Legal problem doing go-around on 03L FAJS ?

[Gauteng Pilot]

One of the guys from FAJS mentioned there will be a Controler licience/ Legal inquiery if a plane has to do a go-around on 03L, and thats why they mostly land them on 03R

Can anyone explain to me why this is so ??? :confused:


Thanks

[REAL ORCA]

:confused: :confused:

[126,7]

Designated rwy is always 03R / 21L for inbound tfc. So if there's a go-around on the western rwy then the poor chap in the twr is in the poo. Didnt know they were going as far as licience/ Legal inquiery :confused:

[RUDAS]

that sounds a bit heavy-handed to me...:{

[REAL ORCA]

Can't do a go-around on the western runway because I never get to land there.:E :E

[Little One]

The simple story is Traffic may land on RWY 03L with minimal delay to departing traffic or as traffic situations dictate but at the Tower Controllers discretion.

Now if a Scheduled airline goes around it is considered a notifiable incident by ATNS managment (From a long time ago when parliment was delayed cause of a go around and the news blamed ATC, bla bla bla) All Incidents get investigated by our Manager Standards Assurance. If you are placed under investigation you usually have to wear suspenders (ie you are suspended) pending outcome of the enquiry. Now MSA apparantly has a very busy schedule so he can take 3 weeks at time to complete an inquiry. So for this time the poor ATC can not work or is forced to work other positions. If after the investigation the MSA determines that no ATC error was involved then you get re-instated. If it was due to ATC error you then have to do a corrective counseling session where you could have to retest if it was deemed a serious offence (not exactly fun). Now sometimes Our MSA finds fault On other procedures as well that had nothing to do with the actual go-around (like Incomplete card marking or sub standard ICAO R/T) and these can then also make you have to go have a little counselling.

Thats the just we don't loose our liscence per say but we are suspended pending investigation for greater aviation safety.

Hope it helps and also explains why 03L is not our preferred landing RWY

[4HolerPoler]

Not sure if it's still procedure but there was a uniquely South African habit of requiring the Captain's name to be given on the air once a go-around had been performed. It's probably a paper-work thing but there is no requirement to give your name over the air if requested. Request a telephone number and call once on the ground.

4HP

[RUDAS]

of late i've heard tower just passing a phone number to the crew of the aircraft that goes around,with a message to call them when they land...no names required.

Much better as it saves potential embarrassment.

[Little One]

The Name is needed for the INCREP form. If we get it over the air then its fine but most times we will give the phone number out and you can call us. Sometimes though the people don't call especially when they made a boo boo. I've had many pilots never phoning then we just file the report without pilots name and the CAA have to sort it out lot harder and upsets us. At least over the phone we can have a bit of a chat to see why things happen and creates better understanding.

[Pontius' Pilot]

I seem to remember that it was stated in AIC's that 03R was the PREFERED landing runway (not the only northern landing runway), so why should there be an investigation etc if there is a go-around performed from 03L.

A go-around is certainly not reason for an MOR to be filed unless, according to the gospel according to CAP 382 et al, it is a go-around producing a hazardous or potentially hazardous situation.

People should chill out and give the controllers the peace of mind to be able to direct traffic as only they can do - and at FAJS that is mostly pretty damn good.

A go-around is just another phase of flight!

Keep up the high standard of work at FAJS all you ATC guys and girls.

[Goldfish Jack]

Now you all know why we love working for ATNS!!!

At least when they suspend us, or should I say "removed from active duty pending investigation of the incident" we cant have another one!!!! (and we get weekends off!!!)

4HP - the requirement of having the PICs name is a CAA one - they have to have the name of the PIC, so they can address the issue with him. ATNS HO insist on us getting the name, immediately after the "occurrence". Much better to use the phone than the radio.

Tried Smith-bollington-taylor as a name once and the CAA system nearly collapsed, as they did not have such a pilot on their records - well that was what it sounded like on the radio!!!! Now they want your license no as well, and any number bigger than 5 scares me when I have to write it down!!!

Aaah they joys of being an ATC!!!

Pontius Pilot - I agree with your statement about a go-around - I dont see it being a crisis at all - but some people do and heavens help the poor ATC if he has one.

Little one - you need to learn the art of completing an incident report form - helpful hint no 1: try and anticipate the questions HB aka MSA will ask and answer them in your incident report. Helpful hint no 2: make sure it is not ambigious and does not have any grey areas. Helpful hint no3: You naughty boy - dont do it again and state "in the interests of flying safety and to prevent a potentially serious incident from happening......"

Then go down on bended knees and grovel like you have never done it before ( and you will still get into ':mad:' . Refer to sentence no 1 of this posting!!!!

[Little One]

Thanks Goldfish but have filled out many of those forms and do complete them like you hinted so much so that COMMS always moan when I bring one in caue its got lots and lots of writing on including the upper air winds etc that MSA likes asking for. And up North we don't get the weekends off always they usually make us work Clearance or the like till investigation complete.

The main reason that some do not like using the western RWY to land acft is that if an acft goes around due to anouther on the runway it is considered an ATC error no matter if you asked the Very bright sounding pilot were they ready for an immediate depature without stopping on the RWY and they replied AFFIRM. Then as you clear them for take off they turn the corner and come to a complete stop and take out there sammies for a little tea party on the threshold.

One on final sent around. ATC in dwang cause if one on final had been left on eastern RWY would never have happened and poor airlines undelayed record is now tarnished. One that came to a grinding stop on the runway can't understand why dep clearance now cancelled even though on just went over the top of their cockpit. Sad story.

The sad part is that the Head Honcho's even hire a super duper dude from NATS to advise them on our ATM issues and he even said a Go-around is a safe manouver and should not be considered an incident however some say it was working unsafely that got you in to the situation in the first place. So lets just always blame the ATC its easier. I'm pretty good at saying "I'm Sorry" these days

[orgasmotron]

Seems like ATNS is way behind the drag curve. Worldwide all airlines are asking less questions when crews are going around. All in accordance with the latest ALAR (Approach and landing accident reduction) workshops. A go around are now regarded as a non-event by a lot of airlines. Reporting is done internally with the purpose of sharing circumstances etc with others and not prosecution. Why then the fuss when ATC does it ? If we feel uneasy or unsafe, we go around and our company feels it better than bursting tyres and burning brakes. The same should apply to ATC, or am I missing the plot ?

[Pontius' Pilot]

Spot on orgasmotron! That's what I was alluding to when I said it is simply another phase of flight. No one should feel "threatened" by the thought of executing a go-around. As you say the ALAR workgroup supports a go-around rather than trying to make a bad approach work.

[Goldfish Jack]

You chaps are right, but you dont work for ATNS. I also see a go-around as a normal ops procedure. Sure we investigate them, but sometimes the powers that be go for overkill and the little one is not far wrong - they lose the plot investigating the go-around and find other things wrong and the stone that goes down the mountain well it gathers more and more faults until you might as well be shot!!

A lot of the youngsters are intimidated into being over safe, as they are scared of the outcome of an incident/occurrence. ATNS can go a long way to improving things in this department and I like to think that they are going to do it soon. (hope, pray, wish etc)

Oh well back to work.

[Pontius' Pilot]

So I guess there is an out of work ATC in Paris CDG after placing us too close behind a B747 on Thursday morning, this eventually required them to instruct us to do a go-around.

Sorry Goldfish I still don't understand ATNS's logic. Sure if there is a trend that indicates an excessive number of go-arounds, by all means investigate why.

Is Kippie Hills still in your headoffice/training section at ATNS?