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rock737
7th Apr 2004, 21:31
Hi all,

I am currently aged 17 studying for my A levels at a 6th form college in maths, physics, french and geography. I would like to ask a question for the pilots out there as to which is the best route they'd reccomed for me to go down to become a commercial airline pilot. I hav'nt the money to train privately at a flying school, i'm either looking for sponsorship or some other scheme which means i have to pay little. I had thought of other possible options such as join the university air sqaudron to get through training or join the RAF although the fact that i would have to stay for 12 years minimum as pay back for them training me made me think again. I'm very intrested in aircraft, i know a lot of stuff quite a few people would not know about aircraft as i'm really interested in commercial aviation, so i think i would know more than the average prospective pilot. I have heard it is pretty vital to have in depth knowledge of aircraft to get you a job over somebody else. My GCSE grades were 7 Bs, 1 C and 2 Ds.

I wondered what the pilots out there think are my best options for a future career as a pilot? as i really need help in making a decision. My aim is to join a company like British Airways or even ryanair, possibly one of the charter airlines.

Thanks in advance

redsnail
7th Apr 2004, 22:04
g'day,
there's many ways to skin a cat.
At the moment there aren't any true sponsorships out there. There might be in a couple of years time but no one knows. In other words, don't bet on it.
So, that leaves self funding or the RAF/military.
You can head off to uni and find a UAS squadron. From what I have heard, this is a good thing. Don't write off the return of service thing. In the time it will take for you to discharge that there WILL be another recession and pilot redundancies.
The industry cycles in about 7-10 years. We are just clawing out of one so you can do the maths.
If you don't go the mil way then you'll have to self fund it. Many will advise a degree to earn the money and to have a fall back IF it doesn't work out. I would agree but also look at trades such as licensed aircraft maintenance engineers, plumbing, car mechanic etc. Whatever you like the look of. Believe me it will not be a waste of time.
If you go the self funded route, keep an eagle eye on the economy and plan for the worst.
If I were you, I would plan on doing it modular if you have to raise the funds yourself. This does limit your financial risk.
You are young. You have time on your side.
In the mean time, head down to your local airfield and get to know as many people as you can. Get your hands dirty in the hangars and the like.
It will be beneficial to you.
Before you go too far with it, get your health checked out. To do a Class one medical costs about 400 quid. Another way around it is to visit your local GP and get tested for diabetes and hernias. Eyesight, colourblindness and visual accuity.
You can find out the parameters from the CAA website under the medical section. (note, this isn't the same as a class one medical, but a cheaper way of finding out if you'll pass one)
The career is as varied as the way to raise cash. You can go to Africa and do charter there, you can instruct. The limit is your imagination and courage.
Good luck.

Fanois
8th Apr 2004, 00:52
I wish I'd asked the question when i was 17!

I'm 22 and just finishing a degree in aerospace engineering. My first flying was as an air cadet in a glider, then 20 hours of RAF flying scholarship. I was in a UAS for 3 years and did about 70 hours with them, following 20 hours of RAF flying scholarship which was awesome. Fantastic, highly experienced instructors, and i even got paid for it (to an extent)! If you do go to uni, and it sounds like you're bright enough, its awesome. i've grown a lot, and although flying's still all i really want to do, i've at least seen what's out there and made some fantastic mates - and there are always plenty of girls around too ; )

As well as the UAS flying (aeros, IF, nav (including Low Level), formation, all dual and solo as well apart from IF) its an awesome social scene as well. The RAF dont expect you to pay for medicals etc so you can get an idea of if you are medically 'ok' without spending £400. It's also a good chance to experience competitive interviews and selection procedures. And I don't know, but i presume that RAF medicals are at least as stringent as CAA ones. And, of course, you'll find out if you're any good at flying!

I've looked at flight training schools and it seems that any way you look at it you end up coughing up up to 60k - as redsnail says. Even CTC McAlpine, who train for (i think) Easyjet and Thomas Cook may seem like 'sponsors', but effectively you pay back any training expenses over the first 6/7 years of work out of your wages. The bonus, i suppose, is a pretty definite job at the end of the training - imagine taking out a 60k loan, doing the training to get your frozen ATPL then not being able to get a job. You could end up flipping burgers for decades to try and make it back! Another reason to get a degree/qualification i guess.
All i can talk about is my experience, and i hope this helps.
keep asking questions and learning from other people/their mistakes.
You don't sound too keen on the RAF, and it is a lifestyle so don't do it if you don't want to. But the UAS is non obligatory for the first 2 years - it's a 'try it, you might like it' thing.

anyway, time for me to stop blithering

good luck!

Wee Weasley Welshman
8th Apr 2004, 08:27
Sponsorship is highly unlikely as is getting into a UAS unfortunately.

If you go down the Modular route of training expect to spend about £50,000. Start by spending £5,000 on a PPL over the next couple of years - see if you like it and have any aptitude for it.

Then I'd forget University with its crippling costs. Get on something useful like an engineering based Modern Apprenticeship, get earning a wage, live at home, save like whale and aim to get a CPL IR Frzn ATPL by the time you are 24 and not be in any debt.

Hard work but then anything in life worth doing usually is.

Good luck,

WWW

rock737
8th Apr 2004, 08:30
Hi

Cheers for your replies guys, i think i've ruled out the R.A.F but CTC McAlpine i've heard of them can anyone shed any further light on them because that seems like a possible option although i don't want to be stuck without a job at the end of it, also University Air Squadron seems a good option too but if anyone can shed any furhter light on that too it would be good its nice to have a variety of opinions, i did'nt understand the part about the UAS being only non obligatory for first 2 years, does it mean you have to stay for 4 years if you stay longer than 2 years? Also your R.A.F scholarship in which you did 20 hours how did you do that was it just after air cadets and how come you could leave so soon or is it because they were taking you for a specific period of time? I was thinking about air cadets is it really that advantagous though?

Cheers

itchy kitchin
8th Apr 2004, 10:28
Hello.
I have just finished training at bournemouth and the school i was at was in partnership with McAlpine. The training that they do is orientated towards getting young chaps like you up to scratch for RH seat jobs. From what i gather (but don't take my word for it) a lot of the training is in a multi (Beech Duchess) and i very much geared towards 2 crew operations. The course seems to be quite a different arrangement from the norm (PPL, CPL, IR, MCC etc) as are the financial arrangements. However, the sim is good, the A/C are great (I did my CPL and IR in them) and the instructers are good. Its run by a chap called Anthony Mollison, a very helpful bloke- well worth speaking to him.
I hope this helps- as i say i was at the "sister-school" PAT, who are excellent, but we shared aircraft and sims etc. Met plenty of the MCAlpine students who said they were very happy.
Oh yes, I think you still do the ab initio in Middle Earth sorry, New Zealand.

six-sixty
8th Apr 2004, 11:09
Hi Rock, I can't disagree with anything that's been said above purely out of interest I am intrigued as to why you'd rather fly commercially than with the RAF? I did an RAF scholarship myself years ago, planned to join but then lost my medical for ages. I bitterly regret that I'll never get the chance.

I suppose there's some emotional politics around how our armed forces are used these days but for a young'un I would have thought the potential for excitement and variety would be massively more appealing and arguably more demanding than commercial airline work, even if you're trapped in it for 12 years.

Sfunny I dismissed commercial flying for years after being ineligible for the RAF as I thought it'd be too dull and now I can't wait!

Good luck, you've got loads and loads of time to make the right and a few wrong choices.
SS

Fanois
8th Apr 2004, 11:55
I got into a UAS, so can you. there are 12-15 (can't remember) UAS's nationwide, and as an example my UAS took on about 20 pilots this year. If you do go to uni, get in touch with its affilliated UAS, the recruiting process normally starts at the freshers fair at the beginning of the academic year. Howvever, i would advise against going to uni just what to go to a UAS - what if you didn't get in?

Basically, UAS's are aimed at 'attracting high calibre individuals' and wetting their appetite for a career in the air force. As such, on joining an air squadron there is no commitment to join the RAF whatsoever, but flying is expensive and so if you want to stay on for more than 2 years (if you don't seem interested in joining at all, it would be frowned upon to complete the - second to none - flying course of 70hrs and then p*ss off to the airlines) you need to commit in some way to a career in the RAF i.e a bursary, but only at that 2 year point. Of course, standards are expected to be high, and if you can't cut it at the flying the UAS can end your membership. Equally if you don't like it, so can you.

I went to Southampton UAS, check out www.southamptonuas.co.uk for the official spiel! You'll also see that there are far more opportunities involved than flying. Some of my fondest memories are from my UAS time, summer camp at RAF St Mawgan in Cornwall, a mile from Newquay, for example! Awesome flying, as well...

And if you do do a degree, make sure it's a worthwhile one i.e one that employers hold in high regard.

It's your choice, take all advice with a pinch of salt - i obviously had a riot on my UAS, maybe some people didnt, so in that way i guess i'm biased!

I'd best stop work avoiding and get back to my dissertation now, keep asking those questions!

F

scroggs
8th Apr 2004, 13:55
A look in the Military Aircrew forum will show you that the RAF is not too fussed about recruiting new guys just now - some of those currently in training may lose their aircrew status (and possibly their RAF commissions) because of the forthcoming defence cuts. Whether this will have an impact on the UAS system is a not yet clear, but don't imagine that the RAF or a UAS would take you on just because you fancy trying it out!

There is a great deal of information about the CTC McAlpine training scheme in this forum, you only need to search for it. Essentially, the training is funded by a loan (about 63,000 pounds) which is planned to be repaid once you are in employment. There is no guarantee of employment for those who enter the scheme, so you could find yourself bearing that debt with no job at the other end of it, just like any other self-funded wannabe. Study the info here, and think about it carefully before you leap off thinking that this is the answer to all your prayers.

There are a few partial sponsorships around which leave you with a smaller (though still substantial) bill to pay, but they absorb maybe 12-20 people a year. You have to be incredibly fortunate to land one of these deals. There are no fully funded, debt-free civilian sponsorships. At all. None. So forget them.

So, you have to face the fact that you are almost certainly going to have to fund this training yourself if you want to be a commercial pilot and that means you've got to earn a decent living right from leaving school, college or university to pay for modular training (maybe 45k). So think carefully about WWW's advice.

Scroggs

Edit: the latest on the RAF's student pilots facing the axe is that about 30% of the holding pool of pilots will be restreamed to rotary or multi-engine. It's not known how long it will take the system to absorb all those awaiting training, but it's likely to be years rather than months. At least no-one (at this stage) is going to lose their jobs. This will seriously affect recruiting for some time to come, I would suggest.

rock737
9th Apr 2004, 09:30
Cheers guys, thanks for your replies, i shall greatly bare this in mind when considering my future career options

Hansard
9th Apr 2004, 11:44
rock737

The Coventry-based Atlantic Group runs a cadet scheme. A search on PPRuNe and elsewhere on the internet will throw up lots of information/contact details. Don't believe everything you read about the scheme on PPRuNe - do your homework, get the facts and make up your own mind on whether or not it would be right for you. It's not the glamorous side of the industry and the candidate who isn't willing to get his hands dirty hasn't a hope of being selected.