It's not what you know....it's who you know....or is it????

[P1 Forever]

Hi everyone,

Is this statement above really true?

I mean, you hear folk mention networking and all that, which is fair enough, but is it really true to say that you need to know someone on the inside such as a recruitment pilot in order to gain a RHS on turbo/jet?

I would personally find it quite insincere to befriend someone just because they are high-up in management of an airline.

Therefore, I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts with regards to the above and also people who have made it with a straight forward CV/application and not the I know you..you know me..so lets give you the job!!

Cheers for now...

[tom24]

I am in the job I do now (non-aviation) purely as a result of who I know (albeit with the necessary basic required skills). Its a good job that I wouldn't have got if I hadn't known who I do and I’m sure the same would count, to an extent, in aviation. I would have no problems whatsoever making friends with somebody just to get on the inside. Call me shallow? Maybe, but there isn’t any charity in this game.

[Irish_Roll]

I would agree with the above statement. Unfortunately, we as low hour pilots ARE a potential risk to airlines. Therefore if you are able to get a recommendation from an established employee, vouching that you are not a nut case but a well balanced, eager and hard working person with a nice personality, your first hurdles are already overcome.


For many out there with no contacts then the job hunt becomes a little harder.

I was fortunate to a have a contact within an airline who introduced me to the people in the know. From there, I was on my own and had to pass the selection and sim check.

Networking is perhaps mis-understood. It is to every inexperienced pilots advantage to know, meet and learn something more about the industry they want to enter...............and then may be more doors will open.

Keep the faith.
:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

I would also not befriend someone just because I thought it might get me a job.

However, as I go through life meeting people, I always try to befriend them, unless I really don't like them. That's just the way I am, it's the way I've always been. I've got a couple of friends in the industry, and quite a few more people who I'm on friendly terms with even though I may not count them as friends. Many of these I met when I was a humble PPL with no commercial aspirations whatsoever, so the idea that they might get me a job one day never even occured to me when I met them.

FFF
--------------

[in-2-wind]

Out of 7 graduates on my integrated course, 4 are now flying turbos or jets as a first job. All 4 had either family or very close contacts within thier respective companies.
The other 3 are still desperatley trying to get a look in.

The answer, YES it is (to a large degree) who you know.

Not fair, but the way it is i'm afraid. :uhoh:

Windy

[PURPLE PITOT]

Well i know a lot of people in the right places, but since they all think i am a tw@t i still cant get aproper job!

[excrewingbod]

P1 Forever,

It depends on how well respected your friend is within the company concerned. It can actually work against you as well, as I've known companies to avoid recommendations from certain individuals.

Generally though, it can assist you in getting to an interview, assuming you meet the relevant requirements. I got my flying instructor an interview with the airline I work for. He still had to pass the interview and sim assesment, which he did and is now in the RHS flying Embraer 145s/135s.

The same happens in all industries, aviation is far from unique in that respect. The more connections you have the better.

[Pilot Pete]

I think maybe a little clarification is called for. Networking does not just mean sidling up to those in high places within an airline, or even just befriending them because you think they may get you a job. It's much more than that.

Networking is trying to be in and around the industry you want to break into. If you find your next door neighbour is DFO for a major carrier then great, but senior pilot managers are not the only good network contacts. It's about ALL the contacts that you make from day one. This includes other Wannabes whom you meet along the way. One of you is going to get the first break and get the first job. That person is now a useful contact (as well as hopefully being a mate by now) who can pass extremely valuable information to you about the selection process he/ she took and what's going on recruitment wise in his/ her airline (perhaps not as accurately as the HR Director, but you get my drift?)

Wannabes have helped other Wannabes get their first break so it amazes me that some never keep in touch with other pilots that they meet during training (obviously having assessed their character). I am still in touch with a 'circle' of pilots whom I trained with; all of whom now work for airlines, you never know, even when you're in, when they might come in handy! I have found them a useful source of info and have managed to return the favour by even getting a mate onto a shortlist of one for an air taxi job!

A large number of individuals have worked for airlines in other capacities, just to try to get a foot in the door and have been successful. Some may well be shallow, but perhaps some are just extremely determined and have impressed certain individuals who have the power to hire and fire pilots. They have in effect positioned themselves to be offered an opportunity to go for pilot selection with said airline and perhaps even been placed on the 'special' pile of CVs. They have positioned themselves through networking.

Networking alone is not enough(generally speaking), as has already been pointed out. You still have to be capable of jumping through the hoops when the opportunity arises, but look at the benefit of the networking that the half a dozen Thomas Cook Ops guys did earlier this year..........

I feel that in this tough market networking has become even more important. With a few notable exceptions the vast majority of Wannabes that I know who have secured employment have networked in some way to help make it happen.

As a breed we pilots tend to be fairly reserved (unless we're in a bar with the cabin crew!) and very judgemental. Networking like a saleman is not something that on the whole, the majority of us find the easiest of things to do. As has been pointed out already though, no-one else is going to do your selling for you and aviation is certainly not a charity, so the sooner you can convince yourself of the benefits of a bit of 'self-sales' the better..........

Best of luck to you all.

PP

[fr8ter boi]

With some companys it does matter. One I was part of would not interview anyone without a recommendation. This sounds hard but it was a company which had quite a few ultra long haul operations. It also prided itself on it's CRM training. The chief CRM trainer was often heard to say that CRM started in the interview. And you don't want to fly to Japan with a w@nker, as a small niggle at the planning stage could develope into a ten story high problem with flashing neon lights 10 hours later over Siberia.

That company had a policy which proteted itself - and generally it worked.

The company I fly for now has a different policy. They don't want recommendations - they prefer to make up their own minds with no inerference from it's pilots trying to get their mates a job.

I don't know which system works best, but the latter does save me trips to the office!

[G-LOST]

Pilot Pete - well said!

Securing that initial airline job more often than not requires one or more of the following factors.

1. A recommendation.

2. Being prepared to move anywhere.

3. Immediate availability.

I got a job ahead of others because I had all 3 in my favour. Others missed out. Regardless, the value of a recommendation cannot be underestimated.

Networking is not about the shallow sucking-up to people. It is about making friends and allowing them to assess for themselves whether or not they would want to work with you. Only then will they put a good word in for you. Now that I've crossed the fence and am in the position to recommend others, I realise that it is quite a big call. There are people I cannot recommend, not because I dislike them necessarily, but because I question whether they have the commitment to the job and all it entails (ie. working hours, nightstops, time away from family) and/or the ability or relevant experience to do it well.

If I recommend someone, my reputation and judgement is at stake also. Having the basic licence and qualifications is not sufficient to vouch for someone, nor is a smarmy attitude that can be spotted a mile away.

LOST no longer.

[MikeAlphaBravo]

Interesting subject, and I agree entirely that it definately helps to know people. Trouble is, barring loitering round airports etc. how do you go about making these all important contacts??

[witchdoctor]

Pilot Pete,

Good post. I've met lots of wannabees (and spend a lot of time browsing here looking for snippets that may lead to an opening) and I'm always surprised and disappointed by the number that would sell their own grandmothers to get a position, let alone stab a friend in the back on the way.

I think that is a pity. My frist break came from some info a good friend put my way, and I have never hesitated to do the same for others that I meet. I take the view that one day, should they find themselves in a position to help, that they will seek to do a friend a favour over some stranger they've never met. I'm happy to share information with my friends regarding contacts and opportunities, as if I am unsuccessful I would consider it the next best thing to have a friend land the job instead.

On the subject of using friends to get some inside assistance, I wouldn't seek to do that unless I had discussed it first, and they were happy to talk in positive terms about you. There is nothing worse than having somebody approach you seeking an informal appraisal of an aquaintance who you think is a muppet, but who is obviously hoping that you will say nice things about them. It can be mutually embarassing when they subsequently fall flat on their face, or otherwise disgrace themselves.

[little-paddy]

Pilot Pete............... Once more your words of wisdom are bang on the mark. Thanks for keeping us wannabees encouraged with sensible down to earth posts.

All the best

L-P

[Pnooze]

Pilot Pete, a good post

MikeAlphaBravo, everyone you meet is potentially a good contact. The guy you do your PPL with could end Chief Pilot one day. My old instructor is now a trainer with a big charter outfit, and whilst i have a good job, airlines do go under from time to time.
As a group, pilots tend to be similiar in terms of personality, hobbies, and drinking ability, and it is therefore fairly easy to make friends. One day you are in a flying club bar, having a beer with a skint student, and 10 years later you bump into him in a bar in Hong Kong whilst on a layover, but in different airlines. It happens surprisingly often
:D

[Pilot Pete]

Thank you for your compliments guys, it's posts like this that make it a pleasure to pass on info 'from the inside'.

As Pnooze said, we do tend to be a group of 'personable' individuals (obviously with notable exceptions!) as a generalisation. Just to add to his post I was once told by my first Fleet Manager (who became Chief Pilot shortly after) "Be careful who you p**s off on the way up.......beacause you never know when you might meet them again on the way back down!" as I am sure many airline pilot managers will know to their detriment when their outfit perhaps fell on hard times and they find themselves applying for a position to one of their ex-colleagues whom they never got on with...........

witchdoctor has also made a very good point about being genuine with people and always approaching them before asking for any kind of favour. The thing is, if you are doing your networking right, they will probably approach you with the offer of a recommendation for something that they have heard is about to happen in their outfit, rather than you having to 'fish' to get it.

G-Lost is so right in the implications of offering a recommendation for someone. This ties in well with fr8ter boi's comments about CRM:- more and more airlines are trying to employ the right people, rather than just the licence/ rating etc. He's dead right in that this starts with the selection process and continues with sim assessments and so on. Some airlines have 'tick' sheets for your performance on selection, where many different aspects are assessed. One company I know of has such a sheet for their sim assessments. The vast majority of the boxes are CRM related skills rather than handling/ SOP type assessments, which surprises many guys who perhaps hadn't realised the emphasis of the test.

MikeAlphaBravo asks where is he to make such contactsbarring loitering round airports etc. Well, that's exactly what you do have to do, but not in a 'loitering' kind of way! If you want to make contacts in aviation you need to be in aviation. You simply won't make them by sending handfulls of CVs off indisriminately and hounding Ops departments on the telephone. Like I said earlier, look at the Thomas Cook guys who got themselves jobs in Ops and made contacts that way.

Two of the best networkers I know of (who will recognise themselves if they read this) are one who is studying for his ATPLs at the moment and who works for a refuellers at a UK airport. He goes out of his way to provide a good service to crews, nothing is too much for him and he always makes the effort to chat to the crewmembers who are doing the walkaround checks. He is extremely polite and sometimes gets into conversations over technical things and pilots being pilots, they love to help 'educate' him. Quite often this leads to recognition when he fuels for them again, then a name, then an invite to have a look round if time permits and the conversation naturally gets round to him doing his ATPLs.

The other chap is an FI who works on a freelance basis and has gone out of his way to make himself available to several schools at a number of different airfields. Some of these are out of the way, some are major airports. When he's in the out of the way places his wanders around chatting to people in hangars and the like. A simple admiration of someone's unusual aircraft soon reveals that they run a biz jet or something as well and then they find out he's got a twin and IR rating and it just so happens that they might be looking for a guy like him.............................

Many pilots will know of similar stories. It all comes down to how much do you want to do this job for a living? Saying you really want to be a pilot is (in the current market) simply not enough. Go out and make the sacrifices (usually in monetary terms) and start to make it happen. If you look and try hard enough breaks will come your way, the secret then being NOT TO SCREW UP THE OPPORTUNITY!

PP

[P1 Forever]

Thanks very much for your input guys, especially PP, to a fairly interesting thread.

I suppose then that the above statement is true. Although I thought I would be proved wrong, but anyway who said that job hunting and life was fair!!!

Thanks again.

P1

[Pilot Pete]

I suppose then that the above statement is true.

Be careful with blanket statements. It is true with certain operators and not with others. Just like networking. You (or I) can't say that networking will always work, it won't. So I wouldn't recommend giving up sending CVs and phoning airlines, rather increase your potential to get called for a selection by adding networking (the bit most people aren't doing effectively) to your armoury.

I know it can appear a thankless task getting PFO letters, 'no thanks' on the phone or even worse 'don't ever contact this airline again!' but all your effort will get no reward until that one phone call asking if you are available for interview...............

So keep up the effort and make sure you are 'managing' the task as efficiently as you can and not leaving any stones unturned. It will happen and the market is definitely improving.

PP

[Ebee]

Though the above statement appears to be true in a majority of cases, I am learning the hard way that the contrary may also be true in some cases.
Much of what i'm about to say is conjecture but I have good reason to beleive it, possibly beacuse im feeling particularly bitter at the mo. but maybe because there's a chance that it's true.

Applied for the Britannia cadet sponsorship recently. My father is a senior captain for the company so I called a number of his colleagues to get some feedback on my application answers. Each of them told me that I was wasting my time and that a number of pilots' sons have applied in the past with very strong applications and had been immediately rejected. Taking little notice of this mere conspiracy theory I completed my application, had it checked and corrected by a number of pilot friends, psychology and language students and low and behold I was rejected.
I don't want to blow my own trumpet but I have an excellent academic record including a physics degree, appropriate flying experience and bags of relevant work experience much of which within the aviation industry. Maybe my application just wasn't good enough or maybe the mere conspiracy theory is more than just a theory.
So there you have it, an example where who you know can actually work against you.....allegedly!!!

Back to the drawing board for me!!

[ChocksAwayUK]

Sounds familiar Ebee. My dad was a senior BA captain (retired after 34 years last month) and told me that this would count against me (i.e. application filed in the WPB) if i was to apply to BA.

Isn't there also a story about instant rejection to one of Lord King's relatives too?

All conjecture of course.

[Pilot Pete]

Does the application form ask specifically if your father works for the airline? If it doesn't then you could always not tell them. I would imagine that for sponsorship the airlines want to appear 'whiter than white' and not stand accused of giving positions to 'sons of pilots'. Certainly direct entry is different in Britannia, I can think of one son who joined recently.

PP