ATC Speed Restrictions FAJS

[orgasmotron]

Can someone please put the ATC scenario in perspective for me. I will start by telling how I see things.

In my mind ATC provides an excellent service in seperating traffic and getting as much traffic to land and depart. We all get a bit annoyed when having to hold when the wx is cavok with 2 RWY's operating or to fly a dogleg to accommodate slower traffice, but hey that is part of life and we can't win them all.

What I do not understand, is why Central 120.3 aks you to maintain highest Mach number, then Area asks for 300 Kts or greater in the descent, and then radar wants minimum clean speed ? Maybe me bit ignorant. Can someone please enlighten me a bit.

This also happens the other way round (slow to fast).

My itentions are not to slant ATC at all, but to the average bus driver out there, this looks like someone is not talking to oak next door.

Kaapstad seems to be doing better in that case, but then again they are not so busy as JHB.

While on the ATC subject, what really irretates the living ^&&^%% out of me, is some crews that think they can confront ATC on the frequency and complain about unfair treatment. Somehow they think ATC have it in for their company (often subsidised). Please grow up. Report perceived unfair treatment to you company and let them handle it.


Maybe goldfish can help.

Thanks for all the great controlling otherwise .

[anatc2]

Even though it may seem like we do things without any reason at Fajs there is method to our madness. You must remember that there is one landing runway at Fajs. Traffic approaches the Tma from all sides to land on that runway. We need to sequence the traffic inbound in a fashion that is most expeditious. When we work out our sequence from far away sometimes if two acft are the same distance from jhb a speed restriction is put in place by either speeding someone up or slowing someone down.

Once the space required is achieved than plans change and we now have a bigger sequence to take into account. With all the different acft types that fly into jhb from C208-B777, it makes life quite hard for us to get everyone properly seperated on final. Remember ypu need 5 miles on final and 8 miles behind a heavy, the Tma becomes small very quickly!!!

I think the main reason pilots get frustrated is a lack of THE BIGGER PICTURE, the sky is usually full and we do the best we can. The best way to understand why we do what we do is to spend a day at the control centre and get a better idea of THE BIGGER PICTURE, i think you will appreciate us more once you have.And just a thanks to those pilots that do as we ask, without question and make controlling a pleasure!!!!

[Little One]

Also it is easier to sequence from the south cause its all our airspace whereas from the north we have little control as to how we recieve the traffic from Gabs and Harare etc.
Therefore we prefer to start spacing from the south and try get distance between the arrivals from the south and then put the arrivals from the north on a downwind and feed them into the gaps area south has made fo us. However we have to have all acft doing the same speed on final to ensure that the required spacing is maintained. Acft on downwind will have been slowed already so that is why speed will be pulled on 1st ctc from Radar although area could of had you fast to keep there spacing from the south so the gaps don't close. The main problem is the straight in approaches as obvously they put you staight on to final so the distance to touchdown is limited whereas on a down wind if the spacing can't be achieved then the downwind can be extended, so the only way to keep spacing is use positive speed control.
However I am a newby on Radar so maybe more people can tell you more but come visit it will help clar up a lot of th misconceptions

[Goldfish Jack]

Well here comes the Goldfish!! Orgasmotron you want a reply and I am going to try my best!!

I share you frustration – how many times have I flown into FAJS only to hear on passing UVUKA that we are cleared for the GESIN arrival, then told to hold at WM then recleared to HGV to hold, then recleared for the Heidelberg arrival and then vectored to land on 03L!! Believe you me, just about every time I go north, and spend time in a cockpit, this is what I hear!!!

To solve the problem, one has to go back many years. FAJS and FACT are very different, but times are changing. FAJS has always specialized in one discipline, that is you either work area or approach. Not so at FACT, but this is changing – we are now training the new staff in one discipline, so I am sure we are going to have the same problems at FACT as at FAJS, but not for long and I will address that later.

The main problem is that the area controllers do not fully understand the approach controller’s work and vice versa. How do I know? I have worked both for almost 20 years and it is VERY evident with the new specialized controllers we are producing. This leads to a situation in which the area controller down south is making the aircraft fly very fast (why do some people use such high speeds? – the slower they fly the more time you have and the more aircraft you can handle), to keep you ahead of aircraft behind you and you are given over to approach which is also accepting aircraft from the north. Suddenly approach becomes very busy and they have to slow down all the aircraft – so you are going flat out and then you have to slow down to avoid hauling in aircraft on the ILS ahead of you – because approach has also got all the aircraft from the north that the south sectors did not know about. (I think that is what you are getting at orgasmotron – correct me if I am wrong)

We do not have this problem at FACT, as we only have 1 sector for app and area and we are all cross qualified, well we were until recently, hence we have an idea of how the sectors work and what is trying to be achieved. It goes a long way to making the system work well. (another analogy – you don’t mess me around today and I won’t mess you around tomorrow!!!!)

The solution is to try and have some sort of flow control. At present it is done by the controllers on duty – there is a CAMU office at FAJS, but they deal with everything else except traffic management and only seem to work during the week. I have just done a course through Eurocontrol on flow control and their CAMU and boy, do we have a lot to learn in this country. The flow control we have, is frankly, a bit of a joke. We, at FACT, get these fancy messages that say there is flow control into the FAJS FIR and all aircraft must be co-ordinated prior to dep. Then you phone them about an aircraft into FADN and they say it only applies to the FAJS TMA!. So straight away you have confusion. The telex is not even right! Then a common situation develops, in that they want the aircraft 10 mins apart of dep. Now picture the situation – a BE20 goes first, 10 mins later a C550, then 10 mins later a B732, then 10 mins later a B744!! And guess what – they all meet each other over UVUKA!!!! Or we get asked to match their mach numbers, but the a/c are at different levels, or as sometimes happens, we get asked to match their groundspeeds!!!!! Now how do you do that? I have always maintained that when they want flow control into FAJS, they should issue times for UVUKA for each a/c and then we calculate back the take off time and depart aircraft to ensure they arrive at UVUKA without any delays!! But then I failed std 6, so what do I know??

But the good news is that this should all be coming to an end soon. Two issues are being addressed to solve the problem – the first is the acquisition of a flow monitor tool, which will tell the ATCs which a/c must be where and when to avoid delays and ensure max utilization of the runways. This is an Aussie based tool (not that thing silly!) and it works there, so it should work here. The problem here is that it will require discipline by both ATCs to trust and use it and also pilots to comply with their restrictions. It will require very accurate flying and discipline. Don’t try and beat the system, as you will only wait and hold somewhere or be chased out of the queue and go to the back and try again later. If you are issued a RTA, do it, otherwise you will just stuff the system up and cause further delays. It is a system that monitors the radars and traffic to a certain point and is constantly updating itself.

The second issue is the removal of straight-in approaches and the use of feeder fixes. This is common overseas now and we are moving that way in SA as well. These fixes are away from the airfield and all aircraft will route via these points and then be vectored to be on final at the same speed – allowing for handling of more a/c. These should hopefully be around soon – maybe even this year when all the Sids and STARs are changed as we move to our new equipment.

So we are trying to do something.

Now anatc2, I must take issue with some of your comments. There is only 1 landing runway at FAJS. Which one is it? 03L or 03R? How many times have I sat at 03L and waited to take-off whilst aircraft are landing on it, yet 03R is also being used for landing. Please tell us which one it is and stick to it!!! You speak about slowing 2 a/c down and then going to the big picture. Maybe the big picture should be addressed first and then slow down the 2 a/c. Madness, methods, etc etc – I am sure I will understand it one day. Come to FACT – we have 50% of your movements, sorry not yours, a/c movements!! and 1 runway and we deal with anything from a piper cub doing circuits to a lightning also trying to do circuits all at the same time – far more fun than being an aerodrome controller at FAJS!!!! Oh and did I mention that we only have 1 airfield with an ILS in the western Cape, so EVERYONE does IF training there as well?

Little one – u are new – good luck and enjoy it – please edit your posting and correct your spelling mistakes – pilots will hope your controlling is better than your spelling!!!!!!!

Orgasmotron, I agree with you about the behaviour of some pilots. I know the ones you are going on about and many of them are yellow tails flying big aircraft. We are trying out best and if you want to take out your frustrations, do it elsewhere – not on our frequencies – they are busy and we have not got time to listen to your problems. The airspace is getting busier by the day and gone are the days of the yellow tails being the only aircraft flying high and fast. Just remember you can do it with many of my colleagues and all they will do is ask you to phone in (and u wont do that). I prefer to do the easier thing – file and increp and let the CAA sort it out – we recently had an outburst here by a pilot that had the student in a state of shock – was not on duty to witness it – only heard about it third party but I am sure that the relevant parties have sorted that pilot out. At least I hope so. It is amazing what an increp can do to correct a pilot’s attitude.

Here endeth the lesson!!!!

[The Actuator]

Sometimes I get the impression that the tail is wagging the dog. Perhaps if the controller put in a little more effort to put the pilot in the bigger picture, like they do in far more busy airspace than the FAJS FIR, then you wouldn't need to file those increps because you wouldn't get the queries. You can never give me too much info. I would love to be given a constant specific speed to fly from the time I start my descent to about 20 track miles to touchdown then I wouldn't care if it was fast or slow because I could plan. And in an ideal world I would love this information as soon as I start speaking to you. What becomes somewhat frustrating is to start the descent and then be told 2/3rds of the way down to keep the speed up.
What is a little surprising is the amount of bitching I hear and do, about the JHB controlling but one very seldom hear's whining about other countries controlling. For example we often get told to change speeds and get step climbs and descents in and out of LHR and you never know what is going to happen in Paris, Hong Kong frequently pull a fast one on you Zurich can be most unhelpfull at times yet we seldom complain we just deal with it and accept it because we percieve them to be busy I guess. Let JHB pull the same stuff and we have a real whine! Why - I can't say but it happens and it's not something I can explain. What I can say is that most of the places try to give you as much info as they can time permitting which doesn't seem to happen all that often in JHB.

We often get the impression that ATNS is simply unhelpfull. I'm sure that is not the individual controllers fault but that is the impression that is created and that leads to those snide or pesky questions you hear - again you can't give me too much info. Having said that I can only agree that there are guy's flying those bright tailed bigger planes that desperately need an attitude adjustment, but don't lump us all into one pigeon hole.
While I'm here a couple of questions please.

Are the rules for 5 miles and 8 miles written in stone or can they be changed?

What is the latest gen on high speed turn offs?

That's it. Go easy on those increps after all we don't really have as big a stick to beat you with when you are having a bad day.

[126,7]

The one big problem at JS is that nearly everybody gets to leave their cruising levels when they're ready. That leaves all the succeeding tfc higher and higher. The ACC south sector is only looking at his picture and not thinking about tfc approaching the TMA from HBV or NL. Speed restrictions are applied far too late at JS too. In Europe the ATC starts the descent for you and you get slowed down way out already. This all causes the TFC to be low and slow by the time it gets closer to the field. Easier to work with!!
JS also lacks the one thing most European Airports have: a computer assisted landing mangement tool! Not wanting to rag the poor excec sitting on 124,5 at JS, but this would make things a lot easier, as an arrival sequence at JS is basically a thumbsuck procedure.
I guess the procedures would have to be amended...... again! Inbound tfc to be a certain point at a certain level at a certain speed. And you slow everything following down! Approach fixes on base or downwind will also change things for the better, as would flow control. All good and well dishing out slots for departing tfc which would be easier to handel if there were no restrictions compared to the inbound tfc without restrictions!
8nm on final behind a heavy is firstly the wake and secondly because the heavy cant get his butt off the runway in time. Less than 10kts is required before he turns that nose wheel and by that time the next chap is going around. Dont know why high-speed turn-offs where never built or planned for!

[orgasmotron]

Thanks for all the ATC input. I agree, info is always a bonus since it would be time permitting, it would be more of a burden on our ATC to explain the whole airspace to each flight getting doglegged. Then again "for sequencing" does sound a bit blunt. But then again, would there be any other reason other than sequencing ?

I don't know. But I do know that if everybdoy except their clearances without griping the RT would be less glogged up.

I also agree not to try not to jakkals the system since you will loose out.

Can the big multi coloured tails spare us all the gory details of their delays and the reasons why they would like no speeds in CPT and a visual if possible on 01. We all get delayed for the same reasons but we try and keep it a little more private.

I think the ultimate solution is a flow pattern that leaves your descent and speeds up to ATC in a fashion that allows for a more constant speed to say 20nm.

If you get slowed down far enough without any doglegging or holds, your eta will only change by few minutes and the fuel burns will improve as well.

Thanks for all the honest answer from the oaks in the bowls.

Glad to see Goldfish see our point and offered some sound advice.

[Goldfish Jack]

Actuator re your high speed turn offs - ask ACSA we have given up asking them!! Last rumour was that the 3000 millenium celebrations have to take place first!! Oh and they don't know what aircraft are - they are more interested in making money in the car park and the shopping arcades!! You have got a big stick - PM me and I will tell you how it works!!!!!!!!

126,7 - you hit the nail on the head - "when ready descend to...." I have learnt when it gets busy (if you can call it that) you TELL the aircraft when to descend and that solves most of the problems straight away!! The 8 miles is not cast in stone but that is what we need otherwise everyone will be going around because of the useless taxiways!!! The flow management tool is coming - it is in our sims already and we are trying it out.

Orgasmotron - agree with you about the delays and why we have to fly high speeds. Excuse my ignorance but if you are late and you fly high speed you might make up a minute or two - will that make a difference when you are 60 mins late??????? Never mind what the STAR says about cancellation of speeds. The best part about it is that if they fly high speeds, they turn downwind so fast that they go forever on downwind. Why not just fly slow and you can turn downwind and turn base at 2 - 3 DME and save a lot of time (logic - apparantly not)

Thanks for the Compliment - glad to help - hope it cleared up the air a bit. Agree with your point about sequencing. Same as " fly such and such a heading for continious climb"

[makeapullup]

Wow so many people that know how to fix js problems isn't this great.
Orgasmo- since when did cavok or not cavok make a difference to 25 arrivals. funny thing is when its sunny its still 25 inbound. many pilots seem to think that suddenly more planes can land when the sun shines! the real difference is you will be delayed even longer if it weren't vmc.
Here's the big picture for all "bus drivers" Deps (eg FACT) want to land at Dest (eg FAJS)think - i might not be the only plane today. Solution - Speeds, holds,reclearances and congestion. This model can be applied anywhere in the world and I won't copywrite it.
GFJ- you seem to know exactly how to fix FAJS problems but you don't even work there. so how do you know they don't talk to each other. I guess you have never driven on o highway before either, slow down slow traffic in front, speed up to make a gap or stopping altogether when there are too many cars. (i see you like analogies)
All jets want the turboprops to go behind them but what happens (maybe not common in FACT) when there is no back!
Maybe if FACT had there own preplaning or flow control the BE20 won't be in front in the first place.
I do agree straightins should be burnt never to be heard of again, but check posting elsewhere in african aviation, looks like management not that convinced they should be replaced( straightins that is).
As for 03L 03R debate. Next time you are waiting at holding point waiting for landing acft, remember you might have landed on 03L yourself recently. Not really a good reason, how about BIG PICTURE again, sometimes overall delay less by landing a few on the left (remember 8nm becomes 3nm on // approach).
High speed taxiways would be great, but 8nm behind heavy for runway occupancy is a bit daft when KQA or UAE B767 or B777 turn of at "E". DHC8's sometimes complain about wake eventhough they are 8nm behind heavy. (not picking on DHC8)
Have to agree with Actuator Why all the bitching.

ps GFJ i apologise for any possible grammar or spelling error SIR please don't give me a bad mark.

[EltorroLoco]

Well halleluja!

Someone who also works @ FAJS with something 2 say - good work makeapullup!

Methinx the fish from other stations ought 2 wind their necks back into their bowls when commenting on airspaces they worked when the 1st jet airliner came into service.

The bottom line @ FAJS is that unlike coastal stations, tfc comes in here from all sides with the northern neighbours not passing estimates and the FIR being 20min from the airfield, it's quite likely that a couple of chickens from CT now have to be pushed back in the queue. This doesn't take into account the others departing from FALA who would also like to make use of our fine aerodrome, we are not prejudiced - they all look like little orange dots, no matter who they fly for or what they fly!

The mantra for ATC as it stands is "Safe, orderly and expeditious".
Taking safety as a given, the next goal is orderly. Central tries to give JHB South 20nm in trail with jets to give their buddies a fighting chance. This is irrespective of whatever else is inbound ,i.e from JHB East etc. This is understandable since you can't be expected to sequence your own tfc subject someone else's which you can't even see. JHB South then endeavours to give Radar 15nm in trail for all ac FL160 and above for the same reason. THIS IS WHY YOUR SPEEDS MAY HAVE TO CHANGE FROM SECTOR TO SECTOR. I realise this may not be the ideal, but it's the best we've got so far. You can always fly your own speeds - and my headings, it's all the same to me.

As to the 50% FACT bla bla - The stats from last years annual report says FAJS works 70% of the country's traffic, so methinx the other stations can back off accordingly.

On the subject of more info on frequency, methinx there is time for it, but with Say Again Airways so busy making one say everything twice and the requests for direct and 03L etc, it kinda tries your patience. Let's be honest dudes, most of your requests can be filed in the "No sh1t" box anyway.

I've found that most pilots have an attention span of about 10sec, which means "Get to the point - we're busy here". No-one enjoys a KC K*Kpraat giving tfc info about every ac within 20 miles which has no relevance whatsoever, clogging up the frequency and reducing the capacity of the airspace.

Now as to the landing runway - there is only one - the eastern one unless otherwise allocated by the tower controller. This is done for traffic (to help radar out with a busy sequence) or for runway inspections. That's how it is, like it or not - and it's generally given to the guys with their necks securely wound in!

That's enough now, enjoy your flight - whether it's direct-no-speeds or holds galore, at least you know you will probably get to do it again tomorrow!

[MASTER H.O.C.T.]

Being a present Radar ATC at FAJS I feel obliged to give my ten cents worth on this topic and try and clarify a few issues.
Firstly the speeds:
Remember that FAJS has traffic approaching from 7 different beacons or fixes in the TMA, either simultaneously or in specific combinations based mainly on the runway in use (21 or 03). Our airpace is not designed at present for the number of aircraft entering the TMA espcially during peak periods. The easiest way to explain it is to think of the drain hole in a bath...pull the plug and all the water converges on the middle and down the hole. The hole is FAJS...everything wants to land there. Cape Town mainly has traffic appoaching from the land side, very little from over the ocean so does not have this problem (I won't mention the fact that they handle less than half of the traffic we do...another issue altogether).
We have zero control over aircraft in foreign ajoining sectors (ie. FBSK;FVHA etc) and quite often don't even have flight plans on these aircraft even though they have been filed-welcome to Africa. As a result we have to control the "domestic traffic flow" ourselves. This is done primarily with speed control through area and approach which is I agree not the most efficient method but does prevent alot of holding in peak periods. It's not an exact science but considering the number of aircraft pushed through our airspace in a shift. We at Approach advise Area to give us a specific distance between aircraft from any specific direction (ie. From the South 15 Miles) This they achieve by either vectoring or speeding you up or slowing you down still into the gap where you are needed. Once in the "gap" your speed may be adjusted to keep you in that position. On entering the TMA I now need to sequence you into all of the traffic approaching from the North and East which Area have spaced to the best of their ability, hence the speed change or "vector for spacing". For this to work optimally your height needs to be right or else extra track miles required then yet another vector, which affects the others in the line. Help us bus divers by getting down early!!!
In the States its a case of speed up and slow down up to 6 times once on the ILS...a stage we haven't reached yet and something I can guarantee if we did an equally long topic would be started on this forum!!!:sad:

As for the landing Runway the book says Rwy 03R/21L. Have a go-around whilst landing traffic on 03L and we're suspended until the powers that be finish their investigation (which for the record is not the case with all the traffic in FACT-training traffic may be sent around by the ATC without any further enquiries giving their Tower controller alot more leeway without putting his licence on the line!!!) We try and land as much on 03L as we can...but can you blame the Twr ATC for not being willing to take that chance.

As for GFJ maybe you should restrict your comments to those involving FACT and leave the moving serious volumes of traffic to us at FAJS. Although a few of your points may be valid many of them are WAY out of line. When was the last time you moved over 70 aircraft an hour through your sector. Remember which centre in SA is earing over half of this companies revenue. Try speaking to your fellow ATC's at FAJS and find out the problems from them personally before trying to educate us with your "lessons":ok:

[orgasmotron]

Makeapullup - I am sure that the bad wx does influence delays and traffic fllow. Why then, for the past 10 years, when LVP's in force, there are delays. Or maybe I have just been flying on delay day for the past 10 years. Also, when thunderstorm season, we have to request diversions from clearances to avaiod hazardous wx. The fact that our wx radar penetrates wx, does not mean we follow. Surely the further we fly around wx at speed X, the longer we will occupy your airspace ?

About 3-4 weeks ago, say-again airlines crew enquired on RT why delays when LVP's in force and the reply from ground was "We have to ensure the landing of an aircraft on the Right before we can let the one go on the Left" Now if that does not cause delays in bad wx, I give up. If this was not the correct reason, please enlighten us all.

Goldfish Jack - Right again. High speed descent will maybe save 2 min, with the associated fuel penalty. Higher cruise speed the same. A visual might save 5 min if it is a good one.

One question ? Do the JHB guys get paid more if they handle more traffic ? Or do thay handle more traffice cause they get paid more ?

[makeapullup]

Orgasmo- i think we're saying the same thing. maybe its the way i wrote it. obviously there are way more delays in imc/lvp's. my point is that in vmc we still have a maximum number we can handle (with equip and procedures) so whether it is imc or vmc there will still be delays the only difference is how long.

[ZRH]

Joburg gets paid the most because they push the most traffic!

Actuator
Zurich can be most unhelpfull at times
What's the problem with Zurich boet? Best you dont get me started because there is not enough bandwidth on PPRUNE to explain all the problems here.

[Radar Pete]

Goldfish Jack - Apart from repeating what has been clearly explained I want to clear one point regarding specialisation. This may be practicle at quieter stations but keep in mind that in busy units you need practice at one discipline to perfect it. For a JS ATC to hop between APP and ACC will result in a "Jack of all trades but master of none". Furthermore, I have seen many ACC guys trying to 'help' APP because they have an APP validation only to see the APP guy sink further because the ACC guys plan for APP differs with the APP ATCs own plan. With the dynamics of the JS TMA it is not possible to help out too much as you do not have the full picture i.e. the traffic flowing between units within the TMA. The solution: have procedures that are safe, orderly and expeditious. The biggest problem with the TMA is 7 STARs for 1 RWY. The APP guy does not have a sequencing tool to assist and is already overloaded with tasks. The 15nm sequencing is a step in the right direction but should be through a max of 4 gates into the TMA. Spacing should also be based on RWY occupancy times. If the average time is 3 minutes then extrapolate that into a distance from touchdown and work backwards on 'normal speed reduction' to a point at say 40 or 50nm from the field. I think the JS guys are pushing it a bit at 15nm with 7 STARs. Maybe increase to 20nm or reduce the STARs. The ATC's at JS deserve praise not criticism, they are working beyond there own limits to be as accomadating as possible. ATNS management need to wake up understand that business levels are not based on hourly movements but actual aircraft on frequency. I think the 'limit' is 40 per hour, what a joke. Move 30 a/c in the first 30 mins and 10 the the second. Has a sector load limit been advocated as a legal limit yet? This would have to be based on sector design and manning. For example - FAJS ACCN has a full time exec therefore would have a higher sector loading than ACCS. Similarly single ATC operation has a lower loading factor than ATC plus Exec.. A ballpark figure is not more than 12 on freq. with one ATC and not more than 18 with an exec, further to that never more than 5 holding within your sector. APP would have lower figures due to the smaller airspace. When a sector reaches capacity you shut the door to any more traffic. The adjoining sector then has to hold traffic until his/her sector reaches capacity and so the domino falls. Just a thought??????

Forget INCREPS, slap the ****** in the hold. Everytime he opens his mouth add another hold. See how quickly guys comply and shut up.

Their is no complete answer for JS. The new equipment will go a long way to resolving issues BUT is very dependant on the procedures that go with the equipment. As ZRH intimated and I can confirm with procedures here in the UAE. No system is perfect. The fact of the matter is there are too many a/c in the air. Pilots and operators can scream all they want, when saturation is reached their will be delays. If you are flying in peak times carry enough fuel. If you are flying during the thunderstorm period, carry enough fuel. Simple isn't it!

And as my dear friend Goldfish Jack says.......

Here endeth the lesson!!!!

[The Actuator]

"Slap him in the hold", "Here endeth the lesson", "get used to it",
"your speeds my headings makes no difference to me{"
Jeez guys tone down all the hard words, just a couple of questions to get some perspective and a war is started between the very big boys and the smaller coastal types and a few arrows for your customers.

Why is it hat whenever some legitimate questions are asked about the service the ATC's seem to get defensive. Is it so much harder to work in JNB does one need to be god to do your job or could one perhaps listen to people and try and improve the relationship. Nobody is questioning you ability and for the most part things happen right but we surley have the right to ask when we feel the need maybe not on freq but this seems like a pretty good place to start!!!

take it slow

[Radar Pete]

The Actuator

Yes for a large part you are right. Legitimate questions have their place. This is an excellent forum for that. 99% of the time we work on a good relationship (ATC-Pilot), when the ATC is really busy and his mind is concentrated on various aspects i.e. sequence, speed, descent etc you get one pilot who lacks discipline, respect and situational awareness and starts asking inane questions at the wrong time. Often this breaks an ATC's thought process which he/she needs to build up again. In the part of the world I'm in now we still deal with the same problems. Pilots who don't fly the speeds you ask them etc, this can really play havoc when you are busy but once again for the most part things do run smoothly.

I think that for the most part the JS ATC's have answered the questions pretty well and no they are gods but are a pretty talented bunch. I'm just not sure how long they will manage to hold out with the current siuation. I'm not sure many ATC's at JS will manage 20 years at JS if things do not improve.

ATC/pilot conferences need to take place on an informal level without managers being present. All you guys really need to communicate.

[linuxgal]

Most of these problems would not even occur if the rules were changed, and ATNS management could get their A's into G about improving the procedures. They have a guy out here from the UK who is meant to fix everything and improve capacity but he is not being given free rein.
The 8nm/5nm is an SA thing, ICAO says 5nm/3nm, which is achievable at FAJS in good weather, even before HSTO's are built. Also there have been plans on the table for ages about a third radar 'director' sector, but they just stay on the table. So, capacity stays limited.

The ATC's themselves do about the best they can with their procedures, much of the time their hands are tied.

Having said that, just as there are pilots with BA, so are there ATCs...

While I'm here, a question for GFJ: Area controllers require 10nm separation between a/c, so why on the descent into CPT are we stepped down inch by inch when the guy in front is eg.17nm ahead? Very frustrating and plays havoc with the profile, especially when you aren't allowed to speed up.

[126,7]

linuxgal
Area controllers require 10nm separation between a/c, so why on the descent into CPT are we stepped down inch by inch when the guy in front is eg.17nm ahead?

As far as I know, ATC everywhere in SA works with 5nm. Why CPT works so defensively is a question better answered by GFJ.....Maybe they're scared in CPT:}

[SortieIII]

Have to agree as far as FACT goes! I find myself biting my tongue every time I land there.

Surely there must be a better way than this 'step down 2000ft at a time' method they use? Never seen this used elsewhere. What do FACT ATC's say?

[Goldfish Jack]

Pretty simple actually.

1. 5nm between the aircraft in a TMA with primary radar
2. 3nm in a TMA with primary radar being fed from 2 independent sources
3. 10nm between aircraft en-route with no primary radar
4. 5nm between aircraft en-route with independent primary radar

At Cape Town we only have 1 and 3 - hence our spacing of 10 nm apart.

Then add to it, a magnificent airfield layout and having to land on 19 and turn off at Charlie you need 8 - 10 nm between heavies on final, as they have to come to a complete stop before they can turn off (turn angle is 135degrees).

Likewise with 01 - no E UFN. They have to go all the way to 34 and that includes ALL aircraft except Light singles, so the spacing has to be increased slightly.

The only thing we are scared of is a high speed aircraft not know ing what they are doing!!!!

[JG1]

Well said, the Actuator.

Perhaps the descent speed (and, thus, the point too) should be given on first contact with ATC, after ATC has calculated it to keep optimum spacing? Controllers – as you know, we like ‘perfect’ descents where we go to idle at top of descent and take power at 1000’ kind of thing. We don’t like having to take power either to speed up or to maintain level flight during the descent, especially at lower levels. That’s why it’s so nice to see a controller is really switched on and you get further descent in time to stop you from having to level out during a step descent. If we knew your preferred descent point and speed/rate and it meant no power change and less delays we’d fly it happily.:ok:

Easy with the increps – I’m sure we can file them too. What I have noticed is that whilst when controllers make a boo-boo the pilots involved mostly shrug it off with a laugh, but when the pilots make the boo-boo the controllers (especially the newer ones) get on your case a bit. We know the problems you face and wouldn’t deliberately ignore any instruction. When we screw up, we’re the ones who feel like tits and are eager to make hasty amends. There’s no need to get nasty with each other, we all work in the same place. The other day I asked “speed in the descent?” just to get an idea of how the picture was and I was snapped at that ATC speeds ALWAYS apply in the descent…until of course, ATC tell you otherwise. And they often seem to forget to tell you and then inform you at a later stage. It would be nice if we were told ‘own speeds’ or ‘ATC speeds’ every time we ask for descent.;)

Question for the ATC’s. If the computers are doing the spacing calculations, then could we do away with the different sectors? North, South etc. seeing as the computer will see 360 degrees of radar. Would it just be radio congestion that meant we still needed sectors? In that case a ‘steady-state’ descent would require no controlling other than vectors and a handover so this would relieve the channel, no?:bored:

Clogging the channels with ‘the bigger picture’ – this would only happen if you told every pilot the picture on first contact. We can work it out after we’ve been on frequency a bit, but its nice to know any traffic to affect us, like a slower machine in the queue, when we first join.

What about slow-traffic holding fixes abeam close to the thresholds? The Vans can literally circle a couple of thousand feet from the threshold and be in and landed short and off at Sierra all in a short time, rather than being vectored to fit in with the jet traffic and causing havoc. (If they miss Sierra they can fly to echo):E

High-speed turnoffs. Jeez that would have cost about R95-million … then we wouldn’t have been able to have had an inauguration party….:{

[Radar Pete]

Radar seperation minimas are prescribed in PANS-OPS (Doc 4444) as being a minimum of 5nm. Their is no requirement other than you must have primary and/OR SSR. It is up to the independant states to keep to the ICAO SARPS or increase the sep based on the reliability of the radar and other technical issues. The technical issues are more related to older generation radar facilities and outdated equipment. In view of this and ATNS's SARRIP (South African Radar Replacement Program) for which the user is paying the radar seperation minima in SA should be 5nm wherever radar coverage exists.

Once again I am bewildered at sweeping statements that bare no facts. GFJ if your 4 points are in fact the truth then there are thousands of reductions taking place every minute of the day all over the world. Bottom line is the users are paying for a service for which they are not getting. SSR coverage over the 'golden triangle' is currently sufficient to not only provide 5nm seperation but also reduced seperation on all routes.

Users need to start asking questions. The questions need to be directed at the correct channels. ATNS management and SACAA are 2 places to start. ATC's are merely following the laid down archaic procedures that are forced on them. Go into a restuarant and get a bad meal, do you complain to the manager or waiter???? The SACAA is still the regulator for South African skies. ATNS is the designated manager of those skies. Currently ATNS dictates to the SACAA how to do things as the SACAA lacks the expertise. At the moment users are paying both ATNS and SACAA for a ******* service. The user is ultimately going to pay for the new equipment at JS it will be interesting to see if you guys are going to get value for money.

[EltorroLoco]

Greetings JG1

Methinx (happily), you may be overestimating our skills and/or the equipment we work on.

I have no idea what the preferred speed/point for descent is for every a/c, you can only say from the feeling in yr butt that someone is 2 high / 2 fast. The only thing we need is everyone 2 b doing similar speeds when vectoring - i.e. 250kt inside 40nm and 210kt later. This makes 80% of the inbounds virtually the same for us.

You also need 2 remember that, to save frequency space, if nothing is said - it is expected that you do what is on the SID/STAR. If everyone was "Just asking", it could get out of hand quite fast.

As to the PCs holding next to the field, that's actually what we do, it's just not a published procedure. They r generally not held at the TMA beacons, but rather orbited on base if there is no space. This is done since the locals r quite adept @ ramming them in at max speed - they r as fast, if not faster than the jets inside 15nm!

Also, I'm not sure what BS the press releases have been saying, but there are no computer calculated anythings! That would be part of the SAAATS system, which will come on line in stages (read wait a long time for any benefits). All the decisions about sequencing, speed etc are purely educated guesses - and I must admit some blokes r pretty good @ it!

Lastly, methinx this kind of thread is gr8 for all aviation professionals using FAJS. We seldom get to yak to the tube drivers 2 get there points of view on our performance - and vice-versa.

So, keep the questions and opinions coming.

[Paul2004]

Well done you guys in FAJS. You're doing a stirling job with blunt tools. I've sat and watched you magicians at work and in comparison FACT is a holiday camp. I would not for one moment coment or criticise on a sector I have not had the balls to validate on. Keep up the good work and good luck for the equipment switchover.

[Paul2004]

To get back to your original question, you're sped up to get you into a position so you can fly the approach at normal speeds. Acc will pre-seq you and the App will blend you with TMA tfc. It has nothing to do with specialisation. Secondly, in Cpt you're decended above tfc 17 nm ahead of you because we still have pilots that won't monitor their tcas' and will do their best to pass the tfc ahead even if it means flying into the back of them.

[The Actuator]

Try to post a little more helpfull comments than saying you still have pilots who don't know how to use their TCAS or will try to fly into something. Clearly your knowledge of flying needs a little brushing up.

We don't expect the controller to know when we want to descent or what speed we would like to fly but we would love to know, WHEN he/she WANTS us to descent and, WHAT speed he/she WANTS us to fly - EARLY!!
As I said it all goes about being able to plan so that I can make the ride as smooth as possible for my customers, and with as little typing on the FMC and as little switching on the FMA as possible. This allows us the time to keep our eyes on the TCAS (so that I don't fly into anyone else)as well being able to be heads up, and free to concentrate on listening to and answering the radio so we don't join the gang of Say Again Airlines whilst building up a mental picture of other aircraft, weather and any other factors that could operationally affect my flight.

[REAL ORCA]

Paul2004

Some aircraft, and they are in the majority for the company I work for, only indicate conflicting traffic within15NM around and within 7000'.

About flying into a/c ahead, we are all cleared on arrivals into FACT with speed restriction at specific points. If one a/c is catching up with the one ahead, and he has not reached the decel points, it is your job as ATC to slow him down or speed the other one up! Just maybe the guy in the back is not aware of the closing speed.

You are the controller- now control boet! :ok:

[linuxgal]

Just to clarify my post about the descents into CPT: Sure, you need spacing on final after heavies, and to make room for departures. We all understand that. When CPT has a bunch of 737's inbound from JNB in a trail they do issue descent speeds well ahead of time. When I'm at the back of the trail, I've got the slowest speed, so I can't catch the guy ahead, certainly not if he's more than 10nm. So why can't I just have the luxury of a slow, uninterrupted descent? The spacing on final approach and a step descent 70nm out are not really related.

Some ATCs ask why we do not just use speedbrake to fix the profile, when we go high caused by step descents. Well, it's less effective at low speeds (250kt) and it causes passenger discomfort. So come on guys, just let us down!

[Radar Pete]

Paul2004

To rely on pilots to monitor their tcas is just not right. We each need to do our own job and stop meddling in others. Pilots fly and ATC's manage the airspace.

As a basic rule ATC's go for the 3 degree rule plus some. It is a thumb suck but gives the ATC something to work on. If you want the a/c to fly slower than a 'normal' profile force the a/c down early - low and slow or hot and high. Generally do not keep a/c above the 3 degree profile. These are general rules that ATC's use and are by no means a hard and fast rule.

linuxgal

You got it right. That's how we do it in the UAE. The a/c that is last is pushed down early with speed reductions to create the extra space required to fit a/c in between. We work on a principle of 'Radar backed by procedural' which gives us greater flexibility than JS as they work 'procedural backed by radar'. It may not mean much to pilots but the gist of this is that in the UAE we sequence 10nm in trail and hand off to the next sector (Dubai or Abu Dhabi) regardless of level but in the correct sequence, i.e. number one is passing FL200 and the number 2 is passing FL150. In FAJS they sequence 15nm in trail but have to ensure traffic is procedurally seperated when handed to APP, i.e. number 1 is descended to FL160 and number 2 is only descended to FL 160 when number 1 is clear of FL160 (passing FL150). This does have a knock on affect when you are trying to keep number 6 in the sequence slow AND still need to get his height off.

I hope this gives you guys a little insight in what is required. I do stand to be corrected on the FAJS procedural backed by radar, but when I was last there that was the status quo. Generally speaking, SA can upgrade the procedures as they should have their redundancy levels by now. Once again the paying customer needs to ask these questions as they are the ones paying. The SA radar replacement program (SARRIP) should be close to finalisation giving triple radar coverage over the 'Golden Triangle" (join JS,CT and DN). Therein are the redundancy levels required to improve procedures. Question is will ATNS management modernise procedures? I feel they could have started this at least 3 years ago when De Aar Radar and Potgietersrus came on line.

[linuxgal]

PILOT/ATC SHINDIG - 27 MAY at HI-FLYERZ, Boksburg

Based on the discussions on this thread, it is overdue to have a social get-together. I have taken matters into my own hands and arranged a PILOT/ATC SHINDIG at HI-FLYERZ AVIATION PUB, 27 MAY, 5PM ONWARDS.

Hi-Flyerz management is kindly donating platters of snacks and possibly a nice surprise in the beverage department.

I'll send out notices to my contacts at ATC and the other airlines in a short while as an invite to the airline community. In the meantime spread the word! In the past these bashes have always led to just a little bit of greater understanding and a better relationship between pilots and ATC's.

[AfricanSkies]

any ATCO's noticed the F-28's extreme versatility in the descent?:E

[27Foxtrot]

I personally think all the radar and ATC principals need adjusting.

We are using stuff based on the DC3 still being high tech.

27F

[Paul2004]

Okay, okay. I apologise most humbly about the tcas statement. You do have to admit though that there are some renegades who don't try create a mental picture of what's happening around them. They're intent on being number one, in fact it's there right to be number one. Appreciate please that this is a great source of frustration for ATC. Luckily they are by far in the minority. I'm all for cooperation and team work and believe that we're all here to make each others life easier and less stress free. As far as I understand most tcas see further than 15 nm. Is this correct?

[REAL ORCA]

"less stress free"?????:E

[B Sousa]

Linuxgal writes:"Hi-Flyerz management is kindly donating platters of snacks and possibly a nice surprise in the beverage department. "


Here I am again missing a South African party and I dont even know what this thread is about......

[126,7]

he he he Bert, dont worry. It doesn't affect helicopter ops unless your shooting an ILS at the big JS and are TCAS equiped and doing speeds in excess of mach critical:}

[ZSLHF]

G'day all.

Question for ATC. If I am flying a PC at FL150 (for example) inbound to Lanseria, why are we asked to descent to FL130 by xx miles JSV almost every time?

Hope to meet you guys/gals on the 27th...

[EltorroLoco]

Hooray Linuxgal!

Good on ya! Its about time 4 a chindig with all the diferent hooligans 2getha. Will c u guys there.

p.s. I'll b the drunk, obnoxious one - now that doesn't help eh?:yuk:

[makeapullup]

hey there zslhf- i think the simple answer is that app climb traffic out to FL150 ,(acc descend to FL160), you coming in at FL150 versus o/bound FL150 radio failure not a good idea. I colud be wrong but i think thats why.