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View Full Version : Israel v/s the Palestiniens - a UN peacekeeping force should be sent in?


exeng
2nd Dec 2001, 07:03
I believe the time is right to attempt to sort this diabolical mess out. Clearly neither side is able to act in a rational and responsible manner.


Regards
exeng

I. M. Esperto
2nd Dec 2001, 21:02
It was tried in Lebanon and failed miserably.

The Shatilla Massacre was done right under the UN troops noses.

Sharon may go before a Belgian court for this one.

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: I. M. Esperto ]

PakoSpain
3rd Dec 2001, 02:16
No solution until Israel provides a piece of land for Palestinian to survive.
Regards
PS

Blacksheep
3rd Dec 2001, 07:49
The United Nations started the whole problem in the first place, how on earth can we expect them to sort it out? Founding an alien colony in someone else's territory always has a monstrous outcome, usually for the natives. (The United States in fact is a good example, where 'General' Armstrong Custer is a folk hero. The United Kingdom is another - whatever happened to the Britons?)

No, the U.N. isn't going to sort the situation out, it will fester on for centuries. Certainly until the current superpower inevitably declines and, as always, a new one with different priorities emerges.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

G.Khan
3rd Dec 2001, 13:19
"Alien colony in someone elses territory" - interesting thought, since King David goes back about three thousand years and Mohammed about half that who are the "aliens"?

Superpilot
3rd Dec 2001, 22:06
"interesting thought, since King David goes back about three thousand years and Mohammed about half that who are the "aliens"?

Yes but David was a Submitter (a Muslim), which does not confilct with being a Jew (as in a member of the Jew race). Israel (according to the Quran) is for all the people of the book but some aren't willing to share. The only basis for this division is on grounds of race which has nothing to do with religion, yet again the name of religion hijacked for political motives!!!

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

MarkD
4th Dec 2001, 05:42
UNIFIL may not have worked in Leb., but if they had some AHs and some CVs off the coast to provide some overhead firepower it might have made some people see sense. Instead Hezbollah were firing Katyushas into Israel and Israel pounding away with F-16s, and there was ****** all the UNIFIL infantry battalions, where an Irish one has just left after 20 years rotation, were going to be able to do about it.

Any UN force, anywhere, should have overwhelming force behind it, as when the Yanks go to war these days.

traveler
4th Dec 2001, 06:28
Is there really any other solution ?

Or maybe more acurate; is there a solution ?
Besides making a parking lot out of it.

(P.S. the court is not in Belgium)

Blacksheep
4th Dec 2001, 08:51
Superpilot,

If King David goes back three thousand years and the Romans destroyed the temple and initiated the diaspora two thousand years ago, where does a Jewish claim to sovereignty lie? A Muslim state existed in Palestine at the time of the crusades back in the eleventh century so the Palestinian people seem to have at least as valid a claim to a homeland there than, say, the US has to North America. Do also bear in mind that around a quarter of the Palestinians aren't Muslims. For example the Black September organization was headed by a Maronite although this was always cited in the west as an Islamic terrorist group.

The whole thing will only end when the Israelis concede that the Palestinians also have the right to a peaceful and prosperous existence and allow them a proper place to live. Compare the territory that was allocated to the Zionist movement by United Nations resolution in order to found the State of Israel with what they actually took in 1949. The stated objective of major Israeli political parties (so much so, that it may be considered a State objective) is the possession of the whole of the Biblical Jewish State. Since much of that area remains the traditional homeland of many thousands of Palestinian Arabs, where do the Zionist parties intend them to go? Israel continues the colonisation drive in much the same way that the United States pushed westward into native American territory. Unless and until the Israeli people are willing to share, the conflict will never end.

Look at it another way, will the U.S. goverment ever hand North America back to the aboriginal people - the "Indians" as we call them? It is indeed ironical that the USA sponsored the foundation of Israel with the intention of creating stability in the Middle East.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Doctor Cruces
5th Dec 2001, 00:54
Nothing is going to get better until Israel stops acting like the school bully.

They are just a bunch of terrorists with more and better equipment.

Until they stop responding to stone throwing with F-15 raids etc the Palestinians will continue to react acordingly.

It is a closed circle and until someone is prepared to break it (like John Major and Ireland....Yaeh yeah, not perfect but a start-OK?) there will be no progress at all.

Doc C.

Squawk 8888
5th Dec 2001, 01:09
Nothing is going to get better until Israel stops acting like the school bully. They are just a bunch of terrorists with more and better equipment.Well, if someone's acting like a "school bully" it would be the arab leaders who goaded the Palestinians into fighting long before Israel even started. It was the Saudis who agreed to let the Jews into Palestine after WWI, and for the next couple of decades the Jews & Palestinians got along rather well. There were some Palestinian troublemakers who harassed the Jews but they were more like local crooks than any real threat. When the UN voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, most of the locals could live with it but then the grand mufti and several members of the muslim clergy called for the "extermination" (not mere expulsion) of all Jews in Palestine. So forget the propaganda about the evils of the Israelis and the yanks- if you want someone to blame for the misery the Palestinian people are going through, look no further than the Saudis and the muslim clergy.

HugMonster
5th Dec 2001, 04:08
Well, it seems to me that Arafat is caught between a rock and a hard place. If he arrests the extremists, he upsets the Palestinians. If he doesn't, he upsets the Israelis.

Given that Arafat doesn't particularly want to be seen to be pally with Sharon (or Gary, or Tracey :D) and that contact between them must be limited to the covert, does Sharon really think that what he's done over the past two days will stop Hammas' suicide bombers? Does he think that he's helping the situtation? I think Sharon's best bet is rather to help Arafat, to give him whatever assistance he needs, to be seen to play the moderate...

One thing that occurs to me that hasn't yet been tried is Israel complying with UN Resolutions... :rolleyes:

PakoSpain
5th Dec 2001, 04:28
As far as I know, politic discusses are prohibited by "the despot", and this one is in this way.
Spanish say. "What that cantīt be, can`t be, and besides itīs impossible"

Blacksheep
5th Dec 2001, 05:45
S'funny Squawk, I've been back to the history books but can find no references to the Saudis being involved in the Balfour declaration. And what are "Muslim Clergy" when they're all there? A Mufti is a chief judge not a clergyman.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Squawk 8888
5th Dec 2001, 05:46
One thing that occurs to me that hasn't yet been tried is Israel complying with UN Resolutions...They tried that in the past, too many civilians died as a result. They gave Arafat damn near everything he asked for, but that wasn't good enough for the extremists. The root of the problem is that most of the elements still fighting aren't interested in a Palestinian homeland; their stated goal has been the annihilation of the Israeli people. It would be akin to the Czechs vowing to annihilate the Germans living in the Sudetenland, or the Ukrainians wanting to get rid of the ethnic Russians who've lived in their country for generations. As long as the extremists, most of whom are outside agitators and not Palestinian, refuse to acknowledge the Isrealis' right to live the bloodshed will continue.

It seems you may be onto something with the idea of covert aid to Arafat (to keep him in charge while he reins in the terrorists), probably the only chance now.

C4
5th Dec 2001, 19:51
There is no peaceful answer...
Just Nuke the whole area and then there will be nothing left to fight about........

____________________________
Smile awhile < :)

Velvet
6th Dec 2001, 02:49
Compared to the Palestine Conflict, the British / Irish troubles are just a blip on the screen. One has to remember that the Palestinians (Philistines) and the Israelis (Hebrews) have been mortal enemies since Biblical times. I think they were fighting over the same piece of land too. They are not going to stop now, just because other countries urge restraint or think this a futile conflict. Each side seems locked into ‘winning’ at any cost. What a pity the Israelis, have forgotten the Resolution passed by the Zionist Organisation at Carlsbad in 1921 -
expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims "the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development."

In the summer of 1967, the Arab states unanimously adopted their famous "three nos": no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel concerning any Palestinian territory. This has set the tone of dealings between Arabs and Israelis, the insistence by Arabs that anyone who had connection with Israel whatsoever was anathema and banned from Arab territories. To the ridiculous point where one required two passports if one visited Israel and any Middle East country. Even a minor infraction such as packing in the shape of 6-pointed stars would result in the goods being confiscated and probably destroyed. We lived with it, but never understood the reasoning behind it, for it achieved nothing, except to underline the Arabic need to deny the existence of the Jews. It is not just ‘extremists’ who want to get rid of Israel and Jews – it is a quite normal acceptance by ordinary Arabs.

Covert aid to Arafat – it was quite common for even moderate Arab states to channel funds to the PLO and Arafat throughout the 70s and 80s - nothing covert about it.

The Palestinians feel their traditional way of life is threatened, and that they will be dispossessed by the invading Israelis. The Israelis feel surrounded by Arabic enemies –so they have become defensive and hard-line; wanting to crush all resistance to their rule, needing to prove their strength by killing (literally) any opposition. They might also remember their own past, when the Stern Gang was synonymous with terrorism, including assassinations, bombings etc. Like the IRA in Ireland, some of their leaders went on to become respected members of the Government. Stern, surprisingly regarded Hitler as less of an enemy than Britain. His stated aim was to create a ‘Greater Israel’ which would reclaim all the Jewish lands occupied in biblical times.

So instead of trying to live together in harmony, building a prosperous and peaceful country, they are still enemies distrusting and resentful of their neighbour. Strange they should spring from the same common ancestor and yet consider each the alien in their midst. For centuries the Jews were not only more welcome, but safer when residing in Arabic nations than in the west where they were frequently persecuted and massacred.

In 1917 the Balfour Declaration stated "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

This was taken at the time by many Arabs as an intent to hand over the land known as Palestine to the Jews, who were seen then and now as having a disproportionate influence with Western Allies. Not unjustified as the Balfour Agreement was considered, at least in part, as a reward for Weizmann’s (a leading Zionist) discovery of an artificial substitute for acetone (which was in very short supply) – a vital component in the manufacture of ammunition during WW1. This caused tension which has not dissipated in the ensuing decades.

Blacksheep – Saudi was a newly created State in 1917 – but they were involved even if they now prefer to forget this


Agreement between Emir Feisal and Dr Weizmann (signed in England by both parties) dated 3 January 1919
His Royal Highness the Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr.Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realizing that the surest means of working out the consummation of their natural aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following Articles:

The relevant articles III and IV as follows
Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government's Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917.

Article IV
All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

By 1922 there was a thriving community of 80,000 Jews in Palestine, and despite their stated aim of wishing to create a ‘Jewish Homeland’ in Palestine had no apparent wish to impose their culture, political, religious or nationality on the inhabitants of Palestine. They felt that as they had a historical connection with the region, they would be a central land which internationally based Jews could relate to.

Since then successive waves of Jews have settled in Palestine; 200,000 in the first few years after the 1948 Inauguration of the State of Israel. Since 1951 any Jew is automatically given citizenship of Israel. Thousands have flooded in from around the world; in the last decade over 1 million Russian Jews emigrated to Israel – they all have to go somewhere and so they encroach and spread.

It is no wonder that the Jewish Nation feels under threat – In 1948 the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the newly created State of Israel, which resulted in a war which lasted 15 months and resulted in the deaths of thousands of Israelis and Arabs. Further attacks only resulted in Israel building up its forces, and again had to defend itself during 1967 from a joint Egyptian / Syrian/ Jordanian front, now known as the 6-days War, resulting in Israel gaining more land and also taking control of Jerusalem. In 1973, Egypt once again combined with Syria to attack Israel, though Israel once again managed to turn the tide and eventually Egypt and Syria accepted a cease-fire.

During and subsequent to the 25 years after the creation of the Israeli ‘homeland’ they faced other attacks, not sufficient to call them wars, but enough for them to keep ‘battle- ready’.

Blaming the Palestinians for the past is convenient, and somewhat though not wholly justified. They are not to blame for all the past ills visited on Israel and the Jews. The responses from both Palestine and Israel are almost conditioned – though with each attack, each side feels more entrenched and justified with their response – which currently is getting more extreme and bloody. Neither side can see beyond the ‘crimes’ perpetrated by the other. Both have culpability and responsibility for the current situation – which has been exacerbated by intransigence in other Arab Nations and support of Israel by Western Interests.

‘They’ are the enemy, ‘they’ are to blame, ‘they’ have the blood of innocents on their hands, ‘we’ will never rest until ‘they’ are destroyed. ‘They’ are the ‘others’ never ‘us’.

Will this conflict ever be resolved, will the Jews and Muslims ever be friends? They share a common heritage, much of their language, religion and culture is almost identical. Or will they in their zeal to be the only inheritors of that blood-stained land end up destroying the very thing they most value.

Conky Joe
6th Dec 2001, 17:52
Velvet

Well done on your research. I'm sure many feel at times that we know a little and sometimes a lot more than our fellows on the Arab/Israeli conflict and the result is much of this thread and others that have gone before. Some people are passionate and genuine in their beliefs, some are just there for the stirring. There is conscious and unconscious bias and often it is very difficult if not impossible to be impartial when discussing the situation - I'm certainly guilty of this, but of course I'm in the right! :D

Danny, I don't know if you are away or your despot hat is in for repair - either way thank you for letting this thread run a bit longer than you might otherwise have done. The above post is perhaps the most educated contribution given so far. While I can understand your wishing to clear the bandwidth of the ranting that politics and religion are a magnet to, sometimes, in the muddle of honest but blinkered outpourings and the usual ill-thought out snarls, there is something like the above that we can learn from.

CJ

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Conky Joe ]

Capt PPRuNe
6th Dec 2001, 23:39
Velvet, thank you for your concise and well written piece. Unbiased and factual with enough history (recent) to make valid points for both sides fo the argument.

I have been away in a dark moving box for a few days and have only now just managed to notice this thread which was started blatantly against the notice that is posted at the top of this forum. It will never cease to amaze me that there are individuals who have the intellect of an anal orifice and a few of the posts on this thread only prove the point.

This thread is now going to be closed in order to keep the aims of this website more or less defined and anyone wanting to continue the debate can find soem other more specific website for their discussions or ignorant rants as the case may be. I do claim a certain bias having family connections with the region, having lived there and served in the military there. Anyone not agreeing with my decision can take their complaint to wherever they like as long as it is not on PPRuNe.

Once again, thank you to the few who have at least kept the debate to sensible points and as far as the others are concerned... I'd better stick to my own rules.