywhere, SAS is setting "new" airlines as do Finnair. Salaries are not comparable for previous ones and they have no problems to find crews! Why?

Just accept the situation and if you don´t like to work on these wages, there is plenty other jobs in the world. Unfortunately most "badly" paid.

Watch what is happening for last large US airlines with they "overpaid" crews! Down to drain..... Better start to look something else like yachting or simply forget your old opinions and let fresh air in and keep flying more hours on smaller pay!

Life is Good and I hope that they will buid more bizjets!
Nikolai
:}

[Max150]

Good thing I havnt paid 80.000 euros for a pilot
education, and then having to work for peanuts
trying to pay of my loan. Yeeeaks. :yuk: :sad: :sad: :mad:

[Techman]

You are quite right Max150, as it is now there is little backbone in those employed in the profession.

You will often see people pretending too be the messenger of the "Bad" news while they infact wellcome the changes.

Often it is those who who can not make it to the top, but the rather want to drag the top down to their level.

It is sad. But nevertheless something that have to fought....

[Holding Short]

Gents,

As this a rumour network;) Lets throw another log to the fireplace. Have anybody else heard about the possibility, that all the new airplanes all 12 of them are indeed going to be flying under new not yet publicly announced company called Finnair Express.:hmm: Or maybe they were going to SAS I am not sure it was 4am when I heard it in the pub and we were pretty...

HS

[The Ticketor]

Heard some mumblings. But those mumblings can mean that they will be operated by Aero. Why start yet another company, when you have Aero? Time will tell...