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OneWorld22
23rd Aug 2001, 21:44
In our increasingly 'PC' era, this is just not the proper question to ask, or the topic that should be given much attention, because of course I will be immediately accused of being a racist and a believer in 'white supremacy.'

But this situation is getting worse by the day and there will come a time when the situation will just boil over and ZanuPF will start ethnically cleansing their country. Look at what happened this week as an example. 21 white farmers were released after a humiliating prison stay in Chinhoyi. They were clearly traumatised beacause as they were released, (their heads had been shaven illegaly), they walked silently towards the waiting family cars, not a word was said, some of them even ran. God knows what was done to them inside....

They had to cross over to a neighbouring province as they are barred from returning to their homes for one month.

Their crime? They came to the help of a colleague who was being attacked by a mob of illegal squatters after the police had ignored them. 6 others were then arrested by the police after they went down to the station to inquire about their colleagues. Of course, no squatters were arrested.

ZanuPF supporters then attacked more whites in the town and 53 homes were ransacked and looted. Mugabe's facists then claimed that the looting had been stage managed by the white farmers!!!! All Jack Straw could say on the matter was, not to turn the matter into an issue of white versus black! He even refused to bar Mugabe form the upcoming Heads of Commenwealth Government Conference in Austraila. Could Australia refuse him entry?

I don't have to remind people that the vast majority of these White farmers have British and Irish ancestry, yet incredibly, no country seems willing to take them in. I believe time is against these people, a former colleague of mine lives in Harare and he is terrified. He had to give up flying in Europe as things are so bad at home. He has stock piled petrol and has worked out an escape plan to the finest detail for when the time comes to flee. No country will accept him and his family!

Mugabe is a lunatic, I think that much is patently clear and I bleieve the time has come to tell him to F**k himself and take these refugees in, we'll see how long the country's economy lasts when the wealth generators leave and indeed we'll see how long Mugabe lasts. His political survival depends on the 'satanic whites.'

If anyone feels like taking a pot shot at me over this, well go right ahead. I deplore racism of any kind and involving any colour, creed or religion. I've been a member of Amnesty for a long time now and have gone to many meetings and rally's. I'm also a member of the Simon Wiesthenthal Centre, still hunting down former Nazi war criminals and I'm not Jewish.

Of course whites commited terrible wrongs against the native balcks throughout Africa, but that is NO excuse for whats happening in this case.

When will it end??

You want it when?
23rd Aug 2001, 21:52
OneWorld - the NFU is taking up their case and lobbying UK Parliament on their behalf. I think you're in the wrong board though so don't be too surprised to get little response, however I could be wrong - I normally am :). I've got a lot of ZA mates and the stories are quite horrific - a lot of IT types are being offered some seriously silly money to go and work out there currently.

Not many takers.

FlyingForFun
23rd Aug 2001, 21:55
OneWorld,

I agree completely with your sentiments, but don't know enough about the situation to be able to comment on the specifics.

Question, though, regarding your activities within Amnesty. If everyone were to disarm, as they'd like, how would we be able to tackle people like Mugabe? My opinion of Amnesty has always been that they are a bunch of well-intentioned idiots with their heads up their backsides, who need to actually take a look at the real world that the rest of us live in and realise that it is not the same idealistic world that they live in. No offence meant to you personally, btw.

Sorry,

FFF
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tony draper
23rd Aug 2001, 22:09
Wondered how those people would fare if they requested, asylum in the UK,I have a horrible feeling that they will be the first ones to have a hard time getting into this country.
It is a bad situation.

OneWorld22
23rd Aug 2001, 22:24
FFF, no offense taken. I'm not 'tree-hugging' nampy pampy leftie. I support Amnesty on issues regarding tackling racism and human rights abuses, especially in countries like China. I would also strongly support their anti-death penalty stance.

I would never encourage or like to see a country like the US engage in large scale de-militarisation. The world will always have Mugabe's and Hussians and only a strong allied force will ever stop them.

Don't worry about me on that regard! I'm an ex US Marine 'grunt'.

Send Clowns
23rd Aug 2001, 23:09
Yes, one of the few times that I respected Peter Tatchell was when he tried to arrest Mugabe. The ****ing Belgian police did nothing to protect him as Mugabe's thugs beat him to the ground.

Rhodesia and now Zimbabwe was never a black vs white problem. This whole thing is damaging the black farm workers more than the whites. Some have been badly injured, even killed I believe. Few if any can escape to Western Europe, where many whites could but would lose everything, and abandon their duty to their (black) workers (what the liberals fail to realise is that many true, conservative Englishmen (which many of these are, or are descended from) will be reluctant to abandon their duty or responsibility). They treat their workers like an extended family in Southern Africa, because that is how it was always done (I exclude Afrikaaners here).


I have a colleague who is Rhodesian/Zimbabwean (white) lucky to have UK passport, left the country he loved in anticipation, for the benefit of his young daughters. Coincidentally I met a black Zimbabwean last year. His opinion of Mugabe and the land grab was exactly the same as my white Zimbabwean friend's, and those expressed here. He also feels fortunate to have UK residency and working rights.

Mac the Knife
24th Aug 2001, 01:10
Send Clowns - you "..exclude Afrikaners here".

I take the liberty of apologising for the small number of Afrikaner farmers who treat their workers badly. I think that you should apologise to all the rest for this untrue, sweeping and profoundly racist remark.

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Mac the Knife ]

Hooking Fell
24th Aug 2001, 09:42
Wouldn't it be nice (and worth a Peace Nobel Prize) if one of the participants in the African Aviation forum simply dropped something nice onto Robert F*****ng Mugabe's residence - preferably quite soon, please!

gravity victim
24th Aug 2001, 14:13
It has been rightly pointed out that our Government has happily got troops running all over Macedonia and (still) Sierra Leone, countries where we have no interest or citizens, yet in Zimbabwe, where 50,000 white farmers are in peril, many with British passports, they seem to have nothing at all to say. The standard FO excuse for inaction is trotted out; "our getting involved will make things worse." How does this square with our very deep involvement in other places?

And how ironic that Tony and co are all so full of their active arms collecting role in the darkest Balkans, while brushing aside the pressing need for a bit of arms collecting very much closer to home! :mad: :mad:

Charlie Foxtrot India
24th Aug 2001, 17:15
Without the farmers and their workers, where is the food going to come from?

How long I wonder before we are shown horrific stories on the news about people starving in Africa, but in Zimbabwe this time.

I wonder how the British government would react if this situation occurred in Australia.

Send Clowns
25th Aug 2001, 02:26
Mac

I'm afraid I can't include Afrikaaners in that statement. It was a generalisation, and in general Afrikaaners did not match that behaviour. In general they supported the party that lead South Africa for forty years completely failing in its duty to and responsibility towards those that had less political and economic power than they. I was not specifically talking about farmers, but about a tradition of responsibility and duty to which the Afrikaaners in general did not hold.

I am not being racist against Afrikaaners : that suggests I take the generalised character assumed in a group, and apply it to individuals. I am making a statement I believe I can justify about the majority of a group, stating that a certain character cannot be said to be generally held among a cultural (not even racial - they are racially varied and mixed) group.

I fully accept that you, if you are of that heritage, may have behaved perfectly properly. If so I have two points : you must agree that most of your fellows were not responsible. You must see the irony in pulling me up for 'racism' against Afrikaaners.

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]

Hogwash
25th Aug 2001, 03:14
I am an ethnic minority, an Anglo-African!

Unless one was born and bred in Africa, or has lived there for MANY years you cannot understand what really ails the continent as a whole.

I do not doupt that the White man holds a certain resposibility for past wrongs done to the African, however he has not come close to misstreating the African as much as the indigenous goverments have and are doing.

In most African countries whom ever is in power, and this is normally a function of tribalism, rapes the country and fill their pockets. I cannot think of a poor African goverment where the President does not have his own aircraft, and the ministers do not drive around in Mercs or Range Rovers. The guys on the street can hardly feed their families!

What is happening in Zim has happened before in other parts of Africa, Idi kicked out the Asians, and farms were force bought in Kenya after independence. This does not benefit any country and their economies collapse, in fact it is hard to think of a succesful African goverment post independence.

Until these countries stamp out corruption and graft they will never improve, and in the meantime the majority of the population starve! My heart goes out to these people; the average African is generally a decent person with an inborn set of values, kindness and friendship being paramount.

Rollingthunder
25th Aug 2001, 04:18
To perhaps answer a couple of questions...
They will have a food shortfall this year, estimated at around 600,000 tons of grain. Where will it come from? Probably from here and the neighbour to the south if it does go at all. I'm not in favour of it going unless Mugabe and his henchmen are gone.That should be the condition of donation. Further, if they were still in power most of it would get siphoned off anyway.
Why aren't the troops going in? Likely because Mugabe is the leader of a Commonwealth country, one seriously messed up commonwealth country. :mad:

[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: Rollingthunder ]

RadioFlyer
25th Aug 2001, 10:30
OneWorld, no potshots here -- I've been following events in Zimbabwe for some time now and am increasingly horrified at what is being allowed to happen not only by Mugabe but by the international community. By our silence and inaction we indicate an agreement with these crimes, and I find it absolutely sickening.

I wonder if this issue will be discussed at the upcoming UN Conference on Racism in Durban? I know that the problem calls for action rather than another long-winded discussion amongst diplomats, but it would be a start at least to get them to admit that the problem exists rather than keep pretending that if they ignore it long enough it will go away!

Carpet Rodent
25th Aug 2001, 17:37
Hogwash has it in one!

Zimbabwe is headed down the same road as just about every other one in Africa. One-Party States & Long-lived Military governments have been the order of the day. Now mugabe & his thugs are simply resorting to "scorched earth". They don't give a damn about the country itself or anyone else in it.

mugabe should've been kicked out of office 10 years ago. Zim might've stood a chance of recovery. Instead it's now joining the same league as Ethiopia, Somalia, Angola et al. Not the sort of achievement anyone would want to boast about. (Oddly mugabe does, which proves he's a few bottles short of a full crate!)

This is now the only country I know of where the Police Farce will arrest & imprison the victim rather than the perp. Mainly because they lack 2 distinct pieces of anatomy when it comes to letting the law to follow its proper course.

The only minister who had any integrity was Nkosana Moyo, who resigned out of sheer frustration at not being allowed to do his job properly.

It's tragic that it's been allowed to slide the way it has. As for the "land reform", it's now become a case of dish it out to the party faithful and the armed thugs who have so far trashed most of the farms they've invaded, indicating they have absolutely no intention of using them productively. Starvation & disease will be the order of the day.

A once great country is now no more. Sickening really, and all because of Mugabe's insatiable greed for power. The day he dies, I'll crack open a bottle of J.C Le Roux and down it in celebration. If he takes a few of his cronies with him, what a pleasure. :D

To the farmers, workers & their families. God be with you.

The Guvnor
25th Aug 2001, 17:59
If the recent SADC summit is anything to go by - coupled with the frantic back-pedalling and appeasement by Commonwealth heads of State and especially the Australian government I seriously doubt that one word about Zim will be uttered at the UN conference.

Follow this link to see what the Sowetan's view on the SADC conference was: Zapiro (http://www.mg.co.za/mg/zapiro/2001/aug/aug14.gif).

Even more worrying is the increasing tendency of Thabo Mbeki to blame all of the ANC's problems on the whites and the previous government - this of course was the way that the problems started in Zimbabwe.

Regrettably, as Hogwash said, the main problem lies much closer to home - the overwhelming majority of African nations are not democracies - they are *kleptocracies* where the elite bleed the country dry and the ordinary person earns about as much a year as you probably have in your pocket right now.

When British troops went into Sierra Leone, apparently they were greeted with open arms because the locals thought that they were going to be recolonised by the British!

Makes you think, doesn't it!

TowerDog
25th Aug 2001, 19:20
Does any of the posters on this thread know my old room-mate and collegue Richard Bawden?
Born and raised in Zimbabwe.
If so, please e-mail me at [email protected]
Thanks.

Charlie Foxtrot India
25th Aug 2001, 20:50
Have just been out on the pi$$ with some ex-pat Zim "when-we" friends. So Mugabe said he would destroy the country before he gave up power. He can see his power slipping away and so sure enough he is destroying the country, and doesn't give a hoot what is left behind. They are very upset about it all.

The Guvnor
25th Aug 2001, 22:20
Tower Dog - you might like to try this website: Rhodesians Worldwide (http://www.rhodesia.com/) - it's remarkably effective in tracking down Rhodies/Zimbos!!

TowerDog
26th Aug 2001, 06:45
Thanks Guvernor.
Will dig into the site ya linked me up with.

(Now too sauced up to do anything but type while not moving my lips..)

Did enjoy meeting with ya and downing many beers here in Ft. Lauderdale last month.

Lets do it again. (Mini PPRuNe Bash on the beach)

Mac the Knife
26th Aug 2001, 12:52
Have a look at the Commercial Farmers Union http://www.samara.co.zw/cfu/farmininbul.htm
for the latest news on farm invasions.

The CFU have always been extremely conciliatory towards Uncle Bob - much good, sadly, it has done them.

Velvet
26th Aug 2001, 20:24
When Mugabe has finally destroyed all the farms and his people are suffering from poverty, tyranny and famine, will the west then be expected to pick up the tab and send enormous amounts of aid to ensure they don't starve.

Can anyone doubt if the situation were reversed and he was a white dictator presiding over white tyranny of blacks that our 'Ethical Foreign Office' would be screaming 'bloody blue murder' and our Government threatening all sorts of reprisals.

The old saying comes to mind 'Evil abounds when Good Men Do Nothing'.

Doesn't matter what excuse our Government use, they are standing by and letting it happen. Barely a peep of protest, not much censure and not much sympathy shown for the plight of the farmers.

The Guvnor
26th Aug 2001, 22:22
It's not just the plight of the farmers, Velv ... it's the farm workers (most of whom have been evicted by the so-called "war vets") and indeed the entire country that will be in the grip not just of famine but also have absolutely no forex to pay for any imports.

On top of that, it looks as if Mugabe has no intention of holding any - let alone free and fair - elections. I have heard from reliable sources that he has a large team of Libyans in town that are specialists in interrogation (read torture) and destability. Apparently, he's going to go all out hardline racist (as did Idi Amin) and evict all the whites and declare himself President for Life.

Like Saddam Hussein, Mugabe has made sure that he has destroyed any possibility of effective opposition. The military is slavishly loyan to him, and he has made sure that his tribe - the Shona - have a total grip over all strategic areas meaning that even if he was deposed the country would still be run, defacto, by ZANU-PF.

There's no doubt that he's a serious destabilising influence in Southern Africa - the biggest problem is that he's too hot a potato for anyone to handle. A 'Sierra Leone' solution many well be the only option.

As always in Africa, it's the ordinary people that suffer the most.

Winston Smith
26th Aug 2001, 23:36
OneWorld22,

[...] of course I will be immediately accused of being a racist and a believer in 'white supremacy.'

Don't worry, you are just plain stupid.

Mugabe's facists [...]

Yeah, I'm sure Benito would have been proud. Like Mussolini, Mugabe is making his country work effectively.

All Jack Straw could say on the matter was, not to turn the matter into an issue of white versus black! He even refused to bar Mugabe from the upcoming Heads of Commenwealth Government Conference in Australia.

Why should he? Mugabe is just completing the job he had been sent for.

And then, I can't really blame Mugabe for his actions, wrongly called "racism" by some of you (which it isn't of course, since only Whites can be guilty of this sin). He would be a fool to tolerate people in his country who were so stupid to hand it over to him in the first place.

I deplore racism of any kind and involving any colour, creed or religion.

Sadly for you, Black politicians don't.

I've been a member of Amnesty for a long time now and have gone to many meetings and rally's.

So what do you complain about? I can't remember these ai idiots ever raising their voice for anyone except Commies and ordinary criminals. Real political prisoners in Europe are none of their concern. - And oh, nice hobby of yours, "hunting down" people.

When will it end??

Probably not before someone rids us of people like you.


The Guvnor:

A 'Sierra Leone' solution may well be the only option.

What have you been smoking? Your government would rather send its troops against itself than cause any inconvenience for its allies who are just a bit over-performing.


As for concerns voiced by some of you about Rhodesian Whites not being granted asylum: It's only fair that they aren't admitted to Europe since they won't enrich our culture as much most of the usual immigrants. But in case they miraculously succeed, let's hope they've at least learned a few things they should have known in the late seventies.

Davaar
27th Aug 2001, 02:15
Of course we'll send millions in aid, Velvet, but better than that, we'll import a few hundred thousand "war veterans" so that we can better "celebrate our diversity".

HugMonster
27th Aug 2001, 04:04
Winston, do you have any idea at all?

Racism can most certainly be committed by anyone. And Mugabe is no exception. His politics, if you didn't know, are considered left-wing. His tactics are right-wing. Mussolini didn't even manage to make the trains run on time - that's a myth. Furthermore, Mugabe isn't making ANYTHING in the country work - he's breaking it all up.

So get yourself an education, find out the facts, and then come back and argue coherently instead of merely attacking 1World22 for a well-considered post.

Drop and Stop
27th Aug 2001, 05:29
From the Natal Witness (za).


Operation Give Up and Leave
---------------------------------------------

Britain's Telegraph newspaper said on Sunday that it has obtained a secret document outlining plans by President Robert Mugabe to expel all white farmers from Zimbabwe before elections due next year.

Entitled "Operation Give Up and Leave", it reads: "The operation should be thoroughly planned so that farmers are systematically harassed and mentally tortured and their farms destabilised until they give in and give up," the paper said.

The document, from Mugabe's Zanu-PF party, was reportedly circulated to self-styled war veterans in July, just before the recent round of invasions in Chinoyi, Doma and Hwedza in which many farmers were evicted and farms brought to a standstill by the forced removal of their workers.

Farmers who resist, the report quoted it as saying, should face the "Pamire-silencing method", a reference to Chris Pamire, a businessman and former Zanu-PF supporter who fell out with Mugabe and was killed in a mysterious road accident.

Referring to the opposition Movement for Democratic Change, the document reportedly states: "The opposition should be systematically infiltrated with highly-paid people to destabilise and cause divisions and infighting."

War veterans are promised "big rewards if the opposition and white farmers are brought to their knees". It assures them there will be "no going back on farm seizures".

Whites have now been told they must renounce their right to a British passport this year if they wish to retain Zimbabwean citizenship. This has left many of the estimated 40 000 British nationals in Zimbabwe in a dilemma.

Last week Agriculture Minister Joseph Made said white-owned farms listed for resettlement must be vacated by Friday. More than 90% of the country's 4 600 white farms are listed and the Commercial Farmers' Union has warned that the disruption will cause food shortages.

Mugabe has cited the refusal of former British prime minister Harold Wilson to use troops against white minority rule for his refusal to stop illegal land invasions.

Mugabe told the Nigerian newspaper the Guardian, published yesterday, that in refusing to stop the illegal land invasions he is doing no more than Wilson who, in 1965, ruled out using troops against a Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) from Britain.

"We met Harold Wilson in October 1965. We asked him what he was going to do about UDI. He said if that happens the economy would collapse and there would be an oil embargo Why would Britain not send troops? He said, 'Oh, the British public would not stand for it' They didn't want their people killed," Mugabe told the paper in an interview earlier this month but only published in full yesterday.

"If I send my own army to drive out the veterans, I will be killing my people. I won't do it," he said.

He said he is confident that other African countries will support him, while some European countries oppose Britain's position. "France, Italy and some Scandinavian countries really don't share the British opinion."

In a related development, British Sports Minister Richard Caborn urged the England and Wales Cricket Board to reconsider its tour of Zimbabwe after the BBC was banned from the event.

Zimbabwe Information Minister Jonathan Moyo announced that the BBC's accreditation has been suspended until further notice.

Zimbabwe is unhappy at the BBC's coverage of the violence against white farmers and has expelled its correspondents.

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One bullet would solve the problem.

Charlie Foxtrot India
27th Aug 2001, 17:33
Winston, if you want to know what's really going on ask a former resident of Zimbabwe. Ask about the atrocities Mugabe has committed since the war.

Remember Idi Amin? Well, it's happenning again. Another power hungry nutter making a mess of Africa.

Times like this you need another Thatcher, she may have been a cow in a lot of ways but I doubt she'd have stood back and let it go this far.

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Charlie Foxtrot India ]

Swamp Rat
27th Aug 2001, 17:36
Winston Smith

That has to be a wind up, or you have your head as far up your @rse as Bob Mugarbage does, D!ckhead :mad:

You splitter
27th Aug 2001, 18:10
A few years ago I spend time travelling around Zim. The best holiday of my life. I fell in love with both the country and it's people. I made some good friendships with both black and white folk.

To see what is happening to this country now is heart breaking. Hogwash got it right. This is another case of sour political leadership abusing the system and exploiting the everyday people for their own greed.

It would be nice to see Tony develop some balls and go in and sort this out. But isn't that just boardering on returning to imperialisum? Do we really have any right to get involved? We can't say "here's your country, enjoy independance, and oh... by the way if we think you are fu**ing it up we will come back and sort things out".

Again if we employ sanctions the only people who will suffer would be the very ones we should be helping. Mugabwe and his boys will still keep their nice cars, aircraft, suits and banquets. No skin off their nose.

Bit of a tricky one really. What do we do? Any suggestions?

The Guvnor
27th Aug 2001, 19:00
Winston Smith - how on earth can you say, in all (apparent) sincerity, "Like Mussolini, Mugabe is making his country work effectively."?

How can you possibly describe "making his country work effectively" as the highest levels of unemployment, inflation, starvation, disease, illiteracy, debt; and the lowest levels of foreign exchange reserves, food stocks, exports and inward investment in Zimbabwe's history? Even Ian Smith's government - under sanctions - maintained decent living standards for all ... black and white.

Mugabe is a psychotic meglomaniac kleptocrat that is determined to hang onto power at all costs in order to keep raping his country. If Zimbabwe is to be saved, he (and his evil henchmen) need to be got rid of, as quickly as possible - by whatever means necessary.

There's currently a Commonwealth meeting on in Abuja, Nigeria where a number of African nations are discussing the situation there. Now that Thabo Mbeki finally accepts that 'quiet diplomacy' has failed (as it would, since Mugabe completely ignores anything less subtle than an AK47) hopefully South Africa will do something to restore much needed stability in the region.

I've lived in Africa for most of my life, and have taken a keen interest in it and its problems. Zimbabwe can be restored, but it needs action - not words.

Davaar
27th Aug 2001, 19:17
As I read Winston, he was being ironic.

The Guvnor
27th Aug 2001, 20:02
Davaar ... hopefully!

Winston Smith
5th Sep 2001, 01:43
HugMonster,

yes, I really don't "have any idea at all" what's "left-wing" about Mugabe's lunacy (and most of you know my opinion of "leftism" is not exactly a favourable one), much less what's "right-wing" (essentially meaning conservative) about his tactics.

I'm a bit disappointed that I actually have to explain to you (I thought you knew me by now) the two occasions where I have been ironic: Of course I don't consider Mugabe to be "making his country work effectively", and neither do I think it "fair" to deny White Africans the option of settling in Europe, the US, or Oz.


Charlie Foxtrot India,

so what do you think Margaret Thatcher would have done?


Swamp Rat,

cool down. While my post was not a wind-up at all, I was being cynical, of course.


The Guvnor,

needless to say (at least so I thought), my comparison between Mussolini and Mugabe was an ironical one, provoked by OneWorld22's labelling Mugabe's so-called "war-veterans" (most of them in their teens and twenties) "fascists", a funny word often indiscriminately employed by leftists and the P.C. crowd to designate anything that makes them feel uneasy.

What sort of "stability" is it you expect South Africa to restore in the region, taking into consideration that it is doomed by the same fate as Zimbabwe?

The only reason Mugabe wasn't given thumbs up to put a complete stop to "White Oppression" back in the early eighties is that it would not have been good PR for the scheduled wrecking of South Africa.

OneWorld22
5th Sep 2001, 02:40
Winston Smith, what exactly is your problem with labelling them fascists?

Find a definition in a dictionary then think again,

One who adheres to a program for setting up a centralised autocratic nationalistic regime with severly nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce and finance, rigid censorship and forcible suppression of opposition.

You've said some really peculiar things things here, I suppose only you have the intellectual capacity to know the real truth here and anyone else who discusses this subject is completetly out of their depth, grow up man, for f**ks sake.

But then again I suppose you'll use the old defensive line that people always use when they've come out with a load of complete *****, "I was being ironic.." Oh, I see.

Whats wrong with bringing war criminals to justice, harbouring a few are you?

Paterbrat
5th Sep 2001, 19:24
Winston Smith hmmm got a ring to it and I didn't think you were being ironic, possibly just a satisfied 'vetran'.

The conference in Durban was interesting in it's resounding silence about the situation in Zimbabwe, however natural enough when it is a known fact that only whites and Jews can be racist?
The present British Government, another Labour government incidently, is now sitting back and doing precisely nothing about Zimbabwe. Punishment for UDI under a previous Labour government perhaps?
The fact remains that a minority race in Zimbabwe is being vigorously persecuted and harrased and various governments who have in the past thundered on about human rights are now completely silent???
The facts which are indisputable are that the country is being driven to certain starvation in a seeming scorched earth policy designed to drive whites out and punish those farmworkers who were associated with them. The aid money that will inevitably come when the country is on it's knees and starving will of course be appropriated by those in power in the Government and sent into various bulging bank accounts round the world.
Bob Mugabe is already an extremely rich man along with all his top aides and generals who own numerous farms and various of the countries resources along with their external accounts and assets abroad.
His present good friend and ally Ghadaffi is there supporting him and ready with a safe haven, either there or North Korea when the country finaly collapses and even his own supporters realise that he has raped the country of anything of value and nothing is left to steal or destroy.
I too was somewhat bemused by Peter Tatchel who I have never really had much time for, but he apparantly has been only one man with enough balls to actually stand up to Mugabe and say something, and look what happened to him. It's just as well he was in Europe when it happened otherwise he would have had a very sticky and painful end.
Yes it's a very PC world out there but people should realise that racism never has been an exclusive preserve of the white man.
Louis Farrakhan's visit to UK was described by various members of the public as only him airing his views and not racist at all. Funny one that.
Yes Zimbabwe will go on dissolving like a lot of the rest of Africa, yet why should we be surprised, it happened in Britain when Rome decided to pull the Legions out, it descended into the dark ages and much of what we later acknowledge had been great benefits were lost in chaos and darkness.
Reparations for slavery was the big feature of the Durban conference , how far back should we go, and why have large segments of the world who had just as much to do with slavery been conveniently been left out of the demands for money. Appologies have been demanded; for the development of roads railways infrastructure technology development schools medicine and progress??? Appologise for exploring charting and developing? Yes there were inequities and wrongs together with that, somehow I think that that is part of the human condition and that has happened to every country that was ever taken by another and God know that has happened throughout history.
Millions of people in the Western countries gave their lives for the abolishion of slavery and slavery is a world wide condition practised by every single civilisation since the world began so why single out particular countries for appologies and money.
Beggers have a habit of marking out those they know will give and if they cease to give can generaly be intimidated into giving more by some aggressive bowl rattling.They will however ignore those who simply ignore them and who never give anything An observation I think that can be easily verified.
I cannot help but think that we are seeing a very big bowl being rattled and sadly it does appear that the worst elements in society are being confronted by a total inability of the conference to say anything that wasn't disagreed with by large segments of the world while they patantly failed to spot anything going on just a few miles away just over the border. What a load of cant and hypocrisy.

Winston Smith
5th Sep 2001, 21:22
OneWorld22,

let me say it again and even more clearly: Only in two sentences I have really been ironic, and I pointed these out in my reply to HugMonster (I'm surprised there could have been any misunderstanding at all). The rest of my (first) post was cynical (as opposed to ironic) and sarcastic. That is because (while I am at least as much appalled about what's going on in Southern Africa as you are) I wonder what people expect if they put someone like Mugabe into power. State-sponsored terrorism, nepotism, and looting and wrecking of the economy has been SOP for almost any "independent" government in Africa south of the Sahara (which, as I tried to make clear, is not exactly what Mussolini did to Italy, his regime being the prototype of fascism). Even more bewildering I find it how anyone could expect the British government, who betrayed White Rhodesians, to do anything about it.

Finally, I don't understand what this topic has to do with "bringing war criminals to justice".


Paterbrat,

very good and insightful post! I cannot but agree. However, I'm completely in the dark as to why you suspect me to be a "satisfied 'vetran'", whatever that is.

The Guvnor
5th Sep 2001, 22:11
Strange thing, that Anti-Slavery conference. It didn't mention that slavery is in fact alive and well - and predominantly living in Africa! :D :rolleyes: :D

Mac the Knife
6th Sep 2001, 01:14
Let us suppose hypothetically that a new continent, for argument's sake almost identical to Africa in the 1700s is discovered tomorrow.

In the light of what we have learned since then, and with our PC conciences cocked and ready, how do you think the matter should be approached?

Should we declare it an World ethnological museum/conservatory/preserve, erect an Iron Curtain around it and leave it strictly alone?

Or what?

Keep reading http://www.samara.co.zw/cfu/farmininbul.htm
for the latest news on farm invasions.

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Mac the Knife ]

Paterbrat
6th Sep 2001, 12:04
My appologies WS, my dyslexia was peeping out, should have been an 'ironic', war-veteran which it appears you are not.
I did rattle on a bit but stand by all of it, a truly truly sad situation. The Rhodesians were only to ready to help Britain in the Boer War, two World Wars and in Malaya. They gave unstintingly of their young men and had always belived in the 'mother country' When they felt that the debacle of the Belgian Congo was being ignored and they were being rushed into a majority rule that the country was not yet ready for, they declared UDI.
They managed, despite international santions to run a viable and vibrant economy with no handouts or international aid. They fed them selves, supported themselves, and kept standards of law and order that are conspicuously absent today.
There exists archival footage of a young Robert Mugabe in London outside 10 Downing street declaring " We are ready to govern ourselves". Years later with all the help from around the world which he has enjoyed and massive injections of aid, he is still patheticaly demonstating how unready, how unfit he is to lead, and sadly, how devestated the country has become under his 'enlightened' leadership.
The worst fears of the people of that time have come to pass. The ravages of the North Korean 5th brigade through the south of the country was worse than anything done during the war. As for the so called 'war veterans' none of whom is old enough to have been one they are nothing but a paid mob of looters and despoilers carrying out Mugabes wishes, ferried around by his orders, protected by the 'police' and the law courts which have been taken over by Mugabe.
It is a shell of a country that has been brutaly looted by their glorious leader. He is a corrupt and vicious individual who exibits classic symtoms of meglamania that so sadly have become so familiar all over Africa in the past. Idi Amin, Bokassa, Megistu, he is in familiar company.
God help Zimbabwe God help Zimbabweans both black and white, because with him at the helm no one else will, the world will stand by and watch. The black countries will say nothing for he is one of their own, the Western ones will say nothing for to do so is racist, the others, they neither care nor are they concerned.
Look what happened in Rwanda Barundi. Nothing was done, for to have interfered was to have to have imposed a white solution? Yes, there have been Black Governments who have stepped forward at various times. ECOMOG in Liberia and the present 'peace keepers' from Zimbabwe Uganda and the Interhamwe rebels all 'helping in the Congo. Helping themselves to mineral resources more like.
No, I am sad to say that everyone will simply stand by and silently watch what is happening in Zimbabwe and do precisely nothing.

The Guvnor
7th Sep 2001, 00:30
Are you aware that Mengistu was given asylum in Zimbabwe when his 'Red Terror' was overthrown? Interesting the sort of company that Mugabe keeps...

Mac the Knife
9th Sep 2001, 14:37
I know that this is all very sad, but spare a thought for all Zimbabweans.
Extract from the latest CFU destruction bulletin http://www.samara.co.zw/cfu/farmininbul.htm

"Zvishavane (district) - Farms are now totally pegged and settled, even unlisted properties. Farm guards are looking after vacated premises and infrastructure. Poaching and snaring is no longer a problem as everything has been killed and the meat sold. Rampant burning and tree cutting has occurred to prepare for ploughing. Stock theft is now rampant in the communal areas. Gold panning is out of control causing massive river bank destruction."

"ploughing" - with what? No tractors, no draught animals, no tack. Women with sticks?

And forget all that silly talk about intervention - there is nothing that anyone, even perhaps Bob himself, can do to stop it now. Damage to agriculture is now so severe that it would take many years to repair.

Its like watching an aircraft crash in real-time slow-motion - more casualties though.

Speedbird59
9th Sep 2001, 18:59
I grew up in the UK but I have lived in Africa for the past 5 years so I am not surprised in the least that little will be done by the UK/Europe about Mugabe and the region in general. I arrived in Africa like most Poms do expecting to find lots of racist white people persecuting the poor Africans. It didn't take long to I woke up to the reality of the situation.

I think the problem with Africa is that anyone who hasn't lived here for an extended period of time cannot comment as they simply see the world wearing the PC glasses they have worn in the UK or Europe.

Lets face it most of Africa is in complete meltdown. Why? Because there is not one single African Government which knows how to run an economy, provide healthcare, education, or allow the rule of law with a justice system which works. Democracy is an alien conecpt to them.

I find it repulsive that Britain, Holland, and other former colonial powers are being asked to pay reparations and apologise for the past. Should we apologise for bringing roads, railways, healthcare and basic sanitation to Africa? I think not.

I also find it repugnant that the view of Africa taken by the majority of my own age group in the UK. They seem to think that if we write off third world debt that would solve all the problems. Unfortunately when I look at the records of most African governments like Mugabe's they would use that money to buy more arms (normally to use against their political oponents) and more Mercedes Benzs (which most African politicians are fond of driving).

If we are to write off third world debt at least let us insist on democracy being implimented and some basic normal economic principles being followed, alas this will never happen as the spineless politicians in all parties try to placate the PC lobby who will always be offended by any acknowledgment that the European way of government is a superior one.

Before I am branded a racist I'd like to point out that I'm far from that. I have simply lived in Africa for some time now and can appreciate the complexities of what go on on this continent.

tony draper
9th Sep 2001, 19:56
Well said Mr S, I watched a short debate on the lunacy of reparations for slavery this morning, the one voice of sanity was a Asian gentleman that said more or less what you just have, much to the discomfort of the two luvies running the show.
Just as well he was Asian, I think a white man would have been howled down, what the hell is the matter with us?,what are we afraid of,? where do all these political correct luvie scum get their power from.
Personelly I've been fed up with apologists for our history for years,this little Island and the people it spawned created the modern world.
Britain changed the world more in two hundred years than it had changed in the previous two hundred thousand.

OneWorld22
9th Sep 2001, 22:12
That's a very good point speedbird, if the African nations want the former colonial powers to pay reperations, the colonial powers should ask for money for the infrastructure that they built. Airports, rail, roads, power stations etc.

I too am fed up of governments in Europe being s**t scared of crticising the African countries. Africa is corupt to it's very core, anyone who's been there, or even read a paper knows that. Cancelling debt repayments will solve nothing, it will just line their pockets even further. Ever notice how all the best hotels in Europe always have a hefty sprinkling of African officials and hangers on?

Any money given to Africa should be handled by an independant World body that should work in tandem with that African governments finace ministry so every penny can be accounted for. This certainly is not racist talk as remember, it's the ordinary African civilian who suffers in all this.

mark_mitchell
9th Sep 2001, 23:12
now im not raciest,
when a white person racially attacks a black person there is hell to pay but if the same is done to a white person by a black person no one gives a dam. this can be seen i harmless shows like the fresh prince with will smith where they say stuff like " iam not getting married to no white person", now i dont realy care but if a white person said this their like wouldnt be worth living.

Winston Smith
9th Sep 2001, 23:31
To be perfectly honest, I usually do not eat salad. But before I am branded a flavourist I'd like to point out that I'm far from that. I have simply eaten salad for some time now and can appreciate the diversity of weeds a salad is composed of. After all, some of my best friends are vegetables, and I even count spinach among my favourite dishes. Furthermore, I sometimes do drink water, and since salad is mostly water anyway, no one can accuse me of discriminating against it. This is also not nutrinionist talk because it's the ordinary salad that doesn't get eaten.

Paterbrat
13th Sep 2001, 05:41
Winston Smith, exactly what weed might you be smoking? Or is this more 'irony'?

Cardinal Puff
25th Jul 2002, 14:03
...And thus it came to pass.

Prooners must be psychic to figure all that out....