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hamusandtahini
6th May 2004, 04:12
The headmaster of Nelson College today called for a boycott of Farmers stores over "man-bashing" products advertised in their Mother's Day catalogue.

Salvi Gargiulo said he had received three letters from people disturbed by slogans such as "Boys are stupid: throw rocks at them" and "Stupid factory: where boys are made" printed on slippers and bags in the catalogue.

Mr Gargiulo has been instrumental in developing a Good Man project at the school, as part of the scheme by former prison head Celia Lashlie to work with students at boys' schools, talking about such things as what makes a good man.

Today in school assembly he urged students to boycott Farmers when they shopped for Mother's Day gifts.

He said he realised the items were supposed to be funny, but they gave a "terrible message to young boys".

"If you keep on telling young boys that men are stupid, then they'll believe it."

He said it was time for people to stop finding humour by putting people down.

"I think a lot of bashing goes on under the heading of humour, but it's not humorous. If you joke like that you condone it."

He said if similar slogans were printed about women, there would be a huge outcry. He believed society accepted the mocking of men, and he wanted that to change.

Farmers group managing director David Norman said he apologised for any offence caused, but said the range was popular.

He said the statements on the products were "quite clearly tongue in cheek and not meant to be taken seriously".

"The teenage market to which these garments are targeted understand this and appreciate the somewhat unusual humour," Mr Norman said.

BlueDiamond
6th May 2004, 08:48
Sexism worked one way very nicely for many years until women decided it was time to call a halt to it.

Seems that there are those who dislike the positions being reversed.

"If you keep on telling young boys that men are stupid, then they'll believe it."

No sh!t Sherlock. Bit like the old saying, "You're only a girl," that generations of women had to grow up with.

maninblack
6th May 2004, 09:18
It seems to me that this is in danger of advocating revenge rather than balance.

Okay, sexism has been rife throughout eternity.

In the bulk of western society women have been the lesser sex as far as law and society.

In other societies such as the berbers women own the property and the men are effectively disenfranchised on a day to day basis.

Neither system is exactly fair but you can't redress the balance by giving berber men lessons in wife beating and encouraging western girls to belittle their brothers and classmates.

On the other hand......it's just a pair of slippers so I'll put my copy of The Grauniad down and remove my leather elbow patches.

eal401
6th May 2004, 09:32
BlueDiamond.

I can only assume you advocate throwing rocks at boys then?

Hypocrasy rules!!

tony draper
6th May 2004, 09:41
Its a bit like racism then.

BlueDiamond
6th May 2004, 09:50
I can only assume you advocate throwing rocks at boys then?
Not really.

Grenades are better. :E

eal401
6th May 2004, 10:15
Oh well, assume it'll be OK to smack my wife about if the dinner is not on the table then?





(For the feminists, that was a joke & I'm doing the cooking tonight.)

lasernigel
6th May 2004, 10:16
Didn't think it was Nelson and Colne college somehow!! Doesn't this go back to a comment I saw on another thread saying that NZ is run by left wing lesbians now?So headmaster is just trying to get even.Bought rocks slogan 'T' shirt for my 13yr old niece last year,who constantly wears it and thinks it great.
Isn't this indicative of the mollycoddling attitude today.Let boys be boys they'll sort it out for themselves.

captcat
6th May 2004, 12:54
"If you keep on telling young boys that men are stupid, then they'll believe it." If they will believe it then it shows that they REALLY are stupid :hmm:

Relax it's just for one day, then they'll go back to treating women rubbish as usual :ouch:

BlueEagle
6th May 2004, 13:00
Bluey - if you watch many of the adverts on channels 7, 9 and 10 you will know that the headmaster of Nelson has a very good point!;)

BlueDiamond
6th May 2004, 14:02
My apologies for being flippant everyone ... I actually thought this was just a wind-up and posted accordingly.

Wanders out to kitchen in search of very large, very strong coffee muttering, "I must read the posts more carefully, I must read the posts more carefully ....

:(

DishMan
6th May 2004, 16:39
NO don't go and get all sensible Ms BD...that would spoil the fun! :E

And Coffee at this time of night - you'll be up for hours.....:eek:

Ralph the Bong
9th May 2004, 11:13
With all respect Bluey, Women's issues have been fought and won years ago. It now time for men to reclaim a modicum of human respect.

I agree with you that females had the rough end of the pinapple since time immemorial, however, I feel that there has been a definite tend to belittle western males for quite some time. This is manifest in both social and institutional discrimination against men on several fronts in western nations.

20 or 30 years ago, when I finished high school, male and female candidates scored within 3% of one another in final exams. I recently read that females now score on average 20% higher that males. What changes have brought this about? Further to this, The proportion of females to males entering Australian universities is now 38:62 in favour of females.

This is not because males are 'dumb'. According to Prof. Hans Eisenck, the means IQ of males and females is identical at 100. However, the standard distribution of male IQs is higher than females. This means that there are a greater proportion of high (and low) scoring males than females. In an equitable education system, this should imply that more males would be entering universities than females. As this is not the case, surely the question should be asked, why are there not more males achieving the academic performance to gain admission to university?

To my mind, the answer to this lies in the erosion of the confidence of males to perform at school. Over the past years, I have witnessed changing social conditions whereby men are considered vastly inferior to females. Part of this is the fault of males to fully assert themselves when treated disrespectfully by females. For my part, I have ensured this this has stopped and I have absolutely no restraint in putting females in their place if they try to use cliched attempts to unjustifiably belittle me or any other men.

For example, how many men hear their spouse continually infer that they are a 'mere male' (the title of an anecdote column in a woman's magazine), that they are forgetful, incompetant, tardy, disoganized, dreamers, ect ect..This kind of treatment is tantamount to psychological abuse and is , in my mind, grounds for divorce. Most guys that I know are capable people with great leadership and social skills, entrusted with Millions of dollars worth of company assets and yet we are still being treated as children by our partners. I, for one, refuse to put up with this.

Have a look at how men are presented in advertising. The last time I was in Sydney, I saw a billboard(stocking ad.) with a picture of a man's face, contorted in pain being crushed by feminine stilleto clad, stocking adorned foot. Another ad. has a girl nonchalantly tossing chicken nuggets to her boyfriend who is pacing back and forth panting like a dog in hope of another bone. If you women cant understand the anger and insult that this generates, reverse the gender roles and you will see what we mean.

This anti male discrimination has even entered the legal system under the guise of 'equal opportunity'. I am aware of a case a couple of years ago where a young woman was subjected to a very unpleasant work environment. She worked in a panel beaters shop where there were numerous calender-type posters of naked woman promoting tyres, mufflers etc. She was asked about her sex life, whether she swallowed, took it up the rear, ever had group sex ... she was awarded $40,000. A man worked in a library in Sydney. His collegues and boss where all females. The office was full of posters that bore messages such as "If you want a job done properlly, ask a woman" and the like. The females in the office made continual jokes related soley to him being a male. He complained to his boss that his work environment was "hostile". His boss told him that he would get on better with his workmates if he "started wearing a dress to work". He went on stress leave and was sacked. He sued. At the Equal Opportunity Comission, a (female) judge told him that his case was "trivial" and that he should "grow up". His case was thrown out.

This headmaster from Nelson sounds like a top bloke. Good luck to him in his endevours.

scarlet wimpernel
9th May 2004, 11:51
What a sad world that it is that we can’t be adults. The case of women or men being legitimately sexually abused should be tried and punished accordingly.
However “boys are stupid throw rocks at them” is obviously a joke, and a fairly innocuous one at that. Just look at this website displaying the highly offensive material:

http://www.popartuk.com/humour/boys-are-stupid-st3241-poster.asp

Sorry, as a bloke I kind of like it, looks like the little buggar just got away with something good!
Cheers
SW

TamedBill
9th May 2004, 12:07
Wimmin eh?! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MMEMatty
9th May 2004, 12:56
Ralph The Bong;

There was a piece in the "Leeds Student" last week, basically saying that courses like psychology, sociology etc will now have undergraduates chosen at random by computer, since it was found that statistically, traditional methods like interviewing, reading personal statements etc results in a higher percentage of women being chosen. currently psychology is a 70:30 ratio of Women to Men; next year (if the students meet their grade requirements) it will be 80:20 Females to Males.

Sexism has been a one way street against women for time immemorial, as has been pointed out by other posters; however, now we are in the reverse street (as it were) with a greater percentage of sexism being against men. one only has to look at the fathers trying to get custody of their kids (there is a weblink, but i forgot it) in the UK to see that the pendulum has swong the other way. Niether situation is acceptable, however, as soon as men "fight back" for want of a better phrase, we are accused of being sexist.

But lets not forget that the greater percentage of domestic violence is perpetrated by men, and that femail executives are still more likely to be paid less than their male couterparts.


Matty

Onan the Clumsy
9th May 2004, 15:23
If something bad is done by group A to group B, then when group B has a chance to do something bad back to group A, and takes that opportunity, what have any of us gained?




Not that I really know that much about it, but I think the South African Truth and Reconciliation committee was one of mankind's greatest achievements. Certainly better than fifty years of bloodletting in the other direction.

ssultana
9th May 2004, 16:45
Psychology, is a nice subject for girls to study, not boys. If we didn't have social science courses at university then there wouldn't be enough pretty ladies for all the men.

Physics, maths, biochem, engineering and the other sciences are subjects for men (and women)

hamusandtahini
10th May 2004, 01:51
SAN DIEGO—According to a University of California–San Diego study released Monday, sexism is rampant throughout the natural world, particularly among the highest classes of vertebrates.
“When we first decided to examine attitudes and behaviors toward gender roles among non-humans, we were wholly unprepared for what we would find,” said Jennifer Tannen, leader of the UCSD research team, a joint venture between the school’s zoology and women’s studies departments. “Females living in the wild routinely fall victim to everything from stereotyping to exclusion from pack activities to sexual harassment.”
Nowhere is the natural world’s gender inequity more transparent, Tannen said, than in the unfair burden females assume for the rearing of offspring.
“Take the behavior of the ring-neck pheasant,” Tannen said. “After mating, the male immediately abandons the hen, leaving her responsible for the total care for the chicks. For the single mother-to-be, there is no assistance, either in the form of a partner or child support. Nor is there any legal recourse. It’s despicable.”
Annie Secunda, a Boston-based females’-rights advocate, said swift action must be taken to address the problem of sexism within the animal kingdom.
“We need to provide tigresses, hens, and all other females in nature with outreach programs and support networks,” Secunda said. “We also need to impose standards through intervention. The males of all species need to hear loud and clear the message that this kind of animal behavior is not acceptable.”
Secunda conducts numerous workshops aimed at creating female-friendly biomes and promoting the health and positive self-image of females on both land and in the sea. She also strongly advocates the legalization of infanticide, which would enable females to devour their newborn offspring when resources are limited.
Secunda spent much of 2001 in the Amazon rainforest, working to create safe spaces for female animals. These efforts, however, yielded mixed results: Females have avoided the lighted walkways she built in several dangerously dense areas, and leaflets encouraging females to learn how their own bodies work were ultimately used to line dens for the rainy season.
Far from discouraged, Secunda said she plans to embark on an intensive study of the sexuality of flora.
“Multicellular plants alternate sexually reproducing and asexually reproducing generations, with each plant producing both male and female gametes,” Secunda said. “It seems many plants have moved past conventional notions of male-female gender altogether. It’s so liberating, I can’t help but have hope for all those so-called ‘higher’ species of animals.”

:E

BlueDiamond
10th May 2004, 02:56
moved past conventional notions of male-female gender altogether.
Indeed. And it would appear that with the advent of cloning technology, those women who wish to reproduce will not need a male to help them do it.

We'll still need you to open those jars for us though ...

:E

flapsforty
10th May 2004, 08:00
Do we (http://www.jaromatic.com/) ? ;)

tony draper
10th May 2004, 08:15
Be ironic if they couldn't the lids off those jars of sperm though.


:E

gatfield
10th May 2004, 08:23
When I went to uni I remember a group of vocal men complaining about the existence of a 'women's day' and the fact that their was a 'women's room' that they were excluded from. I also remember thinking "well if you want a men's day and a men's room - get off your fat arses and organise one".

I do not doubt that there are many men/ boy issues that need to be addressed in society, particularly in education. If they have not been dealt with - then men should not blame the women for it and for their so called advances - but (work with women) to do something constructive about it.

And well, yes I can think of a couple more things that men are useful for, other than opening jars :E

Wholigan
10th May 2004, 08:23
But flaps - those machines do not have fingers.

redsnail
10th May 2004, 13:10
I used to work at a university and for social experiments it was a fantastic place. :D
The "wimin's collective" (or however they decided to spell their name) was a bloody embarrassment. They claimed that the "bar" was a male domain and threatening to women. (actually, it wasn't). So they carried on like stunned mullets and got their "wimin's room". A so called safe haven from the testosterone driven Bar. A female student thought that this would be the ideal place to breast feed her baby. No... wrong. They chased her out of there for some silly reason. Probably because she'd had sex with a man or some other such atrocity.
So she ended up breast feeding her lil baby in the bar and no one batted an eyelid.

The fellas here are right. There is too much male bashing going on in the print and tv media. "Woman's Day" is one such mag that has a column called "Mere male". It is meant to be humourous but I do think it does give guys the wrong message.
I know how cranky I get when I read company memos that have "he/him/his" all the way through it.

If these women are trying to empower the vertebrate world then they'd better not look at the insect world. Many male spiders and grasshoppers are eaten either during mating or immediately after. :E

Ralph the Bong
10th May 2004, 13:25
When I was at Uni, a group of us were sitting around in the local, having a few jars and some of the girls were having a serious go at blokes. So I asked question: "If we are all such a pack of bastards, why do you hang out with us?" The reply: " Because men are so good to sleep with" Actually, a different expression was used.;)

Also at Uni, I was a founding member of HetSoc; sort of a knee jerk reaction to GaySoc. We got the same funding from the student union and got a room etc. When we ran out of money we formed the Monty Phython Club. When that ran out of money, we formed the Merino Liberation Front...Uni was fun.

I agree with you Gatfield, men's issues are just that: Men's issues. And we can forget about any assistance from Femmes here. We have to do for ourselves. Problem is most of us guys are too busy working to dedicate the time to organise. Who has time to write "The Male Unique" (pun, not misspelling).

My own perspective is that men msut further continue to focus on individual personal development and further develop a true sense of self-worth. Sometimes this means getting rid of the baggage that holds you back, be it booze, cigs, a fat tum or some shrew at home. A big part of this is developing yourself as a worthy example to other blokes and boys. Nothing make me more sick than 'men' who go around getting pissed and showing their 'manhood' by starting fights when p!ssed(a-la soccer hooligans, for example) or beating up on their wives. Anyone who needs to get self esteem by domination of others clearly cannot dominate themselves.

True personal growth is probably just a start to a true liberation of men. Be prepared for some hard work.

BlueDiamond
10th May 2004, 13:39
True personal growth is probably just a start to a true liberation of men.
I believe that is entirely correct, Ralph ... and also that it applies to everyone. When we concentrate more on making our own progress, challenging ourselves and making the absolute most of our own talents and abilities, we all become free.

Remaining obsessed with what others think of us, or do and say about us only holds us back from becoming the best we can ... whatever that "best" might be. We cannot live our lives according to the expectations of others and neither should we.

hamusandtahini
10th May 2004, 14:07
Men's issues. And we can forget about any assistance from Femmes here.

YEP IT SUMS IT UP WELL. Wimmin and kids first..........doh som e of the kidzs are boyz....................doh!:8

tony draper
10th May 2004, 14:09
What they should remember is we is the prototype,they is just a afterthought manufactured from a bit of one of our struts.

:rolleyes:

BlueDiamond
10th May 2004, 14:12
Men's issues. And we can forget about any assistance from Femmes here.

Are you saying that you would actually welcome assistance or even input of some sort from women on such matters?

BlueDiamond
10th May 2004, 14:41
Was that a response to my question, hamasandtahini? You love what??

:confused:

Ralph the Bong
18th May 2004, 06:10
Just another though, funny how it is always OK for females to be rude and deliver put downs to males. In fact such rude behaviour is socially encouraged.

Females who do this are deemed to be assertive, confident women. Men who behave this way are misogynists and bastards.

However men recieve these titles even if they are defending themselves against some women who has attacked them. This is sexism at its extreme. If women "demand equality", then they can expect a verbal backhander when ever they think they can be rude or deliver put downs to men. Fair enough?

I am not in the habit of being rude to people, if I am and realize it later, I always feel remorseful. However, I see nothing wrong with putting females(or anyone) in their place when the need arises. After all, my self-esteem is far more important than theirs.

Part of the 'liberation' of men requires that we both earn respect and DEMAND it. Nothing else will suffice.:ok:

............................................................ ......................................

In respose to your question Blue, help would be apprieciated, but I dont think it will be willingly forthcoming. Too many females would regard this as an attack on female 'rights' and would be opposed. Funny, when I read Germains Greer's book (the one from the '60's, not the recent paedeophillic one) when I was 14 and it was evident to me that equality of the sexes had a lot to offer men and thus was a concpt worthy of support. I think that it is about time females realized this too.

ZK-NSJ
18th May 2004, 06:18
i went to nelson college, and had salvi as a headmaster, hes an ok guy, but i think the whole issue has been overstated,
its just a bunch of tshirts with slogans on them, is salvi encouraging us to look at womans shirts (just to see the slogan ofcourse :E )

flapsforty
18th May 2004, 08:04
Just another though, funny how it is always OK for females to be rude and deliver put downs to males.

We obviously do not live in the same universe Mr Bong. The world I live in, being rude and putting people down is not the preferred modus operandi.
For either of the sexes.
Which is why I have removed your last post.

BlueDiamond
18th May 2004, 09:05
funny how it is always OK for females to be rude and deliver put downs to males.
It is never o.k. Ralph and, contrary to your perception, that sort of attitude has nothing to do with assertiveness. It is simply rudeness, aggression or bad manners.

my self-esteem is far more important than theirs.
Not true. It is neither more important nor less important. The only person it matters to is you but I do not believe that any measure of self esteem is to be derived from ...


putting females(or anyone) in their place
If you feel that the only way you can make your own candle appear brighter is by blowing out someone else's, then there may be confidence issues there that might benefit from frank examination.

Ralph the Bong
20th May 2004, 12:17
Flaps and Blue, I do thank you for your postings. I am, however, rather surprised that that the post regarding t-shirts was deleted by the moderator as the last inference that it contained was quite plainly tounge-in-cheek.

To reiterate for those who missed it, if a man is reading the motif on a female's tee-shirt(obviously there to be read) and she accuses him of staring at her mamalian protroberances(implying that he is a slathering perve),he can simply rectify the situation by pointing out that he is simply reading the words on her shirt and that she should not assume from this that he has any sexual attraction towards her. I am sure that many males would be able to indentify with the point made.

being rude and putting people down is not the prefered modus operandi

Gee-whiz, I am glad that we are in perfect agreement in this regard, Flaps, but what is the point of saying that I am "from another universe". Do you feel so threatened that I hold a perspective with which you are not comfortable with that you need to insult me? I find this weak.

Blue, regretably, some people seek win-lose outcomes when engaging in interpersonal dialoges. I personally prefer win-win senarios, but we are not all cut from the same cloth. Some, male and female, are just plain a..holes.

If a bully attacks you, seeking to enhance their self-esteem by putting you down, how would you handle it? Would you walk away, thus artificially allowing their self-worth to be enhanced at your expense? How would you feel knowing that this person now has a lowered perception of your human worth and feels free to continue to attack you (or your gender) at will? I am sure that you would not permit it. Why should I?

If the only outcome is a win-lose situation, it is better to be the side that wins. Who knows, with the realization that you do not tolerate unjustified put downs, the long term outcome could well be win-win. Putting someone in their place does not mean putting them down, I]it means putting them in their place.[/I] Sometimes, one needs to do this and it is never a pleasant task. As a fresher at university I once held the door open for a woman who was carrying a great pile of books( her gender was unimportant, I would have done the same for a bloke) I gave her a friendly smile to which she responded with "Well, do you expect me to f..k you or something?" I was too stunned to respond. How does one deal with bullies such as this?

I recall that in grade 5 I changed schools and I was the victim of a bully from grade 6. I tried hard to avoid this bully but was tracked down at every turn. One day, the bully lay in wait for me and attacked me with a rain of blows. I landed one decisive punch and the bully retreated bawling with blood gushing from the nose. Despite the justness of the situation it was not one from which I derived the slightest modicum of joy. However, the bully never gave me trouble again.

I should clarify a point for you:it is not my perception that a rude female is acting assertively, I said that this was a social perception.

Blue, you go on to say:

"If you feel that the only way you can make your own candle appear brighter is by blowing out someone else's, then there may be confidence issues there that might benefit from frank examination."

With all due respect, what sort of rubbish is this? I never said that I enhanced my self-esteem by putting people down. I said that I retained my self-esteem by putting people in their place when the need arised. The inference that you delivered is invention. See, there: Now I've put you in your place.

I find it both amusing and disappointing that I have made it clear that men should not accept rudeness or put downs based on gender(which is both the topic of the thread and somthing that the woman's movement has fought for for years) and the response is that:

1) I am not just from another planet, but from another universe. And:
2) I have self-esteem issues.

Surely you two can contribute somthing with greater worth than thaT:hmm:

flapsforty
20th May 2004, 12:43
Mr Bong, Feel free to hold/defend your ideas here.
Moderating this small corner of the internet forces me to intervene when you or anybody else posts things that go against the rules & practices here.
As I have done.

No more no less; whatever conclusions you draw from that is up to you. :)

BlueDiamond
20th May 2004, 13:08
I'm not quite sure how best to explain the way I think on these issues, Ralph, but I'll give it a go.

If a bully attacks you, seeking to enhance their self-esteem by putting you down, how would you handle it? Would you walk away, thus artificially allowing their self-worth to be enhanced at your expense? How would you feel knowing that this person now has a lowered perception of your human worth and feels free to continue to attack you (or your gender) at will? I am sure that you would not permit it. Why should I?

There's a lot in just that small paragraph. If I was in a situation where that was happening, I would recognise that it was some need within that person that was driving them to these actions. Since I would feel no particular need in myself to respond in kind, I probably would walk away. I have no interest in being manipulated into certain responses by the words or actions of others. If they then choose to perceive that I have "less self-worth" as a result of that, then that is an opinion to which they are entitled. The opinion of such a person is not one to which I would give much credit.

I believe we are of the same opinion on the matter of rudeness to a person based on gender and that derogatory comments made on that basis are not acceptable. However, it is obvious that you and I handle such issues in differing ways. You prefer to react from the feeling that your self-esteem is being attacked (if I have understood you correctly) whereas I react from a belief that my self-esteem does not depend on the words and actions of others and needs no defending.

panda-k-bear
20th May 2004, 19:20
Nah. It definitely works both ways.

Soon-to-be Mrs p-k-b told me so, and she's always right - she told me that as well.

Please do carry on your slanging match - I offer only a brief interlude.

Davaar
20th May 2004, 19:25
Ah Panda, that second line. And you thought she was joking.