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VFE
8th Apr 2004, 20:07
Hi folks,

Been wondering amid all this talk of terrorism associated with the Muslim faith that perhaps Muslims are becoming feared by non Muslims. I am not too sure what to make of it all really. I think that we should not alter our perception of a certain faith and it's followers purely because some extremists have taken things too far but other times I wonder.

The other night on a BBC documentary British Muslims stated, amongst other things, their views on terrorism and the 911 attacks. There was one cleric who was preaching to followers in a British mosque that what happened in New York was simply an act of war comparable to the allied invasion of Iraq. I don't wanna get into a debate on that in particular but there were some (young) British Muslims who claimed they saw martyrdom as an ambition and to not ultimately succeed in becoming a martyr before they died would be a disappointment. I found it hard to understand how someone can stand in a mosque in this country and espouse such views to an audience without being arrested for inciting terrorism. The thicko's in the Muslim communities will be drawn to their dark side just as the thicko's in other communities will be drawn to the likes of the BNP in counter attack, right?

In the news we hear of anti-terrorism arrests involving planned attacks and the detainee's all appear to be of the Muslim faith. We often hear few outspoken Muslims condemning the terrorism thing but the silence from many is rather deafening. Is it not suprising that most people consider all Muslims to be the same? There is a definate dress code so obviously some people see this style of dress and do not realise that all people are different. I guess if you have a uniform then it's understandable that people jump to conclusions like this, no? Now this is the part where I begin to hate myself. You see, I am a live and let live merchant. If nobody bothers me, I won't bother them. But this rising issue of terrorism is really begining to become a reality in this country and with people like the mayor of London telling us that an attack is inevitable it is difficult to keep a fresh mind and be tollerant of all those people who appear to be worshipping the same Gods as those who blatantly murder civilians on trains and in office buildings. Where do we draw a line? Are we about to see a hate campaign comparable to the Jewish genocide of WWII but with Muslims? My mind wonders.....

There must be an undercurrent of hate amongst non Muslims in this country if you ask me. The fact that the Muslim world appears to be rather reticent to unanomously condemn the terroist attacks says alot and unfortunately my belief is that pretty soon this will boil over into civil unrest here in the UK. What do you all think? I know what certain PPRuNers will think but I am interested in all views. I am on the fence as to how to remedy this impending stage of uncertainty in our history. Are people secretly begining to despise and fear Muslims and is the steathly threat of terrorism from the extreme wing likely to lead to some kind of civil unrest here? With far right parties such as the BNP waiting in the wings and no middle party anymore, are we heading down a dark path that could ultimately backfire on the entire Muslim faith?

What is it all leading to?

VFE.

DeepC
8th Apr 2004, 20:16
are we heading down a dark path that could ultimately backfire on the entire Muslim faith?

Yes, I think it has already started to backfire on the Muslim faith. The 'man on the clapham omnibus' cannot/ will not differentiate between Muslims of moderate or fundamentalist persuasions unless they clearly differentiate themselves by openly showing that they do not believe in the violence and terrorism of the other party.

DeepC

X-QUORK
8th Apr 2004, 20:33
Interesting post VFE, but one that I fear might end up being scrubbed if we're not all VERY careful about our responses.

The same question has been on my mind quite a lot recently, how do the non-Muslim British population really feel about British Muslim citizens? I think I'm also pretty much a live and let live kind of person, and without being too "right-on" I would consider myself to be reasonably centre-ist politically (as I think most of us Brits are...with a bit of left and right here and there as it suits us).

I would say that it's unlikely we'll ever see any kind of backlash against any given section of society in the UK - at least not in the sense of the former Yugoslavia or Rwanda.... I just don't think we have the right ingredients for such an extreme event, or that kind of mentality. However, I think it's quite possible that unless the UK Muslim religious and community leaders become much more vocal in their denouncing Muslim terrorist actions - then there's a possibility that over a period of time there will become a strong under-lying resentment towards Muslims from non-Muslims. It's probably fair to say that there already is some resentment from the more right of centre citizens of this Isle, but if things carry on this way for much longer I fear this could extend to the more liberal thinking folks aswell.

I want to be able to judge individuals on individual merits, not castigate a whole section of society because of their religious beliefs.... but if that section of society seem to be tacitly agreeing with the abhorrent acts of terrorism we see daily on the TV and in the papers...well, it makes you think...

tony draper
8th Apr 2004, 20:36
I've said it before, Britain is not a religious country now, hundreds of years of butchery bloodshed and death caused by friction and war between factions of christianity have made us instintively distrust religious fanatasism, or even very strongly held religious belfief for that matter.
Look no further than our attitude to those southern State American TV evangalists and preachers, their religiousTV progs that go down well in the USA are laughed at here and regarded with extreme distain.
Do I fear Islam, yes indeed I do, I certainly distrust it I would like to see it disapear into the dustbin of history as christianity has here, but that is unlikely to happen.
I will also repeat something I have said before, before someone gets on their high horse,this is not a new feeling in me, my dislike and distrust for that particular philosophy has not been brought on by recent evens, I have felt like this about Islam for the last forty years.
So my answer would be yes indeed, and yes we should fear it.

sprocket
8th Apr 2004, 20:53
Is the Muslim faith being used as a weapon of 'Mass' destruction?

LGS6753
8th Apr 2004, 20:58
What the fundamentalists are doing is to confirm that Enoch Powell was right in 1968 when he predicted 'rivers of blood' in the streets of Britain resulting from large-scale immigration.

We now have the very difficult situation, caused by mass immigration, of a large group of second and third generation immigrants that are torn between the culture and traditions of their forefathers and the attitudes and freedoms enjoyed by friends, colleagues, fellow-students etc in their host country.

Unfortunately, the source of the immigration (in this case mainly the Indian sub-continent), was a well-established civilisation based on utterly different religion, culture, rules, values, etc.

I am extremely pessimistic about resolving this fundamental difference in attitude. Whilst first-generation immigrants will try to assimilate into the host country, their heirs and successors are less likely to do so. Certain academics have been predicting the kind of Moslem fundamentalist attacks we have seen of late for ten years or more, but their warnings have gone unheeded by politicians who fear being branded 'racist' (The worst crime in the book in their eyes).

I personally view Moslems as potentially untrustworthy because they have an article of faith more important to them than Queen and Country. It concerns me that we are living amongst people whose avowed intent is our destruction. Not all Moslems believe that, but I believe a significant minority do. It is up to those who don't subscribe to the fanatics' agenda to help the security services deal with the dangerous few. If they fail to denounce the fanatics, or aid them through silence, they are 'against us' rather than 'for us'. The next few years will be a real test of whether Moslems can live in the West or not.

Spuds McKenzie
8th Apr 2004, 21:27
Putting all the Muslims in the same (fundamentalist) pot is fairly ignorant.
In short, there are Muslims and there are muslim Fundamentalists.
As there are Christians and christian Fundamentalists (one of its worst exponents in history would have been the witch hunters and the inquisition).

triplespool
8th Apr 2004, 21:51
But christian Fundamentalists do not fly aeroplanes into large buildings or strap TNT to them and push the button, and we are talking about the 21st century ie NOW and not the 16th century.

Dead_Heading
8th Apr 2004, 21:58
You have heard of Northern Ireland, right? That is 21st century.

Basically, religion is all the same when you take it to fundamental level, i.e. it ceases to be religion and becomes an excuse to kill people.

VFE
8th Apr 2004, 22:06
Just because other religions have had their share of loonies in the past does not mean it's okay for other religions to breed loonies now. What exactly are you saying Spuds? That fundamentalism is okay and that we should accept it on our own turf or are you simply belabouring the obvious? Four hundred years ago I think many people were quick to realise that guys like Matthew Hopkins were one offs and quickly counteracted any further sadism patented on the back of religion.

VFE.

montys ex teaboy
8th Apr 2004, 22:15
I donít fear them at all.

But I have respect for them. I also respect a dangerous snake.

Look at most of the trouble spots in the world today and you will find one common denominator. Sorry but there is no getting away from that fact.

Ludo
8th Apr 2004, 22:16
I would you like you to think about the way journalists and news have been talking about pilots lately...looking for the scandal and completely forgetting how many thousands fine professionals there are for a black sheep that turns up drunk for his flight.

Dead_Heading
8th Apr 2004, 22:23
While it IS true that the media focus our attention on Islamic militants:
What about Kosovo and Serbia?
What about Northern Ireland?
What about Uganda?
What about Zimbabwe?
What about Taiwan and China?
What about Tibet and China?

There are many conflicts that run on without islam. They're all caused by Political beliefs and others taken to the extremes by mentally unstable people, some of whom unfortunately run countries.

Just re-read the ROE, I don't think the mods will like this thread very much, so lets keep it polite.

VFE
8th Apr 2004, 22:27
Very true Ludo but that doesn't stop people being scared which was what the thread was supposed to be about. Whether pigeon holing it's right or wrong is kinda superfluous because it's what the people are thinking which I am concerned with and how silent some Muslims are in their condemnation of the terrorism. Comparing pissed pilots in the press to how Muslims are percieved in the UK is the kind of generalisation in perception of matters which never fails to fill all corners of a sizable debate such as this, sadly. The issue is far more complex than that so the debate will rage on for now.

VFE.

Spuds McKenzie
8th Apr 2004, 22:41
VFE,

All I wanted to say is, that you have to differentiate between ordinary Muslims and fundamentalist Muslims.

What exactly are you saying Spuds? That fundamentalism is okay and that we should accept it on our own turf or are you simply belabouring the obvious?

Gimme a break! It didn't come across likt this, did it?!

Ludo
8th Apr 2004, 22:54
Of course VFE. I was only trying to bring the debate back to your question. It seemed to me it had shifted a bit from your initial question. What I wanted to do, is make people think that when they say "I am scared because of what some Muslims did" is not the same as saying "I am scared because of the Muslims.
9/11 terrorists were bad-9/11 terrorists were Muslims-Muslims are bad. Typical example of fallacious syllogism.
Good quiet people don't make first page unfortunately. As Michael Moore says, the media are making a living of taking advantage of people's fears and scares.
This said, I am sure the problem of Muslim Fundamentalism will have to be faced without the stupid PCness (not talking of fair PCness) governments often use: deny a problem for fear of offending until it's too late; but then it's too late and the measures taken when it's too late are often strict and will surely provoke a strong reaction. See the problem of the veil in France.

VFE
8th Apr 2004, 22:58
Exactly how to differentiate between the fundamentalist Muslims and the good ones is what I am getting at Spuds. There is little way of knowing unless they stand on a soapbox and preach openly about their views. "Know your enemy" as 'Rage Against The Machine' once sung.

For all I know the next Muslim I pass in the street and cordially nod "hello" to could be on his way back to his family house in Romford to wire up a chemical device which someone further down the chain of agents plans to explode on the London underground at rush hour.

That is the issue which concerns me. People will soon realise, following more arrests by Special Branch, that the people arrested and charged were what appeared to be normal family Muslims, not non-English speaking foreigners living in caves, thousands of miles from here, which is currently the percieved vision of an Islamic terrorist by many here in the UK.

Yes, the press fuel the tension Ludo, but there comes a point when this fuelling of anxieties will reach breaking point and unless something (what?) is done this is the forseeable future as far as I can see. We have never been closer to tyranny since WWII.

VFE.

Spuds McKenzie
8th Apr 2004, 23:09
There is little way of knowing unless they stand on a soapbox and preach openly about their views.

This would be the case with anyone you don't know, VFE.
Back in the 70s and 80s anyone with an "oirish" accent in London would have drawn your suspicion then.
One of your neighbours could be a mass murderer.
These are the times we unfortunately live in, the result of negligent political (non)action in the past and overreaction in the present.
If I had to ask myself if anyone I meet on the streets could be my Nemesis eventually, I would go nuts.

triplespool
8th Apr 2004, 23:21
Know your enemy that's is how a war is won, but we don't know who the enemy is, do we. So we will come to fear people who come from these backgrounds. Will we have to tar people with the same brush? Yes, at some point.
At the moment we are all treated the same, thatís why this is such a great country.
One other point on a lighter note, just how many virginís do they get for being a Martyr (per day).

High Wing Drifter
8th Apr 2004, 23:44
I have worked with hindus, muslims, etc, etc for years and years. I can tell you the news portrayal is so mind bogglingly wide of my personal experience of people with these beliefs it beggers belief it self! But then again you have to look at all the other misrepresentations in the media to see it is not exclusive to mulsims.

Also, why do people say it was Al Qaeda wot dunnit when all Al Q' is a moniker, a label attached to make a hard to define enemy easy news fodder. A label what was conjured up by the US no less. Until the US starting using this name, there was no such thing in existance and yet we live in fear of it. What a flippin' joke.

This whole Mid-East hates West thing is a self fulfilling prophercy if you ask me. There is no common enemy other than the one we seek.

Who/what will it be once the West is bored testing its new weapons in a far-away desert? Settling of old scores with communists in Asia perchance?

Keef
9th Apr 2004, 00:01
Generalisations don't work. Some would call me a "fundamentalist" because I'm an active Christian. But my attitude to coercion and killing is an absolute "no way", and I'm a long way from being a fundamentalist.

I have some good friends who are members of other faith communities, and their attitudes are the same as mine. We debate theology into the wee small hours, and we agree on some and disagree on more. But we can agree to differ. We don't seek to kill each other, or to convert each other either.

When I get worried is when I read that "leaving the faith is an offence for which the punishment is death". When I read about fathers murdering their daughters as a matter of "honour", then I think something has gone horribly wrong. I'd like to be reassured that Islam doesn't teach that, and that it positively rejects it.

There is, I suggest, a grey area between genuine faith, and "pretend" faith used as an excuse for genocide or similar. The difficulty is that those whose concern is for our safety (the police etc) have an impossible task to decide when a ranting cleric is preaching the faith (and enjoying his religious freedom) and when he's preaching intolerance and murder.

If they get it wrong one way, they're accused of religious intolerance; if they get it wrong the other way and said ranting cleric plants a bomb, they get it in the neck for failing in their duty.

It's not "religion" that's wrong, it's the misinterpretation and abuse of some aspects of it by those who have personal motives (whatever they may be). Religion per se is not evil; I would argue that it's a force for the good of mankind - but I would say that, wouldn't I?

Unwell_Raptor
9th Apr 2004, 00:20
To those of us who lived through the Ulster insurgency from 1969 until recently this has a sense of deja vu.

I comfort myself with the thought that since the Soviet war machine imploded ther is nobody who can kill more than a few of us at a time - so I shall ignore all threats.

Bletchley
9th Apr 2004, 00:24
From the BBC website.

The Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, which has claimed responsibility for the Madrid bomb attacks, has declared a truce in Spain but warned that it is gearing up for new attacks.

Below is an extract of a letter allegedly written by the group, which claims to act on behalf of al-Qaeda, sent to the London-based Arabic newspaper al-Quds on Wednesday. It names Japan, Italy, Britain and Australia as possible future targets.

"Praise be to God who granted us the victory of Madrid and destroyed one of the pillars of the evil Crusader axis...

We gave the Spanish people the choice between war and peace, and they have chosen peace of their own will by electing the party which was against the US coalition in the war against Islam.

In view of this, the leadership has chosen to suspend all operations in Spain against civilian targets, until we know the stance of the new government which has promised to withdraw Spanish forces from Iraq, and until we confirm the non-interference of the new government in Muslim affairs.

The brigade's death squads are at your doors and will hit with an iron hand at an appropriate time and in an appropriate place


Because of this we call on all our agent groups in Europe to suspend all operations...

Take note of this, you puppets.

The brigade's death squads are at your doors and will hit with an iron hand at an appropriate time and in an appropriate place, particularly against Arab and Muslim agents such as Musharraf or al-Saud.

Time has no mercy and we are now gearing up for the next attack.

Can you see among yourselves who has a role?

Is it Japan, the USA, Italy, Britain, al-Saud or Australia...

A word for the foolish Bush.

We know that you live in the worst days of your life in fear of death squads which spoilt your world and we are very keen that you do not lose in the forthcoming elections as we know very well that any big attack can bring down your government and this is what we do not want.

We cannot get anyone who is more foolish than you, who uses force instead of wisdom and diplomacy.

Your stupidity and religious extremism is what we want as our people will not awaken from their deep sleep except when there is an enemy... "





http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3523804.stm (http://)

Omark44
9th Apr 2004, 00:53
One of the problems, as I see it, is that Al Qaeda (spl?), use Islam as their excuse but are, in fact, motivated by a stated hatred of the West and Western ways of life. An action against AQ is immediatley denounced by them as an attack on Islam when it is nothing more than an attack against terrorism. They even call the invasion of Iraq an attack on Islam and nothing could be further from the truth, it was an attack on a ruthless dictator and his regime, most of which happend to be of the Muslim faith, (Tariq Azziz was not a Muslim).

More moderate Muslims won't declare Al Qaeda's actions evil for fear of retaliation against them, personally, they know only too well the 'tall poppy' syndrome.

Moderate Muslims fear radical Muslims for sure but non Muslims who don't live in a Muslim country should not fear them, to do so simply plays into their hands.

Slow-Rider
9th Apr 2004, 02:07
I thought there would be a backlash a lot sooner after September 11th. I hoped and still do that we might have learned from the lessons from he past but we wont. I understand the fear of Islam, but it isn't Islam we should be afraid of. Being a Muslim doesn't make anyone have a predisposition for Martyring himself or herself. What does is the people allowed to influence them using the one thing that any good Muslim will hold in high regard - the words of the Koran.

These terrorists who think they are fighting Jihad have been lied to by about the only people they trust, who tragically are quintessentially evil. Taking what is written in the Koran and warping it to suit their own agendas is despicable. It's people who would do that sort of thing we should fear and examples of such people aren't confined to Islamic fundamentalism.

To answer their racism with our own will only play into the hands of the very people that case the trouble.

BlueDiamond
9th Apr 2004, 02:47
Before anyone jumps on me ... these are my observations only and, as such, can not be interpreted as applying to every muslim in Australia. This must be clearly understood.

I am unsure if I "fear" the muslims or if it is more of a suspicion/caution thing. Here in Oz we have people who have come to live here from all over the world, I am one of those having arrived here from England many moons ago. We continue to accept migrants from everywhere and probably have representatives of just about every country living here as Aussies.

I have noticed that the first generation migrants keep close contact with their traditions and customs and that, with each successive generation, the inportance of doing this seems to fade. The chidren of the migrant families become more "Aussie" as time goes on and while an eye may be kept on the traditions of the "land of origin," those traditions have nowhere near the significance to the younger folk as they did to the older. This seems to apply accross the board ... with the exception of the muslims.

It seems to me that these folk come here with the sole intention of reaping the benefits of the far better standard of living we enjoy here without ever intending to become a wholehearted part of it all. They will take out citizenship as soon as possible, obtain a passport and driving licence, accept unemployment benefits or whatever and they will call themselves "Australian." BUT ... they make a big point of keeing themselves apart from other Aussies even to the point of building their own schools for the children and ensuring that this segragation is complete by providing buses to transfer the children between school and home.

I am not the only one left wondering why such people bothered to come here in the first place. Surely there must have been other countries better than the ones they left that could have provided them with a good home and where they might have felt more at ease ... because they seem to be anything but at ease here. Where is the integration? Where are the Aussie friends? Where is the effort to belong? Why is there such resistance to becoming friends with those of other faiths or cultures?

I have to wonder why.

Captain Sand Dune
9th Apr 2004, 06:42
For your answer BD, have a look at history. What happened to Indonesia, Malaysia and quite a few Eastern African countries after Muslims arrived? They took over. Granted, their mission was made easier largely because the original occupants of those countries were largely uneducated and therefore easy to convert. I firmly believe the Muslim's mission in Australia is exactly the same - to eventually assimilate another country into the happy world of Islam.

ORAC
9th Apr 2004, 08:10
Dar al-harb

BlueWolf
9th Apr 2004, 08:12
Bring it on.

My ancestors, like those of a good many of those reading here I would hazard a guess, were the Celts, the Vikings, and the Anglo-Saxons.

We have seldom sought an enemy, but we have always faced them; even when we have faced one with fear, we have still faced them.

Our culture has come to dominate the globe; exploration, science, discovery, development, business, diplomacy, ethics, outlook, humanity, tolerance, religion. Dominance.

We dominate because we insightful and vigorous, determined in our goals and correct in our judgements.

We may respect the capabilities of the Muslim extremist, but we do not fear him; and even if we were to fear him, we would still face him, and we will still win.

Bring it on.

X-QUORK
9th Apr 2004, 08:34
I've just read BlueDiamond's post telling us about the complete lack of integration of the Muslim community with the rest of the Aussies, and I have to say the same problem exists here in the UK. In fact, isn't it interesting that as far as I'm aware I've never read a post by anyone on this site from the Islamic point of view. No muslim aircrew, or just not interested in joining in the debate? (Let's avoid the obvious 9/11 references to Muslim aircrew....poor taste.)

squire
9th Apr 2004, 09:20
"Following the murder of abortionist Bernard Slepian in New York State last autumn, several pro-abortion lobbies and news organs issued press releases accusing the pro-life community of inciting people to criminal violence. The people at the National Abortion Federation should look into a mirror if they wonder where the violence is coming from. They have incidentally trained it in three ways."

Anyone remember Waco or the reverend Jim Jones????Muslim fanaticals are no more worthy of your fear than any others.

I think this Muslim spells it out for you here (http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/hamza.html) :ok:

The point is they have a political agenda and they have hijacked a religion for their platform. Perhaps a better title should be "Is politics secretly feared":E

DeepC
9th Apr 2004, 09:40
Some good posts in this thread and it will be a shame if it is viewed as an Islam-bashing thread by the Mods.

I think Keef hit the nail on the head in the difference between Islam and most other religions. Islam preach justice(?) in the present life if you reject the faith whereas most other religions preach justice in the afterlife.

That makes it very difficult to win over supporters from within lawless places like Iraq as Clerics who openly support the coalition are themselves targets of radicals.

I think most of us come into contact with Muslims on a daily basis and find them generally to be honest, good people who view the terrorists with disgust. The fact is that it is only by working in close proximity and talking with them that we come to that view. It is not by the sorely lacking widespread condemnation from within the Muslim community. That is why there is mistrust (perhaps not fear) of Muslims that you see. I would think that most of us when in a crowded place like the underground or an aeroplane look around and when noticing a young Muslim male mentally give him the once over. Mistrust not fear.

DeepC

tony draper
9th Apr 2004, 10:09
As far as I can see Islamic terrorists don't have a political agenda,we knew what the IRA wanted, we knew what Eoka the Mau Mau,ETA and most of the other terrorist groups that have appeared since the war, they had a political purpose,it is possible to negotiate with someone like that,beat them in a war,or even be defeated by them,but a end can be reached, there is no end game for these people apart from martydom, the only pupose appears to be to kill as many infidels as possible(thats us).
They appear to blame the west for all the failings and inadeqacies and lets face it, what old Canterberry said is perfectly true , Islam has achieved nothing in the last 500 years except spread itself and keep its adherents in the dark ages,keep them in ignorance and poverty,this state suits organised religions, they have all strove to place a brake on learning and education,to maintain a ignorant plyable membership incidently I don't concider the ability to spout the words from holy books parrot fashion as scholarship ,they have to blame someone I suppose they could not possibly blame themselves after all they are following the word of god are they not.

HugMonster
9th Apr 2004, 10:27
Sorry, tony, but you're talking a load of b:mad:ll:mad:cks.

Ever heard of a place called Indonesia, just to take one example? You think it's a poor country? No advanced industries? Think again.

Islam has nothing to do with poverty, nothing to do with being technologically less advanced.

Such claims as Robert Runcieballs' disgraceful pronouncement are simply a thin veneer over prejudice - simple prejudice and bigotry.

montys ex teaboy
9th Apr 2004, 11:44
George Bush, whom I am a great admirer, has said you are either with us or against us. Believe me, we will have to make up our minds soon.

I would like to know how often terrorism is condemned in the Mosques at Friday prayers, anywhere in the world?

Agree with Keef, what sort of religion is it that will kills someone who converts to another faith???

A good illustration of what goes on in some circles was portrayed on the Panorama program on the BBC at the beginning of the week. There were several acts of treason, in front of the cameras, for the world to see. If a westerner had said something like that in e.g. Saudi Arabia, about KSA they would probably been lynched on the spot.

War has been declared on the west, or the "coalition of the willing". Remember the US entered WW2 for a lot less killed than 9/11 and internment took place then. I think it may have to be reintroduced soon in some countries in the west. If you dont know who the killers are, from the sypathisers, then that is a case for internment.

WeatherJinx
9th Apr 2004, 11:51
I have no problem in general with Islam as a faith, but do believe it currently has a case to answer to the rest of the world. The issues I seek answers to personally are the following:

I count some moderate muslims among my dearest friends, but although all of them condemn terrorism strongly, they show little inclination to support openly any efforts to defeat it.

I know that the extremists are not 'true' followers of Islam - but see little or no evidence of the 'silent majority' putting their own house in order.

From all the evidence I have seen, countries are only peaceful and successful when faith is completely separated from state - yet state governance appears to be an objective of Islam.

I'm not a religious scholar (not religious at all in fact - I think religion is de facto one of the world's biggest killers), but it seems to me that the Qur'an itself contains a fair amount of inflammatory anti-semitic language. This can only ensure the passage of acquired hatred down the generations.

Surely, if Islam is a religion of peace, there should be millions of muslims rising up against the threat posed by the tiny proportion of its most fanatical adherents. This is not happening.

Most of the countries where radical Islam thrives appear to be far more oppressed by their own kind than by any foreign 'imperialist infidels', imagined or otherwise.

I often hear muslims proclaiming that Islam preaches the equality of women, yet all I see are varying degrees of oppression and mediaeval attitudes toward them.

I would love someone more knowledgeable (the erudite Keef perhaps, or a PRuNing muslim?) on the subject to put me right on any or all of the above, but the fact is no-one has convinced me thus far that any of the concerns registered above are unjustified. All I hear from the moderate Islamic world (including its UK constituency) are to me half-hearted platitudes.

I work in the middle of one of the biggest potential terrorism targets in the country and see every day the suspicious faces (including shamefully, it has to be said, my own) turning towards any overtly muslim figure passing by.

I am as some of you will know, a fairly liberal-minded individual and a proud citizen of what is probably one of the fairest and most tolerant nations on the planet; but that i feel those qualities are eroding, and fast.

There's got to be an alternative to where all this is heading. Although I don't claim to have any or all of the answers, perhaps the reconciliation of Israel and Palestine (to the satisfaction of both parties) holds the only potential to be the seedbed of a sorely needed reversal?

Jx

Ozzy
9th Apr 2004, 12:53
No, muslims are not secretly feared. Secretly mistrusted I would say, by the majority of the non-muslim public. This is unsettling and unfair to the muslim community at large. Islamic fundamentalists whose goal it seems to be to destroy the "unbelievers" - that's us folks - and everything they stand for are doing untold damage to their own non-fundamentalist brethren. This being said, I am absolutely stunned that the mainstream Muslim community is not more pro-active in ridding itself of these cancerous individuals in their midst. They need to do more than send letters to mosques, they need to start cleansing themselves of the terrorists and terrorist sympathisers/apologists. If they don't I fear that, as this continues, and through the silence of the majority, it is impossible to identify those who oppose terrorism and those who don't, then calls for internment and having to "prove" ones allegience will increase.

Ozzy

Keef
9th Apr 2004, 13:41
Sadly, I don't know enough about Islam to answer the questions asked, and there are no Muslims in the happy mob of different faiths with whom I chat from time to time. That may or may not be significant.

There's a world of difference, in my view, between a religion (any religion) being "in charge" in a country, and adherents of that religion being in charge. When clerics are in positions of authority, we get all the corruption, simony, self-interest, abuse, and worse that England saw in the dark ages and mediaeval times, and that we see in some Muslim states today.

On the other hand, the application of (for example) Christian principles - as I know and teach them, anyway - would improve Government no end. I start at simple things like "always tell the truth", and "no hidden agendas" and "LISTEN to the people - God gave you two ears but only one mouth for a good reason".

I've noticed that some of the most respected (and liked) people I know are NOT adherents of any faith, yet follow those principles. The legacy of Christian ethics, perhaps.

After that it gets all complicated and theological and the relevance to aviation starts to become a tad hazy.

Off now to the Good Friday service. Peace to all.

Slow-Rider
9th Apr 2004, 14:14
Islam has achieved nothing in the last 500 years except spread itself and keep its adherents in the dark ages,keep them in ignorance and poverty,this state suits organised religions, they have all strove to place a brake on learning and education,to maintain a ignorant plyable membership

My Father is Egyptian and my Mother is English. I spent 12 years growing up in the Middle East. Ignorance was as abundant there as it is here and everywhere else in the world.

Education is in fact one of the 5 Pillars of Islam along with prayer etc.

As for oppression of women, in the country I lived in women were a common figure in government.

It's not Islam that is the problem it's the way people with their own agendas have adapted it to form propaganda against the west.

I agree with some posts that the real dangerous people are the people living here seemingly part of the community. These people are so detached from the real meaning of Islam its tragic. Sure they can quote pages of the Koran but all that means is that they have a good memory and loads of spare time.

My father is a Muslim, which by default means I am. But I don't practice as I don't agree with any religion. No one has ever put pressure on me to practice and no one should, that is in fact the belief of most Muslims. I've never heard of people being threatend with death before because they wantt o change religion but I don't know that much about Islam. It seems a bit sensational to me.

People are worried about how quiet moderate Muslims are. Thatís a load of cr8p. Practically every country openly criticizes terrorism and supports the western fight for it. How do you want people to show their support exactly?

Well I would love to see the "silent majority" put their own house in order but I think they may feel that it is us that caused the disorder. They may also think that it took us long enough to get our own house in (relative) order. (N. Ireland)

Someone mentioned that the terrorists have no goals apart from to rid the world of us western infidels. It's not the world they want to rid s from it's their own countries they want us out of.

Why is that? Well I believe it's because some of these countries have developed so fast with the discovery of oil and gas that they have lost their own identity. This has benefited them no doubt. If you go to places like Dubai it is as commercial and westernized as a high street here. More specifically it's like a little America. Out there restaurants are typically American franchises, Subway i think was there before it was here. TV used to be practically American to watch anything else you needed to buy cable, cars are American and people would be sent off to America for education.

Older traditional people began to resent the West as their children began to lose contact with their own culture. Events in the Middle East has made most people, including ourselves, whether we are right and what our motives are. Some people have used that uncertainty as way gain support for their own agendas. Theyíve recreated a identity as a Islamic group and gullible and impressionable people have been sucked in. That is no excuse for their actions that are evil by any one's account apart from those who seek the same goals.

I really don't know what the answer is to the problem but i think we need to stop those people that are inciting terrorism in this country. Then we need to make another effort in Isreal/Palestine and we need to get out of Iraq, but how we can do that I don't responsibly i don't know.

Grandpa
9th Apr 2004, 14:22
Islam is not unique.

Islam destiny isn't standing in eternity without any change.

In the past, a lot of different interpretations of Islam appeared and fought each others like Protestant and Catholics.

At the time being there are to versions opposing and despising one another (Sunnit and Shiit) unless Dubya fine politics manage to get them united against USA.

In recent years Islamic fundamentalist were defeated in Algeria and Egypt, mainly because their use of terrorism and massacre disgusted the average Muslim in these countries and because local authorities fought them without mercy.

There are two main reasons which help Islam fundamentalist to maintain their positions and even regain power:

Israel-Palestine conflict.

USA occupation of Iraq.

If we really want to promote a pacified Islam, we have to give up any colonialist attitude here and there.

In Egypt fundamentalist terrorist killed indeferrently Muslims, foreigners...Just remember Farag Foda,Naguib Mahfouz, Nasr Abou Zeid..............We must stay on the side of Arab men and women who want to get rid of dark age vision of religion.

I disagree with Tony : we had a long way to go in Europe to free ourself from religious obscurantism, we should not prevent Muslim to ride the same road..........but what do you think is the result of bombing a mosq in Iraq?

Fear!
We are feared by terrorism.
We are afraid of the barbars who cut four civilian into pieces in Iraq.

Are we afraid when USA bomb cities and crash dozzens of civilians?
Isn't it a butchery when it's done with high tech tools?
Isn't it terrorism?

airship
9th Apr 2004, 14:47
VFE, your stripes are beginning to show through quite clearly: For all I know the next Muslim I pass in the street and cordially nod "hello" to could be on his way back to his family house in Romford to wire up a chemical device which someone further down the chain of agents plans to explode on the London underground at rush hour. I have to concede that the next Muslim you pass in the street may well look like "a Paki b*****rd" ( your recently posted topic title harking back to "Love Thy Neighbour" days might have been amusing in another context (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125892)) because most Muslims in the UK probably are a darker shade of pale. In the same manner, the "Muslim" in the street who has just been cordially nodded to may just be asking himself why the fascist and xenophobic person they just passed was being so polite. If you really believe that he may be planning to bomb the Underground, then you should present yourself to the nearest police station, and be smart about it! :* :* :*

And X-XUORK: No muslim aircrew, or just not interested in joining in the debate? Presumably any Muslim aircrew who dared to intervene in this discussion would be immediately banned from flying to any destinations west of 20įE. And have you checked out PPRuNe's Arabic language forum recently? Anyway, when was the last time you posted anything on an Internet forum where the majority of participants were Muslims, or at least in any other language apart from your mother tongue?! :}

BillHicksRules
9th Apr 2004, 15:36
Airship,

Well said.

The barely disguised WASPish behaviour on this thread would make Oswald Mosley and Enoch Powell blush.

If this were a pub or a hotel lobby I would say that I was unlucky to have walked into a meeting of the BNP but on a website for so called "professional pilots" to find such narrow minded, uneducated, xenophobic vitriol is disturbing.

It is my hope that the vast number of you on here are penalised for breaking the ROE and for potentially exposing Danny to legal retribution.

BHR

montys ex teaboy
9th Apr 2004, 16:03
Bill, itís known as free speech. Something we will loose if the fanatics get their way, if they havent already?

Apparently a British citizen can go on UK television and condone the possible killing of innocent civilians in the UK and threaten to kill more of his own people, not to mention burning the Union Jack. Thatís ok, is it?? Do you condone that sort of thing Bill?

Try telling the truth in the ME or burn the UAE flag in the Emirates and see how far you get.

When a few home truths are aired on this forum someone wants the plug pulled.

tony draper
9th Apr 2004, 16:09
One of the reasons we have this problem of fear and resentment is that nobody has been allowed to talk about their genuine concerns for the last ten years or so, the racist /facist card has been cynically used by governments with the help of the media to stiffle any discusion,which meant they could happilly sit on their collective arses and do ****** all about it, thats blown out now Bill, its a gone gosling, peoples concerns have reached a critical mass.

airship
9th Apr 2004, 16:24
Char-wallah: When a few home truths are aired on this forum someone wants the plug pulled. I am for everyone having a voice. What I can't stand are people who refuse to stand up for what they are and be counted. Rather like Bin Laden and his sort who hide behind their version of Islam. :sad:

Nevertheless, please feel free to go ahead and air any other home truths that I should be aware of. :O

Tony D., for someone who has had complete freedom here at PPRuNe, don't you think that's a bit rich?! Or else maybe one should consider going darn sarf to Hyde Park corner and making one's message heard against all the other terrorists...! :E :D

BillHicksRules
9th Apr 2004, 16:27
MET,

"Bill, its called free speech.

Apparently a British citizen can go on UK television and condone the possible killing of inocent civilians in the UK and threaten to kill , more of his own people, not to mention burning the Union Jack. Thats ok, is it??"

MET, its called free speech. I personally do not agree but that is the law. He breaks the law then prosecute, if you can. The reason all these militant idiots are not being prosecuted is because the CPS (or whatever it is called now) know that they cannot get a conviction due to the high paid lawyerscum that sniff around these cases.

"Try telling the truth in the ME and see how far you get." We are not talking about the ME so lets stop trying to muddy the waters.

"When a few home truths are aired on this forum someone wants the plug pulled."

The home truths on this thread seem to be that several people think that any person of a skin tone darker than theirs "could be on his way back to his family house in Romford to wire up a chemical device which someone further down the chain of agents plans to explode on the London underground at rush hour."

To all those who think that their is acceptable racism then I would say that I think you are wrong. Deal with people as individuals on their own merits and faults. Not every Englishman is a hooligan not even every football fan is but remember how they all felt after the Heysel disaster being tainted as such. Also now when England play abroad there are massive police operations due to the reputation of the English football fan abroad which is tainted by a few thugs, with no real love of football, who are just looking to cause trouble and fight anyone.

Cheers

BHR

419
9th Apr 2004, 17:17
BHR,
I agree with some of what you say, But I think the reason for these "Militant idiots" are not being prosecuted, is that the police/CPS are scared sh1tless of being called racist.

I don't think Muslims are generally feared by most people, however, I would say a lot of people are wary of them. (wrongly in my opinion)

To use one of your examples - football hooligans. If someone was going along a street and they saw a dozen football fans walking towards them, a lot of people would cross the road "just in case". The chances are that they would be ordinary fans, BUT, with the publicity over football hooligans, a lot of people wouldn't want to take the chance.
With the current security situation, it is becoming the same with the Muslim community.


419

Keef
9th Apr 2004, 17:30
That strikes a gong! I was invited, years ago, to preach at Church in the East End of London. Inevitably I took a wrong turning somewhere and ended up in a dead end street. There was a crowd of large black men there, and I was a bit worried.

One came over and asked "Are you OK, bro?" I told him I was trying to find XXX Church. The whole group came over, asked me if I'd like to join them at their Church instead - they were on their way there - and when I explained were very helpful in giving me nice, clear, idiotproof directions.

brandnew
9th Apr 2004, 17:45
Fantastic thread. Very glad that everyone's kept their sense close to hand.

Keep it coming - all I can add is that if there is a solution, then it's probably worse than the problem: things are not too bad - if we just keep going nice and delicately in the same vein, things should calm down, eventually.

Grandpa
9th Apr 2004, 20:36
The definition of liberty is "Your liberty's limit is where begins the other's"

According to this principle, and to horrible past experience, laws have been passed in most developed countries forbiding incitation to murder and racist declarations.........

In my beloved country these laws have been used a number of time, mainly against far right leaders as J.M. Le Pen for antisemitic declarations (anti-arab, anti-black.....), but it's also used against others dangerous actions: yesterday two mosqs have been closed by French authorities after imams predicated there promoting "jehad".( for "undermining civil peace").

I wonder why these laws (I suppose they exist there) are not respected in Great-Britain, as some post are saying.

I wonder also why Danny, who knows a lot about it, allows so many racist stupidities to be posted here?

tony draper
9th Apr 2004, 22:27
What racist stupidities Grandpa?, a question was asked, I answered and gave some of the reasons for my answer,others have done the same, are people like myself only allowed to have a opinion on White Anglo Saxon Protestants, to have any opinion on any other is racist?bit Orwellian that grandpa.

Capt.KAOS
9th Apr 2004, 23:14
Interesting Muslim "terrorists" were the first to be blamed when Americans bombed the Oklahoma government building. Once the culprits turned out to be Americans, the word "terrorism" faded from the headlines. They were "fanatics".

Arabs can be their own worst enemies. They have produced some truly grotesque dictators and their violent groups have committed some evil deeds in the name of Islam. Yet it makes me rage about those puritanical, infantile clerics - Christian as well as Muslim or Jew - who refuse to see that the world is a complex society worthy of compassion as well as dogma.

Herr Drapers bigotry remarks would certainly mean a permanent ban if made about another religion or ethnic group :rolleyes:

Techman
9th Apr 2004, 23:35
How very true Capt.KAOS, how very true.

con-pilot
10th Apr 2004, 00:13
No sorry Capt. K. The Oklahoma City bombers were then and still are terrorists. They are home grown terrorists for sure, but terrorists all the same.

I do not believe that Tony D. is a bigot in anyway, shape or form. Tony has repeatedly stated that he is against ALL religions. And if that makes one a bigot, count me in, at least Iíll be in good company.

Remember, different is different, not wrong or right, nor good or bad, just different!

Caslance
10th Apr 2004, 08:09
The Oklahoma City bombers were then and still are terrorists. Actually, they were cowardly murdering dross then, and still are cowardly murdering dross. Like "terrorists" the world over.

Why do we persist in glamourising these people - whatever cause they claim to espouse?

They are no more than common criminals who have granted themselves the authority to slaughter those who think, look, speak, act or even dress differently from themselves.

Returning to the subject: if the sole measure of bigotry is a disdain for all organised religion then I, too, must be a bigot.

VFE
10th Apr 2004, 13:22
Well said Brandnew. Thank god someone can see the usefulness of this thread before rocking up with the ole racism card. Personally, I think that anyone who simply waves the racism card on this thread is completely missing the point, is engaging mental autopilot and is trying to appear liberal for liberals sake. But some might accuse me of the same spin I was administered, so I'm keen to stiffle that particular line of pseudo intellectual debate.

BHR and airship do not realise how one dimensional and thick they are appearing in their condemnations. They assume the moral high ground with their hackneyed attacks on what one suspects many people think but dare not say - this thread is proof is it not? 'Racism' is too simple and short a word to describe my feelings on this matter my friends so stop trying to catogorise and pigeon hole my thoughts just to make the debate more understandable in your own minds. My "colours", should they be showing through, would be showing the opposite of what you think so I'll be damned if I feel compelled to sit here and justify why I am not the person you accuse me of being! All I wanted was a little honesty and some free debate, then you come along and admonish me for it. Screw you.

There was one time when my views would be accepted on their individual merits before the national front forced everyone to distinguish black from white, with no middle ground. I make no apologies for feeling scared and if the above mentioned pair actually read my original post properly before getting on their high horses they would see that I'm attempting to halt the worrying thoughts which I find myself possessing. My view is that many people (including free Muslims) feel the same so this needs to be addressed before it's too late, right? Racism is born from fear. I admited my fears in the hope that I might find someone giving an antidote bur as far as BHR and Aisrship are concerned we're the ones espousing dangerous views and all conversation should be halted? That is the same head-in-the-sand behaviour which see's swastikas banned from Airfix kits! You do not deal with something by ignoring it. Are any Jews less dead because of a ban on swastikas? Of course not.

Perhaps Airship and BHR are the intollerant ones here with little backbone, not me. Stop trying to make everyone fit into your own narrowminded templates please. At least I have the courage of my convictions to address something painful. All I ask is some measured input and no engaging of preconvieved ideas.

VFE.

Danny
10th Apr 2004, 18:09
I wonder also why Danny, who knows a lot about it, allows so many racist stupidities to be posted here?One mans racist stupidity is another mans bleeding heart, politically correct, holier than thou, pseudo intellectual stupidity. :rolleyes:

Grandpa
10th Apr 2004, 18:23
Sorry your message is encrypted.....

What do you think of a new thread:

"Are racist secretly feared?"

or this one:

"Are racist hiding behind "free speach" hypocrisy?"

Don't you remember the way used by negationist and revisionist pseudo historian about the Shoah?

BillHicksRules
10th Apr 2004, 18:26
VFE,

"For all I know the next Muslim I pass in the street and cordially nod "hello" to could be on his way back to his family house in Romford to wire up a chemical device which someone further down the chain of agents plans to explode on the London underground at rush hour.

That is the issue which concerns me. People will soon realise, following more arrests by Special Branch, that the people arrested and charged were what appeared to be normal family Muslims, not non-English speaking foreigners living in caves, thousands of miles from here, which is currently the percieved vision of an Islamic terrorist by many here in the UK."

Could I ask how you identify a Muslim from a presbyterian? Do they wear identifying badges in your area? Or have you used some other visual criteria under which you operate? I have trouble seeing any common visual identifiers that would join Muhammed Ali, Cat Stevens, Yasser Arafat and Osama Bin Laden.

So I am interested in how you know what religion that supposed Muslim you passed was.

Cheers

BHR

VFE
10th Apr 2004, 18:38
Nice try BHR. Your last question highlights the point I was making if you care to reread a previous post from me. :)

Now that you've safely turned this thread into a "look how racist everyone is" thread, ensuring that nobody else dares air their views can I just refer you to my statement: My "colours", should they be showing through, would be showing the opposite of what you think so I'll be damned if I feel compelled to sit here and justify why I am not the person you accuse me of being!
This thread was designed to work on more than one level, actually. One of the things it was hoped it would highlight is the issue of how innocent Islamic people are being tarred with the same brush because of Al-Q and how this could be leading to something sinister. You have tarred me with the racist brush (which is laughable!) for speaking up about a concern. Yes, there was a certain amount of usual wind-up undercurrent in my starting of this thread but as I have already said, we do not deal with issues by ignoring them.

Lastly, if indeed I were racist would I give two hoots about how Islam is being hijacked and how innocent Muslims are being falsly percieved? Think about it next time.

VFE.

BillHicksRules
10th Apr 2004, 18:47
VFE,

"My "colours", should they be showing through, would be showing the opposite of what you think so I'll be damned if I feel compelled to sit here and justify why I am not the person you accuse me of being!"

A 40 word sentence in which you manage to say absolutely nothing. Well done.

I see that you did not answer my question despite referring to it. Almost beat me with your clever wordplay.

"Lastly, if indeed I were racist would I give two hoots about how Islam is being hijacked and how innocent Muslims are being falsly represented? Think about it next time."

Try looking at the warning at the bottom of the thread pages with regards to this "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. "

"Now that you've safely turned this thread into a "look how racist everyone is" thread"

If the shoe fits.

Cheers

BHR

Rollingthunder
10th Apr 2004, 18:50
And stuff like this does not help...


"Family members with ties to al-Qaeda return to Canada
Mother now denies connection with terrorists

Chris Wattie and James Cowan
National Post; CanWest News Service; With files from The Canadian Press


April 10, 2004

TORONTO - Two members of a Canadian family tied to al-Qaeda returned to Canada on Friday, including a 14-year-old boy para-lysed in a gunfight with Pakistani security forces.

But the arrival of Karim Khadr and his mother Maha Elsamnah at Toronto's Pearson International Airport prompted calls for them to be stripped of Canadian citizenship.

Arriving from Pakistan via Britain, the teen flashed a peace sign as his wheelchair was guided past a throng of reporters.

His mother, her face partially hidden by a white veil, walked slowly behind

her son, tears welling up in her eyes as she uttered: "I have no connection to al-Qaeda," a statement that conflicted with her own past comments and with one of her son's remarks that his was an al-Qaeda family.

The pair was escorted by a half-dozen police officers to a van that whisked them away from the Good Friday frenzy at the airport.

Abdurahman Khadr, 21, who himself was held as a suspected terrorist for a time, greeted his 47-year-old mother and younger brother. He said last month that his family had al-Qaeda ties.

"I'm happy they're back and I'm hoping my sister, my other sister and her daughter will get back soon," Khadr told reporters after helping his brother up a ramp and into the van.

"We hope to get him into a hospital here," said Khadr, adding the family has no idea how they'll pay for treatment for the boy, who is not entitled to medicare coverage because he doesn't meet residency requirements.

The boy has been in a Pakistani hospital since last October, when he was shot in the spine during a battle in Waziristan near the Afghanistan border. Ahmed Said Khadr, the boy's 57-year-old father and an alleged adviser to Osama bin Laden, was killed in the battle. A third Khadr brother, 17-year-old Omar, is in U.S. custody in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Family members have admitted in earlier television interviews to having involvement with al-Qaeda.

The mother has said she would be proud for her sons to serve as suicide bombers. One is now being held by U.S. authorities in Guantanamo Bay.

Previously denied applications for new passports because they had lost their documents too many times, Canadian officials issued them emergency passports, only valid for their trip from Karachi to Toronto.

But opposition critics say Ottawa should have stripped the pair of their citizenship, instead of helping to smooth the way for their return to the country.

"Canadian citizenship is diminished when we allow it to be extended to people like the Khadrs," said Stockwell Day, foreign affairs critic for the Conservatives.

"They think they can prance back into Canada, recharge their batteries, and go back out into the field to do what they've been doing up until now.

"It's a stinging slap in the face to all law-abiding Canadians."

Sameer Ahmed, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs, said the department was obliged to help them return to Canada.

"Canadian citizens have the right to return to Canada," he said. "Our responsibility is to ensure that they can exercise that right."

Ahmed said the family paid its own way back to Canada, but the government had intervened with the Pakistan government to obtain an exit visa for the Khadrs.

Day said that he was shocked the government had smoothed the way for their return.

"Having the Khadr family bumped to the head of the queue ... it's incomprehensible."

Their mother, Maha Elsamnah, had earlier told CBC television she would be proud to have her children become suicide bombers and said she sent her four sons to al-Qaeda training camps because it was better than raising them in Canada.

"Would you like me to raise my child in Canada and by the time he's 12 or 13 to be on drugs or having some homosexual relation or this and that?" she said.

Abdurahman Khadr has said his mother was under the influence of Muslim extremists."

BillHicksRules
10th Apr 2004, 18:55
RT,

What was the point you were hoping to make with that cut and paste post? Was there a point? Or were you just fanning the flames of this thread?

BHR

Rollingthunder
10th Apr 2004, 19:04
Fan Flames?

No, but this thread was created to debate our feelings about the motivations of some Muslims in our western societies.

The "cut and paste" posting was information about a sad example of one family's misguided and cheap attempt to take advantage of Canadas humanitarian ethos given their avowed commitment to destruction of that way of life in the name of some religion.

Ozzy
10th Apr 2004, 19:37
Like the boy who cries "wolf," those who shout "Racist!" too often cheapen the idea. By putting opponents on the defensive against their misguided charge, people can sidetrack an argument and vilify those who disagree with them, casting them as bigots. from an article by columnist Brian Close. Says it all really.

Ozzy

BillHicksRules
10th Apr 2004, 20:01
Ozzy,

Should racism be allowed simply when someone says "I am not a racist but ....." ?

Cheers

BHR

El Grifo
10th Apr 2004, 20:13
BHR, I believe that the idealism that you are dispensing is fine for a university-debating group, but has no relevance to real life.

VFE states "For all I know the next Muslim I pass in the street and cordially nod "hello" to could be on his way back to his family house in Romford to wire up a chemical device which someone further down the chain of agents plans to explode on the London underground at rush hour"

Like it or not, accept it or not, these are the exact type of thoughts which an increasing number of people, in major cities around the world are experiencing on a daily basis.

Who can blame them?

We are told London will be the next city to be targeted. We are told that it is an almost forgone conclusion.

If there is an atrocity carried out in London, the backlash on the easily identifiable majority of the muslim community will be all to real, whether you think it is morally incorrect, racist, or whatever label you care to apply.

It is a natural human reaction to be fearful of someone who openly displays his or her affiliation to a group, which has within its structure, fanatics who have proved that they rejoice in the mass murder of thousands of innocents throughout the world.

On my island we have a large community of Moroccans both legal and illegal. In recent months and certainly since March 11th there has been a purge of the illegals. The feeling on the street is that at least we have taken a small step in the right direction.

We have many Chinese, Senegalese and Indians who live and assimilate perfectly into the truly European complexion of the island.

Nobody has the smallest reason to fear or be suspicious of them.

I suggest a little journey down from the giddy heights of your Ivory Tower, to base street level. Get out more, talk to real people in English Cities with large muslim populations where attacks are expected, see how they feel.

I am utterly convinced that VFE has hit the nail squarely on the head.

Wino
10th Apr 2004, 22:06
I only read the last two pages of this thread BUT, I was thinking about the posts that have stirred such a brewhaha... and BHR, you got it dead wrong.

There is nothing wrong with an increased police presence at a soccer match because of the actions of a FEW hooligans and you shouldn't be indignant about it. It is normal and appropriate. You SHOULD put the police where there has historically been trouble.

As to the statement, about the next muslim MIGHT be going to wire up a bomb in their basement? That statement is ABSOLUTELY right as well. Of course he might also be a lottery ticket winner and the percentages are probably even lower in odds that he's a terrorist then a lottery winner, but the statement is right. He MIGHT be, most likely isn't, but he might be. I might be, hell Danny might be.... Most likely aren't though...

And yes there are plenty of blond hair blue eyed children of the crusades throughout the middleeast.... SO physical features might not be good enough. But you can look at the local mosque and wonder without being a bad person. Wondering and caution is a LONG way from racism or doing racist things. Scrawling hate messages on the wall of the mosque would be bad. Wondering what is going on in there however, does NOT make you a bad person, regardless of what the PC police say.

The ruthless playing of the race card against anyone exhibiting the slightest bit of common sense or curiosity or fear is just another symptom of the decline of the west and the use of political correctness to push what is really a bankrupt adgenda

Cheers
Wino

419
10th Apr 2004, 22:21
"The ruthless playing of the race card against anyone exhibiting the slightest bit of common sense or curiosity or fear is just another symptom of the decline of the west and the use of political correctness to push what is really a bankrupt adgenda"

Wino, What a pity you can't get in to U.K. Government. This is the sort of atitude the U.K. is sadly lacking in at the moment.

419

BillHicksRules
10th Apr 2004, 23:26
VFE/Wino/ElGrifo,

Well if you all agree then how could I be right. I mean there are no examples of large groups of people acting with distrust towards another on the basis of skin colour, race or religion and that being racist. None at all. None in Europe in the 1930s and 40s. None in the US in the 1940s, 50s and 60s. Nope none at all.

I mean all those bad racists are blatant about their beliefs like the KKK.

I mean all racists go around saying " I have no good reason for hating those people. None at all. I just hate them."

It could not be otherwise. I see the error of my ways now.

Cheers

BHR

VFE
10th Apr 2004, 23:49
Getting the feeling now that you actually want to think of us as racist BHR. In fairness, you have wasted too much of my time already on this thread spouting your own particular brand of immature, debating-by-numbers spin to warrant anymore of my time but one last shot into the air for nostalgia's sake......

As far as I am concerned, you are the bigot here. Definition of a 'bigot' being a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own. Your prejudices being against anyone who so much as breathes a word about their understandable worries concerning the real threat of innocent Muslims becoming targetted. Not once have I declared a hatred towards Muslims or any other ethnic group but that's by the by. Whatever makes you think of myself as racist is purely in your head through a desire to let rip at someone you feel is some kind of Alf Garnett character in disguise, if you ask me. Do you think that's fair on me? You deserve a harsher chastising for those accusations than myself and others have administered you. Actually, I thought you more intelligent than you've shown yourself to be on this thread, which is a real pity mate. Your future postings on other topics are now likely to receive the same cursory glance your future ramblings on this particular thread are likely to receive from myself. And if you happen to go to one of the PPRuNe bashes I think you're likely to get an embarrassing surprise should you sit and actually listen to what I might say to you.

"Cheers".

VFE.

BillHicksRules
11th Apr 2004, 00:13
VFE,

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

I also think you have a very high opinion of what I should think of you.

I am merely commenting on your posts as I see them. As every single person on here does.

Your steadfast refusal to answer any of my points has been my major bone of contention. At least Wino and El Grifo have attempted to put forward cases and points. I may not agree but that is life and that is JetBlast.

My concern on this thread has been to counteract the supposition put forward by many that there are acceptable forms of prejudice. That one can think things or say things but not be wrong and that only action makes it wrong. I disagree because this is the thin end of the wedge of intolerance. Look at all the historical examples. They started small and grew. If only some people had had put a stop to it then who knows how things might have turned out.

Try reading "The Leader" by Guy Walters. It is an average story but the setting is quite frightening in its possiblity.

I have no ill-feelings toward you VFE and I do not think you, El Grifo or Wino are racist. I simply think that you and I have the intelligence to take a different path to that proscribed by the media, the government and the real racist loonies.

In my posts I simply have attempted to show you the potential spin that can be put on what you have said and how that takes us to the next level and the next and the next. And then we are off to the races.

I have posted before on another thread that I think we should start putting out a positive message about Islam. Lets try and turn around the negative press being bandied about. We cannot leave it to the media or the government. Bad news sells papers and politicians get elected by making people afraid of something.

I am not saying that Islam does not have its monsters and demons as I know it does. But every race, religion and organisation does but we learn to seperate the good from the bad as children so why should we forget the lesson in adulthood?

You up for the challenge? I extend it to all Ppruners.

Cheers

BHR

VFE
11th Apr 2004, 00:25
You are singing to the choir BHR. What puzzles me is why you felt the need to extemporise on what I initially typed to manufacture some row which never was there in the first place. My post at the start of this thread voiced worries that people might not differentiate between terrorists and normal Muslims in the UK. Did you see the news today? The guys who were arrested last week had 24 members of family turn up at court. Innocent until proved guilty aside, should it be the case that these men are Al-Q agents this presents a possible relations nightmare for the Islamic fraternity does it not? Your average Joe Bloggs down the pub ain't likely to spot the differences, much less care about them when he walks home fuelled up, and decides to do what those evil sods did to Stephen Lawrence a few years back. Methinks you got off to the wrong conclusion about the reasons why I stared this thread and if I aided that with some carefully worded lines of provocative typing then so be it. This needs addressing before Enoch Powells vision becomes a reality but you go back to hiding your head in your university library books. Some things cannot be learned from a book you know.

VFE.

Wino
11th Apr 2004, 00:27
No what BHR is espousing is the typical liberal claptrap of thinking they are somehow intellectually superior.

I have not scrawled graffiti, insulted a muslim or anyone else on the basis of race (atleast not knowingly or intentionally) or religion. I have not incited other people to commit such acts nor would I condone such behavior.

But what you propose in ridiculous BHR, and furthermore is much of the problem with todays society. It simply doesn't work. Furthermore, that is precisely how you get the idiocy of strip searching 80 year old blind crippled swedish women before they board aircraft in America (The Liberals tell us you have to treat everyone equally afterall) or get EVERYONE's fingerprint and picture taken before they enter the country.

God forbid you should actually respond to where a threat actually is... And god forbid you should listen to the little voice in your head ringing an alarm bell. Its usually right... Don't go out and start a pogrom, but by all means be vigilant. Don't silence a warning bell in your mind because it is politically incorrect. Lots of copilots doing just that have allowed Captains to kill them since the beginning of aviation.

Don't play the percentages. Don't allow yourself any advantage that doing so might generate. Treat everyone EXACTLY the same.... Yeah, that will work.... Why don't you go back through all the other threads an security and flying in America after 9/11

Cheers
Wino

edited to add:
I wrote that post before the other 2 popped up directly above this one, so we had already moved on before this.

But the point is BHR, there is no such thing as an objective dispassionate person, and what you espouse pretends the case to be otherwise. People are SUBJECTIVE. they all have their quirks and views and shouldn't be made to feel bad about having them. That being said, they should feel bad about participating in a crystal nacht or other pogrom, carrying out a hate crime etc...

But you can't dictate thoughts to people, and that is what you are trying to do.. You are over board in the other direction in your worries about the thin edge of a wedge.

Make a REAL thin wedge of brie cheese, pound it against a steel wall, all you are gonna have is cheese splattered everywhere...

Cheers
Wino

BillHicksRules
11th Apr 2004, 00:38
Wino,

"God forbid you should actually respond to where a threat actually is... And god forbid you should listen to the little voice in your head ringing an alarm bell. Its usually right"

Coming from the country that poses the greatest risk to the continued existence of this species, all other species and the actual planet itself, I will give you this, you have some gall.

At least make some attempt to get your own house in order before you go spouting off at me. Your current administration is doing its best to rape the planet for every dollar they can and you come on here and complain about my "liberalism".

Are we going to do this little dance again? We did it about 6 months ago till you and your countrymen went quiet about it.

BHR

bugg smasher
11th Apr 2004, 01:17
It's not "religion" that's wrong, it's the misinterpretation and abuse of some aspects of it by those who have personal motives (whatever they may be). Religion per se is not evil; I would argue that it's a force for the good of mankind - but I would say that, wouldn't I?

Keef,

A breath of fresh air in an otherwise nonsensical debate.

Atrocities of every imaginable description and scale have been committed in the name of Christianity, one has only to read a brief history of the Royal Navy and her proud traditions, the cargo and emissaries she carried to all parts of the world, to fully grasp the scale of human and cultural devastation that has occurred in the last several hundred years.

We now find ourselves confronted with a predictably circular onslaught that is not only comparable in scope, but frighteningly reminiscent in method. We have taught, by example, Osama bin Laden and others like him well. In the inscrutable way of this world we live in, a bird of monstrous proportions has come home to roost, bloody talons now firmly embedded in the soft meaty flesh of the peoples of America, her chosen leaders, and her complacent allies in coercion.

You seem a principled man, your faith well founded in the teachings of the prophets. In my limited capacity to understand such things, I do not doubt that the Koran and the Bible are both profound and sublime; only that the difficulty appears to reside in the grasping thereof.

My children, and the world I leave to them, occupy the majority of my thoughts these days. It is my profoundest desire that it will be a world they may grow and prosper in.

Omark44
11th Apr 2004, 01:24
Why do I get the distinct impression that BHR is actually still very young and full of juvenile idealism?

Rollingthunder
11th Apr 2004, 01:38
Genltemen, I can see the future.

Ignoring the debate to pound on each other will result in a closed thread... or worse.

Danny
11th Apr 2004, 02:42
Too right. Once we get the BHR scattergun approach of the 'Evil Empire' ruining the world, it is time to put this one to bed. That one was so far off target that BHR has shot himself in the back. :hmm:

If you don't think in his muddy, blurred edge way then you must be *insert label here* and unworthy of respect. Unfortunately for many of us, probably a majority, it is graduates like BHR with that kind of thinking that are responsible for the luvvie media dictating exactly how we should feel by skillful editing and dramatic licence. Thankfully, many of us here are not so easily swayed and are perfectly able to form opinions based on experience and mistrust of media luvvies. :yuk:

Isn't it great when you absolutely, positively know you can get the last word in on a thread like this! Must really grate with some pseudo intellectuals.