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View Full Version : Happy 25th anniversary...


Ozzy
4th May 2004, 17:16
The comments on Maggie's legacy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3681973.stm) are very interesting. I do believe she was what Britain really needed at the time. Things started to go downhill when she seemed to have got things in order and then started experimenting with things like the poll tax. Julian Thompson's (http://www.brushfirefilms.com/bff/pages/julian.html) comments are very true, do we still feel that same pride today.When Margaret Thatcher was elected, Britain was the sick man of Europe; long on advice and short on action.

Her predecessors would have responded to the Falklands crisis by squawking in the United Nations, perhaps some sabre-rattling from a safe distance, and humiliating climb-down.

By her insistence on sending a task force to re-possess the Falklands, she restored the people of Britain's faith in themselves, and gained the respect of the rest of the world.

We now know that her action shocked the Soviet Union.

It demonstrated that morale in a key Western country was not nearly so low as they had imagined.

The lesson was sharply reinforced when Margaret Thatcher was returned to office with a large majority soon after the Falklands War.

She turned Britain into a country that counted once more on the international stage. :ok:

Ozzy

The Filth
4th May 2004, 17:21
Ozzy
I do believe she was what Britain really needed at the time.

Ditto.

Things started to go downhill when she seemed to have got things in order and then started experimenting with things like the poll tax.

Dare I say, I thought the poll tax was fair.

con-pilot
4th May 2004, 17:26
Well we still love her in the US, thatís for sure.

What a Lady!:ok:

You want it when?
4th May 2004, 17:26
Poll tax is / was a dam site fairer than the current system or the old rates system.

Zoom
4th May 2004, 18:03
Community Charge (Poll Tax) was much fairer than Council Tax.

Maggie was/is the best thing that has happened politically to Britain in my lifetime so far.

Blair out!

Grandpa
4th May 2004, 18:35
So we still enjoy our National Railways with their low rate of accident, our TGV( fastest train in the world)....instead of counting the deads at every crossing.

Anyway, the deads don't protest anymore....................

Her only merit was to face Argentina Dictature's aggression in Falkland (or could I say "Les Malouines"?)

The Filth
4th May 2004, 18:41
Grandpa
Her only merit was to face Argentina Dictature's aggression in Falkland

Only merit? One presumes you weren't living in the UK in the 70's, or at least not in shit piled, rat infested, union controlled, London.

Ozzy
4th May 2004, 18:43
Did GrandPa say something?:rolleyes:

Ozzy

spork
4th May 2004, 19:16
Well I was "living in the UK in the 70's" and I could say that provoking instant war instead of allowing an easy retreat was foolhardy. Without any reference to the cabinet, personally authorising the torpedoing of the Belgrano, sailing away from las malvinas, outside the UK established zone. But that would probably spoil a good story wouldn't it?

Still, she got re-elected on the "Falklands Factor" so not so daft eh?

Oh, and thousands thrown out of their homes when interest rates rocketed. Still, never mind, that was careless of them to get involved in owning property wasn't it? Who was it now umm... who encouraged it?

Great principles at the beginning, but the power went to her head and dictator is possibly the only polite word that applies to this "lady".

The Filth
4th May 2004, 20:19
Spork
...personally authorising the torpedoing of the Belgrano, sailing away from las malvinas, outside the UK established zone...

Yes, thank Christ Kinnock wasn't at the helm. Took guts to make such a decision I'm sure, and must have had some kind of knock on effect to the rest of their navy.

spork
4th May 2004, 21:52
To my recollection there wasn't much to "the rest of their navy". Even the Belgrano was an ageing, poorly refurbished British cruiser. Thatcher killed 323 souls in a stroke with her personal decision. It was definitely outside the exclusion zone and definitely sailing away from the Falklands. What was the point of the exclusion zone that we were then to defend?

The "knock on effect"? My feeling was that the sinking of HMS Sheffield only a few days later was inevitable after the bloody-minded provocation of that attack, which instantaneously put paid to any ideas of a negotiated settlement.

War is the failure of politicians. It's never to their credit.

Grandpa
4th May 2004, 22:18
May I say war had allready begun, initiated by brutal Argentina miltary dictatorship...............

Another preemptive war, designed to gild this torturer's regime with a nationalist victory.
Once the war is launched, you can't be surprised the blood of innocent young soldiers is flowing, but you can't blame the attacked side for the attacker's losses.

Whatever I think about Margaret Thatcher on other grounds, I leave to her the merit of resisting the aggression (which had the result of Argentina dictatorship demolition without any civilian damage).

The Filth
4th May 2004, 22:26
spork
To my recollection there wasn't much to "the rest of their navy".

I guess mens opinion on size differ. Main units were:
one aircraft carrier - ARA Vienticinco de Mayo ("25th of May")
four patrol submarines
one light fleet carrier
the cruiser - General Belgrano
six destroyers
three frigates (all armed with Exocet)
amphibious warfare craft
eight fleet tankers / transporters
two icebreakers / polar vessels
and of course, over 40 patrol vessels of the Prefectura Naval Argentina, separate from the Navy.

Most of the fleet had sailed by 26th March. It's a historical fact that shortly after the sinking of the Belgrano, the main units of the Argentine Navy returned to port or stayed in coastal waters for the rest of the war.

Even the Belgrano was an ageing, poorly refurbished British cruiser.

She was the former USS Phoenix, built in New Jersey.

Thatcher killed 323 souls in a stroke with her personal decision.

Actually, 368 of her 1,091 crew died. I suggest the blame lays with those dead mens political leaders and not Thatcher. But if you want to blame her, in contrast, you have to ask how many British serviceman did she save?

And contrary to what you stated in an earlier reply - Without any reference to the cabinet - Thatcher had gathered members of her War Cabinet and Chiefs of Staff to discuss the news concerning the Belgrano, brought to her by Admiral Fieldhouse.

It was definitely outside the exclusion zone and definitely sailing away from the Falklands.

And like most ships, had a helm.

War is the failure of politicians.

On that we agree.

Oggin Aviator
5th May 2004, 04:42
The Belgrano and the carrier (with escorting ex Brit T42 destroyers) were planning on conducting a pincer movement on the Brit Carrier Group to the east of the FI. If they had succeeded in knocking out even one of our carriers the FI would not have been retaken.

IMHO .....

The attack on the Belgrano was bold, yes, but undoubtedly saved the lives of more than those it ended, and was a crucial factor in the overall victory. The carrier and all escorts returned to port and remained there, wary of the SSN threat. There could never have been a negotiated settlement, the Islands are British and the Islanders want it to remain that way. Should we have compromised somewhat? I dont think so.

History has proven Maggie correct in the Belgrano affair and there has not been a leader (PM or of either party) of her calibre since (although John Major came close).

Oggin