Cabair a wonderful company to work for?? [Archive]

Honest Fr@nk

1st May 2004, 21:52

Worked for sCabair between 1997-2000. Worst company I have ever worked for and I had worked in many different industries before and after to compare them with. Hopefully they are different now.

Best advice I would give is to slip down to the school that you wanted to work at on a rainy/foggy day and talk to the instructors. Ask them to pull no punches and give their honest opinion.

Only good point is that you will build hours.

Good luck.

Island Hopper

1st May 2004, 22:41

Thanks for that, although I'm more interested in comparing it to other schools than other industries.
It's going to be hard work at any school.

You were there for quite a long time, so surely it can't have been that bad!

IH

Honest Fr@nk

2nd May 2004, 15:22

I was there as one of their "sponsored" instructors for the first 2 years then went part time for a year whilst looking for the first airline job.

I compared them with other industries purely because of the way we were treated not for the fact of it being hard work.

Island Hopper

2nd May 2004, 19:01

Do they treat their sponsored instructors any differently to their other instructors?
For example, are the sponsored instructors kept busier?

IH

Honest Fr@nk

3rd May 2004, 16:17

They were treated all the same really. But you could think that the sponsored guys/girls were tied to a contract whereas a self funded instructor could leave asap. When I was there I knew of a couple of KLMuk sponsored instructors who had enough and left owing grabair money.

Tell me. Are they still sponsoring instructors in cahoots with KLM as well as their own scheme as I havn't really kept an eye on them since I left.

FlyingTom

4th May 2004, 15:32

I worked for Cabair for 2 years and really enjoyed it. Worked with a good set of instructors and got lots of flying hours. Also the students tend to be well-off with good contacts.

The down side was doing 5 days work for 4 days pay but as the money was so low anyway it didn't make much difference! Employment law can't apply to flying schools. I always considered I was getting paid in flight hours, night hours in particular, I considered, were gold dust.

Management are generally amiable.

Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.

Whereas I'm greatful to Cabair for getting my career of the ground as soon as my KLMuk sponsorship ended they did didly-squit to find alternative employment when Ryanair bought Buzz. However this forum forwarned me back in 2000 when I asked a similar question, so that came as no shock. Cabair's only airline partner is FlyBe and quite a few instructors get taken on but they have to be patient.

In summary a good company to start your flying career with, don't stay there too long and don't get jaded.

noblues

9th May 2004, 09:14

Avoid Cabair with a very, very, very long barge pole!

I worked for them in the early 90's at one of their schools as an instructor. Although the local school's can be fun (apart from Elstree) away from the managment and out the way, you will be treated by the management as dirt.

Their slogan was 'you are only as good as your last months hours', you were always under presssure to fly your students no matter the WX, I used to feel very guilty .....

The management Heathcoat and Reid (Theifcoat and Greed) would sack you if you refused to do petty 'sub jobs' like painting parking lines in the car parks on your days off, refusing would normally involve a 'mangement interview' have cigar smoke blown in your face and then told you are being moved to a cabair school 50 miles from where you are living - loveley.

The management run the place like a boot camp.

Theur were some great people within Cabair, but the management is the worst I have EVER worked for, they treat their staff like dirt.

Island Hopper

11th May 2004, 19:13

Thanks for all the replies so far.

It seems there are mixed opinions.

I get the impression that things are much better than they used to be.

I'm still particularly interested in opinions from those who have taught at Cabair as well as other schools.

IH

noblues

11th May 2004, 22:28

Island Hopper -

I have taught at a number of schools .... including Cabair.

Despite my above remarks over Cabairs mangement if you after hours and experience you could do a lot worse. I did about 1000 instructing hours over 2.5 years with them.

A lot depends on the individual schools CFI's personality and how you fit in, at the end of the day the one good thing I would say about Cabair is that they have survived thick and thin when many a school has gone by the way side.

Having worked at a number of other places over the years, nowadays not for hours (I have long since been airlines for 10+ years) but for fun and enjoyment I feel a sense of duty and personal pride to not rip off my students and fly them in all conditions, and do excercises out of sequence just to satisfy a mangemnets desire for revenue. BUT it is a commercial world out there, but I felt Cabair took it 'too far with emphasis on hours' .....

I am very lucky that I now work part time at a place where I make a professional judgment on what my student will gain from flying in the days weather, I would be more likely to be critised at my current school by the CFI for taking people flying in adverse WX ... that just shows how far apart different organisations can be ...

AT the end of the day if you want lots of instructing hours in busy good catchment area flying schools, flying well maintained aircraft (+ve thing about Cabair!) you won't go far wrong with them .....

Good luck!

StudentInDebt

13th May 2004, 11:21

Cabair is a funny old company to work for, some love it, some hate it and some just try to get on with day to day living. The Heathcote days are gone and for the most part when I was there it was a good place to be compared to other flying schools.

I did three years non-sponsored with them and finished with 1700 odd hours, in that time I can honestly say I was never asked to do any menial jobs that weren't in line with my position and I was never pressured by my CFI to go flying in bad weather, there was one ops manager who used to try it on but a simple no usually ended the conversation. They paid me a salary of GBP850 per month regardless of hours flown, weather, holiday, sickness and if I worked reasonably hard I could earn in excess of that. They were one of the few flying schools to employ people in line with employment law. They also gave me a fairly meagre discount on aircraft hire, but friendly based instructors and examiners meant that I never paid much for my FIC renewal, MEP rating or MEP renewals.

All that is history now as are most of the insights above. They now only employ non-sponsored instructors on a paid-as-you-fly basis (GBP25 per revenue hour). The instructors at the schools now seem to be part-time for the most part and seem to undertake a minimal role in the running of the schools.

Mid-level Management is completely incompetent with some equally amateur directors, but for the most part, unless you are at Elstree, you won't encounter them. There was no real emphasis on hours at my school but we all worked as hard when the flying was available, Cabair priced themselves out of the mass PPL market in 2000 and have never recovered the buisiness. Their policy of leasing in aircraft, paying low lease rates and then fleecing owners on maintainance is resulting in an increasingly tatty fleet outside Elstree and now they have a workforce whose sole motivation for going to work is to get the next hour in their logbook.

ccatfanclub

15th May 2004, 11:55

It's A bit of a shame for Cabair I think

I was there for near on 3 years and loved my first 18 months. It really does depend on the staff at the school, We had a great bunch. I'd give the death star(Elstree) a wide birth if I were you, it was oppressive to say the least.

I don't agree with studentindebt over the current instructor’s motives for working there, some of my friends still work there and are well liked, hard working, quality instructors.

As I said, I loved the job, loved the hours and loved getting a half-decent salary(Compared to other schools) for the second best job in the world.

I hear it's all changed though now. Hours are down because they are too expensive and pay as you fly stinks. It's a shame the dustbinman & his other clowns spoilt it all.

At least Uncle Colin was a real aviator!! ;)

Honest Fr@nk

15th May 2004, 13:40

I was one of the unfortunate ones who worked at (h)Elstree under the command of thiefcote and greed. The "ginger binman" was there also with his little "penfold" sidekick (n.a.)who always and probably still has his tongue lodged down the back of his trousers.

Even some of the "personal assistants" thought they were in command. The instructors and the ops staff were all grand. we were all in the same boat-being shafted. But it was a means to an end.

Just as I was leaving they did bring in the minimum wage there, which would have made life more bareable.

If you are thinking of joining scabair, just try and stay away from elstree.

StudentInDebt

15th May 2004, 14:53

Honest Frank

the ginger binman is decidely less ginger these days, thiefcote is living it up on Grand Cayman (ever take a look at how much his "other" company made in consultancy fees), Greed is greedier (judging by his waistline), JH has now been made a director and NA has returned for another round of brown-nosing and "surprise" weekend inspections.

ccatfanclub

Some of the new instructors work a full week and care about the job because they know the value of good customer relations when said customer is being robbed blind. My spies inside tell me that most, however, care only about going flying, which is not surprising given the new salary structure. Of course when the next 10% increase in flying rates comes in the instructors will be blamed again and no doubt penalised in some other way.

November Whiskey

19th May 2004, 12:32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now all the instructors are on flight pay, this is OK as long as you have good weather. I don't think it would be easy to survive the winter without a second job, which of course you are not allowed to have.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this true? I was considering instructing part-time but still want to keep my well paid job...

NW
:ugh:

retro cowboy

19th May 2004, 15:07

November Whiskey if you do go part time can I have your well paid job!

Went for an interview at Cabair the other day, don't recall anything being said about not being able to have another job e.g. barstaff etc

Perhaps they'll tell me once I sign the contract???

November Whiskey

19th May 2004, 15:46

RC

Cheers for the reply...

You can have my current job when I get an airline job...;)

Which Cabair are you looking to instruct from? Did you do your FI rating with them? I have been told that they give preference to Cabair trained FI's...not sure if that is true or just a cunning ploy to get me to part with more cash or not?

I'm negotiating with my current employer to get time off to do the course and then to work part-time so i can instruct as well...hopefully having the best of both worlds!

Cheers!
NW
:ok:

ccatfanclub

19th May 2004, 22:57

:D Yep, They're right, I was definately frowned upon to have a second job. Especially if it was another flying job. It invalidates our insurance was one pearl of wisdom I once recieved.

I'm wondering why this post hasn't gone crazy? Surely there are lots of cabair instructors out there that can contribute.

I'd like the not so ginger dustbinman or his jumped up dragon serectary to contribute too. It's good to hear both sides after all!! ;)

StudentInDebt

19th May 2004, 23:31

Doing your FIC at another FTO is no bar to employment with Cabair, if you did it elsewhere you used to have to do a 5 hour standardisation course. I stand to be corrected on this but my spies tell me that this has now been abolished and only a successful check flight with the CFI replaces it.

Nearly everyone I know who on the new contract has a "full-time" job, there may still be a restriction on flying for other schools/airlines still though.

retro cowboy

20th May 2004, 17:14

True, they did tell me that I have to tell them if I am flying commercially for someone else, but no reference to other work (bar, waiter, escort etc!)

NW Didn't do my FIC at Cabair, interviewing for the Denham position at the moment.

Skyseeker

20th May 2004, 21:32

Hi retro

Do cabair want you to have an IR or IMC for an instructors job? I have a feeling IMC is essential for instructing?? Am I right?? Do they give preference to potential instructors who have an IR ?

Would Cabair allow you to do weekend or part time instructing while training for an IR?

Sorry If Im hijacking this thread, its just seems that all the Cabair people are here!!

Cheers

Skyseeker

retro cowboy

21st May 2004, 10:07

Skyseeker Not sure whether they want an IR or IMC although you have to admit that it would be a very useful complement to your license (just in case!) whilst instructing.

With regards to part-time etc, they were very helpful and said "how many days do you want to work" which was jolly nice of them. Thus it's probably safe to assume you can take the IR while you instruct.

You'd have to speak to one of the management to find out exact details.

Regards,

RC

Skyseeker

21st May 2004, 14:31

Cheers retro - most helpful. Any current cabair instructors out there who did there IR while instructing?

Skyseeker

Fly_146

21st May 2004, 17:24

This thread is very amusing. Not sure who binman is though... initials anyone? Must be after my time at the Kremlin (Cabair HQ).

Was good team morale with all the klmuk instructors. Made the place tick. Sadly those days are over...

whatunion

26th May 2004, 13:15

I remember cabair when it was the london school of flying. i did my cpl gfts there and there was a complete ******** instructor called Brian who was one of the nasiest people i have come across in aviation.

whatunion says, there are some very odd people in the world but why are most of them in aviation?

StudentInDebt

26th May 2004, 15:57

Having an IR is of little interest to them now as you can up sticks and leave at anypoint thanks to the pay scheme now in place. Doing you IR is similarly of little interest to them, although they may ask you if you want to take advantage of their fantastic staff discount scheme (if it still exists) and do it at CCAT. Take this option and you will spend a lot more time and money than you need to as "commercial" students take priority. One advantage of holding an IR is that you may get asked to do some more interesting flying further afield by students who cant afford not to get home (otherwise known as cheeky charters :D).

An IMC is a definate plus for you as you could instruct in more marginal weather. However I would point out that most of the Cabair airfields are some way from the higher bases of the LTMA and have no form of instrument approach. There is also the question of how much your student gains from flying around in 2.5k viz whilst doing straight and level. Additionally the fleet is not what it once was and only a few of the PPL school aircraft have avionics that meet FM immunity standards. :{

The removal of the IF restriction is a good point since once all the KLM sponsored cadets have left pretty much only the CFIs will be able to teach applied IF (IMC rating). This will cost you a fair bit and you should balance that cost against potential revenue @£30ph I believe (limited IMHO).

Flying commercially for someone else does affect their insurance in some way and I would imagine that you would then need your own liability insurance.

P!ggsy

28th May 2004, 13:19

What sort of gross annual salary would be equivalent to the hourly rate (20gbp) at Cabair?

Vortex Thing

21st Jun 2004, 18:35

I've worked for Cabair for a bit now and the truth about how you are treated is a known fact on joining. The senior management are oblivious to anything other than revenue hours flown. The fact that they have a pool of talented, intelligent and able staff does not mean that they are treated as such.

The local management are interested in thier empires being comfy and care neither about their students and even less about their instructors. Instructors are treated like dirt and expected to have no social life, no time off except when there is bad weather and are treated like criminals when they book holidays.

Saying that the pay is okay for the summer, the hours are good in the summer but come the winter you had better have a partner or parent to support you as 10 -15 hours a month is quite normal and it is clear that 200 per month will not even pay the rent on a caravan much less a mortgage. If your lucky you might make 10k if you literally work your ar*e off.

It is quite true to say that your fellow instructors are a good sort but the fact is true that if someone offered you a job flying rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong for 500pcm you would thank them hand over your granny and ring Virgin to book your flight.

So to sum work for them because they may get you in with Flybe which is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick but don't expect to enjoy work just serve your sentence and leave. as soon as you can. The only reason I turn up is because if I didn't I wouldn't get another hour in my log book. Another hour closer to never having to work there ever again. I have worked in another 3 schools and a variety or other professions and they are without doubt singularly the worst employer on the planet.

Hobson's choice, eh.

noblues

22nd Jun 2004, 22:33

Vortex - I was there 10 years ago (and I DID live in a caravan). Yeah, Cabair mangement, well, you said it all !

If its any consilation myself and fellow instructors used to sit having a beer after after a manic 12 hour day instructing looking up at a/c in the london holds thinking, 'I wish !' .... We all thought we would end up working in McDonalds, the airline's were in a deep trough and no one was recruiting ....

Now, 10 years on we are ALL working for major flag carriers, some training capt's, some senior FO's on 747's or 777's etc .....

Rest assured, IT IS WORTH THE BULL**** ! YOU WILL GET THERE !
I guarantee in 10 years time you will be moaning about the crew meals or the company SOP's, or your roster flying shiny jets !

Stick with it !!!! :cool:

jaarrgh

18th Jul 2004, 11:55

Having left Cabair fairly recently after working there for 9 months, I would say you should work for Cabair. Everybody who does moves on to bigger and better things. There are no lifers in the PPL schools.

I've worked at 4 other schools and can honestly say I had the best time by far at Cabair. The new pay-as-you-fly deals give you great flexibility for time off and other work. Or, if you want to work hard you can earn 14 000. Everybody there is in the same position and if you remain positive you can make great contacts and friends.

Work on one of the planets on which they haven't discovered the rebel base!