SQ getting SAS Crew for the 744F . True?? [Archive]

Factseeker

10th Apr 2004, 10:14

Interesting comments regarding SAS and SIA, displaying lack of knowledge, or shall we say "wishful thinking".
First on bankruptcy: SAS is one of the most "cash-rich" airlines in Europe (as is SIA in SE Asia). Although SAS have been loosing money for a few years, a new and leaner organization is in place, with more effective agreement with the various unions.
SAS will prove to be a formidable and agressive competitor over the next 3 - 5 years, and the low-cost carriers better not be penni-less when they go against the cash cows..! So let the future determine who goes bankrupt..!

As to the comment regarding quality, I believe that SIA and SAS safely can be labelled "high quality airlines", both when it comes to equipment, maintenance, operations and the quality of pilots.

So this arrangement of having the SAS surplus pilots fly for some years at SIA and then return home sounds to be an excellent arrangement for all parties, be it SAS, SIA Cargo, the Scandinavian Pilot Unions and ALPA-S.

Scandinavian0073

10th Apr 2004, 15:13

hi,

it does not seem that the SAS pilots are offered anything, but what is offered in the latest Flight International Magazine.

if there is consensus among the pilots in SIA on this issue, I would expect the SIA union to take contact with the SAS pilot union, which is highly organized

if there are any individuals at SIA, who has any thoughts on SAS pilots coming at this time - please state them, Iam sure they will be of interest to potential SAS pilots wanting to go to SIA.

sincerely

Factseeker

10th Apr 2004, 21:29

Scandinavian0073 has his own opinions, based on heresay.
Let me enlighten you, based on contacts close to the action:

There are no special contracts for SAS pilots or any other pilots when it comes to SIA Cargo. It is a set contract, valid for all, approved by ALPA-S (Pilot union of Singapore).

And for the SAS pilot unions, they have proven to be of no use, as they have been very effective in negotaiting deals that makes the pilots happy, but out of a job, due to high cost. Who wants that..?

But SAS pilots at SIA is a good deal, as it will provide SIA Cargo with high quality pilots for a certain numer of years, and then they go back to Scandinavia, and the SIA pilots takes over.
It is called WIN-WIN. Two quality airlines cooperating, best of both worlds. Everybody is happy.

BusyB

11th Apr 2004, 04:54

Factseeker,
I have no problem with the quality of SAS in any respect but I feel that you know very little about SIA apart from their PR. Try doing a little digging in PPRuNe over the past 2-3 yrs and perhaps you will become a little more informed!

sia sniffer

11th Apr 2004, 05:42

Interesting to be a fly on the cockpit wall, when typical SIA Capt Kok flies with new FO Haraldsssson. Capt K a highly opinionated guy regarding his own self esteem verses FO H who is used to an open and co-operative flying environment.

Result?... Capt K loses face cos in reality he is a gutless vacant guy with strong anti expat values (called Singaporean values), continues for the next 10 hours of flight without saying a thing except a few grunts and slobbering into his maggi mee. F/O'sssson becomes frustrated, what the fcuk is this guys problem, and tries to communicate. Result, Capt K insists "sssson has insulted Singapore, his family and his superior. Arse licking would go down a treat. F/O H not happy, but realizes he has to carry on for the next 17 days together.

On return to stinksville, Capt K rings his mates up, to brag about how he put this young cocky SAS guy in his place,and recommends that his Capt mates do the same. F/O Haraldsssson tells his mates that this is not what he read when he looked on PPRUNE.

Well Laddie, this is reality in SIA, and seeing & living it is believing. Been there, done that. Err, no thanks.

Factseeker

11th Apr 2004, 07:16

Hello BusyB,

Maybe I have not followed the rumours. But I closely follow the industry and individual airlines, such as: Training practices, operational practices, CRM programmes, involvement in IATA etc.
And in my world SIA shines.
But I do not work for them, and I am sure that the Singaporeans are demanding to work for, and do not waste their money. Which is probably why SIA is still thriving while the "big salary spenders" fall by the wayside, one by one.

BusyB

11th Apr 2004, 07:37

FactSeeker,
You certainly seem to have followed the "Rumours" of operational practices, maintenance and CRM. Close friends working there have advised me of all these as opposed to what SIA would have you believe!

Phil Squares

11th Apr 2004, 10:59

Just q quick question. Didn't ALPAS agree to let the company spin off the cargo operation and in effect wash their hands of the whole thing? It seems to me there is a little buyer's remorse going on here.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought ALPAS represented the pilots at SIA. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

millerscourt

11th Apr 2004, 11:04

Factseeker

What an inappropriate name you have.

SIA is NOT Cash rich anymore as they wasted their $2 Billion they had on Virgin and Air NZ and Ansett. They had to go to the Markets a years or so ago to get $1 Billion due to the late CEO's disastrous policies.

The only people who will be happy with the " Viking Hordes" joining SIA will be the SQ Generals who will use this to drive down T & C's even further thanks to this invasion.

I have no quarrel with anyone joining SIA who has resigned his job and taking his chances with SQ but the SAS deal is totally different.

F/O's joining can expect 4 years with no sectors!! SQ is a Lazy Captains Airline. The Local F/O's love doing all the paperwork and walkaround checks etc etc. I can see some highly hacked off F/O's in due course but I presume as you have been B744 Rated you have no choice but to stay the 4 Years.

SAS is a highly Unionised Airline so those who join SQ will be in for real shock.

It is not WIN WIN for the Pilots at SQ!!

By no stretch of the imagination can SQ Pilots be called overpaid bearing in mind we all do 850++ hours pa plus a lot of positioning which all Cargo joiners will do in Economy half way around the world.

Phil Squares

You are joking I assume???

Alpha-S has no real say in anything due to the Draconian Labour laws in Singapore.

Now that the Armchair Generlas have got the bit between their teeth they are going for the jugular.

LKY has entered the fray by deporting Capt Goh thus doing a 49er with a single stroke.

Factseeker

11th Apr 2004, 11:51

Well, well, I sniffed you out of your busy foxholes, didn't I..? (A SIA sniffer with 150 postings, you must have too much free time, or maybe retired..?)

Very opinionated. Seems that you are putting your "anglosaxon" noses too high in the air. Try a more humble apporach..!

Facts are found by research, not by listening to a few gripers, they are there in all airlines, especially those with a large contingent of expats, often coming from the heart of the Empire to "provide essential services".

A little quick research of vikings will tell you that their reputation as rapers and pillagers are basically wrong, and that they were merchants and "diplomats", sailing all over Europe and the Middle East as traders. Had some problems with the English, so sailed up Thames to teach them a lesson. Easy job..!

SAS pilots have already been all over the world on expat assignments. They actually built THAI, and had a large pilot contigent there up until mid nienties. SAS pilots assisted in the build up of EVA. And you find them in Oman, Emirates etc.
Scandinavians normally get along with people, through mutual respect and accepting others as being on "the same level". We do not have a "colonial history" to take care of.

SAS pilots will be fine in SIA, and SIA will appreciate their quality, easy going style and humour. And what do they get: Good airline, modern equipment. Good people in the front seats of 744Fs. Airline run by management. (Union running did not prove to effective, did it).
And a cash rich airline, still. Losses were cutt effectively at Vigin and AZ, no big problem.
Singapore nice city, clean, safe. Singaporeans are proud, corruption is actually miniscule compared to other places where SAS pilots have worked through the years.

Gentlemen, you seem to have a very negative bias. What happened to you and your friends..? Messed it up..?

Lastly: Fact is achieved by collecting data from unbiased sources. Broad and many. The opposite of facts are actually specific rumours from subjective induvidual sources.

But, as I have learned here, it is great entertainment..! So keep it up..!

Cosmo

11th Apr 2004, 13:07

Facktseeker,

These are just general comments, not aimed at any specific region or company.

No offence intended but be careful of naivety. Scandinavia is a world of it's own as regards the almost non-existent level of corruption, independence of the judiciary, rights of the individual etc. The worth of a written contract, which we take for granted up north might not have the same value abroad. This is, I suspect, the message that some contributors to this forum are trying to get across to those moving to the expat world. Pause for a second and listen to what's being said, then make your own opinion.
As regards working in a different cultural environment, it can be surprisingly difficult to adapt, even if one tries. The openness that one is used to might be non-existent, and it might be difficult to keep this in mind at times. And besides, it is not necessarily a question of you accepting others as being on the same level, it could be that you are not accepted to their level. Your contention could be interpreted as naivety, against which I cautioned.

Cheers,
Cosmo

Brenoch

11th Apr 2004, 13:12

Bah!!

Not a colonial history? Not if your history is only 100 years. Wasn't the swedish southern border somewhere around Istanbul in the 1700:s??

Check your facts factseeker...

Factseeker

11th Apr 2004, 15:15

Thanks Cosmo,

I find your comments valid, and it is good to caution people. As I mentioned, the SAS pilots have been out flying for many companies. Nigeria Airways on the B747 was a great experience..!

What I am reacting to, however, is negativity. Maybe I am somewhat naive, but I have seen a winter night before. And many different cultures and operational environments. And when I look back, I would not have missed one of them..!

As I understand from my contacts with a few SAS pilots, they were actually receiving cautions and warnings, in order for them to really examine and try to understand what 4 years in Singapore would mean. This included information sessions, Q&As etc.

Not from Cosmo, but another: I must rethink my geography, I never knew Sweden had borders to Turkey in the 1700s. Interesting statement. Actually I think it was the Swedish "expat soldiers" who took some long assignments (4 year contracts, no vacation, no free home base travel, interesting work..!)

BusyB

11th Apr 2004, 15:25

FS,
You are welcome to believe what you want. I don't work for SIA but have good friends that do, I have worked for SAS (wetleased) and have great respect for their pilots.
You however have not lived up to your nomme de plume and have a very one-sided view of SIA. That will be your problem. I hope that other SAS pilots will have the sense to be much more thorough in their investigations (you do sound like a paid recruiting agent).
The fact that you did not post on the Far East forum for more info shows your lack of interest in an unbiased view.

Factseeker

11th Apr 2004, 19:20

Dear Busy B.

Your comments betray you and where you come from.
If a person is positive to SIA, based on research and quite a lot of friends, then he sounds like a "paid recruiting agent".
You, and your peers in "SIA busting", what do you see yourselves as..? I have a few suggestions, but will refrain, it is not constructive speculating in ulterior motives.

I happen to have friends in SAS, in SIA and in many other airlines. And I prefer to be a little more neutral in my starting point.

This does not mean that everything SIA is or stand for is fine and dandy. But look around you. Even SAS and SAS management certainly is taking a bashing from pilots these days, very much so. The same goes for a majority of airlines.
So what is so special about SIA. It is an airline, and I repeat my statement:

It is a well run operation.
It has a modern, well maintained fleet.
Infrastructure is nice (training, crew base etc.)
It operates from a "civilized" city, with a lot of opportunities and places to go nearby. (Multi-cultural, something fore everybody)

So, in this world of imperfects, it is by far the worst to go for. And for SAS pilots, retaining seniority and other perks, why not..? They can just look at this as a opportunity to get some change, even in temperature..!

FS

John Deere dr.

11th Apr 2004, 20:15

Besides all the positive things , mentioned from Factseeker, which I agree with (have been to Singapore many times and like the place very much ) you cannot forget to think about flight safety, when putting 2 such different cultures, together in a cockpit. We all know, that it´s utmost importance that you have a good athmosphere in this little room, for so many hours. Otherwise things can go cathastrophig, which the past has well proven.
Is this delaying SIA pilots from promotion, or do they just not have the hours needed ?
JD dr.

Scandinavian0073

12th Apr 2004, 09:26

hi

Iam quite sure that a lot of the SAS guys are seriously considering the move to stay at SIA --- if offered.

Factseeker

12th Apr 2004, 21:26

So you thought that Millerscourt was a SIA person. Not so, he is in all the threads, all over the Internet. Basically, he is a (probably retired) pilot pewing his bad experiences all over the place.

Take this from the Emirates site, quote "Millerscourt":

You are quite correct in your assessment of Airline jobs in the Gulf/Middle East regettably. The T &C's are now so bad that those from the Western world should perhaps give it a miss unless for reasons quoted by Bigmouth.

Unquote.

And there are a lot more. Millerscourt is all over the place, telling you "how bad things are".

Rumor mongor, no substance. Put him in "junk mail"..!

FS

Another message "quote": Thanks FS, about time somebody like you got around, the PPPs were getting the upper hand.
PPP = Permanent Pizzedoff Pilots. (Mostly anglosaxon expats..!)
Unquote.

A lot of pilots in SE Asia are actually sick and tired of the negative inputs, probably from the Anglo Saxon Officers Club. In AHK, SQ, CX, CAL and others: Leave us alone. We are happy, go home to GB (Or Ryanair, EasyJet etc. You will love their T&Cs, their working conditions. And around the corner, you will find fish and chips. Forget StinkCity..! Not to mention HKG or BKK, which stinks even more..!

millerscourt

13th Apr 2004, 07:31

Factseeker

Why this fixation with "Anglo Saxons"?? You keep repeating yourself.

My only other thread has been the EK Middle East as I was ex GF and was considering EK as a DEC being A340 Rated in view of the deteriorating conditions in SQ not helped by the Singapore Dollar's decline and the new CA being thrust down our throats not helped by this large influx of SAS Pilots. You totally ignore this fact in your inimitable style.

I realise not being an "Anglo Saxon" that English is not your first language and I am trying to make allowances for that fact but you are making it very difficult to continue in this vein.

The only reason that SIA are taking SAS Pilots is because not enough interest has been shown by others in joining based on the conditions on offer.

For someone not in the Far East you seem to be very opinionated and totally blinded by your opinions to what others are trying to say and get through that skull of yours.

Soft Altitude

13th Apr 2004, 09:17

Excellent threads Millerscourt.
Factseeker, you really sound like someone who's come up with an idea and is so enthusiastic about it, regardless if it is a good one.
No worries, welcome to S'pore and please bring in all your enthusiasm and I'll talk to you ... let me see ... same time in 2006, on pprune of course, Can ? Because I'm outta here in a matter of weeks anyway. Cheers.:cool:

RatherBeSailing

13th Apr 2004, 16:56

Having read all of Factseekers comments and his profile, it dawned on me who he is. Why, it's Mr. Otto Lagerhus himself, the man responsible for the SAS-SIA Cargo deal! Everything fits: Former SAS Captain in Norway who spent many years in SAS management to later retire early and start his own consulting company, with SIA as a previous customer, no less. You can all check it out on www.lac.no

Sorry Otto for exposing you, but I thought it only fair to all the readers of this thread.

Off to the boatyard...

Rather Be Sailing :cool:

Ramrise

13th Apr 2004, 17:04

Ratherbesailing,

I think you are right.:cool: :cool:

Rgds,

Ramrise

Factseeker

13th Apr 2004, 18:51

Rather be sailing performed an excellent speculation. I am now a consultant "responsible for the SIA - SIA Cargo deal..!".

Because I have all the info.
Which actually all is available on the SAS Intranet for 2500 pilots..! At least that is what I am told, as I do not have the required token for SAS. But SAS pilots do.

You really impress me. We will never be able to expose RatherBeSailing, or is it really Mr. Rather Should Be Sailing of Dubai..? Then we are smelling a emi Rat..!

Keep it up, the more you write, the more I am convinced that you actually are "no-fact". Why do you not create a few aliases, too. In order to "substantiate" your claims.

Actually I am the King of Sweden. And tomorrow I will be the Emperor, sailing up the Thames, and then heading south conquering Istanbul.

Great show, excellent entertainment. As said, keep it up. I shall..!

Factseeker

14th Apr 2004, 06:35

The intelligent observer will have seen that this thread is deteriorating into pure allegations and speculations.

However, I think we are a little more enlightened regarding the issue of SAS pilots to SIA, and some of the worst speculations should have been put to rest.

No more to wring out of this subject, it seems, as other issues and allegations takes first place.

So, Factseeker rides on into the sunset, for another quest for the real facts.

But you do not get rid of him, he surfaces tomorrow, in another shape, but the same quest,

Maybe Zorro..?

LN-PILOT

14th Apr 2004, 09:10

There are certainly a lot of bull**** out there.

Reg, SIA-SAS mixed cockpit, I'm certain all will have a good and well understanding of eachother, they are all professionals.

SAS has been around the world long before some of the other large(r) airliners, and they have done a great job so far.

What about looking 3 years back in time or more?????????

High Speed Descent

14th Apr 2004, 09:48

Good Job Rather be Sailing:ok: :ok: :ok:

I checked out the site and by golly you could be right.

This is going to spread like WILDFIRE!!!!!:E :E :E

In fact, it started already right here in Europe on a Night Stop...you know how crew just love a good story (goes well with Beers!!).:cool: :cool:

Cheers,
HSD

PS Maybe he rode into the sunset and fell off a cliff....poor horse!!!:{ :{

422

15th Apr 2004, 08:57

Looks like another shafting to the locals.

But "unlucky" half-shafting... to prolong the agony.

This is to remind all locals that , it is unwise to
say: the grass has stopped growing there.

Pls. do not tell the emperor that he has no clothes..

damm, these lot never learn do they!!!!

In the slot

16th Apr 2004, 04:42

FS...
You seem to be very confident in your interpretation and "understanding" of what goes on in SIA....
How many people do you know that work there?? Captains or First Officers??
I'm not entering into details, seeing as you only seem to want to hear positives, but SHOULD you decide to go, I think you may find a few unexpected surprises, and some of your views may be ammended!
You have a lot t learn!
Good luck if you go.....it wont be easy for you (esp if you are an F/O).....

highcirrus

3rd May 2004, 12:39

Factseeker

As we are all waiting with bated breath, here in Singapore, would there be any chance of a reply to my post of 20 April 2004 in the Far East section, as follows:

Amongst all your hyperbole of late, I haven’t actually seen any comment that you may have considered making in respect of the 5 April posting of jstars2, featured on page 9 of this thread and which he/she quoted from another, previous thread, entitled The Facts about SQ!.

As you have so much to say on the subject of SIA and its recruiting/remuneration policies, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all here in SIA with your valued comment on that post’s content?

CDB.A300

3rd May 2004, 15:42

Sorry for the poor SAS crew !
Good luck to all of them

Mack Number

3rd May 2004, 15:51

Guys...just wait 'til they head out to buy the latest Volvo station wagon (estate car) and/or talk with the admissions director for UWC or OFS school regarding their childrens schooling. Very nasty shock coming, but I guess it's better than being unemployed!

Flathatter

1st Jun 2004, 06:41

Just picked up a rumor that SA has committed a fair sized blunder. Seems they hired a number of furloughed guys who hadn´t flown in a while. After putting them through groundschool they suddenly realized these guys didn´t have the currency to qualify for local license requirements, so they very unceremoniously got the boot again.
Mighty amateurish performance by a major airline and a real slap in the face to the pilots involved.

Cap 56

1st Jun 2004, 11:57

Mach Number

You are quite right, it’s better than being unemployed.

Safety does not matter anymore these days simply because the general public has no collective memory of it.

People get killed by the hundreds every day, who cares?

If the SAS guys are unhappy, in the end it may do them good as they will appreciate even more the Scandinavian system when they return home, even if that means they have to quit flying and do something else.

People say: "perception is reality" as long as this does not mean "individual perception is reality" there is nothing wrong with it.

Fitting in with SQ is a question of adaptation; certain cultures have more problems with it than others.

If you look at what happens in the European Union you should understand what I mean.

I have worked with Scandinavians and must say that if I had to make a choice it would not be a difficult one. You never know of course but, the probability you get it right is certainly not against them.

airbus340_321

1st Jun 2004, 21:22

Hi,

I think they all knew they would be in for some surprises - that was part of the drill seeking new pastures -

but i also think they were in for surprises they did not expect -

being major union busters (although the concept of union seems different in Spore)
some contract issues etc
not fullfilled CDR expectations
pax fleet, cargo issues - type of aircraft

scandinavians are very adaptable straight forward in many ways - in the last years - they have been to Africa middle east , europe, asia

middle east, hong kong seems more interesting at the time for adventure,

as far as I know - no SAS pilot has signed a contract yet -- it was a great disappointment to some I think -- but the contract was not justifiable --

so, all your worries ....

southernmtn

2nd Jun 2004, 03:01

Flathat,
You said, "Just picked up a rumor that SA has committed a fair sized blunder."

Which airline were you referring to, SIA or SAS?

LinebackerII

2nd Jun 2004, 18:16

I have been on the sidelines for the past few weeks watching the thread rise and fall like the tide. But, I can't let the remarks of airbus340_321 pass without comment.

1) Union busting is an extremely strong term. Kind of like calling someone a SCAB. Just to give you some insight, did you know ALPAS agreeded to SQ's plan of setting up a stand alone cargo airline? So, with that in mind, how do you justify calling someone a union buster?

2) I know for a fact there are some former SAS F/Os in training right now. As Mack Number wrote, it beats being unemployed.

3) Finally as to the "blunder". There hasn't been one. There has been 2 SAS F/Os who left. The reason was their dissatisfaction with the no command part of the deal. Either they didn't know or were hoping it changed, but they left after about a week of ground school. The non -400 pilots hired are all going through conversion training. Currency and recency isn't an issue.

Just thought I'd try to clear up some of the rumors/facts

EasyGo-Lucky?

2nd Jun 2004, 23:47

I hope FactSeeker has not retreated because I'd like to know how many years of work experience with SIA and years of living in Singapore his posts are based on??

If past or present SIA crew have negative views of SIA or Singapore why shouldn't they be allowed to pass on their views? Their motive is unselfish to advise other crew, yours on the other hand appears to be totally financially motivated.

Techman

2nd Jun 2004, 23:58

This is another example of why PPRuNe is to be for everybody.

I am sure that there is a huge divide between the public (passenger) view and the pilot view of certain airlines around the world.

Nice Hosties on tight uniforms might be pleasing to the eye, but says nothing about the true nature of the airline. Another example is the long running EK adventure in JNB thread.

Gladiator

3rd Jun 2004, 04:01

I second sia sniffer's post. The contents are accurate.

In fact the boys up North in Europe are very outspoken.

Do you all remember the SIA chap from Norway in 1991? Got murdered by bunch of Malays. Slight difference in culture, saw a woman and tried to be cute.

How about the other SIA chap from Norway? In 1993 he basically got fired from SIA because in a company party he said, "pass me a beer". It wasn't the statement that was the problem, the problem was, he asked 'Capt. Big Ace Ego how dare the white boy talked to me while eye balling me'.

You boys from North Europe mark our words.

CDRW

3rd Jun 2004, 05:52

So Gladiator - how many SAS "hopefulls" have been cast to the dogs??

Omark44

3rd Jun 2004, 23:38

Spoke to a friend working there now, (ten years), and he said there are a few F/Os, (previously retrenched), going through training who will eventually get endorsed, as F/Os on Expat. terms no chance of a command, been like that for the past twenty years at least. A couple of captains came out to SIN but didn't like the local interpretation of the contract and went home again. No great influx, no great eflux.