View Full Version : The Milk Cow/Man's best friend/The Car

4th May 2004, 11:43
Opinions on Freelanders anyone?

I'm looking to change my car to something more practical (got a sprog now you see:D ) and that I can tow a hefty trailer with.

I quite fancy the new shape Freelander (version with BMW diesel engine) but whenever I say that to people they go "oooh, you not thinking of one of THOSE are you?".

They seem to have a terrible reputation and yet they're the most popular 4x4 in Britain and have very good trade-in values. :confused:

Has anyone got any opinions or comparisons with other options, i.e. Mitsubishi Shogun Sport (smaller than the normal Shogun), Nissan X-Trail etc..?

Evening Star
4th May 2004, 12:01
Had one for a couple of years. No problems, fine on road and reasonably competent off road. Trade in for petrol not as strong as diesel.

4th May 2004, 12:05
Two years ago the missus wanted to swap her Defender for something new and a bit smaller. We looked at the Freelander and compared it with others in the same class. I can't remember the exact figures now but we settled for the Shogun Pinin. It had as standard everything that was an extra on the Freelander. To have loaded the freelander with all the Shogun's goodies would have taken the FL price to about £18750 IIRC. We got the brand new Shogun for £12,500. And they threw in a year's free insurance plus free warranty which Land rover did not.

To date the only thing that has gone wrong was a sloppy catch on the ashtray which kept falling open they replaced it no prob (pointing out that filling ashtray with coins prolly didn't help).

4th May 2004, 12:09
Shogun Sport - nah, I've been a pax in a few, driven 1 and well, they're tiny inside and not much cop-all being told. A full blown shogun... I'm more of a fan of. (sorry Gainsey!)

Freelander - yup as far as I can tell a nice little motor, I've only driven the 2.5V6 which was v nice, silent on the motorway, great for cruising and can tug a decent sized caravan without probs - all in a lovely car (but petrol costs would bankrupt a small arab state within a few months!). The new diesel is a cracking engine from every story I've heard. They're supposed to be full of niggles but the folks I know who've had them, haven't had any problems. and the new models which are out & about now have generally had all the minor probs from the past sorted now. (you have to ask yourself would they REALLY be that popular if they were REALLY that bad?) Their popularity also should ensure you'll always be able to sell it on in 6 months or 2 years time.

Nissan X-Trail, never been in one, don't know an awful lot about them. Sorry. The Honda CRV is also one to consider but again, I've not tried one of those so can't talk. So in a choice between the Shogun Sport & Freelander, the Freelander wins with me hands down.

However, you could always consider a slightly older Discovery, thats my motor of choice at the moment & I'm a happy chap with it. LOADS of room (fitted a double mattress in mine without bending it in half), and you'll be able to bully and force your way out at junctions :E

Editing to say... I'd also like a Mitsubishi Warrior Pick-Up ... just incase anyone from Mitsubishi UK is reading this & wants a unbiased opinion from an 'average joe'.

4th May 2004, 14:47
Topcat450 - Stay away from the Mitsubishi's! A friend of mine has one which is only six months old. It's full of rattles and creaks and has a homing instinct to the left hand kerb. Local Mitsubishi dealer has looked at it on many occasions and say that there's nothing wrong with it and it's now in the hands of Mitsubishi UK. They look great, but that's about it.

4th May 2004, 14:56
My info is a bit out of date, but I worked for Land Rover assistance about 3 years ago and Freelanders were an absolute nightmare. Possibly they were teething problems that were being ironed out - especially in relation to the technology, but there were 5 serious known faults that kept occurring:

- Electronic Throttle body would stick, causing engine to rev with no input on pedal

- Clutch hydraulics failed - had to be replaced but at that time the problem had not been properly rectified

- Brakes got stuck on if car left for a few days undriven

- Head gasket blew regularly

- Windows (especially the rear) liable to blow out for no apparent reason.

4th May 2004, 15:17
I've had my X-Trail for 15 months now. 2.2 Diesel, with 6 gears.Option of 2, 4 wheel or auto select drive, on touch of a button.
Superb motor can't fault it. Plenty of room inside and the spare is under the floor, not hanging off the rear or sitting upright in the rear!:ok:

4th May 2004, 16:32
Freelander? :yuk:

Two years ago some daft blonde tart in a gold one with a personalised numberplate reversed into my car. She accepted responsibility, apologised, then told the insurance company it was my fault.

It took me a year to get it sorted... Despite the fact I had a witness. :rolleyes: :{

Of course that's a terribly female point of view and has nothing to do with engine size, torque, engineering etc. :ok:

Bob Upndown
4th May 2004, 16:57
Freelanders? Great car once you get round the $hite dealer network. Really, most of them are rubbish. I have now managed to find an excellent dealer - Harwoods in Pulborough (if that's any use), but stay right away from Gatwick Land Rover.

Rant mode off.

The Freelander TD4 5dr Kalahari I have is now a year old and is simply excellent. The early model teething troubles now appear to have been fixed and it's a dream to drive. The TD4's definitely hold their value far more than petrol and have a great turbo on the BMW engine that pulls like a dream.

If looking for a Disco, word on the street is that a new one is due out sometime in the not-too-distant future so might be worth waiting for that.

4th May 2004, 16:59
but have you seen the piccies of the new disco...:yuk: :yuk:

sorry...won't hijack the thread anymore

4th May 2004, 17:02
My management swapped her Espace for a Nissan X-Trail last October and is very pleased with it . 2.5 petrol , leather heated seats , full length electric sun roof , climate control , etc. , etc. The boot space is bigger than the Freelander ( for the Lab. (not xtc!!! ) ) and I've heard stories about the Freelander propshaft and other things. In short .....pleased.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
4th May 2004, 17:12
and you'll be able to bully and force your way out at junctions

Pretty well confirms my view on the only reason why anyone who doesn't need good off-road performance would buy one of these appaling 'Chelsea Tractor' type of vehicles.


4th May 2004, 17:16
Pretty well confirms my view on the only reason why anyone who doesn't need good off-road performance would buy one of these appaling 'Chelsea Tractor' type of vehicles. Have you seen the height of some of the speed-humps here in London, Mate? I tell you, you need a bl00dy 4x4 just to get around these days!!!!! :D ;) :D ;)

4th May 2004, 17:22
Have a look at the subaru estate 4x4 I pull a diving rib with one and its excellent.

Next best thing is a L200 mitsubishi pickup with winch.

Tons of torque, back suspension is meaty enough not to eat shocks pulling trailers. Can't get them second hand though. They are also a swine to insure. The ones with the hard top on the back seem to be the most useful. They don't go very fast but can carry a ton of gear plus tow a 4 tonne boat and get 5 in the front in comfort. The winch up north is a god send for pulling things out of ditches and boats up slips etc.


You want it when?
4th May 2004, 17:25
The boss has an older ('98) 1.8 petrol three door thing. It's great, comfortable, CD, AC, targa roof comes off. Had it for a couple of years or so - two faults.

1. Rear UJ went a bit floppy and was replaced by the local dealer at cost.

2. Rocker Cover started to weep. £11 part, £95 labour. Must find a cheaper garage.

She must like it as all her previous cars have been changed in under a year - making me most favoured customer at the local garage. This one she wants to keep.

4th May 2004, 17:31
Ouch..chelsea tractor indeed...wish I could afford to live in chelsea.

My babe does get taken off road...as can be confirmed by the feckin scratches I managed to put on the sides at easter...and again last week. Photos of muddy wheels are available upon request. :ok: Pics are also available showing that anything with lower ground clearence wouldn't have made it through.

C'mon SSD... I was being tongue in cheek

4th May 2004, 17:32
Just got a Honda CRV on contract hire - cheaper this way than my 2 previous Scenics. Looks good, very comfy, nice to drive and way up there on the reliability stakes but no diesel version for better towing. FL and Disco are way down there on the reliability stakes - just check out the latest JD Power survey, available somewhere on www.autoexpress.co.uk. Daily Telegraph favours the X-Trail as a mid-sized 4x4 for towing.

Flap Sup
4th May 2004, 19:46
4x4 - bah, humbug! What you need is 6x6: I have driven the Kamaz 43114 on several occations and I own (a part in) a Ural 4320. I have never lacked power or stowing space in one of those. On the downside, the are awfully hard to park and challenging to drive in heavy traffic, but worst is the fuel economy. Never the less - great vehicles.

4th May 2004, 21:40

We should get together some time... you a techie by any chance?

re Wrecks, you show me yours and I'll show you mine :E

know sod all about Freelanders, Defenders will climb a wall, but if you're looking for reliability go for Toyota (groan...) Nissan look good but cant take the hardship. Mitsi ok for light duty. Thats my experience.

End of the day, it will come down to price

5th May 2004, 09:31
Thanks for the comments everyone.:ok: I'm still rather undecided - my head says X-Trail, but heart says Freelander.

Maybe I'll just buy a bike and be done with it.

5th May 2004, 09:57
For what it's worth, the Telegraph's tame man in the motor trade, who writes as Honest John, always advises against going anywhere near a Freelander as their reliability and customer satisfaction is awful.

5th May 2004, 12:12
I know of a couple of people who have had problems with thheir freelanders, all electronic problems.

If you want to go off road, you want a Toyota landcruiser!

Wee Weasley Welshman
5th May 2004, 12:23
Buy a used BMW X5? Better in every respect, will depreciate less than a new Freelander and therefore cost less to own. There are some now escaping the BMW dealer network into private and trade sales.

A whole league above the ageing Freelander.




Just looked at a well known UK car trading publication... Taking a Freelander HSE for £23k with no options I think it compares very badly to this:


5 door, Oxford Green 2 Metallic Beige Leather, 59000 miles,

Climate Control, Leather Upholstery , WITH 59,000 MILES FROM NEW WITH A TOTAL, FULL BMW MANUFACTURERS SERVICE HISTORY THROUGHOUT. Roof Rails, STEPTRONIC AUTOMATIC, 18\'\' Alloy Wheels, Spotlight Front Foglights, Full Child Safety Window Lock, Electric Steering Column Adjustment, Electric Memory Seats, Rain Sensitive Windscreen, Headlight Washer Package, Burr Walnut Interior Trims, Multi Functional Steering Wheel + Cruise Control, Dynamic Stability Control, Business Stereo Package, Front & Rear Parking Distance Control Sensors, Drivers Front Central Armrest, Multi Airbag Protection System, Alarm with Thatcham 1 Approved Immobiliser System, Heated Front Seats, 1 OWNER WITH FULL BMW MAIN DEALER SERVICE HISTORY *** FANTASTIC VALUE FOR MONEY, IMMACULATE THROUGHOUT....



The Landrover would be much less capable and poorly equipped in comparison. Its just as likely to need maintenance and its going to lose you 55% of its value at least within 3 years.



5th May 2004, 13:18
The BMW X5 is about as much good off road as a Sinclair C5 would be!! Not really a true off roader.

5th May 2004, 13:29
If you get a freelander make sure its a diesel. The petrol model has poor residuals and the k series engine is shocking. The poor little 1.8 litre petrol just isnt up to it, it was designed for the mgf and is very niosy at anything over 65-70mph.Furthermore the cylinder head gaskets have a nasty habit of blowing at anything over 16,000 miles, two guys at work both had this problem. That said though the freelander is probably the best you can get for that amount of money especially with a diesel engine. One other piont, if 4x4 is not a must, you could go down the mini MPV route.

Wee Weasley Welshman
5th May 2004, 14:40
But how offroad do you want to go?

An X5 handles muddy fields and green lanes and not much else. But are you going to take a new Freelander properly off road - banging the suspension about, scratching and chipping the paintwork etc?

I think most 4*4's are bought because of their commodious family friendly configuration, visibility, image, towing and lastly off road ability. The Freelander and X5 both.

A £5k Defender plus a £20k 5 Series seems a better option to me if you do need proper offroading ability from time to time.



5th May 2004, 16:12
They are very prone to rolling over if they hit small humps when not in a straight tracking line

Flip Flop Flyer
5th May 2004, 16:45
.... but quality and the ability to being driven every day is .....

I would cast long and loving glances in the direction of Maranello and Newport Pagnell, then agree with myself that the ability to being driven every day is not incorporated in these machines. But that DB9 (designed by a Dane of course) is a beauty, and if someone threw a 360 Modena at me I wouldn't exactly throw it back at him, and certainly not her! I would start looking for a female Ferrari mechanic to date though ;)

It would need to be something that goes like the clappers, yet not be impossible to drive when the road's a bit wet and slippery. It would need to handle like a go-cart, without sacrificing every ounce of comfort. It will need to look good.

Mine's a Porsche 911 Turbo. Silvergrey with red leather and all the options one can possibly buy ab factory, if you please. Sadly, I didn't win the 3 Million Euro's on offer in the Lotto last week, otherwise I'd be driving it instead of dreaming of it.

What's yours?

5th May 2004, 16:49
Although originally hailing from Blackpool,home of scary Speed 12 TVR's.
Got to go for A Mercedes SL55 AMG...sheer class.

5th May 2004, 16:55
For fun ... BMWZ3

For everyday ... Ford Fairlane

For fishing & off-road ... old Landy

Biggles Flies Undone
5th May 2004, 16:57
Find it very difficult to fault your logic there FFF. The Turbo really is a supercar that you could use every day. I’d be highly tempted by a Vantage, though – such a good looking car and they sound fabulous.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
5th May 2004, 17:01
Vantage soft top. There are more practical chariots, but I'd live with that.:)


5th May 2004, 17:02
Something I can get my Golfclubs in, probably a soft top, Jag XK in britsh racing green.
For when I'm in cornwall it has to be a Citroen 2CV with the huge canvas sunroof because nobody can get over 40MPH in the summer with all the emmets. Can definately get my clubs in one of them. If not the 2CV then an ex forces series 3 SWB air transportable V8 landy. Don't need to lock it 'cos who's going to nick one of them.

Flip Flop Flyer
5th May 2004, 17:08
Agreed, the DB7 Vantage Cabrio is probably one of the most beautiful cars ever built. Brother of a collegue owns one (2 years old, 8000 km - bastard!) and I've sat in one with the engine purring away, but going nowhere. Mmmmmmmmmm, nice :ok:

5th May 2004, 17:25
Ferrari 456 GT

without question the most beautiful car ever made, in my opinion of course!

5th May 2004, 17:42
Just here to introduce another aspect...

Cars are not ladies. It doesn't really matter what they look like. What's important is that they sound right. Big American V8s with Holley carbs like in the Bullit Mustang... :ok: V12 Ferraris like the 365 Daytona in the Gumball Rally are also... :ok: Any currently produced road-going Porsche sounds... :yuk: As do most of today's "sports cars"... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: The fat slobs who ride Harley-Davidsons know all about what a motor should sound like... :\

5th May 2004, 17:53
err I wouldn't say techie as such.

Been Doing It Wrong for about 13 years now.

Started with a single cylinder, Single DV, ABLJ mouth inflated.

Now have twin 12's manifolded, Wing, Long hose, Double redundency. Breath funny gases if the needs must. And always carry a stage of 50/50 when below 35meters. Bloody hell old and sensible. The others are starting to play with rebreathers now and due to the 48hr rule I haven't been able to get my hair wet in nearly a year.

OK I will start the wrecks race with my ace

Graf Spey, River Plate. :D but it was bloody awful.

Learned while in Glasgow so done most of the Clyde wrecks lost a couple of m8's on them as well. Alot of the west coast. Scapa is just up the road. But prefer the outer islands and shetland wrecks.


5th May 2004, 17:59
I wouldn't be messing about with all these shite birds cars - when I can go buy a decent one for a fraction of the cost & feel what it's like to drive a real car:

E-type DHC
Aston DB4
Any 60's Ferrari
Porsche Speedster

'nuff said


5th May 2004, 18:24
A 59 Cadillac convertable in eldarado trim, something like this (http://www.pink-cadillac.de/modules.php?set_albumName=album43&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

What's the point of a super car, no one can see you in them, you can't drive em to their limits, and you can't check out girls easy in em, they are expensive to run and maintain, and they aren't terribly comfortable, and they are very hard to get laid in....

But you can take a caddy onto the strip and cruise VERY slowly with the top down and have girls lean their scantily clad tops in at you, and you can have a BUNCH of scantily clad girls in the back...


Hmmmm, guess we can't put pictures in here anymore...

Wee Weasley Welshman
5th May 2004, 18:48
One car - that rules out a two seater and I'll need a boot.

Hence I would have a RR Phantom.

Dearly love an Elise in the boot though...



5th May 2004, 19:05
Have to agree, `twould be the DB9

Flap Sup
5th May 2004, 19:30
Tatra 813 ! No doubt. Although it would be difficult to park. And slightly too noisy for everyday use. Mabye slightly too fuelconsuming too. Naah, I'd take the Tatra anyway.

5th May 2004, 19:43
A 1954 Rolls-Royce Silver Dawn - no whitewalls, thanks.

5th May 2004, 20:11
Ditto here, started with a leaky Fenzi... now on to twin 7s or 12s depending on the site (big into this redundancy thing) two Cyklons, both on long hoses. NOx home brew for all dips, rocket fuel (He) for anything over 45, expensive but worth it. Side mount the 7s with deco, all on a Buddy Trident - works a treat.

Like yerself, work has f**ked me over in the past year or so. Diving out of Malin, 9M Club RIB, new Sub found in 40 odd last year, had Innes on site... fantastic vis - turn your light off! Alt venue SE coast, mates have a 6.5 Delta, get your slack right & a multitude to plunder , Ooops, observe..

Be Good :ok:

5th May 2004, 20:12
For Bombay traffic, it HAS to be the Maruti-Suzuki 800....

Otherwise for dashes on the Mumbai-Pune Expressway (mind you not entering Pune) it would have to be the Merc SL55 AMG. The DB9 would do too, thankyouverymuch :) Even the SLK 230 is fine with me.... or yes, Tendulkar's Ferrari...

Ric Capucho
5th May 2004, 20:19
Hmm, Porsche Cayenne Turbo would do nicely. Summat for taking the kids to the mountains for skiing. Ugly as fcuk, but still got a 'presence', in the spirit of Vinnie Jones, I suppose.

Failing that, the VW Touareg V10. But me misses won't let me. :-(

Bloody Grand Cherokee it is.


5th May 2004, 20:36
10 cylinders, 230 kW and 750 Newtonmeter torque. Accelerates from 0 to 100 kmh in 7,8 sekunder, topspeed 225 kmh. Spells VW Touareg.


5th May 2004, 21:12
Tatra 813 ! No doubt. Although it would be difficult to park. And slightly too noisy for everyday use. Mabye slightly too fuelconsuming too. Naah, I'd take the Tatra anyway.

I once took a ride through Chelsea in a mid-'60s Tatra, the "round" shaped one with a rear-mounted V8. Everyone that saw us was creasing up in laughter, it'd be worth buying one just to see people's faces when you're in it :p

The advert for the Tatra read: "Rear-mounted V8, can propel 7 Bond villains at well over 100mph. Numerous gadgets include petrol-powered heating (quite a sensible system when you're in a Czech restaurant in minus-10 weather fraternising with your secret-service buddies). The chap who imported said machine stated that when he was on the Czech roads everyone pulled out of his way as they instantly thought he was secret Police!

There are too many wonderful cars to have just one. I recently saw a road-going Porsche 962 for sale, a snip at 300K euros.

My dream list would include:
Lancia: Stratos, 037 and "bread van" Delta S4 (the machine that finally put the Kaibosh on Group B rallying). Jaguar XK150 fixed-head. Citroen Light 15, DS convertible and SM convertible.

I'll have to stop before my keyboard gets any more saliva on it.


5th May 2004, 21:15
I would have

1. A van that I can use to chuck stuff in without worrying about messing up the carpet and just sweep out the dirt from the wood and rubber floor. Just big enough for a couple of trail bikes to go in the back would be ideal.

2. An Ultima for quiet harmless fun on the track. For those who don't know what an Ultima is, look here: http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/gtr/

3. A Bentley Coupe would be alright to go to the shops in if the van was off the road ;)

Noah Zark.
5th May 2004, 21:24
No question about it. It can only be the Loxley Lozenge! (But whilst I was in New York last week, there were one or two of them there VW Phaeton jobbies wazzin around with a great whoosh and a lot of presence.) :eek:

5th May 2004, 21:36
Land rover defender, short wheelbase with a 4 tonne trailor for stuff.

And a Massey Fergusson 6000 series

And a nice Bentley.

5th May 2004, 22:04
Stone me mad_jock and mini. You know Danny doesn't allow foreign language posts in here!!!

:E :E

5th May 2004, 22:42
Ford GT40

Why did they not perpetuate the line?

and for about town..

an Avling Barford road roller.:E

5th May 2004, 22:59
Calling motorheads,

Thinking about binning the old dagenham dustbin & getting my hot little hands on either an Audi A4 or a Golf Mk4.

I fancy the A4 a bit more, on the basis that it's abit more of a 4 wheeled sofa. Any views on these??


5th May 2004, 23:04
Think it's down to badge snobbery,

Could be wrong but isn't the Golf, A3, Seat Leon, and a Skoda model all based on the same chasis?

Personally I would also go for the A4, The new golf looks great but the new A4 looks better (or even the new Saab 9-3?)


5th May 2004, 23:31
What about the Audi TT Convertible Parapunter? Verrrry nice:ok:


5th May 2004, 23:43

White Bear
6th May 2004, 00:04
Don't know about snobbery, will leave that to you experts over there.

As an Audi owner (A6) I can say I'm very pleased with it and would happily buy one again. As for the difference between Audi's and V.W., Audi's seem to be finished with a little more thought, both inside and out.

6th May 2004, 00:07
Morris Minor Traveller

6th May 2004, 01:31
'57 T-Bird convertible. Barring that, a '63 Impala SS convertible. :cool:

6th May 2004, 02:01
Pagani Zonda. The old Grand Turismo 3 on PS2 introduced it to me, and then saw it on Top Gear in the UK.

I want one................just one.

6th May 2004, 05:48
According to my husband,H1 is a real babe magnet. I let him drive it once,now it's his.

I warned him about the vanity tag I'm about to slap on it:PBWOBW.;)

6th May 2004, 07:20
Always wanted a 993 Carrera 4S.
Last and best of the air cooled Porsches.
Dream just fulfilled.


6th May 2004, 07:38
A beat up battered old land rover that has had a few adventures.
For flash, a sleek, silent, elegant Mercedes soft top, maybe an old one but still in immaculate condition, with a beautifull walnut dashboard.

6th May 2004, 08:48
Mack Magnum prime mover with 18L Cummins, 45-foot trailer tricked up as a super motor-home, complete with hangar space at the rear for the little aeroplane.

Where does a 38 tonne truck park? Anywhere it bloody well wants to! :D

6th May 2004, 09:22
Practical Car Choice.
Landrover Defender 110 CSW 300TDi

Less practical Car
Landrover defender 90 CSW 300TDi (I've got one and wouldn't swap it for anything)

Impractical Car
Caterham 7

Daft Car
Chrysler Crossfire

6th May 2004, 09:29
Hey Blue Diamond you just about described my fleet :D

I have the Z3 (2.8 L of course) which is a whole load of fun especially when you switch off the traction control.
I have the Landie, although it is a Disco, but great for the weekend barbies and the best beach here on fantasy island is only approachable by 4 wheel drive.
I also have a Toyota Corrolla, what can I say, it's the company car but a good little run around still.

I had my fantasy car, Lotus Esprit turbo many years ago now, brilliant it was but since then I have no real hankering for a special car. I guess I am spoiled. :O
Boats now!

Can only dream about a Sunseeker Predator 75, :) :)

Fantasy Boat (http://www.sunseeker.com/range/performance/p75.htm)

On On

Flip Flop Flyer
6th May 2004, 09:59

Why not go for a real ship instead of a motorised bathtub - albeit a rather nice bathtub with a mighty big engine :ok:


6th May 2004, 10:18
Sirwa, which beach would that be then? (Just got a 4x4 and want to go exploring.....!)

And if we're talking boats.............Wally (http://www.wally.com) can't be beat!

6th May 2004, 11:51
Wholi your just lucky we didn't lauch into the standard arms race over who's got the biggest knife or torch.

Dubs keeps threatening to go somewhere hot to learn to dive.
I get to teach him how to dive and he will show me how to drink properly.

Diving is very similar to flying.

Redundancy is good

Gas on you back is similar to fuel in your tanks.

Going up to fast is very similar to coming down to fast.

And when the shite hits the fan you just have to deal with your lot with what you have.

And the faster your boat the more expensive it gets.

Anyway sorry for Thread Highjacking.

If you want to go off road properly the best thing on the market is a series 2 landy with a petrol engine and thin off road tyres.


Flap Sup
6th May 2004, 11:57
I agree with you regarding choice of boat producer only, as the X73 is not a practical ship. However, should you want something useful, check out the IMX40 or IMX45. They are real racing machines. I know that the subject of this thread is motors, so I'll pass on the fantasy boats for now. Now, if you chose an X79 instead, you would have a (small) quick boat that could fit on a trailer. That trailer could be towed by a Kamaz, Ural or Tatra (back on the subject of motors now!). Either one of these vehicles could pull a trailer weighing a few tonnes without having to reduce gear or speed. Now isn't that handy!


Props are for aircraft only! Piston engines are for cars only !


6th May 2004, 11:58
Porsche GT3 in the 993 shape

Flip Flop Flyer
6th May 2004, 13:43
Indeed, all X-yachts are nice boats. Almost did get myself a well used, but properly maintained, X-79 then thought better of it. The waters around DK are, after all, only sailable in some sort of comfort for 3 months a year. Hardly worth the investment. Mate's got a 37 foot motor yacht, which he also lives on, that we use to cruise the sound these days, but we've been known to do it in anything from hobies over jetskies, speed boats and an assortment of sailing boats. Wonderful sport, sailing, but very expensive! Put an engine in anything that floats, and watch your money going down the drain valves in floods. With sails, not only are you sailing properly, you're also saving loads and loads of dosh.


You advocate a massive Sunseeker, and then call my X-73 impractical? Did I miss a point somewhere along the way? :p

Send Clowns
6th May 2004, 14:11
I'd have to disagree, BahrainLad. The Wally Power can be beaten! (http://www.vsvboats.com/). The designers have also done some very nice multi-hull racing yachts, proper boats with sails!

6th May 2004, 15:17
....before someone driving an MX-5 will put the flipping roof down?! It's been loverly round here recently but every MX-5 I see has got the roof up... why do they buy convertibles if they don't like driving with the wind in their hair??

Oooh, it makes my blood boil, it really does...


Biggles Flies Undone
6th May 2004, 15:30
Maybe they're worried their hair-do will mess up.

6th May 2004, 15:32
"Premier Pad-mini convertible "

Convertible??!!! Since when?!

And my god why would ANYONE want to travel in one of those? with all of 40 bhp engines....

Tonic Please
6th May 2004, 16:05
I dont know, but I wonder how COLD it has to be for a beamer convertible driver to put his UP!

Been quite chilly and a bi wet even, and they still have them down.

I need to start a rant on 4x4 drivers im afraid, so here goes!


6th May 2004, 16:27
Guess Beamer drivers usually don't have any hair to worry about.

Oh, and Beamer drivers don't have blood to boil. They have ichor.

Tonic Please
6th May 2004, 16:29
At work the other day, and we are opposite the exit to the car park (some might know it...in West Byfleet opposite the Music Shop?)

A 4x4 Rover came round, left it too late, and slowly took it round, being careful not to hit the curb incase he damaged his suspension. :rolleyes: He REVERSES and goes round!!!

Then, some normal car comes round, gets oneself in the same predicament, and thinks "bastardd curb" and revs over it.

What is it with you 4x4 ers?


6th May 2004, 18:56
Lovely swift justice in La Cala this week.

Sat having a pint with the OH.
Line of cars opposite all correctly parked in marked spaces.
Up draws a scrap metal contractors wagon..stops..puts down rams. Uses grab to remove one of those French Citroen machines from parking spot and dumps it on top of scrap in truck...crushes car, ups rams and drives off.:ok:

Applause from collected assembly of drinkers!:E

7th May 2004, 11:46
Just needed to have a rant about a bad experience with a Renault Dealership yesterday! I won't name drop but they're in Norwich.

£435 for a service, MOT and a couple of new tyres. Seemed rather alot for a Clio.. not a sporty version just a boring 1.2 litre shopping trolley. Did they confuse it with a Porshe perhaps? :confused:

I can't see any point in maintaing the dealership service history because it wouldn't increase its value that much would it??

I wouldn't mind paying extortionate rates for servicing if the standard is top quality, but at this place you: -
- hover around their reception like a lemon until they can be bothered to notice you
- pay for a loan car or risk your luck on their seemingly random drop-off/pick-up service
- get your car back after its service having been washed but actually dirtier than when it went in!
- charged for windscreen washer even though it was full
- get new tyres fitted but need to take it somewhere else to sort out their bodged attempt at tracking.

Cowboys. :mad:

Rant over! Anybody else got any dealership nightmares? :bored:


7th May 2004, 12:14
I took my old VW into a main dealer in Kent a few years ago as there was a persistent problem that my local garage at the time could't find. They gave me a list of things that needed replacing that made my eyes water - estimated cost around £800! This was all for a car worth, well, around £800.

While I was in there I heard one of the mechanics trying to persuade a lady customer that some surface rust on the sump of her car would require it to be replaced!

Incidentally, they recommended replacing the radiator in my car. That was 1997/98 and I still own the car - still with the same radiator!

Main dealer servicing is fine for expensive cars where is makes a difference to the value but I think the case is marginal for cars worth, say, under £10k. If I was in the market for a new car I would use the dealer until the warranty had expired (normally a condition) then go straight to my local garage who do a great job. I think that your might suffer a value shock if you try to trade it back into a main dealer (who prefer to retail stuff with main dealer histories) but a private buyer is probably only going to want to see a nice row of stamps and oily fingerprints in the service book and will understand when you explain why you didn't use the main dealer network.

If you do use a local garage, it is worth getting hold a copy of the service schedule from the manufacturer to make sure that type-specific things are done on schedule (cam belt and brake fluid changes etc.) that your mechanic might not do as a matter of course.

7th May 2004, 14:44

One for fans of those irritating kids on the Vauxhall ads!!!

Happy weekend everyone! :ok:

8th May 2004, 10:29

I think your slightly confused, I never said a word about your boat :confused:

Looks like a cracking piece of kit to me, if you can be bothered with all that rag top nonsence :p

BahrainLad Great beaches at Durrat al Bahrain, drive all the way down the island as far as the road goes and when you get level with the abandoned water park turn left on to the soft sand and drive very fast until you get to the beach. :ok:

On On

8th May 2004, 10:55
This site is worth a visit if you'd like to get some sweet revenge on the company that just screwed you over:


Have fun!




15th May 2004, 21:06
:ooh: Bloomin 'eck! That's bit steep. Does anyone know a goodun - I've done all the highway robbers I can think of, but they're all the same.

I blame all the drivers in hats/gloves/cabbies etc

Formally Known As
15th May 2004, 21:09
Well the stupid greedy insurance companies will get so heavy handed soon, it will be cheaper to "carry or own" insurance.

I detest them i really do.

15th May 2004, 22:38
esure.co.uk did mine for £200 cheaper than anyone else, worth a try maybe?

15th May 2004, 22:51
Been mentioned before, but something that really gives me the sh*ts is that on more than one occasion I have randomly rung up for a quote out of the blue with the company I was insured with, using my middle name and the neighbours address. On more than one occasion, the quote they gave me was less than the premium I was already paying. One of them retorted to me "It's illegal to provide false information to insurance companies" to which my reply of "I'm not signing anything or asking for a cover note, it was just an expression of interst AND ANYWAY why the f**k are you charging me more than this anyway. I'll be cancelling my policy right now thank you!".

15th May 2004, 23:13
Just this week we tried to put our 17 year old daughter (learner) onto Mrs TC's policy. Turned out to be cheaper to cancel our current policy with Churchill - we got a cracking deal from Norwich Union Direct.

15th May 2004, 23:13
More Than is good... and they ll prtotect ncb for life for small fee no matter how many accidents and claim they ll never put your premium up because of an accident....

And they were much cheaper than anyone else - despite my like of barrel rolling Volvos!

Standard Noise
17th May 2004, 04:00
I've just gone with the Halifax for the second year running, they were cheaper than esure (which strangely enough, is owned by the Halifax). The Halifax weren't phased by the points on my licence unlike esure, Lloyds, More Than, Privilege etc.

The only cheaper quote, by £11, was with Admiral, but they're a shower of ba****ds. They tried to claim that I hadn't told them of my points for two years running when I was a customer, and wanted an extra £1400 on top of the premium before they would renew the policy. After getting my renewal (with them assuming nul points) I checked their quote thingy online and got a cheaper quote even after admitting to 6 points!:confused: And they had the cheek to accuse me of trying to fiddle the system!

F:mad:g robbing b:mad:ds!!

17th May 2004, 04:40
As I drove home from work at 2.30 am today, I considered if it would be feasible and most importantly, safe, to increase the spped limit, by perhaps, 10 MPH between 0200 hours until 0500 hours ?

My journey covered 25 miles across urban and rural Essex and I passed half a dozen cars, and no pedestrians.

Obviously, lots of variables come into this, which is why it might make for an interesting discussion.

Perhaps it is suitable for certain roads/speed limits and not others ?

I'm sure we can bash it out here....?!

17th May 2004, 08:37
Went with Churchill in the end - Nearly 400 wing wangs, I'd like to give that dog a kick up it's gee. Oh yes:*

Evening Star
17th May 2004, 08:48
Well the stupid greedy insurance companies will get so heavy handed soon, it will be cheaper to "carry or own" insurance.

Have wondered about that recently when I considered how much money spent on car insurance (and household contents insurance) over the years against money claimed. Was deeply unhappy about where I was in the profit/loss side of things. Suppose I accept car insurance as it is one item and there is always the other idiot with the hat to worry about. However, for household contents, which covers a large number of items, the chance of loosing all seems remote, so in any year it would be possible to cover the loss of any individual item, especially seeing as they were bought piecemeal over a number of years.

Then there is the reputed increasing difficulty of getting insurance companies to pay out. Can think of a number of totalled car cases where the insurance company took advantage of knowing the insured normally has not got time to negotiate against a low offer.

One possibility I am considering for all insurance is to take a very high voluntary excess to really bring down the premium. That way I have to cover the day to day hassles without the additional hassle of dealing with the insurance companies, but hopefully the savings would allow me to put money aside for such events. At the same time, it would provide me cover for really catastrophic events. Cannot decide if I am being sensible or barking at the moon!

17th May 2004, 09:16
You can also try www.confused.com (http://www.confused.com ) who, when you input your details, fire them off to all the online-brokers and you get an email back an hour or so later with the cheapest price they've found. Has got me a good deal or two in the past.

but you're right, they are robbin' barstewards

17th May 2004, 09:24
Try Liverpool Victoria (google for numbers), they have consistently been the cheapest for me over the last 3 years.

17th May 2004, 10:07
Sorry, paracab. That would be too sensible.

Doesn't stand a chance. :(

17th May 2004, 10:55
Try Bell Direct.

Not only are they cheap but when a bollard jumped out in front of me in Sainsbury's car park, as they do, they handled the claim really well. They ended paying out more than the garages estimate as their adjuster insisted a damaged tyre was replaced when the garage said it was probably all right!

And the next year they didn't ramp the premium up either.

Have recommended them to mates who all seem to have got top deals as well so may be worth a try.

17th May 2004, 11:00
Definitely second the bell direct recommendation.

Great service, friendly staff and the renewal premium from them is consistently hundreds of pounds cheaper than the next lowest quote.

Been with them for years.


17th May 2004, 11:03
Agree totally…doesn’t stand a chance. Remember, “speed kills”
That 10mph increase or so might take you to the threshold where death is instantaneous. There’d be carnage people! ;)

17th May 2004, 12:37
Unfortunately, while it is a great idea, there would be those who would feel compelled to add an extra 10 miles an hour (or more) to the 10 miles an hour. And while I'm sure there are people here who could quite safely drive at 90 miles an hour, you can see on a daily basis those who clearly aren't safe driving at 50!

17th May 2004, 13:26
Paracab when I first went to Sweden several years ago I noticed road signs with two speeds on em. Laughingly I said to my friend who was driving "so you just choose your own speed limit eh, talk about freedom"... he duly laughed (out of friendship) then explained that in residential areas, where all those deemed "at risk" are expected to be home safely in the evenings, the upper of the two limits shown applies. I think it is between 7pm and 7am... something like that anyway. Seemed a mighty sensible idea to me (the speeds were, I think, 30km daytime and 40km night-time but I stand to be corrected).


17th May 2004, 13:26
With a fine of up to £5000 for driving without insurance it begs the question - how many people take the chance and save a fortune over the years?

I once worked at a car insurance firm and the postcodes, occupation and age of the driver were the common factors in price besides the obvious other factors like convictions and type of car. Once choked as I gave a newly qualified 18 year old lad a price for his first insurance of £2K and gasped as he rejoiced in the fact it was his best offer so far. He bought the policy. Makes ya sick dunnit?

Spivvy ole business is insurance.


17th May 2004, 13:46
I think we need to introduce Self Selection Thoroughfares (SSTs) where the minimum speed allowed is 85 mph with no maximum. The SST would be windy, slippy and in general verry dangerous. We can then just get all the carnage over with there and then. Survivors of the SST will then be allowed to drive on the public roads safe in the knowledge that all the pillocks bought it on the SST:E :E

someone just suggested the A1 is already an SST...

17th May 2004, 14:03
I think drivers should be more highly trained and taught to drive at high speed. Let's face it, most modern cars can quite safely and comfortably cruise along at 100mph, I'm sure with the help of some computer wizardry for safety we could easily have a speed limit of 100.

I remember being told by a police man that above about 80mph is where it becomes dangerous because things start happening very quickly and the brain doesn't get the proper time it needs to register the oncoming road/vehicles and therefore can't co-ordinate as well as when driving at slower speeds. (sh1t, all that in once sentence. Sorry, I'm to lazy to punctuate properly today :p )

17th May 2004, 14:08
Dear all,

Here are a few ideas that I feel should be implemented asap.

1) Driving tests every 5 years. Think of the increased revenue.
2) Speed limiters fitted to cars. Again think of the increased revenue.
3) Stricter enforcement of the Highway code in relation to middle lane malcolms, fog lights, etc.
4) Greater accountability and transparency from the government on the spending of money raised from motorists.



17th May 2004, 14:36
BHR the trouble with just re-testing is that the basic test is not good enough…it’s a starting point that keeps you safe while you gain experience and hopefully get better. The re-test should be about re- training to advanced levels of driving. This advanced level should be a requirement for ownership of any high performance car.

Limiters would get bypassed. IMHO its better to train to a higher standard than try to limit car performance. :ok:

17th May 2004, 14:46
I have been pleasantly surprised recently to find several local limits have been raised from 50kmh to 70kmh. These are long stretches without junctions. Everyone used to do 60-70 and yet some would still get caught by mobile radar traps, even with 2 out of 5 oncoming motorists flashing their headlights by way of warning, as is the custom hereabouts. 50 to 70 is a 40% jump!

But cars still take the same distance to stop, day or night. Drivers still need a minimum amount of time in order to react. And cars are not very solid, whatever you may have been lead to believe.

The day may come when car manufacturers incorporate safety devices (radar and other early warnings of impending dangers etc.) which will engage automatically to reduce speed. One day, they may even produce a car which will guarantee survival of the occupants in a 50mph + 50mph head-on...or even stop within 5 car lengths @50mph! Likewise, our taxes may in the future contribute to the building of more "express" roads, free of junctions and pedestrians, where the speed limits are more liberal. But I wouldn't bet on either.

Normal trafic conditions usually encourage / ensure a "safe" speed. When trafic is light, at certain times of the day or night, one may feel that the conditions do safely allow a higher speed. Until a school-kid or drunk pedestrian attempts to cross the road. Or a wild boar, deer or whatever else. Or someone stalls. 99.9% of the time, you'll get away with it...good enough for you?!

Otherwise, please ensure that your car is properly endowed with the necessary attributes including racing stripes, over-sized exhausts, spot lamps etc. so that the rest of us can see or hear you coming...and can get out of the way! :rolleyes:

17th May 2004, 15:00
A litle consistency in speed limits also wouldn't come amiss.

Locall on the A39 there are two sections. The first of these is through a village and has a nasty T junction to a busy side road (with a service station on one corner) and a 50mph limit. A few miles further on there is a section several miles long, with maybe a dozen houses on the whole stretch, admittedly with a couple of side roads but both much quieter than the other, with a 40mph limit.

And guess which area has by far the most pedestrians/kids etc.

(I'm not even going to mention the other local road with a 30 limit, 5 houses in 1 1/2 miles where, in 20 years, I have never seen a pedestrian).

17th May 2004, 16:14

I take on board your point about tests. I agree that they should be different from the initial test however not everyone advances that far after their test. Large numbers I would say actually get worse since they seemingly forget several basic concepts. I have no empirical data for this. I am simply going on experience gained over the last 15+ years (god that makes me feel old). It is therefore unfair to ask everyone to improve following their test. The best that can be expected and asked for is to retain the level required to pass the test.

As for limiters being bypassed, yes there will always be people how want to break the law but the vast majority of road users will not. There are various anti-tamper devices and systems that could be used.



17th May 2004, 16:42
Don't know if a guy down the road gets an extra discount for his OTT security for his SLK.

He has had a metal rod sunk into the pavement, with a loop at the top. He then chains the car from the rear towing bracket to the rod and secures with oversized padlock!:rolleyes:

As I used to be a bailiff, I still possess equipment that would remove the chain very quickly and silently........should I ?:E

Onan the Clumsy
17th May 2004, 18:02
Two sets of roads. Normal roads for everybody and Advanced roads for those with extra (and current) training.

Guess which'd be the dangerous ones.

17th May 2004, 18:58
I agree that there should be a two tier driving test. A standard test that would entitle you to drive a small engined car, say 1500cc or less, and an advanced test that would entitle you to drive larger engined cars. The advanced test should also only be available for persons with at least 5 years driving experience.

It may not make everyone a better driver but it would reduce the danger to other from boy racers in hot hatches.

I also agree with the idea of increasing the speed limit on motorways when the condition are favourable ie. good visibility, dry road surface and light traffic.

As for twin speed limits in built up areas, that is a great idea. At the moment the speed limits are a compromise between safety and speed. The limit in the U.K. could be reduced to 20mph between 0700 and 1900 and increased to 40mph overnight. This would reduce the danger levels during the day when joe public and his little bratts are about town and ease the frustration of drivers sticking to 30mph when there is not a sole on the roads.

Pity no government would have the balls to do it.

(edited due to problems stringing words into sentences after night shift)

17th May 2004, 21:44
Well I've done the IAM advanced test and it's a load of b:mad: s. (I passed, whereas if I'd been doing an L test I would have failed)

Similarly the IAM 'assessors' I met were a bunch of t:mad: s who thought they were excellent drivers but were actually rubbish, and only did it to massage their own egos.

The basic L test is harder than the IAM test.

Standard Noise
18th May 2004, 02:01
Yeah go on then!:ok:

18th May 2004, 03:09
Currently with Tesco, they started off being the cheapest I could find, however enquired with elephant recently and they are 250 notes cheaper !

Would change now, but hanging for a couple of months for another years no claims (touch wood)

250 notes = almost two flying lessons :{

Windy Militant
18th May 2004, 09:05
I agree that there should be a two tier driving test. A standard test that would entitle you to drive a small engined car, say 1500cc or less, and an advanced test that would entitle you to drive larger engined cars. The advanced test should also only be available for persons with at least 5 years driving experience.

The same as they make motorcyclists do already. But then they're a minority and as stated any government who tried to enforce this on the rest of the populace would soon be ousted.

I have heard that the Police Federation are pushing for reducing the penalty for speeding at small increments over the limits to help reduce the rift developing between the public and Police.

20th May 2004, 00:46
I have narrowed it down to a choice of two (I think) and need some advice from anyone who drives these types of cars:

Peugeot 406 Coupe (S / SE 2.0)
Alfa Romeo 147 T-Spark 2.0

The alfa is more pratical and I can get a slighty newer one for the same money as a 3 year old 406 coupe. However, the coupe is stunning and I've heard that it's a great drive.

I haven't test driven either yet, but I'll be doing that this weekend.

In my mind I've already decided on the coupe, however I need to know if anyone's got any bad stories about them

Cheers, Rugz

20th May 2004, 01:17
From personal experience, I have found Peugeot's build quality lacking. The Jerricho household has owned a 106 GTI and a 306 XSI (as well as having had a 307 and a 406 4 door as hire cars) over the past couple of years and no force on this earth would bring me to consider one again. The dashboards on both car came loose very quickly causing a terrible creaking, one of the doors on the 306 became offset, the catalytic converter on the 106 was replaced twice (admittedly under warranty, however still a pain in the ass). Not impressed at all with them.

20th May 2004, 01:20
Check depreciation level on the Alfa, then make sensible decision, apart from that nice car.

Had similar problems last year in what to go for, settled on a Toyota Celica, no regrets at all.

20th May 2004, 04:04
Are these cars displayed at the same dealer?

If they are from different dealers,go test drive one,price it then go to the other and test drive. Whichever you like the best,tell the dealer the other car really got your attention and the cheaper pricetag is a tremendous plus. You may end up with your heart's desire at a much lower price.

20th May 2004, 09:30

Go to www.parkers.co.uk and have a look at the reviews and the owner's comments.



20th May 2004, 09:40
If you've got big feet (like me) you might find problems using the clutch on the Alfa without touching the brake at the same time. That was the one thing that stopped me buying one a few years ago...

20th May 2004, 10:33
Don't bother with a Peugeot unless you can afford the V6 engine - the 2 litre job is a wimpy power plant. In any case, any Peugeot will have quality build problems. On the other hand, Alfa isn't noted for longevity either ( or price retention )
Honda, Toyota, Mazda are the pick of the second hand motors - check out any 'Which' magazine for recommendations.

Wee Weasley Welshman
20th May 2004, 11:13
Buy the Alfa - everyone should have one at least once in their lives.

Continued talk of reliability issues comes from people living in the past. Alfas are as reliable as any other volume car these days, i.e. very. Compared to the likes of Jaguar, Mercedes, and Land Rover they are paragons of virtue. The 147 suffers no particular gremlins, just make sure you find the seat comfortable for long journeys - many don't.

406 Coupe is nice but you Must have the V6.

Are you sure you don't want a 3 series Coupe though? Nicer to drive than either, more expensive to buy but less costly to own (depreciation), better quality and a dealer and next buyer everywhere (not the case with Alfa). Though they are as common as muck.



20th May 2004, 11:40
Comfort must play an important part as I drive 150-200 miles per day.

Thanks for th advice so far, I will definately test drive the 406 coupe and the AF147 and see what they're like.

Much as I would love to have the 406 coupe 3.0 V6, the fuel bill will bankrupt me, so it'll have to be the 2.0 or 2.2 engine with a reasonable 34 mpg.

Wee Weasley Welshman
20th May 2004, 14:25
BMW 320c gives 36 mpg...



9th Jun 2004, 14:45
Any PPRuNers made the foolish mistake, like me, of buying a 1.8 petrol freelander?! Paid £11,995 in october last year and the engine blew up (as they are renowned for.....although no-one told me!) after only 24000 miles!
A new engine was put in under the warranty and then I asked the Landrover Dealer from where the car was purchased how much they would buy it back for..........£7500 I was told!!!:{
I am now Mr Angry and am having many heated debates with the purchasing manager at the dealer...................the nightmare continues!

Feel better for that rant.....thanks for listening!:{

PS......DONT buy a petrol Freelander!!!!!

9th Jun 2004, 15:05
Is there a lemon law in the UK? Although, given that they put a new engine under warranty, I don't think it would apply. YOu will of course get much more selling it privately. Good luck.


9th Jun 2004, 15:27
37.5% depreciation in the first year - thats about par for the course.

Sell it privately - after all its got a brand new engine in now.

9th Jun 2004, 15:48
Unfortunately, there is no 'Lemon Law' in the UK. The USA is well ahead of us on that front.


9th Jun 2004, 15:51
Depreciation can be a nasty thing if you are a new car buyer.

However, for us nearly new / used buyers it's great.

An example: I recently bought an 18 month old Peugeot 406 Coupe which if priced new would be £24k (ouch). It had travelled 33k miles in its brief life, and was on sale for a mere £10.5k ! Bargain for me, nightmare for the bloke who bought it from new no doubt.

So now I have a flash new car with reasonable mileage and 18 months manufacturers warranty for less than half the original price. I am a very happy rugz at the moment :E

9th Jun 2004, 16:00
The problem with buying a new car is that you instantly lose 17.5% of the vehicles value the second your name appears on the log book! There's no VAT on second hand cars, also no delivery charge or registration fee. Buying nearly new or ex-demo's always makes more financial sense.

9th Jun 2004, 16:05
Ahhh, the good old petrol Soccer Mumsmobile. 360, while I do't wish misfortune onto anybody when it comes to vehicles, those things do suck ass. Mrs J was looking at one till we did a bit of research on the web.

Perhaps you could try and sell it to Bournemouth Airports Authority as a new Ops vehicle. They don't seem to have much of a clue about much else and would prolly jump at the chance.

9th Jun 2004, 16:12
I nhave just looked on the web site and they show the price as somewhere over £15k. You did well to get that price . . . pity about the rest though

I am Birddog
11th Nov 2004, 17:12
Biz is outstanding...life is great...time for 'Bling bling'. Except I'm confused

Any thoughts on the two?

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/337000-337999/337615_4.jpg http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/608000-608999/608684_4.jpg

Biggles Flies Undone
11th Nov 2004, 17:15
On the road, the Cayenne wins hands down for performance and handling - especially the Turbo with 400> bhp. The Range Rover is well past its sell by date.

For off-road save £40k and get a Defender.

BUT why not just get a proper car instead of a 4X4?

11th Nov 2004, 17:18
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That's a Birddog reply!!!

11th Nov 2004, 17:20
oh to have such worries :(

11th Nov 2004, 17:33
This might help you.....


I am Birddog
11th Nov 2004, 17:34
Don't think for a second aviation got me to where I am today.

However, I am hoping some of the 747 Captains that have 'never' been married (ahem) could answer my original question...I presently own a Range Rover but wanted to upgrade. I am absolutely in love with the turbo Cayenne...however where I am going to take it...I am not sure it would handle terrain as good as the Range...just looking for anyone with experience on these machines.

As for the Discovery...I find them too small and not enough power to negotiate the terrain I am going to put them through.

Thanks for the laugh Slim20....haha!!!


11th Nov 2004, 17:37
why not get a big 4x4 (http://www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/severe/cxt.asp)

I am Birddog
11th Nov 2004, 17:38

I think you may be onto something here...

11th Nov 2004, 17:41
from a girl's point of view (If you're interested): Their both fugly, but very cool to transport the pram (that's the message it sends out) and all the bags.

If you get a RR: Don't forget your Gold cover from the AA:E

personally if I had to choose: Cayenne, no Question

B Fraser
11th Nov 2004, 17:48
I have a couple of Porkers and the local main dealer lends me a Cayenne when I take one in for a service.

The Cayenne is like riding an elephant with a V2 rocket stuck up it's :bored: rse. Incredible performance combined with superb roadholding. It's almost worth the £90 per hour labour charges :yuk:

Get the Cayenne if you can afford the fuel !

I am Birddog
11th Nov 2004, 17:49
Thank you Sparkle.

Thank you B Fraser

Cayenne-2 RR-0

Biggles Flies Undone-I live in Canada in the places where the winter weather is....ummm...difficult to negotiate. Shovels are too expensive.... A 'proper car' won't make the cut.

11th Nov 2004, 18:47
Birddog, if you're talking bling baby, there's only one choice:


11th Nov 2004, 19:45
Hang on, If you like I'll buy one of each and let you know when I have decided which one I like best. ;)

Now, let me see, Airfix or Revell, that is the question....... :E

simon brown
11th Nov 2004, 20:14

"Continued talk of reliability issues comes from people living in the past. Alfas are as reliable as any other volume car these days, i.e. very. Compared to the likes of Jaguar, Mercedes, and Land Rover they are paragons of virtue. The 147 suffers no particular gremlins, just make sure you find the seat comfortable for long journeys - many don't."

I would suggest the JD power and other surveys would state otherwise.Its more a case of the other marques dropping to Alfas level as opposed to improvements in Alfa Romeos efforts.

Pity as Ive always liked Alfas and there are as many tales of woe as tales of no problems when looking at purchasing these cars.

I nearly bought a 146 but was put off by 2 people at work who had them as company cars and had nothing but trouble along with indifferent dealer networks. I got an A6 in the end and to date have had nothing go wrong in its 50,000 miles...yet.....just waiting for that cam belt to go snap...

Not being a desert rat or having a country estate I dont need a 4x4 but if I did and didnt require serious mountain climbing abilities id go for the pumped up 4x4 Audi or Volvo estate.

Its amazing the amount of 4x4 drivers who talk themselves into a full desert/jungle 4x4 when all they really need is the ability to cross 3" of water on the road that runs by the river that occasionally floods as its "an essential to get to work".It also gives them that feeling of being the outdoorsy rugged active type, when in most cases climbing the kerb to their Barratt box which is the same size as their vehicle, is about as off road as they get. If you genuinely need a 4x4 then fine but 90% of people are just driving a gas guzzling lifestyle statement, and proving to be a pain the the ar$e in the urban environment to boot...having said that its nice in the country being able to see over the hedges so i can kind of see the attraction there..

12th Nov 2004, 21:03
Biggles Flies Undone

The Range Rover is well past its sell by date.

Try owning and driving the latest RR on or off road and I would suggest you might change your mind.

16th Nov 2004, 13:50
I live on a relatively small estate (less than 100 dwellings) in a rural area.

In the early hours of Sunday morning six cars were stolen and a further 9 broken into. My neighbour's car was taken but mine untouched. Us woolybacks are not used to this!

The word is that there is very little evidence of break-ins, you know, broken glass etc. Therefore the theives used key fobs tuned to the individual cars as required.

Is this true? Is it common? Am I better off just fitting a wheel clamp?



16th Nov 2004, 13:52
Have the police been round yet? (It was on Sunday after all.)

16th Nov 2004, 14:05
Is this true? Yes
Is it common? Yes

Had my car stolen a few years ago when I was living in the UK. I was away for the weekend visiting friends, and parked the car outside their house. That night four or five cars were stolen from the immediate area. There was no sign of a break in, no broken glass, just an empty space where I left the car.

The Police came because I lived outside of the area (this is unusual, normally they just issue a crime number - after all what are they going to do, other than look at the same empty space?)

The policeman who came was very helpful (as much as he could be). He was the one who told me the four or five cars had gone missing. He also said they were pretty sure they knew who it was - but unless they actually catch them with a stolen car there is nothing they can do. They see these blokes driving around regularly at three in the morning - and know they are up to no good but their hands are tied.

I caught the train home with all my stuff in bin bags and started saving up for another car.

Am I better off just fitting a wheel clamp? Maybe, or a good steering wheel lock - but if the thieves really want the car the they will more than likely get it anyway. It stinks really - but the best you can do is deter - not prevent. Best advice is to drive something nondescript.

16th Nov 2004, 14:17
So how are they actually doing this then?
started saving up for another car.
Insurance? (You don't mention age of car or anything)

16th Nov 2004, 14:22
There was a thing going on where the thieves could scan a car with a device and then unlock it in the same way the remote locking works. Scary I know, but true.

Personally I don't mind if anyone nicks my motor, as long as they have the decency to crash it and die an agonising death in the burning wreckage. :mad: ers!

16th Nov 2004, 14:23
No help to you i'm afraid, but, a friend of mine picked up his brand new ford saphire cosworth at 0900, drove less than a mile, stopped at the newspaper kiosk and went to get his paper without stopping the engine.Someone jumped in and drove off and the car was never traced or seen again, he reckoned the car was in his ownership for less than twenty minutes!!

five iron
16th Nov 2004, 14:25
Here Here Flytest!

16th Nov 2004, 14:26
Insurance? (You don't mention age of car or anything) At the time, the car was three years old but had done under 15000 miles. I was paid the book price - which is based on a three year old car with average mileage. That was, of course, nothing like the value of the car to me.

Then, you have increased premiums to think about. Even though I lived out of the area that the car was stolen in - my original insurance company wanted triple my old premium.

Of course, shopping around got me a lower price, but the question is always there. "Have you made a claim in the past three years?"

16th Nov 2004, 14:36
After all speed was not involved.

It has been said on other occasions that the radio signal can be recorded and used to mobilise the ignition.

I am told by those that know, that the newer vehicles operate by using 'digital handshake' between the key and the engine management system, which means that it in theory should not be possible to 'break' the code.

OK but how come the AA/RAC can overcome the system??

My FIL car was stolen in remarkably similar circumstances about two months ago. The thieves had clearly targetted the car and during the night they overcame the alarm and de-mobilisation, pushed the car off the drive and down the road before starting it up and driving away. First thing he knew was when he looked out the window later in the morning to find no car!

16th Nov 2004, 16:33
...just an empty space where I left the car. At least nobody had pinched that. It's funny how there's always a parking space when you absolutely don't need one.

I would strongly recommend everyone to consider a Renault to replace their stolen cars. There is one model in particular which is especially theft-proof, provided you don't leave stuff in it. That way, all they see is an empty espace.

I'll get me coat...

tony draper
16th Nov 2004, 16:49
They'll be halfway to Nigeria now.

Bo Nalls
16th Nov 2004, 19:36
Came across these for sale (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14935&item=5730970475&rd=1) on e-bay. Anyone know the score about these or is this just yet another scam?

16th Nov 2004, 19:51
Please explain...........I'm rather thick:\

16th Nov 2004, 19:56
Supposedly indicates an off-duty policeman.
Black rats, again supposedly, the only creature to eat their own young so, again supposedly, policemen won't nick one of their own.

You stick one on your car's rear window.

16th Nov 2004, 20:18
Instead of being prosecuted for speeding you get prosecuted for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice....

Any comments from our legal ppruners.....?

16th Nov 2004, 20:58
Black Rats are not any old copper, they are specialist traffic cops. The nickname is a less than complimentary reference to the fact that they are prone to nick other policemen without fear or favour or any hint of mercy. It is said that they at least refrain from nicking each other.

I wouldn't rely on a little badge to help me, even though I do have one, along with a tiepin. Neither of them used, nor will be.

16th Nov 2004, 21:01
The Black Ratty stickers were printed along with RiDE magazine a little while ago. (or it was BIKE mag).
They are usually displayed by cops and put on or near the licence plate. :D

simon brown
16th Nov 2004, 22:51
Be wary if your flogging a car on somewhere like autotrader where someone claiming to be from abroad has a shipping agent and they have more or less decided thay want the car even by just looking at a photo of the vehicle, and were failrly insistant that yo uprovide and address, etc. What they then want you do is to cash a bankers draught for MORE than you are asking for the car and then when their shipping agent turns up to see the car they havent inspected you pay them the balance back.This is nothing more than a money laundering exercise, where they sell the car on...

The other scam is the same style, but they, again seem far too good to be true in almost buying the car and offering the full asking price before they've seen the car. They turn up with the cash and then dont decide to buy the car.They then come back and steal it. Older Mercs are being stolen big time by gangs of immigrants serving the African/asian taxi market. I got 2 such e mails and having wised up to this told them my car is sold.
They have the same flavour of English /demenour as the old 419 scam "wishing you a happy day you and your beautiful family"

I informed the local police of my suspicions and they confirmed the above is going on and to be vigilant with this style of e mail contact

18th Nov 2004, 11:12
What do you think of todays levels of driving competance? Motorways reveal some of the more exotic techniques but what is happening here? Is it due increased traffic levels? Or are we indeed more competant than ever in the face of complicated/congested road systems?

On motorways in particular, why not introduce inside lane overtaking? This morning I travelled at a steady 70mph on a stretch of the M6 where lane three was nose to tail with cars travelling in the speed range 60mph to about 80mph. Nobody in lane 3 wanted to pull over (in fear of losing that all important slot?) and utilize an otherwise uncongested motorway. There was the odd driver who was happy to be doing 60 ish in lane 2 without giving way! I despatched these by using lane 1 - I undertook! I felt very guilty at first but then I thought "well why not?". What exactly was wrong with that manouvre? In my opinion what was a three lane road was reduced to one lane this morning. I consider my technique safer than that being employed in lane 3 as I was not tailgating anyone and not having to constantly brake/accelerate to maintain a 10' gap!

Can anyone convince me otherwise (apart from the police!)?


18th Nov 2004, 11:24
I seem to remember somewhere in the highway code it saying the undertaking could be performed on one-way roads and on motorways in heavy congestion....

18th Nov 2004, 11:27
As someone who has driven in the UK, Ireland, Fiji, and of course in Oz, UK drivers are in general far better.

It's probably your driver training system, your "car culture", your roads and motorways, and the fact that you have some bloody nice cars over there.

If you come to Oz you'll find that on our motorways, it doesn't matter how much traffic there is, there are cars in every lane, 1 to 4. And in Oz you can "undertake" legally.

Ask Jerricho about the differences about driving in other countries. He'll definitely have an opinion.

18th Nov 2004, 11:38
Some time back when I was working in the US I commented to someone there about it being legal to 'undertake' and was told it wasn't. It was apparently legal to pass on an inside lane but not to ovetake on an inside lane.

The diference was that to passing did not involve a lane change but overtaking did, the theory being, I suppose, that you would have time to see a car approaching in the inside lane in your mirrors as opposed to it suddenly appearing there. The UK rules about it being legal to 'undertake' in congested traffic is, I suppose, part-way towards this.

Go Smoke
18th Nov 2004, 13:21
Check out the link below

That's gotta be expensive (http://www.sxoc.nl/forum/index.php?showtopic=6920)

18th Nov 2004, 13:34
I was hoping the second crane would go in as well. :E

18th Nov 2004, 13:37
Watched a guy tow a nice cadillac away in New Orleans, it had parked alongside a fire hydrant in a narrow little street somewhere downtown. By the time he had got the caddy away he had seriously damaged it and three other cars parked legally but nearby. He didn't seem bothered,didn't even get out to look, just did his job abnd towed the car away!!!

18th Nov 2004, 14:05
I've watched cars being recovered from marinas a number of times. But I've never understood why they insist on putting slings through the windows. Any car lifted out that way would be a write off surely? Why don't they put the blasted slings around an axle or if the car was already in an upright position, 2 slings ander the chassis?

With any luck, the idiot who left the thing parked without the handbrake properly engaged could hope to sell the car off as "one that had gone through the car wash with the windows down"?! :p

simon brown
18th Nov 2004, 19:26
I once saw a Marina pulled out of a Marina

Onan the Clumsy
19th Nov 2004, 03:00
I once saw an Escort getting out of an Escort :p

19th Nov 2004, 05:06
Back to one of the threads merged here.

I follow a radio broadcast technicians' forum. They had a recent discussion of serious 4x4 vehicles that would get you up the unimproved trail to the mountaintop carrying the apparatus you need in almost any weather and then get you home.

I was a bit surprised that the strong favorite (North America, mind you) was the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The civilian Hummer was dismissed as a "soccer-mom" wagon - not agile, too wide, no interior space etc. The flashy SUVs were dismissed as not serious vehicles.

19th Nov 2004, 14:49
I want to buy a used motor and looking around there are quite a few nice cars for not much money but they have mucho miles.

Take this as an example, an Audi A6 avant quattro 2.5 turbo diesel. This is fully loaded and can be had for about £8k and it has full service history. But its done 130,000 miles.

On the one hand I think, well anything thats going to need replacing has been replaced. OTOH, I think yikes thats a lot of miles and it will be expensive if anything goes wrong. Better of with a late 406 estate for the same money.

Anyone got any experience of owning high mileage motors like this? How did it work out for you?

itchy kitchin
19th Nov 2004, 14:50
Sorry, but i'm more interested in high milage women!:E

Standard Noise
19th Nov 2004, 14:55
Had a series 2 landy a few years back, kept falling apart and breaking. Still it had done 176,000 miles.

You should be ok with a german motor though, as long as it's been serviced properly.

Itchy - you can have my mother-in-law if you want, I'm reliably informed she's got more than a few miles on the clock. I'll do the deal for a pork pie and a season ticket for London Irish.:E

19th Nov 2004, 14:56
S'not the miles, it's the styles what count. 130k on a motor like that? More'n likely if it's late-ish a company car, thumped up & down the motorway, so you can expect full service history & most likely weakneses will be consumables like brakes, exhaust, clutch etc.

However, 130k on say a ten yr old Polo sold by sweet old granny is likely to have gone down the shops once a day, often run cold & more likely to have allsorts of probs.

As ever, beware 2nd hand motors, usual checks: HPI, worn seats/pedals/steering wheels, panel alignment, clutch judder, evidence of accidents (paint overspray, bent metal etc) runs straight & true, blue smoke on start up and so on.

Wouldn't buy a peugeot anything if yer paid me mind, no matter how jeune

19th Nov 2004, 14:57
I had a motor with 130K on the clock, I had a starter motor fail but that was the only thing in 12 months ownership. Everything else was fine.

19th Nov 2004, 15:17
130k on a diesel, especially a German one), is just about run in.

Mdm phnuff drives a 1983 2.2 Audi GT Coupe (5 cylinder). Its got 195k and still starts first time, turns in about 32mpg, can easily do 100 (not that I would :D ) and knocks spots off of chav wagons and Chelsea tractors from traffic lights .

High mileage doesn't always mean trouble

Just an other number
19th Nov 2004, 15:24
What's the problem with high mileage?
September 1994 I bought a Mitsubishi Space Wagon.
Now over 205,000 miles (328K K).
No real worries.
The main thing is to keep it serviced properly so check the the service history especially cam chain replacements.

19th Nov 2004, 15:34
130k on a euro diesel is nothing. Watch for blach smoke when accelerating (worn injectors are expensive to replace).
Watch for other bits like wheel bearings, shocks, brakes etc as running gear will 'feel' 130k.

19th Nov 2004, 15:50

I bought a 3-year old VW TDiesel, 145000 on the clock, FSH etc. Just run in, rep's car, done mostly motorway miles. Everything works OK. Personally if you like the Audi and the price is right, get a professional check done (about £130, RAC, AA etc) then if OK buy it, but you might expect some peripherals to go as is expected.

The Invisible Cat
19th Nov 2004, 16:08
Oh one's, oh one's
One thunk that merge button must be red hot by now.

20th Nov 2004, 00:11
Now that I've finally plucked up courage to venture into this corral, maybe one of the resident Pprune tecchies -- or anyone -- can answer a question that plagues me more and more...

As a new resident in a very old town with very narrow streets, I've been wondering: Why will car, taxi and (especially) bus drivers NEVER turn their engines off, however long they're stationary? Apparently, an idling i.c engine produces 80% more nasty emissions than a moving one. Yet that small flick of the wrist seems beyond almost all drivers.

I've tried asking the drivers, and the response varies from aggressive snarls to apathetic shrugs. I would understand if it were a matter of keeping warm, but as often as not, the driver has the windows down, or isn't even in the vehicle at all. But still that engine keeps right on thrumming....

IMHO, there's quite enough unavoidable pollution in the air, without this optional contribution. Or is there a good reason for it...? :uhoh:

20th Nov 2004, 00:15
Is it more prevalent when they are parked outside banks or building societies?


20th Nov 2004, 00:33
If driving diesel, turn off after five minutes. If driving petrol, just turn it off. It's all about polluting and don't take any prisoners.

Onan the Clumsy
20th Nov 2004, 00:37
Probably diesel engines. Supposedly a start is hard on them due to thermal shock. I wonder if it's an old wive's tale though. It is bloody annoying.

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Nov 2004, 07:35
They don't turn off their engines because Ford have shown it to be more expensive.

That's an analysis they did when designing their urban cycle delivery van with rapid restart. Only economical in a limited operating cycle.

Maybe your point is valid for buses, but that would need an expensive scaling up of the Ford solution, plus not sure if big deisels take kindly to being used in that way.

I'm sure a Google will reveal all. "HyTrans" (or summat) I think it's called.

20th Nov 2004, 07:45
My cars handbook says if you are going to stop for more than 3 minutes, you should turn the engine off. This figure will vary but every car will have a point in time where it becomes economically unviable to continue running the engine. Is there a name for this point?

On the other hand, they may be afraid the engine wont start again!

Lon More
20th Nov 2004, 10:41
VW tried this many years ago on the Golf. When stationary for more than about 20 seconds it switched off; pressing the clutch pedal re-started it.

21st Nov 2004, 19:32
OK chaps I know this is a tall order but looking for something as a second car for fun use. I will come to the UK to get one if I can't find one on Island.

Just want something other than a modern eurobox (already got one of them!)

I was thinking TR7, Spitfire or an MGB (had one some time ago but had to sell to buy house

:{ )

Anyone have any better ideas?

The Invisible Cat
21st Nov 2004, 20:05
One thunk the merge button will need servicing soon
'Ow 'bout this one http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152990 then