Describing an aviation icon:

[Prince of Dzun]

One of the nice things about the Malay language is its ability to describe in one word something that would require many words in English. Such a word is chomel which as far as I understand describes a young female who is adorable, pretty, cuddly and sweet. All these superlatives are rolled into one by the single word chomel. I've discussed the composition of chomel with Malay speaking friends and I've dared to suggest that chomel can be used to describe to a tee the Singapore Girl. They (my friends) say: "you cannot do this. " I counter by insisting that a 21 year old girl who is adorable , pretty, cuddly and sweet is most definitely chomel. This always leads to me again being told that I am wrong but when I ask "why am I wrong.." there is no answer. I'm simply given smiles and shrugging shoulders and the implication is that I just don't understand. I would like to put the question to you gentlemen who speak and comprehend classical Malay. The question is this. What is the real underlying reason (if there is one) that says chomel cannot be used to describe the Singapore Girl ??

Prince of Dzun

[CI54]

Dear Prince of Dzun,

As a native speaker of Malay, about as close a word in English to the word chomel (or comel) is 'cute'. We could say "Such a cute baby" or in Malay "Comelnya budak ni", but we will very rarely describe a person of slightly below adolescent age (8 years and above) as 'Comel'. So we as Malays will not describe a person of 18 or 21 or even 12 years of age as comel. We describe then as 'cantik'.

So, in my less than perfect understanding of Malay, we generally describe a toddler as comel and anything more than todler as cantik...

I'm sure there's a lot out there that will disagree, but I will enjoy the discussion...

Cheers

[rodondo4]

Here I'll dip my two pence .... take into account I only scraped through with my SPM Malay (come to think of it, I also scrapped points with my other subjects).

The word 'comel '(not spelt chomel) is rightly translated by CI54 to be 'cute. But I beg to differ that the word is not used to describe adult females. Usually we use 'Cantik' or 'Lawa' (for us Northerners) to describe REALLY beautiful girls/cars/freekicks/subject of the sentance. 'Comel' (pronounced CHOME by us Notherners) can be used for three situation (keadaan):
1. As CI54 says for children
2. To describe a cute girl (a notch under beautiful)
3. As a playful gesture, as cantik can be a bit too strong at times and more formal; hai....Comel awak dalam bakini ini (hey, you look cute in this bikini*wink*wink*)

I hope this helps to confuse you as I am confused by my own writing (no wonder I cannot get my thesis right!!!)

So to answer Prince of Dzun's question on the Singapore girl, you can describe her as Comel in context 2 &3.

[Prince of Dzun]

C154:

Many thanks for straightening out my understanding of Chomel.(my Malay dictionary spells it as Chomel). I must tell you that I wish my Malay was as good as your English. Would I be correct in thinking that perhaps Chomel is delineated by puberty in so far as Chomel may be used before puberty but not after.
I am not sure about cantik as it's not listed in my Malay dictionary. Do you mean chantek,as this describes a young lady who is both pretty and beautiful. However in my mind chantek does not fully convey all the other nice attributes that apply to a lovely 18 year old. If there is one word to do this then perhaps it's ratna. But then again this may be another case of "you can't do this". Ratna is indeed very flattering and I don't think there is a woman yet born who would not be pleased to be referred to as ratna. Afterall aren't we talking about compliments that describe.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun

P.S. For those of you who may be wondering ratna means "a lovely maiden princess." Thus we can say that the Singapore Girl qualifies, or does she!!!

rodondo4:
I've only just read your input and I am still trying to digest it and take it on board. One of the things that has me sratching my head is that both you and C154 have dropped the H from chomel and chantek. My dictionary spells them as chomel and chantek, surely my dictionary can't be wrong. It is written by a Malay intellectual of some standing. Is it a case of spelling and pronunication being different?
Regards,
Prince of Dzun

[CI54]

Prince of Dzun,

You seem to have grasped my explanation as I wished you would, dear Prince of Dzun. How I wish I could do that more often to the cadets that I train. However, I wish I can be totally confident with the description that I have given you. I can sleep better if that is the case.

If I remember correctly, the two spellings (chomel and chantek)are much more likely to come from Bahasa Indonesia dictionary. However, the pronounciation are the same with the Bahasa Malaysia equivalent. And they do convey the same meaning.

As for the word 'ratna', I have never come across the word being used as you have described it in Malaysia. That word is usually used as a name by the Malays. Again, I am quite sure the dictionary that you have is either an old dictionary or a Bahasa Indonesia dictionary.

Rodondo4:

Now that you mention it, I remember the Northerners do use the word comel (pronounced 'chome') when the word cantik is too strong. In fact, that particular word can be used to describe a variety of things, even character of a person (as in 'Chome sungguh perangai kamu'). I've even heard the Kelantanese use the word comel when they are agreeable to a suggestion.

Kind regard..

[Sultan Ismail]

A Mat Salleh in the Court of the Prince of Dzun

To support all parties views on Cantik and Comel I have reverted to my Lonely Planet Malay Phrasebook, authored by a longtime resident of Kajang and Serdang, i.e. a Malaysian Malay Phrasebook.

So

Cantik pronounced Chahn-ti(k) means beautiful*pretty

Comel pronounced cho-mehl means cute (baby)

And most important, for those of you not familiar with Malaysia, Kajang is the home of the best Satay, you must visit the stall behind the local stadium.


Sultan Ismail

[rodondo4]

Prince of Dzun,

The Malay language has gone through major 'renovation'/ revamp in the past 15 years. Your spelling of the word Comel (chomel) and Cantik (chantik) are just some of the spelling of words that has not survived the changes in the modern Malay language known as the Baku pronouncation.

The word Ratna .... I have only used this word once in my life and that was during a Form Four Malay 'Prosa klasik' (Classic Malay Lanuage) exam. The word actually means JEWEL, for example Ratna Hatiku - jewel of my heart.

The modern development of Malay is still going on with more western words being imported into the dictionary, at the expence on more traditional words.

As CI45 rightly highlighted the word can take on a new meaning in different areas of the country. Yes...the Kelantanese are the most creative when it comes to diversifying the usage of words according to the context.

My BM (bahasa malaysia) teacher would have never guessed it is me..........

[Prince of Dzun]

C154:
I've solved the problem of the different spelling and the error is here at my end. My Malay dictionary was first published by Ministry of Education, Kuala Lumpur in 1958 which means it is over 45 years old. A Malay speaking friend has informed me that many Malay words are now written in a modern script and spelt with the H removed.
Thus my limited knowledge of Malay is way out of date and I'm surprised that I did not know about how it has changed. All those nice words that thought I knew such as : merdu(sweet, soft voice); gemalai (graceful); harum (perfumed); gadis (maiden); segak (pretty); jamal (beautiful, elegant); chantek (pretty); molek (pretty); ratna (lovely maiden princess); elok (pretty); indah (very pretty); juita (charming); mejelis (beautiful); chinta (sweetheart) and of course chomel (cute) must now be re-learned. I'm sure you will notice that the fifteen Malay words I have just written all refer to beautiful young women so I have a pleasant task ahead of me.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

Sultan Ismail:
Your Mat Salleh is a nice choice of words and I compliment you on it. Am I correct in thinking that Salleh is more Arabic than Malay? Talking of satay I am planning a visit to Singapore and Malaysia sometime in the near future and I would dearly like to once again have mulligatawny soup which is not available in the west. Do you happen to know anywhere be it curb side or five stars that serves mulligatawny soup?
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

rodondo4:
Thanks for your detailed and interesting input. It came up just as I was writing the above reply to C154 and Sultan Ismail. If there is any comment you feel you should make about what I have said please put it up as I am very much in the re-learning stage. As far as Ratna is concerned my antique dictionary defines this as Ratna jewel, lovely maiden princess. I rather like the lovely maiden princess description and I tended to disregard the jewel part of the interpretation but one can see how they are intimately connected.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun