Civair

[despatch]

Any up to date news if civair is still going to start commencing flights to the uk and europe destinations..................

[Goldfish Jack]

Yes

As soon as ZSMUM is serviceable flights will commence to the UK.

No date is set for the return flights - they are looking for someone in the UK to do the c checks there before the a/c will be able to return.

Apparantly they are also struggling with crew accom at (for night stops) Langebaan, Kleinzee, Alex Bay, Luderitz, Walvis Bay. Once they have sorted those out, they will announce the date....

[gate5]

Heard today that civair have had the audacity to launch a web-site today selling tickets to the public for an airline that does not exist!!!!- all he has is the licence- nothing more- nothing less!! All I can say is PASOP!! Penny wise- pound foolish!

[PIA747]

ZS-MUM?? this was not with SAA. Where did this bird come from?

[planecrazi]

I remember ZS-MUM being an old KingAir 90 flown by Des someone, to Sua Pan, Botswana in the early nineties from Lanseria.

[CaneRat]

Geezuz, all those stop overs???? Sounds like 80 days to london and back.

Ya, you can buy your ride on the net already. Someone needs the next installement for his BMW.

:8

[Goldfish Jack]

Latest press release:

FLIGHTS
Fly low-cost to London
Staff reporter
Posted Wed, 12 May 2004


Civair Airways, the new low-cost international airline which will begin flights from Cape Town and Durban direct to London later this year, has launched its website, www.civair.com, and is now open for bookings.

Civair's thrice-weekly Cape Town to London service will begin on October 30, while the Durban-London service launches on December 3, 2004. The Durban route will make Civair the only airline flying directly from Durban to London, since other carriers ceased flying direct to Durban in 1997. All Civair flights will land at London's Stansted airport, which is roughly 40-minutes by train from London's Liverpool Street station.

The web-centered airline offers one-way 'seat only' economy fares from R1999 to R3999, all year round. Minimum and maximum peak season fares will be reflected on the website and in all Civair's advertising, so as to ensure price credibility at all times. While the cheapest tickets are available online, for those not wishing to make use of the online service a Civair Call Centre is available on 0860 248 247.

Being a budget airline, the basic price of a ticket excludes luxuries such as meals, drinks and in-flight entertainment, although these are available as optional extras. If you value your creature comforts, the fully-inclusive business class fares range between R7999 and R9999. With business class fares for the London-Cape Town on other carriers in the region of R20 000, Civair could offer significant savings on business travel to the UK.

According to Andy Cluver, Civair's CEO, South Africa is currently seen as an expensive long-haul destination, in terms of flights, from the UK.

"Many of the 400 000 South African expats living in London simply cannot afford to return home as often as they would like. With the advent of Civair, such people will now be able to visit both Cape Town and Durban as affordable, short break destinations.

"Flying Civair will by and large be exactly the same as flying any other carrier. You will be offered everything that other airlines offer, and the legroom is the same, if not better.

"Healthy, not wealthy" flying
"There is one huge difference however, and that is that you don't have to pay for other passengers' special needs or indulgences. Entertainment services are an expensive luxury, and the heavy meals and alcoholic beverages offered by most airlines are, as we know, not ideal for healthy long haul travel. Many passengers today prefer lighter meals, herb teas and fruit juices. We aim to promote healthy, not wealthy, flying!"

Following the messy collapse of airlines like SunAir and MaidenAir, which left many passengers and travel agents out of pocket, Civair has arranged with the South African Air Services Council that all monies paid to the airline will be kept in a Passenger Protection Trust Account held by a firm of Cape Town-based auditors, and only released to Civair after the flight departs.

The airline will use a 446-seater Boeing 747.

Book online at www.civair.com or via the Civair call centre on 0860 248 247

[planecrazi]

Durban- Stansted-B747 ????
Surely this is a mistake or did Durban gain a further thousand extra feet somewhere. How is this possible?:confused:

[Goldfish Jack]

NO it has not gained a few thousand feet.

Anything is possible with Microsoft FLite simulator and a dream

[bladestrap]

What a joke! Considering this man's "chequered" history, anyone with brains should realize that all is not well.

Its easy to sell tickets to gullable people, and promise them the world. Its also easy to say that the money will go into a trust account, only to be released once the flight departs.

Mmmm, its also easy to borrow money and cross collateralize funds should a "clean bill of health" be issued by an auditing firm.

So what's the plan here? To pull the public's money, put it in a trust account, raise funds to rent the airplane based on the funds in the trust account, and voila! You have an airline.:yuk:

[CaneRat]

Cape Town Waterfront business men.

After a year long rawl with van der merwe and his Huey, Elvis now has bought his own one????? Plane crazy HUH????:confused:

Now, CluVa from the wooden hut has put together an airline...(remember, he has got f:mad: all but maybe a Nigerian partner and a pipe dream)


Wait till Hollywood hears about this lot......:8

[Shandy]

Hey Guys,

Don't knock AC too much. At the moment, our industry is in a complete slum and there are lot of us who are unemployed. If AC is starting an airline and there are a dozen more piloting jobs available in SA - great! My CV's in .....

S.

[clipboard]

Point taken Shandy!

AC is starting an airline with leased 747's, so he says. He's leasing those aircraft insured, maintained and crewed, so he says! So you know what's gonna happen to your CV? If its not already in file 13, it'll be there soon. Chat to a few people around Cape Town, including some cabin crew, and hear what they have to say.........about the promises.......salaries........mmmmmm. You be the judge!

[Shandy]

Clipboard,

Sorry, but I didn't know about the crews coming with the planes. I sent in my Cv and got a reply saying I'll be contacted in the near future for interview arrangements. Thanks, my bubble has been officially bursted!

What are all the other unemployed pilots in SA doing? I am seriously running out of ideas!

[bladestrap]

Learn to fly helicopters my man:D :ok:

[lonkmu]

Guys,

Civair has a website up and running and they are taking bookings (and I assume money) for the London/Cape Town/Durban route.
Some of my SA mates over here in London are considering booking and paying as they are being lured by the cheap fares on offer.

I have told them to wait and see where this goes before giving any credit card details.

What are your thoughts?

[Pistol Pete]

Lonkmu.... you gave them good advice.

Check your PM.

Cheers

Pete

[CaneRat]

Hi all,

I have just had a look at the Civair web site. I then got a little curious and tried to book a flight.

I chose my date and desternation (London), then my retutrn date. Only to have the site reply: NO FLIGHT ON THIS DAY! I then chose another day, again..NO FLIGHT ON THIS DAY!

By now i was thoroughly amused and kept working at it...and again...NO FLIGHT ON.......

I think that they are going to have a great big head pain trying to find enough people to build a flight......

Think i will stick to SAA....

[EDDNHopper]

Apparently you CAN book 30 Oct STN-CPT and back on the 31st (at least the website took me to "Step 4" in the booking process).

Now this has written CAUTION all over it! :suspect: 747 Durban-Stansted non-stop? Impossible!

[PIA747]

The Civair booking engine has been powered by Perform Air, which also powers a few other airline websites, one of them being S.A airlink. This has to add some credibility to the project.

[EDDNHopper]

PIA,

the booking engine of SA Airlink is "powered by Datalex" (it is, in fact, the online booking engine of SAA). It has, to my humble knowing, nothing to do with Perform Air.

Moreover, a booking engine, its developers, and its providers do not add to the credibility of their customers. You paint the house of your neighbour and get paid for that - which says nothing about the credibility of your neighbour... ;)

[Gasoline]

Foreign crew??
You need a plane before you can get crew! Just ask Stansted airport, they know nothing about civair flying out of their airport.
PS: Beware of booking tickets online, apart from the obvious reservations we all have, the site isn't even secure ie. neither is your info, credit card details etc...
By the way, the black empowerment group has decided that a stop over in Zimbabwe will solve the problem of the Durban to Stanstead route.

[Deanw]

So Zimbabwe has enough fuel?

Assuming Civair has to refuel, do the pax have to deplane and if so, how many pax are willing to do THAT in Zim? :hmm:

[Gasoline]

Why do you think there is such a fuel shortage? - RM has been storing fuel for Civair for the last 5 years, and at the rate the airways is getting off the ground, he'll be storing it for another 5.

From what I hear the europeans are "dying" to be offloaded in ZIM.

[lonkmu]

Have there been any developments with Civair?

Are they due to start flying in October or whenever soon?

I believe they are still taking bookings.

[4HolerPoler]

I read somewhere this week (news report) that they had been granted both their SA & UK licences to operate & it was all go. Anyone see that report? If so please paste it in.

4HP

[Pistol Pete]

Mercillessly cribbed from AirlineCrew forums. Not much new in here.

South African start-up operator Civair Airways is intending to begin low-fare long-haul services to the UK from three major cities by the end of this year.
It plans to start flights between Cape Town and London Stansted from 31 October, serving the route three times per week using a Boeing 747-300.
The carrier will follow this with a twice-weekly service between Durban and London Stansted - with a probable stopover in Johannesburg - from 1 December. It plans to use a Boeing 767-300ER on this route.
Sources for the aircraft have yet to be finalised, says the airline.
Civair is emerging from a small South African domestic general aviation and helicopter operation active since 1989 and is being backed financially by an unidentified organisation linked with South Africa's black economic empowerment efforts.
Black economic empowerment is a strategy implemented by the South African Government to ensure that the country's majority black population has a greater share of the ownership, management and control of key financial resources.
It has not disclosed the quantity of investment being put into the new long-haul airline.
A spokesman for Civair Airways says that the airline is "fairly confident" that it can make a low-fare long-haul operation work, stating that it has carried out "intensive" cost analysis on the proposed routes.
He says that it hopes to follow the basic no-frills strategy of EasyJet and Ryanair, adding: "Passengers will only have a ticket and a seat - everything else they will have to pay for [on board]."
The company is headed by managing director Andy Cluver.
Civair says that it has obtained an air services licence to operate the Stansted route from the country's transportation department and plans to open its Internet-based reservations system towards the end of April. The spokesman adds that, if the airline is successful, it will expand its operation to serve Greece and Spain next year.
Flag-carrier South African Airways and Nationwide Airlines are the only South African airlines presently operating services to London.

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
Credit to Mystere IV A for posting it.

[CaneRat]

If this airline of Mr Cluver's is backed financially by an unidentified organisation linked with South Africa's black economic empowerment efforts, does this mean that he will have affirmitive crew???

"Passengers will only have a ticket and a seat - everything else they will have to pay for (on board)." Can it be that he also supports the Small Business Development Programme ???

When i sum all this up, it reminds me of the Mtatu Madness up in Kenya :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, i wish them all the luck and happy flying.

Cheers

[Majutes]

Good to read that all is well and nothing has changed in CT. If you want a job and aren't scared of a challenge go fly contracts. It's not quite as challengeing as trying to get a job on that 747 but it can be alot of fun....

[Pistol Pete]

Does anyone have any more news on Civiair. Do they have aircraft or anything concrete yet?

[scotland1976]

the aircraft is a 747-200 ex European Airlines and before that BA, reg G-BDXJ.

I hear he has all the slots confirmed, financials in place and will be go at end of oct.

[Goldfish Jack]

I wonder if Gimbal has applied for the chief pilot post yet.

Then we can see how well he is going to do here................

[Goldfish Jack]

See they have appointed a station manager at FACT - quite a lot of experience he has had at Sunair old and new, Pheonix and one or two other airlines, incl Comair and SAA.

They have also joined the AOC, so things must be happening.......

Not that this means much.

See British Airways are going to 12 flights a week from Oct (all with a B747-4000) and Virgin will be returning with 4 flights a week(A340-300s) increasing to 6 over Xmas - with a 600 - dont know what the dear old national airline is going to do whether they are going to increase their flights. But wonder if Civair will be able to compete with these extra flights.

Also a question for the noise abatement boffins - is a B747-200 not subj to noise penalties at Stanstead??

[PIA747]

G-BDXJ is currently owned by European. Are they going to operate for Civair?

[Kennel Keeper]

Frantic new hangar building going on at CT International near the gate for Civair. Seems to be a big hangar but not sure how you going to taxi a 747 to there?

[unablereqnavperf]

Does Bull**** Bengies have anything to do with this outfit?

It been a few years since he's started an airline!

[Sandiron]

From Flight International:

The start-up of Civair, South Africa's first long-haul no-frills airline, may be delayed as the company is still negotiating the lease of a Boeing 747-200, writes Hilka Birns.

Civar has been advertising a start-up on 30 October between Cape Town and London Stansted, but group chief executive Andy Cluver says operations may be postponed until 3 December to give the company time to find a suitable aircraft. The carrier is evaluating a choice of 17-year-old 747-200s - all former British Airways or Virgin Atlantic Airways aircraft - from four European aircraft sources, but declined to name the potential lessors. Civair plans a 420-seat, 32in (81cm)-pitch economy class and a 22- to 25-seat business class.

The lease is to be concluded within the next month, but Civair eventually plans to buy its own aircraft. Buying is "seriously advantageous", given the rand's gain aainst the US dollar, says Cluver, adding that in a soft-currency market the lower ownership costs offset the high fuel-burn and direct operating costs associated with older aircraft.

Civair has been licensed by South Africa's department of transport and has been awarded "designated carrier" status on the South Africa-UK route. It has been awarded five slots a week at Stansted , but initially will operate only three. One flight a week will stop over at Durban before continuing to Cape Town.

Another South African new-entrant, Nationwide Airlines, began flying between Johannesburg and London Gatwick in November 2003 using an ex-Air Canada Boing 767-300ER with an all-economy configuration, but offering full in-flight services. "Our flights are operating on 70-80% load factors and some flights over December are already fully booked," says Nationwide Chief Executive Vernon Bricknell.

[Teignmouth]

The Civair website is still advertising the first flight on 30 October and taking bookings for dates prior to 3 December, so I guess AC hasn't told everyone of his changed plans yet.

[Leftpedal]

Civair sub-chartered a helicopter from a Durban based company last year, AC paying for the 4 hour charter with his credit card, and insisting upon using his own driver. After flying for 2.2 hours the aircraft made a forced landing on the beach and was subsequently written off (Nobody hurt - I believe the CAA ruling was fuel starvation). Within 48 hours of the accident, AC was telephoning the owner of the aircraft asking for a refund for the 1.8 hours that he had paid for and hadn't been flown. As I recall, the owner agreed to return the payment when Civair returned the helicopter.......

Anyway, if the Durban - London leg involves a stopover in Zim, will UK passport holders have to pay the $55 entry visa? Could bump the costs up a bit.

[RSQ]

Spoke to the owner last week, got an airplane, got the route, complying with all the Pom's crud at the mooment. The stop overs on the eraly post were hogwash - who ever heard of a jet liner landing in kleinzee ???
With regard to ZS-MUM it was an early B90 owned by Civair, but ran into engine problems after an engine overhaul. The aircraft is as of this date still standing in a hangar on the north side of Lanseria.
CIVAIR is taking bookings and selling tickets, but all the money is held in an attorneys trust account till the flight departs - seems pretty safe way of doing to me, maybe in the light of SAA's losses and financial situation - they should do it as well ???

[George Tower]

The stop overs on the eraly post were hogwash - who ever heard of a jet liner landing in kleinzee ???

Someone left their sense of humour in bed this morning I see:p

[clipboard]

:D RSQ, Where do you come from with your two posts my man? You obviously do not understand the humor as posted earlier on this thread regarding ZS-MUM & "ol Andy's way of bragging to the world about his airline.:p The boys were just taking the mickey out of SIF Air.

"Ol Andy is a bit of a talker, and he does'nt always walk the talk my man! There's a lot of people out there that are very sceptical about "Ol Andy" actuallyy pulling this thing off. You wanna know why? Coz he's let down so many people in the past my man!

First it was October, now its December. He did'nt say which year though!:D :ok:

Just heard that Civair's one and only helicopter pilot just resigned. "Personal reasons" being given for the step.:p

[Gasoline]

So AC thinks ..Buying (an aircraft) is "seriously advantageous"..
Perhaps having funding would be "seriously advantageous"

Has anyone actually checked the fare prices? Seems you can get better prices on other airlines, with all the frills.
Maybe AC will make some profit out of offloading passengers onto other airlines.

[Pistol Pete]

So have the dates been set back for the service to start? I know people who have paid for tickets already and are wondering if they made the right choice. Is it still 50/50 or should they contact the credit card or travel insurance company?

[WOD-DET-DVR]

Does anyone know what is happening with Civair. Heard they had to delay their start but should be up and running from Cape Town to London in December. Would be interested to know what aircraft they are going to be using.

[Gasoline]

So today was the day when Mr C was going to be dragged over the coals re his airline licence - anyone know if he still has it after today?

[Pistol Pete]

Hi all

Is there a delay? Can anyone say when the first flight will be?

Thanks

Pete

[Sandiron]

A newspaper reported a few weeks ago that the first flight had been delayed to 3 December.

At that time, AC seemed to be unable to decide whether to lease an aircraft or buy one for cash.

A day or so ago, AC was quoted as saying that the latest fuel price increase was "very serious", so perhaps that will be cause for a further delay?

It's odd that the Civair website is not being used to keep the public informed. Go into it and you can book, and pay for, a ticket, but there are no announcements about aircraft, start-dates, etc.

[clipboard]

:confused: "Ol Andy" is for sure a pipe dreamer. His helicopter company is battling severely, and there is little chance that he will ever get this airline going. When pushed in a corner, you will see how many excuses he will come up with.

Rest in Peace Civair Airways!:ok:

[carnivoruslegallus]

Heard that "Ol Clueless Cluver" still does'nt have an airplane, no money to get one or to start with, and may only be able to start sometime in the near future if his proposed deal with a BE Partner goes ahead.

I heard that he appeared before the Air Service Licensing Council this last week, and there are many things that he needs to put in place before he can ever dream of starting.

Rumour has it that its dead before its even started, and that it aint going nowhere!:{

[Sky Goose]

Some freinds are booken on Cviair for beginnig of November, yes they have not got their AOC but Civair has booked them on BA flight to Cape Town on the same dates instead.

This does not seem like the actions of an airline not serious about it future.

[clipboard]

Why am I not surprised!:D

In order to save face with the people that have booked and paid online, Ol Andy is sending them to Cape Town on BA. What a joke.

This lad's not serious, for sure!

Aye yay yay Andy, what have you got yourself into?:O

[Goldfish Jack]

Saw a telex today that said their first flight to/from Cape Town is now the 5th December.

Telex originqated from ACSA so things must be happening................................................... ........... but it did say that Civair had informed them that "their first flight would be on the 05December...."

It seems the first flight is continually being postponed...........

[Pistol Pete]

Hi all

Someone who booked tickets on Civair emailed them and actually got a response. The gist is that the first flight is definitely going ahead on the 4th of December and that they had two 747-200's leased and everything is OK.

They said other airlines and people were trying to 'always trying to discredit a new company'.

It would be great to know what is really going on.

Pete

[Teignmouth]

Civair is its own worst enemy. No-one else needs to "try to discredit" it: it's doing a fine job itself.

You only need to visit the Civair website to see what I mean.

No informaiton, no announcements, no attempt to keep the public informed.

The FAQs section has never contained a single word other than "come back sometime later".

BTW, the website also tells you Civair has a fleet consisting of a single B747, but will offer flights from Stansted to Durban, and Durban to Stansted, both departing on a Saturday!

Still no sign of a UK contact number.

That's the sort of rubbish which discredits Civair, not other airlines.

If AC had any sense at all, the one thing he would have ensured was perfect was the website: in this day and age, that's what creates credibility (rightly or wrongly).

My guess is, flights will start as announced. But that's about all.

Remember Avia?

[Goldfish Jack]

Got nothing to do so let me play on the internet and guess what I found:

Some very impressive information on the Civair sight. If I had nothing to do with aviation I would have been very impressed - fancy hangar area ( looks very much like Aviation Business Centre to me) and even has a super (backwards) picture of a LearJet - looks very much like ZSPNP to me!!

It also says that they already ops a Boeing B747.

mmmmmmmmm

If I was booking a seat I would be very impressed but do they operate an aircraft already and a schedule already. This deceptive advertising is not right and should not be allowed.

Oh and as for their hot special of R499 one way to Standstead on the 5th December............. what you got to be joking

[Cue Ball]

Goldfish Jack

The answer to your question which you posed in the thread is yes . The reason being is that S.A law regards advertising as an invitation to do business and nothing more. So basically they(any comapany who advertises) are inviting you 'into the shop' so to speak in order that you may begin a negotiation process about whatever it is that you wish to purchase. I have seen items for sale in shop windows with a advertised price only to be told once I have entered that the price is now different, and almost always more expensive. You may be asking yourself how I know this, well I have a law degree and although I am not practising your question falls into the realm of private law, specifically law of contarct which was a major sublect for me. As far as I know the constitution, to which all our laws must comply, has not changed this situation. Hope this helps you out.

CB

[clipboard]

Latest news is that ol Andy is running around Johburg with a black dude (his empowerment partner) trying to raise US$300K in a guarantee to secure the lease on the 747. To date, rumour has it that he has not yet been helped.

My two cents worth???? It ain't gonna happen.:{

Can you imagine someone trying to start an airline on a borrowed US$300K? If it's indeed true, then ol Andy has really lost it.:p

[graeme66]

I hope no-one minds me joining in on this, but I'm in need of some help. My friends and I are travelling from Cairo to Cape Town overland, and are in the process of booking a flight back to London.

I lived in CT and was around when CivAir started advertising, so I've been telling my mates to book a flight back with them for February. It sounds from this thread that this is a bad idea - although not so bad if they get a seat on BA if CivAir let them down! I assume there's no chance of this happening in February if CivAir aren't up and running?

I hope someone can help! A £200 flight is much more appealing than £500-odd!

Thanks all

[EDDNHopper]

You find a 200 quid - flight that might never happen appealing? You might as well lose 200 and then have to pay an extra 500 to get a new ticket. The risk is yours...

[graeme66]

Well not really. I've got a half price voucher on Virgin, so it's my friends'! I was just hoping that someone here might be 'in-the-know' and be able to nudge us the right way. What I mean is, I hope they say it's ok! The feeling I got from this thread is that the facts make it seem 50/50, but the gossip makes it more like 10/90. As it stands, it doesn't seem safe to book with them.

[Teignmouth]

If you book and pay with a credit card, your funds are probably safe if the flight never takes place (maybe talk to your CC company first). However, you might need to have a Plan B, just in case.

[PIA747]

European Aircharter (E7/Bournemouth) will put one of its B747-200s back into service in early December to operate three weekly flights from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on behalf of Civair (Cape Town).

[graeme66]

Really? That's excellent! Well, I think we'll hold fire for a couple of weeks until we know for sure that they are actually flying, then we'll book.

Thanks for your time and help, everyone!

[Pistol Pete]

What is going to be used for the DBN route? I thought it was too short for a B742.

[Teignmouth]

According to Civair, Durban will be an intermediate stop en route to/from Cape Town, so they're planning to use the same aircraft.

As far as I can gather, ICAO/Boeing regs stipulate that a B742 needs a minimum 8000 ft for landing in normal weather conditions i.e. dry, no/small tailwind component, etc.

DIA is 2440m.

Even I can do the maths!

[catalogue2]

PIA747 said:

"European Aircharter (E7/Bournemouth) will put one of its B747-200s back into service in early December to operate three weekly flights from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on behalf of Civair (Cape Town)."

I recall a time when Virgin (?) wanted to operate additional flights "on behalf of" a local licensed carrier and was blocked from doing so by the SACAA (probably following howls of protest from SAA!).

There is/was some or other requirement that said an SA-licensed air carrier could not merely wet-lease a foreign-owned/operated aircraft: it needed to provide locally-employed crews, etc.

Or is Civair merely dry-leasing the aircraft from European Aircharter?

Has Civar been trying to recruit flight/cabin crews in SA?

[Sandiron]

It's now less than 2 weeks before Civair is supposed to start operations, albeit it having delayed by a couple of months.

Anyone heard anything? The website doesn't have any information.

[Sandiron]

From The Star, Johannesburg

Letter to UK paper sparks fears of SA airline crash
November 24, 2004

By Jonathan Ancer

A disgruntled passenger's rant to a British newspaper has sparked concern that a South African airline is a fly-by-night operation.

The launch of no-frills airline Civair has been delayed from October 30 to December 5 after red tape prevented it from registering its aircraft.

Now some passengers believe they could be stranded, after reading a letter in the London Sunday Times by Kate Thompson urging people to "beware when booking with a brand-new South African airline".

Rene and Christopher Hobbis bought budget tickets over the Internet six months ago to come to South Africa for a family wedding next month.

After they read the warning, the couple have been scrambling to get another flight to arrive on time.

Rene Hobbis' brother, Lawrence de Villiers, said yesterday that when his sister and brother-in-law read the letter they thought their Cape Town trip was off and their money lost.


De Villiers said he was suspicious because he had been left stranded when a local airline went insolvent two years ago.

The Hobbises' flight is scheduled to take off on December 11 - and Andy Cluver, Civair's CEO, said there was no reason to panic.

"The flight will take off. We've had teething problems but we'll be ready to fly as planned on December 5. About 300 passengers had booked for November and all received refunds or were rebooked on other airlines," he said.

Thompson complained that her refund had taken two weeks to come through.

"Not only was I refused compensation for the fact that flights with alternative airlines had rocketed in price, the refund was £80 (about R900) short, due to a merchant's commission."

Cluver said the commission was a bank charge and was part of an agreement with passengers.

[email protected]

[Bravedave]

Check out these few titbits and ask yourself if you would pay any money to fly with this crowd.'

The "airline" has been promising to fly for tooo long now with start up dates as early as 2003 - have a google and see for yourself. Audrey D' Angelo (Independent Newspapers) - you have been "cut and pasting" press releases for far too long without thinking or researching what is happening? - have you visited CEO of Civair at his headquaters lately and viewed his spanking new red and white 747? " 'We are on track' - Civair CEO Mr Andy Cluver"

The owner of the "airline" drives a new 330 csi Bmw convertible, he has his office in a 3 room wooden shack (rent free) in the "non scheduled area" no pun intended, at Cape Town Int. Uncompleted hangar stands as an eyesore to all who enter, building contractor unpaid!

Civair has a judgement against them by Lanseria Airport for the non paymant of rent, some R60 000. Not a lot if you are leasing (or trying to lease) 747's. Denel are owed some R300,000 in outstanding lease fees for Allouette helicopters.

The King Air 90 owned by Civair has been attached by the bank.

Staff - all 10 of them - are often paid late.

Are there any guarantees that money paid into the "passenger protection trust fund" is done so - the web site has no such security - disgrutled ex staff members hint that money does not go directly to such trust. - no help from you c card company once the money has gone.

If, as quoted by "Sandiron", Cluver claimed 300 people booked in November - do the maths at 3 flights a weeks - 24 possible 747 flights - total 300 seats booked ...mmm no wonder they had "CAA and other regulatory problems'

It is now the 24th Nov and there are no real signs within the aviation community in Cape Town - and for that matter, the world - that these guys will fly come 5 December, as (badly) advertised. BEWARE - Gary, Mark Skratcher and others you might have some company in Pollsmoor for the winter - do keep each other warm ****

Language amended 4HP

[Pistol Pete]

taken from saflyermag.co.za:

The identities of the two Boeing 747s for Civair Airways are also known and are as follows:

ZS-PJH B747-267 c/n 22872 ex G-CCMA

ZS-PJI B747-267 c/n 23048 ex G-CCMB

Both originally served with Cathay Pacific and later Virgin before going to European Aviation Air Charter.

[Gunship]

Sjees oke's why is everyone so negative ?

Give Andy a break and rather wisg him well .. I am sure most of you also had the feeling of a credit card in the red and a cheque that bounces ... not nice.

I wish you well Andy and may God Bless your airline with millions of pax.

No I am finished with Tassie's ... :E

[Elwood Senese]

Anyone have anything to add? There are a lot of cricket supporters in the UK getting very worried...

Also can someone confirm minimum required runway length for a 742?

Thanks

[onthecase]

Firstly i am a forensic investigator not a pilot. But have the misfortune to hold tickets with this shower.
They have today cancelled flights 4/12-18/12 which include mine. They have asked if we want to have a refund we must adhere to a silly list of detiails. Including sending all your banking details on an e-mail. They claim the taxes are not refundable.

Right so maybe some people won't want a refund!!They have the necessary details and could reverse the payments. Have they handed over the taxes, I am contacting the goverments to find out what i already know.
In brief this shower are going under and any flights in the future are oin the slow burner to cancellation.

If any pilot types can explain any technical lies such as licences not got and runways that planes would fall off, let us know. I am compiling a file for credit and gov agencies.

Anyway as nothing is showing at £1k and mainly £1.3k, anyone with a spare plane could mop with us cricket types!!!!!

[Pistol Pete]

Courtesy of IOL.co.za

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_...01914673C284667

About 500 passengers booked to fly on low-cost Civair Airways between South Africa and England for Christmas, face high costs trying to get other flights at short notice because Civair is not ready to fly.

On Monday Civair Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver confirmed that the Boeing 747-200 he had said was originally scheduled to begin flying on October 30, would be unable to fly before December 18.

"I don't want to go into detail, but we have no alternative but to delay our flight until December 18," said Cluver. He was unable to guarantee that this was the final delay.

British holidaymaker Julie Pagan, in Cape Town for a fortnight to visit her parents, on Monday said she had paid Civair R4 000 for a return ticket she had booked online.

Shortly before she was due to fly here, Civair had
emailed her to say the airline was not yet operational.

"They told me to travel with South African Airways (SAA) at no extra cost because they said they had arranged to transfer my flight."

But when she had tried to board an SAA flight at Heathrow with her Civair ticket, SAA had refused to fly her unless she bought a one-way SAA ticket back to England, because the Civair return ticket would not be recognised as valid by immigration authorities here.

"Civair was not in operation, so no airline could bring me to South Africa unless I bought a ticket out of the country. I had no choice."

She paid SAA R5 000 for the ticket back to England on the understanding that if she was allowed into South Africa with her Civair return ticket, SAA would refund the money.

But at Cape Town she was allowed to enter the country only on production of the SAA ticket.

At the Civair office in Cape Town the next day, a man identified only as Andy "advised me that they were not interested in my problem".

"He said I should take the matter up with SAA because as far as he was concerned, Immigration here were happy to accept e-tickets. He said I was the only passenger having difficulties.

"On Tuesday I had a call from Civair advising me that they would not be in operation when I return to England, and I must not cash in the ticket from SAA.

"Civair said they would give me a refund on their return ticket, about R2 000."

She estimated that the "low cost" Civair ticket had effectively cost her about R9 000.

"If I'd bought my ticket from SAA in the first place, it would have cost me maybe R6 500."

Londoner Aiden Smit, another would-be Civair passenger who was planning to spend Christmas with his mother in Cape Town, said he had booked to fly to Cape Town on December 16, returning on January 19.

"About 10 of my friends are booked on the same flight, and we have all now been told it's cancelled.

"Civair has totally ruined our holiday, and has caused pain and heartache to people who cannot see friends and family for Christmas and New Year. We can't afford to buy a ticket now."

Smit said he had been assured of a refund in two days.

Estimating that Civair had close to R2-million from at least 500 return fares at an average cost of R4 000, Smit asked why the airline had been allowed to accept money before it was ready to fly.

"Tickets from London to South Africa are horrendously overpriced for this time of year and airlines must be making a fortune.

"I applaud Civair for its idea, but it is very unfair to be letting so many people down.

"This is a complete flop. The sad thing is that if it had all been done correctly, Civair could have made a fortune in season."

On Monday Cluver said: "Their money is safe. It is held in trust by auditors. We don't even see the money.

"Anyone who wants a refund should submit proof that they have paid for the ticket.

"People should get in touch by emailing us at [email protected]"

[onthecase]

Smit said he had been assured of a refund in two days.
that is from the above

this is from them today

We will require the following information to process the refund:

1. Credit card / bank account details.
2. BANK SORT CODE (for ALL foreign accounts including VISA and Mastercard
accounts)
3. Full name & physical address of the Bank.
4. Physical address of the passenger/sponsor who is holder of the account.
5. For a VISA Card (or any other kind of credit card) we need the Bank name,
which holds the card and a branch name & physical address.
6. A COPY OF THE BANK STATEMENT REFLECTING THE PAYMENT made to Civair
Airways (required for authorisation of the refund).

PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT NO REFUNDS WILL BE ACTIONED UNLESS ALL THE ABOVE
INFORMATION IS FURNISHED.


So who can do that lot in two days when it would have to go by mail, as no one would send it in an e-mail!!!!

Anyone got the real deal on this mysterious SA money system or can they just pay it back, if they wanted to???

[Teignmouth]

Nothing on the Civair website, not even an apology and, by the looks of it, you can still book a ticket for flights prior to 18 December!

I feel really sorry for those people whose Christmas holidays will be ruined by this fiasco. But what were they thinking of, paying for tickets on an airline that didn't even exist yet?

As the old chestnut goes: "If to sounds too good to be true, it usually is".

Look on the bright side, onthecase, we're going to stuff you in the cricket anyway, so best you stay at home and watch it on TV!!! Not really - I do feel for you and all disappointed pax.

Try contacting Nationwide Airlines: maybe VB can launch a rescue of some sort: he has the skill and experience to do it.

[onthecase]

Think the end is nigh, even the PR machine has packed up. No one at Civair is answering the phone or e-mail. They aren't even trying to convince us that Dec 19th will happen.
Well it won't Stansted state they have never had any firm commitment from civair. EAC are stating they have spoken to them for months but have never had a confirmation.
It's all down to civair but they ain't speaking/

[driver airframe]

I see there are two 747-200's parked at SAA maintanance on JIA and from the paint sceme it looks like old United airlines a/c. CIVAIR???? The one a/c has been in the hanger for the last couple of days.

[Deanw]

Heard Cluver being interviewed on the radio (567 Cape Talk) this morning. Herewith the jist of the conversation, without comment form myself ;)

He acknowledge that their had been delays and that they were not taking telephone calls as their telephones cannot cope. Therefore, people could contact them via email.

He says that the delay is a result of his funding not coming through, but he is working on it and that they will commence services towards the end of December.

He also says that people can claim refunds via email. When asked if it will be a full refund, he confirmed that people were entitled to a 'full refund'.

[Pistol Pete]

Fledgling airline to refund passengers
Maureen Marud
December 02 2004 at 12:48PM

No frills airline Civair is advising passengers booked on its only Boeing 747-200 to make other travel arrangements.

"I am not going to guarantee that our problems will be resolved overnight," Andy Cluver, CEO of Civair, said on Wednesday. "I would rather refund their money so that they can try to get on another airline. We have been very honest about it."

This week Civair announced that the start of its advertised low-cost, no frills service had again been delayed due to circumstances "beyond our control". Originally scheduled to fly on October 30, the inaugural flight was first postponed to December 4, and now to December 18.

Cluver said on Wednesday the cause of the delay was "our investor base did not come to light at the last minute", and there was no guarantee that the money Civair needed to get off the ground would be available by December 18.

The airline was supposed to fly between Cape Town, Durban and London's Stansted airport, for a return fare of about R4 000, economy class.

Cluver estimated that about 500 bookings had been affected by the delay.

Asked if the service would ever get off the ground, Cluver replied: "We are not going to stop trying. Maybe next year we will come up with some specials for these people."

Kobus Nell, chartered accountant with the firm Alliott, Andersen and Nell of Diep River, said his firm was keeping all fares paid by passengers in a trust account, and some refunds had already been paid.

"We were appointed by the Civil Aviation Authority to manage the money people paid for tickets so that, if anything should go wrong, the money would be secure and could be paid back.

"Passengers are getting all their money back, whatever they deposited."

Meanwhile calls and email messages have been streaming in to the Cape Argus from disappointed passengers and family members who were expecting Christmas visitors to arrive on Civair.

Jake Patterson of Somerset West said his son Peter had booked with Civair to fly to Britain to propose, get married and return with his bride.

"This delay in his wedding plans will change his whole life. It has put a damper on everything.

"We are trying all the flights for any cancellations. Of course, we would have to help him with the extra ticket costs now."

Like many other callers, Patterson asked: "How can they advertise something like this and take bookings for it, when it has not been finalised? It is unbelievable!"

Some would-be passengers complained that they could not get through to the fledgling airline's telephone, nor its email.

Oliver Potgieter of London, who had hoped to reach Cape Town by December 18 in time for his brother's wedding, said he had tried without success to reach Civair by email and their phone number was permanently engaged.

"I fully understand the pressures of new business, but having had no information or correspondence from them is inexcusable," he said.

Cluver said on Wednesday: "So many people are phoning that we cannot answer our phones. And our e-mail is down."

He asked people to communicate with Civair by
emailing [email protected]. The telephone number is 021 934 4462.

[Pistol Pete]

Dean W..... LOL

[Life'sShort-FlyFast]

I guess that people on the street are pretty gullible. Right from the start the guys in the industry have been shouting "Red Flag!" and it has been confirmed that they were correct.

The afrikaans expression, goedkoop is deurkoop, really works well in this instance. I feel sorry for all those naive individuals who believed that they were going to London very cheaply. Hard lesson learned. I hope that AC does not go through the same process (as he is promising to do) and dupe many more next year!

[marauding_bison]

copy email from civair - this related to booking for 30/12 return 9/1. It would appear that these are being sent out to anyone who chases them for a response.


==========================================



CIVAIR FLIGHT CANCELATIONS

Dear Valued Customer,

Due to a delay beyond our control, we will not commence with the intended
flights, until further notice.

Passengers booked on flights can request a refund which will be paid in
terms with our conditions of sale. There could be a delay in receiving
refunds outside of South Africa as they require exchange control approval.

We will require the following information to process the refund:

1. Credit card / bank account details.
2. BANK SORT CODE (for ALL foreign accounts including VISA and MasterCard
accounts)
3. Full name & physical address of the Bank.
4. Physical address of the passenger/sponsor who is holder of the account.
5. For credit cards we need the Bank name, which holds the card and a branch
name & physical address.
6. A COPY OF THE BANK STATEMENT REFLECTING THE PAYMENT made to Civair
Airways (required for authorisation of the refund).

PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT NO REFUNDS WILL BE ACTIONED UNLESS ALL THE ABOVE
INFORMATION IS FURNISHED

Please follow the following procedures to claim your refund:

1. Send an e-mail to [email protected] with your date of travel in the
subject line.
2. At the top of the e-mail, quote the passenger's full name and
surname, the Order Number and PNR numbers.
3. Attach bank documentation referred to above or fax to +27 21 934
4462. Mark all faxed correspondence clearly.

Not following the above procedures may delay your refund.

We do regret and apologise for this inconvenience.

Yours Sincerely
Andy Cluver
C.E.O.

[Goldfish Jack]

One wonders how much longer we are going to have to put up with this conman. He has a PROVEN RECORD of FAILED ATTEMPTS to operate an airline. Look at his history:

C Town to Plett - FAILED
Joberg to Kimberley - FAILED
C Town via Durban/Joberg to Kruger International - NEVER GOT AIRBORNE

and now we have him trying to fly to London!!

My heart goes out to those people who were led to believe that this airline would fly and booked tickets. Those that know Civair know that it will NEVER get going and with all the negative publicity at the moment, does he really expect to get this route operating? TO those families that were hoping for a re-union over Xmas I feel for you - something you have really looked forward to will never happen now. I was asked by about 30 people, via family or friends, etc if this attempt at an airline was worth booking on and I managed to convince them not to book there. Luckily for them!

Does he really think that he is now going to get this up and running. One looks at his office - a worn out timber shack at the airport and one had to wonder what he was trying to do.

I think this could be a good one for the Scorpions.

All that he has so far succeeded in doing is giving SA aviation a bad name and added to the list of fly-by-night operators that hoped to hit the land of milk and honey, with scant disregard and feelings for all those passengers that he has messed around.

How about the TRUTH and an APOLOGY for mis-leading so many people???

[Sandiron]

Civair flights cancelled
Richard Holmes, Travel Editor
Posted Thu, 02 Dec 2004

Civair, the low-cost airline that was due to begin flights from South Africa to the United Kingdom on December 4, has cancelled all flights until further notice, leaving hundreds of passengers in the lurch as the peak holiday season gets underway.

The airline has called it "a delay beyond our control," but the reasons for the postponement are believed to revolve around financing and the leasing of an aircraft.

Civair CEO, Andy Cluver, told travel industry publication Travel News Now that he could not "give a date or make promises" on when the service would get off the ground.

Civair had planned to fly three times per week from Durban and Cape Town to London Stansted, with one-way fares starting at R1999. The original launch date of October 30 was postponed to this Saturday, December 4, before the latest announcement cancelling all flights indefinitely.

Following the messy collapse of airlines like SunAir and MaidenAir, which left many passengers and travel agents out of pocket, all monies paid to Civair were kept in a Passenger Protection Trust Account held by a firm of Cape Town-based auditors.

Civair has assured all passengers booked on flights that they will receive a full refund. For more information passengers should contact the airline on [email protected] or their call centre on 0860 248 247, although when iafrica.com tried to call the phone rang repeatedly without being anwered.

[T Hairy Henry]

It's not really about the money! For most of the pax, it's about the fact that they can't get home for Christmas or can't go on holiday.

Does the Passenger Protection Trust Account also find them a flight for the same price on BA, SAA, Virgin, KLM or Lufthansa?

No!

One of ya best Civair, one of ya best!!!

[Gasoline]

This is an email which has been circulating recently...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hi there everyone

I thought I'd write this email before someone else is subjected to this experience!
I'm sure you've all heard of Civair - the low cost airline that is supposed to be offering cheap flights between the UK and SA. They've been advertising for a while now, and their website is all set up (www.civair.com) Yes that's right. If you log on now you can book flights, pay and be under the illusion that you're actually going to fly somewhere.
This is not the case.

On Tues pm I called my sister (due to depart on 4 Dec with Civair to Durban) in much excitement to find out how her packing was going and generally get more excited about the thought of being together for Christmas. Her tone told me that something was wrong. Apparently she and her partner had just received an email! from Civair vaguely explaining that they would not be flying on the 4th - all flights were moved out to the 18 Dec...and even this date they could not confirm would not be moved out later! Never mind that this was a group email sent to all the 'passengers' - there was little in the way of explanation about why the dates had changed and no apology!
So with much anger, frustration and disappointment I decided to
investigate a little further.

I called the telephone no's on the website - which were permanently engaged (someone obviously turned the phones off) Then I sent a fax and wrote emails.

Having not had any response, I drove out to the airport to try and
locate their 'offices' for myself. After much confusion, they do not have an office! Although the tourist information desk, ACSA, and airport staff are under the impression that they are located somewhere...they just can't tell me where. Then I hear that their desk will be set up on the 18 Dec..yeah right.

I manage to find out that Civair actually is a charter company who
organise helicopter flights, and they have a base out in the hangers about 5 kms from the airport. I manage to locate them and walk into the offices. Three staff members are sitting at their desks (one is hiding behind an office door) no one can answer my questions and no one offers one word of apology.
The worst of it, is when questioned "Do you have a plane to fly" - they are "unable to comment" and whether the flights will actually take place on the 18th "They cannot guarantee this".

So the only thing to do is get a a refund, which will take a 'while' to come through...whatever that means. And then they take off a merchants commission? So you dont even get your full refund!

I've contacted the Argus (they ran a story on this on 30/11), iafrica.com, Carte Blanche and today will contact 3rd Degree and Special Assignment.

I'm so tired of South Africans and potential visitors to this country being subjected to this kind of bull****. Enough with the quick-money-making schemes that are corrupt and cause so many people so much unhappiness.
I'm tired of being ripped off and seeing others experience the same thing.

After doing some internet research on Civair and Andy Cluver their CEO - you can see that he's been pushing this new airline for about a year. This is blatant false advertising. It becomes apparent on certain web pages that the negotiations for Civair to purchase the Boeing have not been completed.
How can they be taking people's money without a bloody plane to fly!

Please forward this to everyone you know, this company and their
website needs to be shut down."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: IS THIS A JOKE???

Cluver said on Wednesday: "So many people are phoning that we cannot answer our phones. And our e-mail is down."
He asked people to communicate with Civair by
emailing [email protected]. The telephone number is 021 934 4462.

[Pistol Pete]

Some disgruntled ex-pax has set up a website:

http://www.uncivilair.bravehost.com/

[Teignmouth]

I checked the Civair website today, expecting to see some sort of announcement from Civair and, who knows, maybe even an apology of some sort?

Instead, the opening page consists of a picture of two padlocks and a key, wtih the blunt message "THE STORE IS CLOSED".

Says a lot to me about the cavalier attitude that has been displayed by Civair and its management in recent weeks.

A recent statement said that Civair could not be expected to refund taxes, credit card commissions or exchange rate losses. I'm no lawyer, but my guess is they are under a legal obligation to do so. Furthermore, they should pay interest on the money they've been holding. As it happens, all fares were quoted in Rands, so exchange rate losses don't come into it. However, it might be that some overseas pax could recover a few extra pounds and they deserve to.

There needs to be a change in the law to prevent this sort of shambolic situation arising in the future.

[Pistol Pete]

Teignmouth...... this is what I get at www.civair.com..... basically it is the same twaddle that was pattered out in his emails to the punters:

Dear Valued Customer

We deeply regret to advise that due to investor withdrawal, Civair has been forced to cancel all its intended flights until further notice.

All purchased tickets will be refunded as quickly as possible. Certain information (see below) is required from you by Civair's auditors (trustees of the trust account holding your money) in order for them to process the refunding transactions with all possible speed and accuracy. The auditors do advise, however, that both due to the volume of the refunds to be transacted and due to the fact that exchange control approval is required for payments to be made outside South Africa, some weeks may elapse before the refunded money is received. Providing us with South African bank account details will speed up the refund process considerably. PLEASE NOTE: any request for payment into an account other than the account from which the payment was originally made, must be accompanied by written authorisation to pay the refund money into the alternate account.

Refunding will take place in accordance with the terms and conditions of sale as recorded on the website, and accepted by the person making the reservation.

INFORMATION REQUIRED BY THE AUDITORS IN ORDER TO PROCESS THE REFUND:


1. Passenger's full name and surname, the order number and the PNR number.
2. A current e-mail address.
2. Date(s) of flight.
3. Credit card/ bank account number and details.
4. BANK SORT CODES (for ALL foreign accounts including Visa and Master cards).
5. Full name and physical address of the bank, and the relevant branch.
6. Physical address of the passenger or sponsor who is the holder of the account
7. A COPY OF THE BANK STATEMENT REFLECTING THE PAYMENT MADE TO CIVAIR (required for authorisation of the refund).

PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT NO REFUNDS WILL BE ACTIONED UNLESS ALL THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS FURNISHED

Please FAX the above to us at +27 21 934 4462. Please do not use the info@civair e-mail address as it is inundated with queries.

So as to negate the possibility of double handling (and so delay procedures), please send your details by fax ONLY ONCE. We will confirm receipt via e-mail.

We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Yours faithfully

Andy Cluver

C.E.O

[carnivoruslegallus]

"Ol Andy" really did make a fool of himself this time. The ego got a bit bigger than the IQ, and he thought that he could pull it off with no money. Co'mon Andy, you surely did'nt think it was gonna work for you, did you???? with NO loot????

"Tis also amazing how many companies rely on Black Empowerment "investors, who deals big, but their deals just never seems to get off the ground.:{

Viva BEE, viva SA and viva "ol Andy". Better luck next time.:ok:

[BAKELA]

Teignmouth,There needs to be a change in the law to prevent this sort of shambolic situation arising in the future.The law(s) is (are) there...!!! (International Air Services Act No 60 of 1993, as amended, with Regulations, 1994 - and, internationally speaking, with the above law making several references to the Air Services Licensing Act No 115 of 1990, with Regulations, 1991, as amended). There are two licensing Councils (international and domestic) appointed by the NDoT to look after these matters.

Maybe there needs to be the couarge as well as the will to enforce the law, across the board, at grassroots level as well. Laws are easy to make, debate and promulgate...we all know that!!! But enforcement seems to be all too difficult.

Remember Phoenix Airways ('94 -'95)...pre-sold tickets...consumers lost out.

I really hope the responsible enforcement authorities do something about THIS one! :sad:

[Deanw]

From Moneyweb:


Civair – the Cape Town-based low-cost airline that failed to commence services on 3 December and left hundreds of passengers to make other travel arrangements – has been summoned to appear before the department of transport’s International Air Services Council (IASC) on 26 January 2005.

The hearing is open to the public and will be held at the department of transport’s premises in Pretoria.

The airline – a shoot-off of a charter company based in Cape Town – was initially supposed to start flying from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on 30 October this year, a date that was postponed to 3 December and also failed to materialise.

According to the department of transport’s web site, the IASC is a statutory body established in terms of the International Air Services Act 1993 to adjudicate applications for the operation of international air services by South African residents. Wrenelle Stander, the council’s chairperson and director-general of transport, says that Civair met all the council’s requirements when it applied for a licence in September 2003: “As part of
the process of granting a license to operate a new scheduled passenger airline, the council requires that potential operators submit documentation that includes proof of ownership or access to a suitable, airworthy aircraft. Civair presented documentation to the IASC and was granted a license to operate a service between South Africa and the United Kingdom in September 2003.”

She says that at the council’s December meeting, it was informed that Civair had failed to begin operating its scheduled services as anticipated: “At this stage, Civair also informed us that it had suspended services due to the unavailability of an aircraft,” she says.

She says that the council approached chartered accounting firm Alliott Andersen Nell with regard to the status of the refunding of passengers in line with the consumer protection guarantee submitted to council by Civair:
“The council was informed by Alliott Andersen Nell Inc that the refund process was underway, and it was anticipated that this process would be completed by mid-December 2004.”

However, the initial figure of 900 passengers affected given by Civair CEO Andy Cluver is much higher. In a letter sent to the department of transport on 2 December and made available to Moneyweb, the firm’s Kobus Nell wrote
“approximately 3292 tickets were sold, of which 202 were refunded to date, leaving 3090 tickets to be refunded”.

Nell wrote that South African and UK residents would receive the full amount of their ticket less 3,5% merchant’s commission charged by the banks on the credit card transaction. However, the amount paid to UK residents may vary from their paid amount because of exchange rates.

Nell also wrote that the bank charge per ticket refund locally would be R23,94 and to the UK R203,94. “The interest that we have earned on the deposits are utilised to pay for these bank charges,” he wrote.

[Pistol Pete]

December 05, 2004

The Sunday Times

Your flight is leaving, er, never

Consumer watchdogs are calling for websites to be better policed after an airline was allowed to sell nonexistent cheap flights to South Africa.
Hundreds of travellers have been left stranded after booking tickets with the South Africa-based Civair Airways for flights between Stansted and Cape Town. Last week, having already delayed its proposed October launch twice, the carrier announced that it would postpone the start date indefinitely, citing funding problems.

The airline had been promoting the flights for as little as £500 over the internet since May, assuring prospective web customers: “After loads of blood, sweat and tears, Civair Airways was granted an international air service licence to operate five return flights per week between Cape Town and Durban and London Stansted.” In fact, it did not have a permit to fly into the UK from the Department of Transport, and although it had been in negotiations with Stansted, no deal had been agreed.

Stansted says: “We knew that they were advertising fares. We were concerned, but we have no jurisdiction over what a company puts on its website. It was fairly confident of launching in December, but there was no official sign-up, so we didn’t show the flights on our online schedule.”

About 900 ticketholders have been affected. Several have contacted The Sunday Times to complain. C Chapman e-mailed to say: “Civair cancelled our flights for October at the last minute, and has deducted £170 from our refund for currency and credit-card charges. The company ruined our holiday.”

K Keyser of London, who had been due to fly out on December 18, says: “There are many angry people out there who have been let down. Even if the company refunds us, the price of tickets to fly to South Africa for Christmas is now verging on the ridiculous. I suppose the lesson is: if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.”

Civair says: “We have the paperwork to prove we were fully licensed, but a financier backed out at the last minute. We are returning all the money we hold, but cannot return fees we have paid to credit cards or losses on exchange rates.”

The Air Transport Users Council (020 7240 6061, www.auc.org.uk), which campaigns for air passengers’ rights, said: “There should be legislation to prevent companies from advertising flights unless they have the necessary governmental approval to proceed.”

[Deanw]

Civair says: “... We are returning all the money we hold, but cannot return fees we have paid to credit cards or losses on exchange rates.”

Why not? Surely setting up an airline carries the normal risks associated with any new business venture (if not more) and all expenses are thus a legitimate business cost.

If the tickets are being refunded through no fault of the customer, then a full refund should be just that ... a full refund. All the bank charges, commisions paid, etc, by the company are taken above the line on the Income Statement and can thus be claimed as a tax deduction (expense incurred on the normal course of business) ... err, I think I see the problem :E :}

Besides, I've purchased items from retail stores on my credit card, for which the retail store paid the bank a commision. I've then returned the item and the store refunded the full purchase price, they didn't deduct commissions, etc.

I can understand the forex loss issue (ticket priced in rands, therefore refund in rands), but the bank commision?

[BAKELA]

For me the laugh of the day is a local SA talk radio station in JNB saying that a UK based airline (Civair) folded and left 5000 UK cricket supporters stranded in the UK. I have no doubt that 5000 of the "Army" is stranded but... "UK based"?

Maybe the news staff (and management) at this station need to shape up. Just a thought...I've also recently heard from them that Bronkhorstspruit (Dronkwordspruit for those in the know about the dam) is north of Pretoria (or should that be Tswane?) instead of due east!!!

The last time I had a laugh like this was when their station manager (nogal) reported on DEXSA 2002 (I think it was still DEXSA then?) at Kloof (after the two unfortunate Harvard prangs) that the pilot did not use his "ejaculation" seat.:suspect:

Edited by Bakela for after effects of Dronkwordspruit that became Naboomspruit by mistake in the original post.

[Deanw]

The last time I had a laugh like this was when their station manager (nogal) reported on DEXSA 2002 (I think it was still DEXSA then?) at Kloof (after the two unfortunate Harvard prangs) that the pilot did not use his "ejaculation" seat.

Now that is funny :)

But then, the Harvard does do it for me too :E :ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Bakela

Bronkhorstspruit perhaps?

[BAKELA]

:O :O :O Thanks SRT.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

De nada......


Pity about the supporters not making it because of the greed/megalomania of one person. Would've been great to have them in SA for the series as they do a lot of charity work and are generally a good crowd of okes to have around. Perhaps the SACB and the hospitality providers should look into giving AC a bit of stick as well, lost revenue and such....

[Goldfish Jack]

SRT

Do you REALLY think that AC cares about the SACB, the hospitality providers or for that matter the Barmy army?

The more one hears about this debacle the more one wonders..... Maybe his billionaire financier that did not come forth with the money was Gary van der Merwe

Now that is a frightening thought...................................!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

"Do you REALLY think that AC cares about the SACB, the hospitality providers or for that matter the Barmy army?"


The weasel might if he gets slapped with a lawsuit for damages. At the very least it may get him to rethink his get-rich-quick schemes......

[Pistol Pete]

http://www.civaircancelsxmas.com/

Hope you all had a good weekend.

Seems like some of the natives are getting restless. :D

PPete

[Boss Raptor]

Civair just been featured in detail on BBC Watchdog TV programme (14 Dec), Cluver on live feed interview from CPT didnt fair too well basically labelled liar and conman, they claimed he never even had approval from UK nor had even spoken to anyone about it...he of course claimed he had...they questioned his interesting/creative refund procedures and charges

[marauding_bison]

"If the tickets are being refunded through no fault of the customer, then a full refund should be just that ... a full refund.."
-DeanW

True. Without wishing to sound legalistic i think a distinction may need to be drawn between the claims us civair customers have on the trust fund holding ticket moneys and the claims we have against civair.

The first thing to remember about the trust fund is that that monety belongs to teh creditors, not civair. Our respective claims on the trust fund possibly only extends to the extent that our money was actually paid to the trustees (the auditors). The auditors will only have received the ticket proceeds net of the credit card commissions so that is all there is in the trust fund that can be refunded to us BY THE TRUST FUND net of the cost of sending it back.

I agree that you are right that a full refund generally means a full refund. So in the absence of anything to the contrary in civair's terms and conditions (ie your contract with them) and to the extent that such terms are valid and enforceable (e.g. in english law we have consumer protection legislation including the Unfair Contract Terms Act and th Unfair Terms (Consumer Contracts) Regulations which sometimes invalidate clauses limiting liability etc, whether there is anything in South African Law that might affect the contract I dont know) the balance (ie costs and commissions etc representing the difference between the payment you made to civair in ZAR and the amount of ZAR paid back by the trust fund) should in theory be recoverable from civair out of its own resources. I have heard that the relevant bit of civair's terms and conditions changed during the autumn. If so whether you have a claim may depend on whether you booked before or after they changed their terms.


Note that when i say 'civair's resources' i mean the entity with which you had your contract as opposed to those of any other company with a similar name, andy cluver or anyone else. The problem is that as that entity is a collapsed airline which never looks like flying anywhere and with no financial backing, it probably does not have resources of its own (or if it does it probably wont have for long). So if they refuse to repay it you may not want to spend further time effort and money suing them.

If you paid by credit card you may be able to recover any shortfall from the card company. Section 75 of the (English) Consumer Credit Act 1974 provides as a general rule (i.e. subject to exceptions) that when you use an (english) credit card (nb this does not include debit cards etc) to buy something costing over £100 but less than £30,000 both the card company and the 'supplier' are equally responsible for your purchase. For example, if the goods are not delivered or are faulty, you can claim your money back from either the card company or the supplier.

[Pistol Pete]

What a pity I missed it. That would have been a laugh.

Anyone tape it that can convert it to digi and email it to me?

[despatch]

I am just glad I did not apply to become cabincrew with civair would made redundant before even setting off:eek: .Starting in february with BMED after being with monarch airlines for 3 years.Maybe i will apply to comair in the near future.They seem like a stable company
Seasons greetings(Nou ons gaan die krismis vleis by die baas kry)

[Pistol Pete]

Hi all

Here's what it says about Civair lifted from the BBC Watchdog website.

Civair Airways

14th December 2004

Following in the footsteps of Freddie Laker, the budget airline industry has really taken off in the past few years.

There are the 'no frills' airlines with no in-flight meals, no paper tickets and no reserved seating. Now South African company Civair Airways has gone one step further – no planes.

Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.

Civair delayed all flights until 4 December, and Colin's flight was cancelled. He has not received a full refund and he has lost money on accommodation he had booked in South Africa.

When Civair Airways delayed it's flights again, this time until 18 December, Vicki-Ann Hughes also had her flight cancelled. She had paid five hundred and eighty pounds. She was planning to visit her 83-year-old aunt for Christmas and spend New Year in Cape Town with a group of friends. Vanessa Wright was one of them. She paid six hundred and sixty pounds for her flight. Both Vicki-Ann and Vanessa ended up having to pay twice as much for another ticket with another airline.

Caroline Harris and Becky Charles paid nearly one thousand pounds between them for flights to South Africa in February. They only found out last week (6 December) that Civair Airways was having problems and now fear they will miss their friend's wedding. Until they receive a refund they are in limbo and can't afford to buy another ticket.

Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines. The only way you can contact Civair Airways is via a fax number.

The man behind Civair Airways is Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver. He does have some smaller planes and also helicopters which he uses to run luxury flights and scenic tours within Africa.

Speaking direct from South Africa, Andy Cluver apologised for the situation. The funding that he claims was approved and signed for didn't come through. He said everyone would receive a refund less the commissions on credit card transactions and banking fees. The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.

Just some thoughts:

Quote:
Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.

Not such a good deal really. £462.50 each. Hmmmmm. I know quite a few full service airlines that he could have flown with in October for that price.

Quote:
Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines.

4200 people at an average of £350 return (conservatively that is some payed £400 plus for a return but I am not sure what the cheapest return flight was) is £1,47mil! Good racket!

Quote:
The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.

AC must be quite upset that he put the money in trust. That's a shedload of caipiriniahs in Rio . I am willing to take 1000/1 bet of at least a grand at the bookies that the airline will never get off the ground now. I don't think any bookie would even give those odds. There is so much PR damage done now and very pissed off punters that I don't think anyone will buy tickets until some flights have actually flown thus bringing up a wee bit of a vicious circle.

PPete

[marauding_bison]

the civair website (before it got taken down) suggested that the trust arrangements were a requirement of some south african consumer protection regulations. it seems highly unlikely that they were something cluver did out of the kindness of his heart.

i would be v surprised if civair ever gets off the ground flying between london and cape town. given the publicity (and spate of budget airline failures recently) uk consumers are likely to be a bit more cautious. i doubt many would knowingly buy tickets from any cluver company without the protection of an ATOL number. i doubt cluver would be able to get one without providing a massive bond, if at all.