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nosefirsteverytime
27th Jun 2001, 01:31
well, here's what I said on the military forum, before I found out this sorta stuff goes on the Jet Blast!

"Just after seeing the documentary on Channel 4, looks like a worthy topic for politically-minded people like yourselves. If it's not, then sorry for putting it here.

All I can say is this: MY GOD, is there NOTHING we can do? It's obvious these bastards won't listen to the outside world (they had the nerve to insult us by asking the outside for money for an excution arena! The bastards!). I'd almost send arms to the opposition there, if I were in any sort of position of power! I feel really pissed off about this, I was half-thinking of joining the armed forces at some point, but now I'd say, if it gets me somewhere where I can combat this type of tyranny, wherever it may be, then I'm in!

Well, that's my thoughts on it, futile, but at least I let off some steam! Any thought yourselves?"

well? I'm sorry again for putting this on the mil forum, but if anyone's got a strong opinion on this, say it!

RW-1
27th Jun 2001, 01:36
Come to Afghanistan !

See our wide open spaces! We call it:

No man's land.



------------------
Marc

tailtankhvy
27th Jun 2001, 02:01
I didn't see the program you are talking about but if you're saying that u know who knows where OBL is then I am all for having some crz missles programmed and let loose, and do a follow up with a few other goodies. He is a sick SOB and should have been stopped yesterday. Let's make the planet a safer place as it will never be safe as long as he is on it. I am not a war monger but there is only one way to deal with these freaks, knock them off.

VFE
27th Jun 2001, 02:03
An absolutely shocking documentary.

For those who did not see the proramme, it followed an undercover female reporter into deepest darkest Afghanistan to uncover the brutality of the Taliban.
The Taliban came to power four years ago. They outraged the world recently when they blew up giant ancient statues of the Buddha, but what is less well known is what they are doing to their own people or more generally their women. Sex outside of marriage, adultery and homosexuality are all punishable by public execution. What was more sickening was the fact they do this in a sports stadium provided by the international community!
Women are second rate citizens who are forced to beg to feed their children. They filmed some women secretly teaching their girls over fourteen years of age in a classroom. This is because it is illegal to teach girls over fourteen. If they are caught doing this they will almost certainly face death.

The programme went on to show even more disturbing sights including some men who were taken from their villages and brutally murdered. One was murdered by having his face skin and muscle skinned off him alive.
I could go on but I am sure you can grasp the gist.

Ethnic murder is not new to these times as we have all no doubt seen on the news. But it's also going on in Afghanistan under the blind eye of the West.

I am right with you on this one nosefirsteverytime, it is disgraceful that we sit by and let these sort of things happen. But what can we do?

I hope some more people read this thread and can come up with some realistic ideas.

VFE.

ShyTorque
27th Jun 2001, 02:05
This Taliban mentality typifies why I am now agnostic, having been brought up as a Christian.

Extreme religious fanaticism is as dangerous a thing as I can imagine, much more so than an individual criminal mind.

Far better to be agnostic or atheistic and have a basic respect and understanding for others.

Engineer
27th Jun 2001, 02:18
Nothing will ever be done to stop it Why because the country is not an oil producing state(Kuwait) it is not in the backyard of europe(Kosovo).

Just another third world country like Rwanda Congo Angola Cambodia just to name a few. History has a habit of repeating itself when lessons are never learnt.

But that's the wonderful world that we live in

[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited 26 June 2001).]

Steepclimb
27th Jun 2001, 02:35
The Taleban are barbarians pure and simple, in the end they will destroy themselves. At that point what's left of the opposition will roll them up.
The reason nobody will interfere is that anyone who does will raise the ire of the entire Islamic world. Not a pretty sight.

In any case, look what happened to the last superpower who interfered there and the 19th century superpower, the British. No one is going to put their hand into a pit of vipers. Oil has nothing to do with it.

In fact the only people who could influence them are their fellow Islamic nations, but they really don't have a good record in that regard.

I'm afraid Afghanistan and it's people must be written off for the foreseeable future.
Now we know why those Afghans hijacked that aeroplane to Stanstead.

It's a salutory lesson for all of us.

G-OODY
27th Jun 2001, 02:45
As a convert, I weep at the way the Taleban conducts itself. It's because of twisted, mindless people like that, that this religion is made to look totally barbaric. Every misconception around is due to the Taleban and the extremists. Their harshness and lack of forgiveness is in total opposition to that mentioned in their holy book. They take it upon themselves to invent new laws, and call this by the name of their religion; this totally defies the object of the holy book meant to be the most perfect word of God.

However one point: The destroying of statues and idols shows your unfaltering belief in a monotheistic faith, you don’t let them stand because they look pretty. The smashing of statues and idols has been happening for centuries by all nations, it is incorrect to point this out now.

Just goes to show, wherever Europe trampled, there is now total and utter mess.

[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 26 June 2001).]

Winston Smith
27th Jun 2001, 02:51
Obviously I didn't see the "documentary", but if I believed every piece of propaganda broadcast on TV, I'd already be locked away into some fenced-off institution. Well, to think in terms of the late Douglas Adams (we miss you http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif ), that's where we are anyway: inside the asylum.

As for the Taliban, they sure are tough guys, no doubt. But then, anyone who tells the UN to go to hell can't be all bad... :)

ShyTorque
27th Jun 2001, 03:19
Winston,

Sorry, but humour is out of place and any group involved in atrocities such as those perpetrated by the Taliban do not deserve any praise in my book.

Atrocities such as killing parents in front of their children. Raping those same children (in a country where any sexual activity outside marriage is taboo by normal religious belief but especially by the Talibans' own supposed stricter doctrine) and subsequently leaving them to fend for themselves. Death by skinning of the head and upper body? What sort of religious fervour is this?

The Taliban may well appear to be "tough guys" when faced with innocent women and children, or unarmed men unable to defend themselves.

I politely suggest that you do a little research into the true situation in Afghanistan.

Full marks for the team, especially Saira Shah, for their courage in visiting the battlezone to bring the report.

ShyT.

Canto Can
27th Jun 2001, 03:33
Well folks,

Afghanistan is a quite long and sad story. It begins like this: the US was badly shocked during the war with Vietnam…. lessons were learnt…. A certain communist movement in and around Afghanistan were yet another threat to the big but shy bully. Instead of raging war with yet another nation, that traditional American-style thinking came into effect. The Taleban emerged from nowhere, strangely with strong links with the US. Money, aid, weaponry flew over from the US across the Caspian like nobodies business. So the war started, the Taleban surprisingly came out on top – earning yet more reward, until a time came.
...anyways, I'm too tired now.

Engineer
27th Jun 2001, 03:40
ShyT
We are all entitled to the way we broach a subject. WS likes to add a little humour

The atrocities that are committed here will be repeated somewhere else again and again. It is just another reiteration of how fragile and insignificant human life is.

[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited 26 June 2001).]

Mad Pax
27th Jun 2001, 03:42
Just left the chat room at C4 - the Production Team had been criticised by one individual for portraying a one way view !!!
The 'men' of the Taliban are little more than animals seeking to justify their 'kicks' with a misguided slant on religion. The lead reporter should be commended for her courage in such a place.

Winston Smith
27th Jun 2001, 04:12
ShyTorque,

the point I was trying to make is that these atrocities always seem to surface when it is deemed expedient. To engage in war, the populace's sentiments have to be stirred. Nothing new. Looks like the NWO schemers have huge plans for the Middle East this time, and probably want you Brits to help doing the dirty work. For this they have to garner public support to a certain extent, hence the propaganda (If the media had wanted to, they could just as easily have made a similar "documentary" about farm murders in South Africa, for instance).

This is not to say that some of those people aren't violent and cruel to the extreme. The problem is, you are certainly not going to change it with "smart bombs". What do you think made them reject Western values with the utmost hatred in the first place? You know, it's this Hey-lets-bomb-them-they-cant-strike-back attitude which worries me in this thread. This is exactly the reaction intended by the media.

How can you convincingly demand the extradition of Osama-bin-Ladin and those of his ilk as long as our benevolent global policeman arrogantly causes terror and bloodshed wherever it pleases him?

And as for "tough guys", I would love to see today's affirmative-action US Army engage in conventional ground warfare with them. Like the heroes of Chechenya, they've been remarkably couragious in their fight against the Soviets.

Slasher
27th Jun 2001, 11:45
The taliban are no different to any other bullsh!t islamic government. Its just that they can get away with it.

BTW some famous modern-day islamics:

taliban (bans civilisation and anything remotely resembling common humanity)

abu sayaf (beheads inocent hostages and knows how to make big money)

hamas (blows up inocent civilians. Fortunatley a martyr will usualy suicide doing it. One less lunatic to worry about)

hezbollah (same, except yank soldiers too)

Iraq (Ha. Nothin more need be said)

Indonesia (lets kill a few christians for sport)

That is bloodey islam in action. Another superstition maintained to control the uneducated unwashed masses. Why should Afganistan be any different?

G-OODY
27th Jun 2001, 12:20
For crying out loud Slasher that IS NOT Islam. Everything these guys do goes against every Islamic principle. They call it Islam because they need some sort of justification, else what they do is crime!!! (if you want a break down, proof or justification, then ask) If only they knew and you knew we wouldn't have such a mess.

(corrected for spelling)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Taleban (bans civilisation and anything remotely resembling common humanity).</font>

One important thing to remember is that there are 2 extremes, the lax and the harsh, neither is ideal and very few nations follow a middle course.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Abu Sayaf (beheads innocent hostages and knows how to make big money)</font>

Can’t argue with that, the mans a pure criminal.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Hamas (blows up innocent civilians. Fortunately a martyr will usually suicide doing it. One less lunatic to worry about.</font>

Half of the these are acts of revenge, although still incorrect. Has a right to fight against oppressors. Kills innocent civilians, because sees this as the only way to get recognition, otherwise nobody discusses the issue of illegal occupation etc.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Hezbollah (same, except yank soldiers too)</font> – same.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Iraq (Ha. Nothin more need be said)</font> – say something!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Indonesia (lets kill a few Christians for sport)</font>

You have no idea of what goes on over there. There is bloodshed on both sides.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">That is bloody Islam in action. Another superstition maintained to control the uneducated unwashed masses. Why should Afghanistan be any different? </font>

NO that is not bloody Islam in action. That is a mixture of rights, personal gain and greed in action.

-----

Basil, if I had said I was a Muslim, pure and simple, you would not have made that comment. I stand by my comment - it is incorrect to single out the Afghans for what they did, and is damn right hypocritical considering what the Western world has done in the past.

[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 27 June 2001).]

Velvet
27th Jun 2001, 14:05
Absolutely correct G-OODY, however, the destruction of the statues was symptomatic of the Taliban's need for its people to be unaware that anything exists outside their totalitarian rule - but you can't lay the blame for this one at the door of Europeans.

This is purely and simply a group of extremist Muslim fundamentalists destroying their own people - and for what, does anyone know what their aims are. They don't have to slavishly follow western cultures, but they are plunging their country into barbarism and poverty which is imposed by the Taliban's selfish disregard for human life (especially women).

Strict observance of the Quran and Islam respects and protects women. One reason why polygyny came into effect was because at the time the Quran was written there was a tremendous shortage of men, due to war etc. So to ensure women were not left at the mercy of the elements and men - a man was allowed four wives, as long as he treated them equally and fairly. That the Taliban officials killed a mother and raped her daughters shows they are not Muslim, but using Islam as a shield and cover to enable them to do whatever they want.

Many of the Quranic teachings have a similar practical and compassionate base - unfortunately they have been used and abused by men to support a power base.

Anyone who saw that film last night must have recognised not only the bravery of the young woman reporter, but also of the ordinary Afghans and their courage in befriending and shielding her. This was at the risk of death by most unpleasant means.

Is what is happening in Afghanistan worse than in Iran or Iraq - since no one has produced a similar report from these two countries with similar oppressive regimes. Or other countries who have appalling human rights records over the past decades.

Will anything be done - probably not, as someone rightly pointed out Afghanistan has little that Western Powers want or need. And from experience the other Muslim countries will be so afraid of acting in case their own fundamentalists cause problems.

edited because I obviously can't spell Afghanistan


[This message has been edited by Velvet (edited 27 June 2001).]

Slasher
27th Jun 2001, 14:24
G-OODY, actions speak louder than words bub. No amount of verbality can mitigate what islam actualy does in this period of time. Same goes for christianity.
Name me ONE islamic state in 2001 that either isnt a backward sh!thole or an horribley opressive regime.
And FYI I suggest you travel to Ujung Pandang and Kalimantan and see the christian-killing sport first hand.

G-OODY
27th Jun 2001, 15:02
Well Slasher, it's obvious to you that most Islamic states are backwards, but like I said before they are built on principles unacceptable to Islam, So are they truly Islamic?

As for Muslim dominated countries, look at: Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, Malaysia, Brunei, the UAE. Jordan combines the best of the West and Islam, the late king was a direct descendant of Mohammed the prophet, he observed his religion in the best way and maintained strong links with the whole world - a shining example.

So Slasher, the truth is: we are not all the same, and we don't appreciate people using the phrase "Islamic terrorists". We don't hear of terrorists, who happen to be Christian being called "Christian terrorists" or "Hindu terrorists", as this gives way to misconception, of which there are millions of sites devoted to, btw.

Velvet - thankyou, it really is a shame to see all that Islam has done for women to go down the drain.

[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 27 June 2001).]

VFE
27th Jun 2001, 15:27
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">You know, it's this Hey-lets-bomb-them-they-cant-strike-back attitude which worries me in this thread</font>

I have not seen a trend like that in this thread so far but I understand your concerns.

I think it would be incredibly foolish to 'send the troops in' to Afghanistan, the repercussions of that sort of action would be dreadful. Terrorist attacks on western businesses, monuments, authorities etc etc.

We need to try and find a peaceful alternative otherwise it could get very messy. There lies the problem. What peaceful option is there in these sort of cases. None?

I dislike the way some contributers have pointed towards the old 'media brainwash' thing . I have to admit I thought the same thing within the first few moments of watching the documentary but soon realised that media brainwashing did not need to 'spruce' up the evidence. The obvious truth in the witness statements shone through as did the footage of the public executions.

Forget 'smart bombs' and guerrilla warfare, that would just make it another Vietnam. Surely Afghanistan is answerable somewhere within the international community? I don't know. That is what I am asking you guys.

VFE.



[This message has been edited by VFE (edited 01 July 2001).]

Capt Byrd de Styrke
27th Jun 2001, 17:06
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Hell on Earth, no other words can describe
the quality of Life that Afghans currently endure. People are on this planet for such short a time !

It also proves that religion damages the ability of the human mind to peform basic reasoning and govern with basic human considerations in mind.


What is also worrying is the support present in Pakistan... let's hope there's no spill over effect.

If I were Bush or Blair I would be air- dropping arms on a nightly basis to rebel groups. perhaps they already are..........

Slasher
27th Jun 2001, 17:18
You can say all you like G-OODY, but the actions of islamics killing inocents under the cry "allah akbar" cant be hidden nor explained away, can it pal. Same with hindus, and christians (as was in Ireland), who murder for there own purposes. Ive heard the same useless worn-out diatribe from christians who say "yeh but those Irish are not following the true path Jesus set out to give us." Seems to me these religions and other ancient superstitions look good on paper but dont work in reality do they!

I said it before and Ill say it again: actions speak louder than words! You can go blue in the face telling me the oposite pal but it doesnt change what your islamic brotherhood is doing elsewhere in the world.

Fact: Abu Sayaff ISLAMIC terrorists are part of a struggle to set up an islamic state in the southern Philipinnes. Do you deny that or not?

Fact: 35,000 Indon islamics were recruited for a jihad (islamic-endorsed mass murder called affectionately as a "holy war") against East Timorese and Australian troops after seccesion. True or not? (thisll test your honesty!)
* The jihad faltered when everyone suddenley realised they needed to find and eat food first before they could be brave allah soldiers.

Fact: islamics worldwide believe Saddam Hussein to be a muslim just like them. True or not?

Fact: Osama bin Laden can only find sanctuary in islamic states. True or not?

Fact: islamic lunatics will resort to cold blooded murder to get there message across (as you inferred). True or not?

Fact: islamic states are free to interpret the koran as they see fit for the local conditions. This can be UAE style through to Taliban style. True or not?

Fact: islam needs its own police force (shariah?) to physicaly punish apostasy, non-observance of ramadan, adultery, not going to the mosque, criticising the koran or Mo the desert rat, going to the pub to have a coldie, or even just having the odd inocent shag before marriage. islam would just die out without this Big Brother policy. True or not bub?

Fact: shariah law states the death penalty for homosexuality, adultery, and apostacy. True or not?

Fact: The whole basis of islam is only on what Mo of the desert planned for restoring Arabian society when it was on the verge of colapse from the inside. True or not?

Fact: If your unluckey enough to be born an islamic, you have no choice but to follow it for fear of shariah punishment. You dont have a choice even in later life. True or not?

Fact: the koran is to be learnt parrot fashion and is not to be questioned or commented nor criticised in any way for fear of punishment. Only imams and mullahs are allowed to interpret certain sections of the koran for fatwa rulings, but not the common unwashed peasants. True or not?

Fact: No islamic state can criticise nor question the brutality of another islamic state in terms of shariah law (case of the kettle calling the pot black huh?). True or not?

If all this crap was just localised in one small area only, I wouldnt realy bitch about it. But murder in the name of islam is everywhere bub, everywhere. And I still say the Taliban are no different to any other islamic state. Its just that in Afganistan they can get away with it. That country has been screwed over the past few thousand years and everyones used to it. It has no oil or diamonds or anything useful so no-one gives a sh!t. And the bearded bastards get to have free rein.

And BTW FYI Malaysia and Brunei are SECULAR states upholding islam. They are not "islamic states". Not yet anyway.

Religion is like politics. In fact they are one in the same. The act of challenging any propaganda is frowned upon. Authority is to be obeyed at all costs and free enquiry is totaly discouraged. Both cannot and will not answer hard questions directed at them. Both have caused untold misery and bloodshed on the world for many years, and both have caused people to become enemys who would otherwise be friends. I dont despise you personaly Mr G-OODY, only your backward superstitious belief. Im surprised though a seemingly sensible person like yourself (from what Ive seen) would willingly join a mob like that.

Winston Smith
27th Jun 2001, 18:02
VFE,

what the hell is "gorilla warfare"? ;)

-

We must not forget what twenty years of almost continual warfare can turn men into. A lot of these Taliban grew up at a time when they had to witness their friends being torn apart by grenades disguised as toys and similar gruesome crimes. It has very little to do with Islam. If you browse through the Quran, you'll find it to be far less blood-thirsty than the Old Testament.

And we do not even have to go back to the days of the "Holy Inquisition" for examples of Christians being equally barbaric. We just have to look at Lebanon to see what nice people Christians can be. This became especially clear when the Israelis pulled out of their "security zone" and reporters got to see the inside of that infamous detention and torture centre (the name eludes me at this moment) run by the "Christian" militia. They also were heavily involved in the massacres that Sharon is now publicly made responsible for.

The only positive effect of a "hi-tech war" against Afghanistan that I could think of might be that they eventually stop slaughtering each other to face the outside threat. The USA and their allies have a huge public relations problem in that part of the world which they won't be able to overcome in the foreseeable future. And even if they succeeded in smashing the Taliban and installed another group more to their liking into power, "peace" would probably not last long.

As for some of the other countries mentioned in this thread:

Iran isn't simply that backward, middle-age-like country that it is often portrayed to be. And as long as secular governments in islamic countries continue to be oppressive themselves, their people won't actually see anything which might be worse about a shariah-inspired regime, as is the case in Algeria (and Egypt, too, as soon as the Americans stop backing Mubarak with gigantic amounts of money).

Iraq is a totally different case, religion is not the main issue here.

The Hashemite Royal Family in Jordan has long since been regarded as total sell-outs for those not directly benefiting from their regime which some claim is more or less directed by the CIA.

And of course, groups like Hamas are not much more inspired by religion in their operations than either side in the Northern Ireland conflict is. It's just that the respective opponent happens to have a different set of superstitions which makes vilification still easier.

Stiff Lil' Fingers
27th Jun 2001, 18:27
Missed the documentary but out of interest I met Saira Shah at a friends party a week or so ago - she was locked out of her flat next door so we invited her in for a beer. Very interesting and courageous person. She was telling me all about the making of the documentary. Very nasty conditions.

From my alcohol-dimmed memory,I believe another similar documentary is in the pipeline.

And anyway, before one of you wags asks, no nothing happened! ;)

Stiff

G-OODY
27th Jun 2001, 20:57
I promised myself I wouldn’t do this, but since you’re understanding is so twisted and views plain biased, we need to clarify a few things. I’m going to state now that the authenticity of the Quran and Mohammed the prophet is not the discussion here.

Islam means Submission; the belief in the oneness of God, and your readiness to bow down to his will, since he created you. If you are a Muslim, you have done all the above.

Jihad means: anything that comes in the way of God and that prevents you from following his religion of submission, you should destroy it from the roots. It is an ongoing struggle against the enemies of God, dare I say; polytheists and those that occupy your land and prevent you from being Muslims. Noah did it, Lot did it, Abraham did it, Moses did it. Mass Murder??? – NO that’s Milosevic, Hitler, Ariel Sharon, Elle Ubaiker, and Madeline Albright!


and now for your facts:

1) True – what is your point though?

2) I’m not aware of this, again after all I’ve said concerning personal gain etc, what is your point?

3) Is Elton John a Christian like the Arch Bishop of Canterbury? They both wear the cross. Saddam Hussain may believe in the oneness of God, but his actions are not liked by ALL Muslims I can tell you that.

4) Tell me, I’m not understanding something here.

5) Lunatics will do so, yes. Some Muslims will try to warn them without success, some will be scared to approach them, others couldn’t care less. Saudi Arabia allows American Air Force bases within its own country for a good reason.

6) Yes, happens all over the world, all religions.

7) <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Islam needs its own police force (Shariah?) to physically punish apostasy, non-observance of Ramadan, adultery, not going to the mosque, criticising the Koran or Mo the desert rat, going to the pub to have a coldie, or even just having the odd innocent shag before marriage. Islam would just die out without this Big Brother policy. True or not bub?</font>

Shariah is used to set limits of what is permissible and not permissible within the eyes of God and his laws (as an agnostic this will no doubt be an alien concept). Some of these laws are mention in the 10 commandments. In essence, it is determined by interpretation, of which there are many. To say ‘Islam’ authorises physical punishment for the above is totally incorrect my man. The Quran supposedly contains everything man needs to know, it is supposed to be the perfect word of God after all, anything outside of this, will, obviously defeat the whole object of the book – true of false? Now tell me, what section did you read?

You say you studied a few religions before making the decision to become an agnostic, your understanding indicates otherwise. You are still entitled to be an atheist, but please show you’ve done the necessary work.

Regarding the so-called “Islamic” punishment, e.g. the death by stoning as a punishment for adultery.

This is not an ‘Islamic’ punishment. According to the Quran, the punishment for adultery is whipping or isolation from the community. However, God says that if the couple repent and reform, they should be pardoned. (Quran 4:16,25; 24:1-4). Many laws in the so-called Islamic countries are man-made but they claim it to be Islamic. Quran is the only law that a Muslim (Submitter) should accept for religious matters.

For criticising the Quran or Mohammed THE PROPHET? (not desert rat – you’ve been reading those biased sites haven’t you? Do your own research, how pathetic!)

By doing so, what does this say about your belief?

Going to the pub to have a coldie?

You’re cultural system is vastly different – how shall I explain to you that alcohol is not permissible, NOT ALLOWED – for good reasons, reasons I won’t go into here. No punishment for this? you must be mad! the degeneration of society will follow the lack of beleif in God. It's called the Satanic drink in the East for a reason you know (do not take offense I'm using this to convey the message that the Western society is no better than the Eastern.

The innocent shag before marriage?

it’s called fornication, outside the limits of wedlock, a biblical law, Gods law, therefore the Quranic law. Punishment as same as adultery.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Islam would die out if it were not for this Big Brother policy.</font>

Gods religion would die out, therefore there is a need for some sort of policy, else we become all those things, that are controversial topics (I dare not name them).

Fact 7: Again not in the Quran, then it’s not Islam, that is the whole purpose of it, after all.

Fact 8: “The whole basis of Islam is only on what Mo of the desert planned for restoring Arabian society when it was on the verge of collapse from the inside. True or not?”

Not true..do you want some links? don't know which website you’ve been to. It is a fundamental belief of all Muslims, Christians and Jews, that prophets were sent to those nations who were shameful and negligent in their duty to their lord. Ever heard of Arab Pagans???

Fact 9: If their version of Shariah is wrong, then these people are suffering. What can they do? Who is prepared to help them?

Fact 10: Absolute bullsh!t

Fact 11: Again bullsh!t.

I didn’t say Malaysia and Brunei were Islam states, I said they were muslim dominated countries.

As for your last comment:

I’m not going to bother for too long, I’ve exhausted myself trying to explain to a total dimwit what the religion is really about and he comes out with a statement like that!!! – There is no mob to join, you CAN be a Muslim (check earlier definition) without calling God "Allah" (a proper noun for "The Creator"), without praying in Arabic, without reading the Quran in Arabic (the precise meaning lacking obviously), without cohering to the Arab culture, without wearing the veil, without wearing the mosque-hat, without wearing "Islamic" dress. You can be black, white, rich, poor, as long as you believe in one God, and believe he has no partners, and believe he created and is the ruler of the universe, and believe in the last day, and the resurrection, you are righteous, you see the need for sacrifice and comply (fasting), you offer thanks, you seek divine guidance. All those incidentally happen to be the definition of a good Muslim, as prescribed within the Quran.

puff!

..........The willingly bit is very difficult to grasp and / or handle, isn't it? Still, we wouldn't be having this discussion if I was 'brought' into it or 'forced' into it. Luckily I wasn't, or I would not have enjoyed this discussion as much, and I really did enjoy it you know ;).


[This message has been edited by G-OODY (edited 27 June 2001).]

flapsforty
27th Jun 2001, 23:30
Goody, I know you said you don’t want to engage in further discussion, but perhaps you would further my (and other ppruners' education on Islam a bit?

I am no expert on Islam. I know about the five pillars, and once when I had to spend 17 days in Kuwait during the month of July with an excruciatingly boring crew, and all books in my luggage read since it was supposed to be the last stop before going home, I kept myself sane by reading the local ”Gideon”, the Koran provided by the hotel on my bedside table. I got about half way thru, then the company finally sent a fresh 747.
Anyway, during that bit of reading I was struck by the fairness and evenhandedness evidenced in that book. Very different from what I’d ever heard about Islam, or had read in western books and the western media. A very pleasant surprise.
So when you say that the Taliban and others harsh muslim regimes are not true to the Koran, I understand what you mean.

Question: Why are regimes like the one in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Afghanistan so very far away from the Koran? Even while claiming they are the only true observers of the faith, are they according to you just using the writings in the Koran to suit their own megalomaniac purposes?

I have always thought that the Sharia was unto the Koran somewhat like the Talmudic laws unto the Torah. Witht the difference being that no state in the world has legislated strict adherence to the Talmud as far as I know, while Sharia law is being practiced in the 3 states I mentioned before, and some others as well.

Question: What exactly IS Sharia, and why does is seem to diverge so radically from the Koran? And how is that justified by the states mentioned?

Right, another point which is discussion, so you don’t need to answer it! :)
You state that “The smashing of statues and idols has been happening for centuries by all nations, it is incorrect to point this out now.” I know of at least one instance where you are correct. In 1566 the mobs in Holland and Flanders stormed Catholic churches & monasteries and smashed all the “pagan symbols of idolatry”.
But so what? What does that prove? If something has happened before and or on a large scale, that is no justification for it surely? Slavery? Genocide? Religious persecution?

Goody if you wanna point out that I’m too lazy to do my own research you would be dead right. But I have learnt a lot of stuff right here on JB, and apart from all the perving, fun and sillyness this seems to be as good a place as any to pick up more brain cargo.
So if you would oblige me by answering, I would appreciate it.
If not, nurries…. :)



------------------
Singularly Simple Person........

G-OODY
28th Jun 2001, 01:29
flapsforty check your mail.

No more please :)

Slasher
28th Jun 2001, 06:27
Ok G-OODY thanks for taking the time to reply. No rudeness towards you intended but I respect no religion whatsoever.
Yeh my research was pretty extensive. I started at age 15. I was raised a jehovahs bloodey witness which ruined my childhood and isolated me from mainstream society. At 15 I started research on the worlds main religions to find any elements of fact or truth. I researched the koran, bible, and various authorised texts on Buddhism, Taoism, and Hindu. Later I was able to travel around the globe seeking proof of christianity such as Lourdes water, Phillipine faith healers, (both proved false), and the vatican in Rome. Next was India, Katmandu, China, and Japan for the others. Islam was limited as I wasnt allowed to Mecca, so I was left with Jordan, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia (Jeddah, Ryadh, Dahran).
I still found religion had no solid basis for fact. I turned to Science for an explaination when I turned about 25. At 30 I took on quantum physics which I must admit wasnt easy at all. I grappled just grasping the bloodey math for 5 years until slowly the penny dropped. 8 years later I arrived at the conclusion there is no god or gods. So yeh I did my homework alright. But Im an atheist not by convenience but by logical research and deduction.

Thanks again for replying. I wont annoy you anymore. ;)
Slash.

PS And dont get cranky when confronted. A calm reply commands more respect for the writer.

[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 28 June 2001).]

Winston Smith
28th Jun 2001, 14:33
Slasher,

no offense and all, but you are not bullsh'tting us, are you?

Slasher
28th Jun 2001, 14:44
Winst, bullsh!ttin you in what area?

Winston Smith
28th Jun 2001, 19:03
Sorry Slash,

I have no intention of questioning what you said - it just strikes me as a bit odd that you actually set out to find "proof" for something which is by definition unprovable - either you believe or you don't. Quantum physics surely is an interesting science, but I never heard of anyone dedicating several years of his life to it for religious reasons.

As for myself, I didn't really think about religion at all until I was twelve, when I had to attend those preparatory "lessons" which precede the protestant "confirmation". Right from the start I was disgusted by the sheer boredom and stupidity I encountered there, but what really pushed me over the brink was when the pastor suddenly woke me up with some totally irrelevant question concerning a story about Jesus meeting us at the bus stop. I said that I didn't know, hadn't really listened, and couldn't care less. I wouldn't have minded if she had reprimanded me for it, but instead she simply kept staring at me like a cow for at least 30 seconds, still waiting for an answer. - After making it unmistakably clear to my mother that I was certainly not going to join that club, I never went there again.

I quit "Religion" as a subject at school as soon as I turned fourteen, at which age one becomes "religionsmündig", i.e "of age in religious matters", in Germany. Those 75% who didn't "conscientiously object" usually weren't much more concerned about Christianity either, but considered it a great opportunity to get a good grade on their reports without having to do anything at all except for singing hymns and smiling as if they cared (one of our teachers, who didn't actually teach anything besides Religion, used to bribe us with sweets - that's why his monthly services were always well attended. The last we heard of him was that he sexually molested a girl he'd taken home in his mini-bus. To avoid trouble he was simply transferred to another school).

For another four years, I didn't consider Christianity to be much more than a ridiculous superstition and a general nuisance, at that. Only when I discovered Nietzsche (I presume you have read him as well) I began to fully understand Christianity as a perversion of everything that is noble and decent about mankind.

That view has been confirmed by my subsequent observations.

Evo7
28th Jun 2001, 19:46
Slasher

The one truth about Quantum Mechanics is that if you think you understand it, you don't understand it at all ;)

Nobody, alive or dead, has ever understood Quantum Mechanics. Not Heisenberg, Dirac, Einstein, Feynmann or anyone else....

Canto Can
28th Jun 2001, 21:38
If anything, the rise of the Taleban proves that any religion no matter how just or fair can be used to support an unjust system, if it is implemented by evil people. 50% of the doctors and teachers in Afghanistan were female back in the 80s. Now Women are suffering from disease and are dying by the 100s everyday, and since male doctors are not prescribed to treat them and women are not allowed to be educated or have a profession (again nonsense, not in accordance with Islamic Law) the demise of the Taleban is inevitable.

edited for a laugh :)

[This message has been edited by Canto Can (edited 28 June 2001).]

Slasher
28th Jun 2001, 22:09
Yeh I got your drift now Winst. No I didnt chase science for religious research. I chose science as a better way to understand the world as religious superstition is based on unquestioned authority and very suss evidence. Science (unlike religion) must do everything possible to find flaws in accepted theorys and try to prove them false. Only if it does that and fails, can there be confidence in the theory or hypothesis. If "God" realy exists and realy did make the Universe than he must be a complete bloodey lunatic because hes done it in the most stupidest way possible.

Evo7 your not wrong mate! A unit of mass having a negative number? Sub-particles having there own wormholes? And thats just the easy bits! Sh!t even old man Newton who invented calculus wouldve been stumped on that one! But it does explain certain reasons why the universe does what it does once youve mastered (or I should say....grasped!) the horrendousley ball-busting mathematical proofs. And yeh I certainley blew a few precious cerebe cells in the process. Im still recovering!

PS And I found no proof that X = God. X = 42!

mutt
28th Jun 2001, 22:49
&lt;b&gt;G-OODY&lt;\b&gt;
I really don’t know what country that you live in, but it certainly isn’t one that is ruled under the Shariah Law.

You say that you have converted to Islam, I’m sure that as it is such an understanding and tolerant religion, it will allow you to change your mind if you so desire?

&lt;I&gt;Shariah is used to set limits of what is permissible and not permissible within the eyes of God and his laws (as an agnostic this will no doubt be an alien concept). Some of these laws are mention in the 10 commandments. In essence, it is determined by interpretation, of which there are many. To say ‘Islam’ authorises physical punishment for the above is totally incorrect my man. &lt;\I&gt;

Ah right, please tell that to the 20 Saudi youths who was publicly whipped last week for trying to chat to females in shopping malls. Or tell it to the school girls who were accosted by the protectors of the faith, who then proceeded to check the telephone numbers in their mobile phones to find any male names. Or tell it to the women who was accosted by another group of these intrepid protectors because she wasn’t totally covered while out walking. Regardless of what is written, this is the everyday Islam that I live with!

&lt;I&gt;You’re cultural system is vastly different – how shall I explain to you that alcohol is not permissible, NOT ALLOWED – for good reasons, reasons I won’t go into here. No punishment for this? you must be mad! &lt;\I&gt;

Personally I would love to know the reasons. This ban vastly increases the cost of a good bottle of Johnny Walker.

&lt;I&gt;Fact: the Koran is to be learnt parrot fashion and is not to be questioned or commented nor criticised in any way for fear of punishment. True or not?&lt;\I&gt;

Totally true, you should try having a real conversation on the subject some day. You will find that the words “tolerance” and “understanding” do not come into the modern day interpretation. Try asking the reasons for not having any churches in Saudi Arabia?

And before you ask, yes I have read the Koran, I’ve also spent many an hour listening to the Friday prayer sermon in English.

Finally, getting back to the original question, there is NOTHING that the west can do in Afghanistan, because the Taliban have a total belief in that they are “right” in their actions. Therefore its not for the west to try to change them, its up to the Organization of Islamic Countries.

Mutt.

[edited for spelling]

[This message has been edited by mutt (edited 28 June 2001).]

Send Clowns
28th Jun 2001, 22:52
I don't expect G-OODY to reply, but I agree he has made a good case for the caring of true Islam. However he missed one vital point : the fact that all the punishment was enforced on the individual, and he or she is not allowed to choose not to be muslim.

I have known many muslims, from this country and Arab states. All have been very pleasant, but somewhat distant, particularily the Arabs . I always get the feeling I am not approved of, but that may be my prejudice, knowing I am an infidel.

Must, however, agree with Slash for much of what he has said here, and his quest for meaning. Mine was much more gentle, having not had the zealous upbringing, but the same conclusion (except I never got far with quantum mechanics, and used geology as my reference).

flapsforty
29th Jun 2001, 00:12
Goody
just read your comprehensive explanation in my mail-box. Thanks for the time you have taken, and for providing those links.
Much appreciated!


------------------
Singularly Simple Person........

Admiral James T. Kirk
29th Jun 2001, 05:36
Slasher

You can be my First Oficer any time!

Most of what Slasher says is spot on. I hate to be crude, but it has to be said early on that all religion is utter bullsh!t made up by the educated few to get a desired reaction out of the uneducated many, over whom they cannot hope to have total physical control. I cannot and will not accept any other argument, as through defending the validity of religion, one can only demonstrate one's lack of independent thought, and one's reliance on a superstitious 'crutch' just to get through life.

I happen to agree with some of the moral lessons that are taught, particularly through Christianity, but the blindly faithful, superstitious side to religion is the side that causes the moral lessons to be forgotten, and leads to 'witches' being burnt & the like.

I personally find the concept of institutional superstition deeply disturbing, and not least of my worries is the trend that the 'Good Ole' US of A' seems to be following, with irrational, knee-jerk legislation popping up left, right and centre. To outlaw the teaching of science (e.g. evolution - i.e. 'the truth') in favour of fairy-tales (e.g. creationism - i.e. 'a shoddy fabrication') is hardly evidence of a forward-moving civilised society, now is it? If the above example causes offence to you, then....... grow up!

I believe in common sense and nothing else. if there were a God, then I am sure he would approve of my genuine sense of morality, rather than the blind following of a rule book written, quite definitely, by man, in the pursuit of a selfish heavenly reward.

In the words of Rufus: Be good to eachother

Goodnight.

Velvet
29th Jun 2001, 17:41
Like most others who have turned from religion, I studied and researched extensively both at University and subsequently various religions and faiths - mainly because the Bible didn't make sense. It doesn't matter if you are a Christian or not, the Old Testament shows a jealous, tyranical, vindictive God. One who showed paranoid and murderous tendencies towards those who did not worship 'Him' totally and without question (and even to those who did - explained as a test of their belief). I could not accept this from any omniscient or omnipotent entity - so decided to see how the Bible came to be accepted without question by so many intelligent people.

In the course of my studies I sidetracked to Islam, Hindu, Buddist and Pagan etc - finding much that is identical in the roots of these, I also read up on agnostic and atheist beliefs, and the myths and legends of Greece, Rome, and elsewhere. Including discovering many of the Christian festivals were in fact pagan in origin. In the process I found that the Bible was a construct from the 4th Century and that much of it was based on myth and even more left out because it didn't fit the political aims of a ruling elite.

It was a revelation that so many people had trodden the same path, and many eminent and highly regarded people had come to the same conclusions.

I asked the question why would the Bible portray God in such an unfavourable light and came to no firm conclusions. However, I couldn't accept any God who was responsible for the appalling evil he visited upon mankind - according to biblical stories. He seemed more devilish than the Satan.

I discovered that the Devil or Demon was as much manmade as ‘God’, the word "demon" comes from the Greek word "daimon" or "daemon," (a spelling ocb took issue with once) which originally referred to beings of divine, godly nature - gods, not evil spirits. Similarly ‘Lucifer’ which actually means light-bearer (and in Hebrew – bright), he was vilified as Satan by St Jerome who identified him with Isaiah’s ‘Lucifer, son of the morning’. Even the word Devil comes from the Sanskrit / Hindi word "deva," referring to good angels within the Hindu pantheon. Therefore, both "devil" and "deva" are the root for ‘divine’, the same root incidentally which became the Latin ‘divus’. No, I’m not a devil worshipper – I don’t worship any entity as such. However, since no army has ever marched off to war in the name of the Devil, and millions down the centuries have been murdered as a result of various ‘God’ inspired conflicts, maybe it’s time for this aspect to be re-evaluated. After all it's not the devil worshippers who are the most dangerous people, but those who fanatically believe they are in the right and are completely justified in whatever they do to achieve ‘God’s Plan for mankind.

Slasher, I’m constantly impressed by the breadth and depth of your knowledge and understanding, my studies haven’t made me an atheist, but I have only subjective proof that there is a spiritual dimension. One of my favourite songs is by John Lennon – Imagine.

The following quote from Mark Twain also seems apt for certain people, who won’t really examine their belief structure, for fear of it not having a sound base.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I have seen several entirely sincere people who thought they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. That was the end of the search. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth he sought no further; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors” </font>

It isn’t that many of us don’t have faith, or a belief in God – it’s that we cannot understand the need to have that belief propped up by a crutch called religion. Robert Ingersoll stated ‘The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.'

From observation, it is evident that any fanatical believer is more inclined to use methods up to an including violence to achieve their ends. They are intolerant of others who do not subscribe to their belief structure and consider them already damned, so justifying the mistreatment or abuse (up to and including murder) – because they have offended against ‘God’ (according to the fanatics’ narrow parameters) and deserve everything that’s coming to them.

I think the most telling point is that fanatics seem to lack a sense of the ridiculous, and thus tie themselves up in knots trying to explain the inconsistencies in their world that to everyone else seem perfectly obvious.

I came across this a while back and it made me laugh (religious absurdity has a tendency to do that)
Think of it--they're living out there in that gritty wilderness, and all of a sudden
they're supposed to come up with two elephants. Or is it more?
"Shem," Japheth calls. "Is the elephant a clean or an unclean animal?
If it's clean, that means seven of them and the ark is in trouble. And how about rhinos? And hippos? What do we do about the dinosaurs? How do we get a brontosaurus
up the gangplank?" Japheth loves raising problems that Noah hasn't thought of at all. "Pandas—kids love pandas, we can't let them die out, but how do we get two of them
here in a hurry, all the way from China?
And oh, by the way, Dad, how are we going to keep the lions away from the lambs?"
by Philip Appleman

I was informed quite seriously once that God would have found a way to keep them all fed, watered, clean and separated and manage to squeeze them all into a relatively small ark!

Actually, there were 3 arks, one with all the dinosaurs and other extinct forms which sank due to overloading, one with marsupials which was blown off course and landed in Australia – and, of course, the one with all the rest. ;)



------------------
How do you explain to a caterpillar that it can become a butterfly, and will, regardless of its current belief system.

XENA
29th Jun 2001, 18:43
It's always seemed to me that religion can bring out the best and worst in human nature. Usually the worst.

Because that is what we all are, just humans; fallible, and at worst prone to being greedy for power and able to justify our actions no matter how monstrous. Especially if it is ingrained in the culture of the country. If religious superstition can be used as a justification and method of control then it will be, some bastard will always take advantage of the vulnerable no matter what name you call your "god" or "holy book".

I believe that Jesus was one of many great orators, and he preached in a simple and gentle way to encourage people to nurture what was best about human nature, love thy neighbour, forgiveness, respect etc. Yet many "christians" have twisted these simple things to suit themselves and once again justify monstrous actions. (eg the Spanish Inquisition, the nuns at my school)

It's up to each of us to bring out the best in ourselves, it comes from within not from a book and doesn't need a label. And nobody is perfect, nobody is absolutely right or wrong, why can't we do what Jesus said and try to be NICE to one another?

What is so horrific about the situation in Afganistan is that they are doing these dreadful things not to an "enemy" but to their own kin, their mothers, their sisters and their daughters.

tony draper
29th Jun 2001, 19:01
I'm perhaps one of those fortunate 10% of people that never feels the need for religion or a deity of any kind.
I can understand why most people feel this need, this universe we inhabit is at least fifteen billion years old, it may be older but it can't be much younger than that, now that's a number you can say, or even write down, but you could go insane just trying to visulise what a mind numbing gulf of time that is.
As terrifying a stretch as that seems, its just a brief tick compared to the length of time you are going to spend in the ground, so its understandable why most people dive into religion no matter how silly it is.
We have about six thousand weeks holiday here, enjoy it, don,t squander it on mumbo jumbo,when your time is up your going into the same oblivion you inhabited before you were born, in other words your going nowhere.

[This message has been edited by tony draper (edited 29 June 2001).]

putco
29th Jun 2001, 19:08
Just tuned in....

I have been flying in Afghanistan for the last three years, humanitarian stuff or whatever it's called - I deem it business!!

That country is wanked and needs to be dug out around the edges and thrown in the sea.

Cheers to all the Speedbirds and Qantas chaps that reply to our greetings, it's good to do relays for you lot and speak to someone normal!

Contact Kabul now on 128.5, have a lovely day...

Admiral James T. Kirk
29th Jun 2001, 19:28
Velvet and XENA:

Thank you for putting those arguments more eloquently than I could have done. I still await such a reasoned response from the other side of the fence

Jim

Father Dougal
29th Jun 2001, 23:34
While I agree with many of the comments in this thread I feel that too much emphasis is being placed on the influence of organised religions. Xena hit the nail on the head in mentioning "human nature".

The fact is when any group decides it's ideals, religious or otherwise, are the only ideals which should be aspired to and then takes it upon themselves to enforce them on others these types of atrocities do occur.

The communist Chinese perpetrated one of the most brutal invasions in modern times when it walked into Tibet. Their creed was "religion is poison". They then took it upon themselves to murder huge numbers of Tibetans and subjugate the rest. That too was largely ignored by the West as Tibet was of no value to any but the Tibetans. The persecution of The Jews, disabled, gypsies, etc in World War 2 was not based on religious ideals. Beware dogma - whichever form it takes!!!!!!!!

Let's not get carried away with using organised religion as an easy excuse for the brutality and extremes of behaviour of which the human race is capable - if we do we run the risk of failing to see the real dangers in extreme views and attempts to impose them on others.

What is happening in Afghanistan is sickening. I too, wish there was something we could do - What? - I haven't a clue, I wish I did!

Winston Smith
29th Jun 2001, 23:38
Vel, Slash,

I don't want to disparage your extensive research in any way, but isn't good old common sense more than enough to thoroughly discredit any script which has its main actor show off by taking a stroll on the water at a popular ancient lakeside resort and spend a few days dead just to prove the point? And of course, he didn't even bother to come back after pulling these stunts - probably too afraid of the vented anger of those tricked into his pyramid scheme ("that's your soul saved - now go and find another sucker or two"). But then, how much accountability can you expect from a confidence trickster peddling a get-three-for-the-price-of-one religion (though I never really understood who this "Holy Ghost" spook was anyway)?

Good point about the body count of Yahweh's supporters as compared to that of Satan's groupies, though.

As for the etymology of the word "devil": While you are correct as far as the derivation of the "pro-god" words such as "divine" and "deus" is concerned, I would like to cite the "American heritage dictionary of the English language" which claims that "devil" stems from Latin "diabolus", which in turn can be traced back to the Greek verb "diaballein", to slander.

Squawk 8888
30th Jun 2001, 01:01
Velvet,

There's much more to the demonization (pun intended) of Lucifer than you let on. As you pointed out, his name roughly translates as "giver of light", and Adam Eve were punished after they were "enlightened" about the nature of good and evil. Since you've studied other religions you are no doubt well aware that most of them vilify someone for enhancing the quality of human life in some way- Prometheus (sp?) comes to mind here. The common thread to all religions is that humans are evil by nature and anything that provides comfort (sex, wealth, whatever) is also evil. The whole point of the exercise is to convince people that they are worthless, the better to make them submissive. Even the modern-day religions of socialism, environmentalism and patriotism use this trick- socialists proclaim that it's evil to try and get rich and promise salvation by taxing away all of that "filthy" wealth you've managed to earn; environmentalists claim that you are less deserving of life than whatever vermin, insects and infectious bacteria might get in your way and offer salvation by micromanaging your life; and patriots claim that you should pay homage to your homeland by offering yourself up as cannon fodder for whatever the tinpot-of-the-day desires.

------------------
Per dementia ad astra

Velvet
30th Jun 2001, 01:03
Winston, if all it took was common sense - there would be very few Christians around. I enjoyed my researches, I liked delving into why things happened and where they originated. Haven't you ever just read and learned for its own sake.

It led me into the most amazing discoveries, gave me food for thought and entertained, diverted and interested me for years - still is.

As for the root of the word, you have to go back further than Greek or Latin - diabolos, like the Gothic tieval, diuval, diufal, the Icelandic djofull, Swedish djevful, all trace back to the same root which furnished the Latin Divus, Djovis, and the Sanskrit deva.

;)

Squawk, of course - biggest con trick in the history of the world. To get people to believe that bringing knowledge to the ignorant savage was a sin of such magnitude that it warranted punishment of untold billions of generations yet unborn.

Don't get me started on genesis or we'll be here all day :)

[This message has been edited by Velvet (edited 29 June 2001).]

Celtic Emerald
30th Jun 2001, 02:58
I too went into the channel 4 chat room after the programme to chat to Saira.

I asked her was there anything we can do. She gave me a contact e-mail address but I left it at work, mean't to bring it home for you guys today but I forgot SORRY http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

It is something like [email protected] but I'll have to fully verify that on Monday.

'Rawa' if you saw remember from those of you who saw the programme etc is the womens organisation in Afganistan & Pakistan who have mounted an opposition to this chauvinist thoroughly evil regime often at risk to their own life's. There going to need all the help & support they can get so while it is good so many of you feel so heartfeltly about this please do whatever you can in concrete terms to help. We could just forget about it in a week a two, put it to the back of our minds and just get on with our life's but those poor Afganistans have to live withh this non-ending horror and despair day in day out. Would you like to be in their shoes & feel the world doesn't care about them.

Evil gains ground when good people do nothing.

Sorry for my forgetfulness!

Emerald http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Celtic Emerald
30th Jun 2001, 08:44
Aha total senility has not set in yet.

The URL for the website is www.rawa.org (http://www.rawa.org) & the e-mail address is as above [email protected]

Rawa stands for the 'Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afganistan'.

Emerald

Slasher
30th Jun 2001, 20:50
Winst, unfortunatley common-sense will also tell you the sun must go around Earth. I had to investigate the whole thing this way to satisfy myself inside wether there is a basis for religion or not.

Commonsense cant be solely relied upon. For example if someone preached 2000 years ago that things called radio waves existed and could be used to carry your voice through the air for thousands of miles, youd think the guy was barmy. You cant taste, feel, nor see electromagnetic waves so commonsense would tell you they simpley dont exist. Only after youve had Maxwells equations thrown in your face can you say the whole thing isnt quite a load of sh!t, and practical application in the form of TV and radio seals the argument.

[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 01 July 2001).]

cudgy_funt
30th Jun 2001, 23:19
I Heard once that Religion was created because Humans saw the frailty of life, and the certainty of death, and Creating a God and Afterlife was the only way we could deal with the severity.

Winston Smith
1st Jul 2001, 16:14
Squawk 8888,

Though I fully agree with most of your post, I think it's far from true that all religions proclaim man to be evil by nature. Furthermore, in my opinion real patriotism is not "offering yourself up as cannon fodder", but opposition to it. That's also the attitude of many American patriots towards their involvement in Vietnam and the World Wars.


Vel,

of course I read and learn just for its own sake. Even about Christianity, but at the time I started doing so I had already long since "quit" that religion (though I'm not even sure I've ever been a member).

In my first post I didn't consider it necessary to go beyond the point where my explanation differed from the one you gave. According to the AHD, "devil", "diable", "Teufel", and all the other Germanic and Romance derivatives go back to Greek "diábolos", slanderer, which is quite obvious. This in turn, so they claim, can be traced back to the Proto-Indo-European form "gwele-" [with the "w" shifted up and the second "e" turned upside down, like that well-known phonetic symbol - I forgot the name], to throw, to reach, with further meaning to pierce. On the other hand, "deus", "divine", "devah", etc. are said to derive from "deiw-" - our words do not necessarily stem from Sanskrit, but they have a common ancestor, the above-mentioned hypothetical Proto-Indo-European language.


Slash,

hmm... I guess I would have a hard time arguing this one - good point! The only thing I would like to point out is that a theory cannot be justified by equations, but only by observation. Equations are just a description of a natural phenomenon.


[This message has been edited by Winston Smith (edited 01 July 2001).]