737 ratings - THIS p!sses me right off

[Luke SkyToddler]

Have a look at this thread on D&G

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125760

For those of you who can't be bothered to read it all the story is, that the Ansett Australia sim centre are flogging a 737 -3 -4 -500 series rating, complete with full ground school, all the CBT, 20 hours fixed base sim, 36 hours full flight sim, instructor and all manuals, for $20,000 Aus dollars.

On XE.com this morning, that translates into £8329.87.

This is a totally comprehensive rating issued by some of the most experienced and professional airline sim instructors in the world, and it is fully accepted and recognized by the Aus / NZ / several other top quality first world Civil Aviation Authorities.

Meanwhile my flatmate a couple of weeks ago signed up a £23,000 loan contract with HSBC as the price of getting into Easyjet via the CTC TRSS type rating scheme.

That's a total difference of £14,671 ... or to put it another way the CTC package is 276% more expensive than the Ansett one.

The supreme irony is that, apart from the IR test and jet flying, the Easyjet / CTC cadets do all their training in New Zealand anyway :rolleyes:

So my gripes are

1. Other than blatant money grabbing and protectionism of their dodgy drink-at-the-same-gentleman's-club-in-Piccadilly, nest-feathering JAA-sim-type-rating-issuing mates, what possible flimsy grounds do the JAA / UKCAA have, to deny me the right to fly in Europe on a rating issued by the Aussie CAA?

2. Why does sim training in Europe cost so bloody much? If it was actually the aircraft I would understand, cost of fuel and landing fees and all that ... but the DOC's of a simulator can in no way justify the price difference. I'm sure the Ansett sim instructors are on very good money for what they do, just like the UK ones.

It makes my blood boil to be honest :mad:

There must surely be some European human rights act / restraint of free trade law or something, that we could all sue the CAA under?

[trainer too 2]

Just a few pointers:
1) what does the CAA has to do with it?
2) you can buy a car for gbp 9999 and gbp 23999 does this mean that the second one is ripping you off? Or is it just different specs??
3) Is line training and the cost of the TRI or TRE included
4) Didn't this nice outfit go bust and is it trying to buy market share???

So all together grow up! :rolleyes:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Trainer :

1. The CAA are at the very centre of it, because they are the ones who passed this ridiculous law that forbids me from flying in the UK on a non-JAA issued type rating without 500 hours on type.

2. It's a Boeing 737 rating, i.e. it's an identical product. In fact it's probably a higher standard of product than several other JAA-approved TRTOs I could think of.

3. TRI/TRE yes, line training no. As you would know, if you'd actually bothered to read the thread I was referring to.

4. They're a stand alone company staffed by the sim instructors and using the equipment of the former Ansett Australia. Sort of like the Pan Am academy in the USA. And yes, this price represents about a 10 - 15% discount on their opposition. If you were to go to Qantas, you might have to spend, ooohhh, maybe £9,000 instead of £8,000.

However you'd still pay a good 65% less than you are paying here in the UK. Which is kind of my point.

I'm trying to raise a serious issue here, which is the fact that all British pilots who want to buy jet type ratings are getting ripped off by at least 10, and in some cases closer to 20,000 pounds, for the true value of the ratings in Oz or North America, for no reason other than this silly anomaly in JAA law. And I think something needs to be done about it.

I'm not going to bite back at you but please let's not let this degenerate into flame warfare and "why don't you all grow up" kind of stuff, before it's even got to post #3 ...

[Arrowhead]

Luke...

1) Its not identical cos its not JAA (letters, not value, I know...)
2) Everything is cheaper down under, including people
3) Fixed base 737 sims are rare in Europe (check out this weeks Flight Intl). The JAR TR will be 50 hrs+ on a full class D sim - this is actually the main difference.

I wont tell you to grow up, but I think you may be "tired and emotional" perhaps.... cos you probably know all of the above, and being a wannabee you know life is not fair already :D

p.s. how did your mate get on the ESY TRSS/CTC scheme. How many hours, when did he go for interviews, etc......

[G-LOST]

I don't think Luke is still a wannabe? And I think his point is valid. Having flown extensively downunder and now in the UK I would agree that the prices here are disgusting at all levels of aviation. Which is quite simply his point. I know for a fact that CTC for one are making a relative killing. Don't ask how I know, but I do. And they're not the only ones. I am bonded for £15k for a type rating that cost the company many thousands less, but they simply plucked a figure from the sky and as I needed a job at the time I signed up. Mind you, the detail and mention of the actual sums never arrived with the contract until some time after I'd started training, having since packed in my old job, etc etc. So I may just dispute the sum if I ever decide to leave b4 the time is up.

LOST

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Sorry but if you are willing to buy your own rating then I'd say you only deserve what you get.
Don't want to get "ripped off" then don't buy one ! A philosophy which worked just fine for me hence a very uncompromising one ;)

More on the financial side though, workforce (therefore income) is cheaper in many other countries than European ones.
This also applies to land (such as the one needed to build a sim centre) and more.
So clearly, it is probably normal that Aussies/Kiwis type ratings are cheaper than Euro ones.

I am bonded for £15k for a type rating that cost the company many thousands

It seems like there is no relation between the type of aircraft you get rated on and the bond you are one.

For example I was bonded on a Cessna Caravan for £7500 and I am now bonded for £15000 on the 757.
If you go by weight, passengers number, A/C price tag or whatever else the 208 should have been, logically, 50 times cheaper.
Of course it doesn'y work like that maybe because of the following.
Ground Instructors cost money (fairly similar prices between a 208 instructor and 75)
A sim remains a sim.... A very expensive piece of kit with plenty of maintenance to be assured.
Flight/Sim Instructors again are professional who want to make a decent living.

Probably not quite the only reasons why prices are so close but perhaps the beginning of an exponation.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well thank you G-LOST ... for a moment there I thought I was going to be an army of one :(

Anyway I still think some of you have missed the point ...

The sim operators will of course set the price for their products as high as the market will accept, that's a basic facet of successful business.

My issue is with that one little line in LASORS section F 9.1.

The problem is that pay-for-a-type-rating has crept in over the last two or three years kind of like the MCC did 5 years ago, to the point where it is now so prevalent that those of us who haven't got the glamour rating of the moment are at a serious disadvantage.

This is without a doubt the biggest and hottest issue facing not just wannabes but anyone who's in the job market at the moment, including several-thousand-hour types like myself who are sick of seeing 200 hour type rated people getting preferential treatment, how can we justify throwing £20something grand at some speculative type rating with no promise of a job at the end?

If we can't get rid of pay-for-a-type-rating then I at least want the ability to go buy that rating at a fair price on the global market.

Whenever a pen pusher is tackled on this issue they invariably start making uppity statements about 'JAA standardisation' or start to demonstrate euro-paranoia about 'quality of training' in such benighted states as Australia, the USA or Canada ... can they can at least explain to me then why should I not be allowed to train abroad and sit a JAA LST at the end of it to prove my competence ... like I can do with the CPL and IR already?

There isn't even the option ... it's just a bare faced "500 hours flying experience as pilot on type" before they will even countenance the possibility of endorsing a non-JAA issued type rating. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

I would seriously love to see someone challenge them in court over it ... hell I'd probably even toss a couple of grand towards the fighting fund ... we'd all be up for saving 5 times that if we could get that rule overturned :ok:

( Arrowhead : since you asked, my flatmate had 4000 hours TT, 2000 turboprop command, when he was called for the TRSS interview. Everyone on his course had around that kind of experience level. )

[Daysleeper]

so your mate is being ripped off by EZY on the TRSS. what did you (or he) expect? Its among the worst deals our there :confused:

[Arrowhead]

FYI if you ring up BAFT or Alteon or GE or CAE or AeroMadrid or whoever (trust me, I have) they all charge about £15-17k + £5k for the base check (6 circuits).

So the prices mentioned in this thread are in line with other European TR agencies. Looks to me like ESY are not charging you for the base check or the line training costs.

Yes, more expensive than down under. But no, does not look like they are not making a profit on you...

[trainer too 2]

And I think most TRTO's are loss making eventhough the are ripping people of... Gecat has been on the market for years but no takers... wonder why... because they are soooooo profitable....:suspect:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just a point of Law - you can only be bonded for the amount that your training actually costed.

Any agreement you signed for any arbritrary figure will be struck down by a court if your training actually cost less. The burden of proof is on the employer.

Cheers

WWW

[StudentInDebt]

Luke, don't start believing that you are in some way disadvantaged by not having a type rating, it makes very little difference to you employment prospects and if anything reduces them. Once the 200 hour golden spoon boys (who are the vast majority of those choosing to fund their own type ratings without a contract of employment) work this out we will start to see a return to the employer funded type rating in the low-cost market in the UK.

Like AMEX, I wasn't even tempted to look at paying for my own type rating (or MCC for that matter) and I am now flying jets for one of the best operators in the country. Yes, it took a while (3 years) to get the job but here I am now. What is laughable is that should I wish to break my bond and join Easyjet I would still have to pay (or agree to pay) to get on the TRSSSssssssss.

As regard to your complaint about the transferability of type ratings, cpls, ppls etc, errr thats the CAA - I thought you'd been in the UK long enough to know what they are like :D

[abfgh]

Are you sure WWW???
What about if I leave training after one week, will I be liable for the whole signed bond?

[Polish Erek]

If we need work we may need to pay as this is only way to get job right seat jet.

Low fares airlines are now looking and giving seminars over in europe as people who pay for type rating are not here in the UK as much as they need, but many are in europe I think.

Erek

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes I am quite sure. They can write £100,000 bond in the contract BUT if they only actually spent £10,000 then that is all you have to pay them.

Even then as a creditor you can write to them stating at what rate you can afford to pay them back - say £50 a month for many years. There is little in law they can do to compel a lump sum or any increased rate or repayment.

Cheers

WWW

[RVR800]

JAR regulations serve as a mechanism for job protection.

All this nonsence about ICAO/FAA validated pilots being inferior is just a smokescreen for that mechanism

Ask the hundreds of pilots that fly legally in EU airspace with FAA licences if they think they are less safe.

The only thing that separates them from a UK pilot is that the UK pilot is being ripped off......

[Sheep Guts]

Luke ,
Mate come to OZ. The Sun shines and its actually warm outside, not every second accent is Eastern European, and we dont have Chewing gum every 2 inches on the footpaths either :yuk: .

Only kidding fellas. I do agree though, the course your talking of is cheaper so is ETAs Endoresment Training Australias, same cost for 36 hrs in the ex Ansett sim plus addition 12 hours in a QANTAS 737-800 sim for an NG Rating. Good traininers infact some current Training Captains for Virgin Blue, total course cost I heard last time was $25,500.00 AUD oz dollars. Not bad when you think about it. Full NG rating, 48 hrs in sim (invaluable), makes good sense.Better than the US course, because they use a standard 26 hour syllabus then charge like wounded bulls for every hour after. All that time in sim may sound like a waste of time to some but if you havent any idea how to use an FMS or FMC its a God send.

But being fair on the UK institutions that give similair service, arent they paying alot more higher infrastructure costs and utilities costs? Surely that must be the inherant reason the same reason a Big Mac Meal in London will set you back 4-5 quid , am I right?

Sheep