Ryanair Jeppesen's Out of Date

[FreeSpeed]

Reliably informed that a member of the IAA found on arrival at an aircraft in Skavasta that the Nav. Bag on not just one of the aircraft based there were out of date. In one case upto 24 updates out of date. Is this another form of cost cutting.

[sky9]

Did he allow it to depart?

[B737NG]

And Ryanair claims to have high standarts.... was the photocopy
of the trip kit up to date or outdated as well??

NG

[lod]

IT DID HAPPEN AND ALL WAS SORTED FOR THUR MORNING.
THIS PROBLEM HAD BEEN POINTED OUT TO THE OPS PEOPLE IN STN BUT THEY AND THERE MANAGERS TOOK NO NOTICE

[411A]

...it was LOUDLY proclaimed...:ugh:

[Scandinavian]

The rumour is somehow true. They also raided a plane in Denmark. However, the IAA didn't ground the fleet......

We have just got a new Jeppesen system. The system is fantastic!!! We only have to carry the plates we need - alternates at the commanders discretion - there is no (0) plates onboard the aircraft.

In case of a medical emergency or enroute technical problems, we just tell ATC, that we havn't got any plates, and they will solve the problem for us.....isn't that smart! - cost saving...

[A4]

So if you have an engine or serious cabin fire and need to land at the NEAREST airport, what do you do if that airport does not have radar, or is a Cat B field which needs a little more attention.

I thought that a set of Jepps actually constituted part of the Ops Manual and was therefore required to be carried. I think expecting ATC to supply all the info puts an undue pressure on them - and what if the communication is misunderstood in any way?

Would you feel comfortable flying an instrument approach, possibly in marginal weather without plates - particularly if you have an inflight emergency in progress? Pretty sure I wouldn't!

What does the UK CAA think about this (if it's true). It doesn't put RYR at the top of my list of chosen carriers.

A4 :uhoh: ]

[lod]

THERE ARE PLATES ON BOARD IN A NAV BAG FOR ANY DESTIONATIONS WE DONT FLY TO. ALL CREWS MUST TAKE PLATES FOR ANY AIRPORTS WE FLY IN TO. ITS NO BIG DEAL, JUST IF YOU HAVE TO DIVERT THE PLATES ARE CLOSE AT HAND IF ITS A RYR DESTINATION AND IF NOT TAKE THEM OUT OF THE NAV BAG.

[FreeSpeed]

IOD nobody is disputing that we don't carry plates, all I'm saying is that is doesn't matter how many plates or nav bags that we carry as they are no good if they are out of date. The reason for them being updated is that something of importance on the plate has changed.

[lod]

I KNOW THAT AND THAT IS WHY EVERY MONTH ON THE SAME NIGHT EVERY BAG WILL BE UPDATED ON ALL 72 AIRCRAFTS IN EVERY BASE. ITS A GOOD NEW SYSTEM THAT FOR ONCE IN ALONG TIME ON THE 738 THAT YOU WILL HAVE UPDATED PLATES. ALL PLATES YOU TAKE FROM OPS ARE UP TO DATE AS THE JEPPY DISC COMES IN EVERY 2 WEEKS AND THAT WONT CHANGE. ALL IN ALL THIS WILL BE MUCH BETTER SYSTEM. IT JUST MEANS THE FO MUST TAKE WITH HIM ALOT MORE PLATES IN HIS TRIP KIT.

[A-FLOOR]

Did you recieve my PM regarding YOUR USE OF CAPITALIZED WRITING?

[Pirate]

Just to answer A4's last question, Ryanair is an Irish airline. UK CAA has no jurisdiction.

Yes, I know that Stansted is their biggest base. This is the whacky Euro-world we live in.

[sky9]

A few points:
1 Jepps are updated weekly so should be changed weekly.
2 If the IAA Ops Inspector found Jepps significantly out of date I would have thought that his boss should be asking him why he allowed a flight to depart with out of date charts. I would find it hard to believe that the IAA condoned such an action.
3 Photo copies of letdown charts are normally considered illegal as they are a breach of copyright and also not subject to ammendment. So does the airline concerned have 2 sets of letdown charts for each airlield or only one? UK AOC operators require a chart for each pilot.

[lod]

SORRY A4.
The IAA and jep have given the ok for the new system so i doubt there is anything wrong with it. The new system has taken so long to come in as we were waiting for the IAA to give the ok . If they had had said yes weeks ago we wouldnt be talking about now. At the end of the day if MR W B in stn had his staff doing the updates there would never had been a problem. Cost cutting cost the company a huge problem all because the ops staff in DUB were not being listen to . Silly people

[bacardi walla]

THIS IS FACT
The IAA asked the UK CAA to assist in auditing FR's aircraft at STN, including those operated by Buzz. Said CAA man found nothing wrong with Buzz's aircraft, and I believe he checked at least 3 out of 6. He did however strongly voice his concern about the state of FR's own aircraft he checked. It would appear that most of FR's aircraft were at least 10 amendments out of date. I ask the question. If the IAA allow Irish aircraft to operate in this state, why do pilots despatch knowing the Jepps are so out of date?

Although FR has a new system, which in itself seems to be flawed, the IAA didn't approve it prior to FR introducing it. The UK CAA has insisted that Buzz (100% owned by FR) does not introduce the new FR system until they (CAA) are fully happy that the system will work. They too have their doubts about what is essentially a cost cutting excercise.

For a crew to depart NOT having plates for alternates, at Captain's discretion or not, is asking for trouble. How can a crew determine a safe approach with zero data to check on i.e. allowable runway length, obstacles, MSA, etc etc. You can't tell me that ATC will provide all this information via the radio?

The IAA came extremely close to grounding FR's entire fleet on Thursday and have not yet put this subject to bed. More and more ramp checks of FR aircraft are taking place around Europe on an almost daily basis.

Are FR a safe carrier? Probably but an accident is waiting to happen, god forbid.

How many Buzz pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?

How many FR pilots out there would not have a full trip kit and more besides before they set off?

I bet the answers are somewhat different..........

[A and C]

The photo copys that Ryanair Use are not illegal as the company has subscribed to the "Jeppveiw" system and all copys are properly licenced to Ryanair and this is stated on the top of each plate.

These plates also have a "check after" that gives the date of the next Jeppveiw disk issue so that the ammendment state can be checked and the plate disgarded if a new plate has been issued.

[johnpilot]

The new system introduced is not a cost cutting exercise, it is a huge improvement on what we had before. Remember the jepessen staff flying around with us updating the NAV bags? How many times did any of us check the NAV bag. Never it was not required as the NAV bags were sealed to guarantee that things would not go missing. The new system is very simple and very efficient. We have a sealed Brick customised for RYR by Jepessen for the offroute airports. This brick is sealed and it has a clear date indicating that it is up to date. In each base pilots take with them before the flight all relevant plates required for the flight, including destination and alternates. The plates as they come from Jeppview have a clear date on them stating until when they are valid. We also take a trip kit and we are responsible for making sure that it is up to date with all high and low level charts.
JAR OPS does not require two sets of plates on board an aircraft, nor does the UK CAA. It depends on the OPS manual of each carrier.
The JEPPY is one way of doing things, Aerad, Lufthansa, and KLM have their own internal department printing their own NAVs.
The inspector in Skavsta was not IAA he was from the Swedish Authorities
JP:D

[fireflybob]

You just wonder in this day and age of modern technology why the plates cannot be put on a CD to load into the on-board computer which will display the procedure and/or give a hard copy printout?

Best company I worked for gave all the pilots their own personal issue Jepp which you kept amended yourself - this kept you current with any changes. Only charts on the a/c were low level radnav charts and some of the diversions.

[FreeSpeed]

Johnpilot I'm afraid you're wrong, the inspector was from the IAA, he had travelled from Cork through Stansted that day. You can sing all you want to about your new "brick" system, but it still doesn't change the fact that the nav bags were(are?) out of date. It doesn't inspire confidence knowing that the IAA have not done anything about it.

[oil pressure rising]

Johnpilot-- Been looking at your posts! You are very obviously a management mole as your pronouncements are heavily biased! The system now is so fraught with potential mistakes it seems unlikely to be adopted by any other major carrier! I can just visualise a situation with a fuel critical diversion and the discovery that the one suitable airfield just happens to be the set of charts that was left behind! On top of this we now have an FMC database that includes so many unusable airports that it has become far less of an assistant in a time of need! Try selecting APTS when in any of the larger map scales and you will see what I mean!

[lod]

Everything on board now is up to date. Yes there was a problem which the management knew about and did not take action till they had to last week. That is were the problem lay but again everything is ok now

[B737NG]

Lod you sound to optimistic........ be careful!. To get a buck in the
pocket the "White House" does everything to keep going....

NG

[lod]

I know that and thats why they got into this problem in the first place. I have seen the system and gone through it and it will keep everything up to date. The only thing that is wrong with it is it doesnt have any plates in the brick for the airports we fly to. It does mean that the crews must bring up alot of plates with them and it would make easier for everybody if they just put them all in. All the paper that will use and since there is a cut back on A4 paper what will ops do when they have already signed out there 25 copies??
Still after all that i do think it will work out fine.

[Doctor Cruces]

Pirate,

Surely the CAA as guardians of Air Safety in UK airspace would have sufficient juristiction to ground an aircraft or indeed stop them flying in UK airspace should thery consider it unsafe to do so. Having Jeppies so many amendments behind may constitute a breach of safety.

Doc C.

[Faire d'income]

Sounds like the new system brings FR in line with third world operators. The FR posters here ( if genuine ) don't even seem to know compromises what a proper system.

Even if we assume the poster who said offline plates were not carried except at the commanders discretion ( it is not unknown for a certain company to pressurise skippers ) was joking or lying, there is still obviously an enormous gap between FR and 'best industry practise'.

The IAA are a farce and should hang their heads in shame. Their main objective is to fund themselves by overcharging the entire industry. They are pathetic to deal with despite the money they charge and really ( other than a few retired airline pilots ) have little knowledge of a real operation. :confused:

[bacardi walla]

Makes one wonder if FR are not lining the IAA's pocket with something other than out of date Jepps.....:mad:

[frangatang]

Why doesnt oleary pass by the BA compass centre,he might
just pick up the latest out of date aerad booklets that have
just been binned.Sorry they are not jeppesen but you can read them.
how come that ar......le appears as one of the captains of
industry on the BBC breakfast show,surely he should have been aassaulted by one of his staff by now?

[lod]

I would like to know what makes it sound third world like?
Sounds more like a case of FR bashing. Since you have no idea what is like i would think it is hard to make a judgement about it. All crews seem to be happy with it so just because your carrier doesnt use it doesnt make it wrong. Time to teach an old dog new tricks.

[throttle up]

New RYR system is now in place . It is the best I have seen and I suspect more operators will introduce it once they take the time to recognise the benifit of change . It is simple to check ,simple to use, and dead simple to revise . Well done Ryanair and Jeppesen . Another sacred cow bites the dust!:ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Surely the CAA as guardians of Air Safety in UK airspace would have sufficient juristiction to ground an aircraft or indeed stop them flying in UK airspace should thery consider it unsafe to do so. Having Jeppies so many amendments behind may constitute a breach of safety.

They can ramp check any aircraft in the UK. But to stop them flying in UK airspace would require a lot more legal work and for the airline to be proven to be unsafe and added to the 'black list'.

[bacardi walla]

throttle up FR bashing this is not. This new system is pronounced safe so long as pilots take with them sufficient plates to cover a diversion that is not covered in the trip kit. Without the extra plates, pilots have to rely on breaking in to a seal packet called the "brick".

The so-called "brick" allegedly has ALL European airports with a runway 6000ft or longer, plus selected airfields with shorter runways. Well having seen the "brick" I'd question that comment.

How can something the size of a house brick replace 4 A5 Jepps binders? Lets face it, there are a huge amount of airports in Europe with runways 6000ft or longer. So, what plates are missing from the brick? SIDS and STARS maybe ?:confused:

Keep the thread going, it's a very interesting subject.

[trainer too 2]

This is the kind of topics that are interesting for regulators and journo's alike. It is a basic safety issue and if we are not happy with it and have nobody in the company taking us serious I hope they will ask the questions!! :(

[SNNEI]

"Makes one wonder if FR are not lining the IAA's pocket with something other than out of date Jepps....."

just goes to show how little some of you know about how things work over here. That is a slanderous remark which you should be brought to task for. Perhaps you might consult with NATS about the IAA: they might give you all a better idea about what the IAA are like to deal with.

[FreeSpeed]

Iod says "management knew about this... but did not take action until they had to" doesn't say much for FR management. Also to say that all crews are happy with this setup is total rubbish. I guess Iod is one of Mr Brady's bunch.

[bacardi walla]

SNNEI I know exactly how things work inside FR and there is nothing slanderous about my comment. It's just an observation because it often seems that "the tail is wagging the dog".

And I also know what the IAA are like to deal with. I've dealt with them in the past. Lets just say, they are opening their eyes finally.

[A and C]

Most of the above posts are just Ryanair bashing by the uninformed or people with some sort of anti-Ryanair agenda.

The ryanair system for the distribution of "jepp" plates is no better or worse than most other airlines , the fact that the "jeppview" copys are used most of the time may well mean that the crews get to see the latest Jepp plates marginaly quicker than they would if the books were changed as is traditional in the industry.

The thing that is of most interest to me is how a non-issue like this one has run to three pages , I know that Ryanair is not the most popular company in the industry but guys if you are going to have a pop at them please cut to the real issues.

Please Note I have no conection with Ryanair apart from working on a lease deal with them and having seen the system from the inside.

[bacardi walla]

A and C this is a real issue and an open forum for FR employees and outsiders to view opinions and facts.

[The Southend King]

A and C

Not only are you very wrong, you are actually not being very truthful.

I KNOW how poorly the jeppesen plates in RYR, particularly in STN, have been kept. Most airlines ( my new one included) get their entire jeppesen kits update every fortnight by bag change. This is done by a specialist company who make a reasonable charge for something that is of high SAFETY value.

Unfortunately, MOL has quite openly demonstrated his distain for spending money on safety related matters, and it is now all coming home to roost.

The IAA inspector who raised this issue has recently joined the authority. I expect this is just the first shot across the RYR bows to get their act together.

As an aside, I understand RYR aircraft, particularly around the London Zone) have taken to flying very slowly ( 240kts at 20,000 I heard them tell a surprised controller the other day). Industrial action perhaps?

[vfenext]

Southend King

Here here!! I have seen the dog earred bad photo copies that FR try to pass off as legit plates. Nothing short of scandalous that they get away with it. Invariably the top left corner is stapled, covering important info.

[EastCoaster]

Southend King

240kts @ 20000ft? Not that would be a surprise, considering they've been known to fly 300+kts at 3000ft or less while being vectored by approach to get ahead of the traffic, if there's any possibility of a number one position!! :}

[FreeSpeed]

A and C this is definitely not FR bashing, just a simple statement of facts.
If, as you say the Ryanair Jep distribution system is 'no better or no worse than any other airline' then you don't know what you are talking about. Take a look at my first post, nav. bags were found with over 20 updates out of date, you tell me all other airlines operate to this low standard, I think not.

[Faire d'income]

The IAA and jep have given the ok for the new system so i doubt there is anything wrong with it.

I take it the IAA gave approval for the old system as well. You and others have admitted here you frequently flew with out of date plates. That is crazy and probably illegal. It's a bit like using last week's TAFs for today.

Taking offline plates at the commander's discretion seems a bizarre interpretation of any sensible ops manual.

The new system you propose as being great and liked by the crews is the same systems most operators around the world use. Nothing new there. That is how the Jeppesen system is supposed to work.

My criticism is of what went before and your dismissal of it as FR bashing is somewhat indicative of FR. There is a lot of FR bashing here and elsewhere but sometimes it's justified.

[johnpilot]

I never took off or landed knowing that the Jeppesen Nav bag was out of date not 20 revisions, but even one. That would be illegal. The old system worked on the assumption that the NAV bag was checked and up to date and therefore the NAV bag sealed with all of its contents checked by the relevant department. I am sure quality control would be responsible for random checks. If the NAV bag was opened, thus unsealed by flight crew,it went back tothe Crew room for reasiling by ops. The system obviously did not work properly, we therefore changed to this new system. I believe that this system is much better and will ensure all plates not used will be up todate for the following reasons: We now open the nav bag and check that the brick on board is sealed and current. The last FCI states that all airports in Europe are in the brick so there you have it we can use all of them. The system of taking our own plates for the destination flight plan and commercial alternates is also a good one because we are responsible to make sure that they are up to date.
I would also prefer to have a system like they have in other airlines, maybe each pilot his own, maybe two sets of NAV bags onboard, but between the two options we have a surely prefer the new one
JP:D

[bacardi walla]

johnpilot somehow I don't believe a word you state.

I never took off or landed knowing that the Jeppesen Nav bag was out of date not 20 revisions, but even one

If you fly for FR, you obviously didn't even look in the bag on your aircraft. Most, if not all aircraft, had out of date bags not to mention bags labelled up with the wrong registration on it.

I am sure quality control would be responsible for random checks.

And who carries out such quality control? The overworked crew controller who is trying to do 4 jobs at once?

We now open the nav bag and check that the brick on board is sealed and current. The last FCI states that all airports in Europe are in the brick so there you have it we can use all of them

And you can honestly tell me that one "brick" the size of a household brick, contains all relevant data for all airports in Europe? Mmmm 4 A5 manuals into the size of 1..... My guess SIDS/STARS have been ommited from every airport in order to reduce the size and weight.

It's my guess also that there is a financial benefit for NOT opening the "brick"....

i.e.
return sealed = no charge
return opened = invoice in the post

As for each pilot having his own nav bag, well, I've heard it all now. Why not invest in laptops for each aircraft, hardwired to the systems and link them to ACARS so as to upload data as and when it's required. Oh, sorry, that costs money.

The whole set up is geared around money and not safety. I would however, like to be proved wrong.

I for one am not impressed or happy with this new system. I am always open to new methods, but this one does not ring true....

[SNNEI]

Bacardi walla,

I'm not a Ryanair insider, so i'll reserve comment on them. They part I found slanderous was the implication that the IAA (A government agency) are taking kick backs from FR.

Sorry mate, but I don't find a comment like that acceptable without some kind of proof at least. In any case, the fact that the IAA has taken some action kind of disproves that theory in the first place does it not?

[lod]

Maybe johnpilot is on the 200 as they were not out of date at all as they were updated every week by ops in DUB. It was only STN that were way behind due to the fact that they were told not to update them as i have already said. In fact the worst part about the nav bags even when they were up to date was down to the crews. You would open a bag to look for plates but they werent there as they had been used before and not returned to the correct part of the book and if they were there is coffee and tea stains all over them ( NO WONDER MOL IS GETTING RID OF TEA AND COFFEE ). So far everything is going ok with it so we may wait and see. We can all go over what has happened time and time again but there is nothing anybody can do about it now. Lets hope it works well and if there is any problems with it, it sorted out asap.

[Only A Few More Seasons]

Who is this Iod plonker?

[bacardi walla]

SNNEI yes the fact that action is being taken is maybe proof. I'll retract the statement, for now.

lod the -200's were out of date as some nightstop at STN and don't always get an upto bag sent to them. That, my dear fella, I know for a fact. The CAA chap went onboard a -200 during his visit and found a bag from another aircraft, and that bag was out of date.

Anyway, the new system is in place so we will see what happens over the next few weeks.

One thing nobody will explain, or own up to knowing, is EXACTLY what is in the "brick". Lets face it - contents of 4 x A5 manuals into 1 A5 size "brick" just doesn't seem to add up. There are a great deal of European airports with runways 6000ft or longer, so some data surely is missing :confused:

I am not convinced this will work or more importantly, be safe. Especially during the winter. Maybe the trip kit will grow :uhoh:

[johnpilot]

Guys, I am not trying to protect the new system, nor do I agree with everything they come up with. I know for a fact that I am way down the food chain. If things are wrong and are not going they way they should, other people´s names are on the list to have a go out by the relevant authorities. All I care about is my legality on a day to day operation and "my" licence. The NAV bag issue being out of date, I agree that it has been proven that it did not work and revisions were out of date. The point I was making was that I as a pilot was unaware in legal terms that it was out of date because I was not authorized to open the NAV bag and check its contents. All I care about is being safe, efficient and legal on the day. The rest is way beyond my control and my responsibility. The FCI´s that come out are sent to the IAA so they know exactly how we should operate. The new FCI that came out, states that the brick is not complete and in the next revision it will be ammended accordingly. In the mean time we are to supplement our trip kits with additional charts. Needless to say how many more I take every day.
I am hoping as they have numerous times said that all these issues will be resolved when we get the electronic flight bag by this fall.
JP:D