Conflicting feedback- Operational Procedures questions

[Rowley Birkin, QC]

On my second attempt at Ops Proc., and got lorryloads of feedback this time. However there are some things where school 1 says this, school 2 says the other. Can someone help?

1. (BIG PROBLEMS ON THIS ONE!!!!) After overweight landing, do you:

(A) Check pressure of tyres
Or
(D) Check temp of brakes

... I say (A), check tyre pressures. If your wheels have got too hot, the thermal plugs would have melted and deflated your tyres. This is supported by feedback from another school. However my school says (D)... are they wrong?

2. Can you use CO2 on paper fires? My school says yes... another school's notes say no.

3. Landing in heavy rain: keep speed same, or increase?

Help greatly appreciated!

[Send Clowns]

I would say D. If your tyres deflate, it's going to be blindingly obvious, a pressure check is not going to be needed. If your brakes are overheating (remember peak temperature is about 15 minutes after application) and you'r risking a fire or glazing or buckling of the discs then you want to know about it. Ops procedures is not my subject, and I sat it over 3 years ago, but that's my best answer.

Royal Navy fire training always warned of the dangers of spreading fire by using CO2 on burning, loose papers. Not sure of the official line on this.

[peb]

2. Can you use CO2 on paper fires?
Yes you can at least for the exams

(BIG PROBLEMS ON THIS ONE!!!!) After overweight landing, do you:
Check temperature of the brakes

3. Landing in heavy rain: keep speed same, or increase?
Increase its approach speed, because the rain affects the lift by deteriorating the boundary layer.


I believe that they are all right


:ok:

[OneIn60rule]

Yes you can use the CO2 on paper fire. Since paper is a lot like wood anyways,that's what the JAA officially believe.
Another wierd case is that you have to use DRY powder to kill wheel fire, again something that the JAA believe.

In truth you'll see that people kill wheel fires with FOAM.

[NinjaBill]

squirting cold foam on boiling hot brake discs will cause them to rapidly contract, possibly shattering, and sending bits of very hot metal flying.

Powder however, will put the fire out and cause the discs to get a bit dusty.

NB

[Burger Thing]

Just discovered this thread... After an overweight landing you definately have to check the Brake Temperatures. Your approach speed will be very high. The tyres can take the punsh, don't worry, but the brake have to absorb the whole deccelaration.

As for the approach speed in heavy rain... In no Boeing Manual whatsoever there is a statement that you have to increase your speed in heavy rain. Normally heavy rains comes with turbulance, and for the turbulance or wind you increase the speed. But also heavy rain comes with a wet (or even worse), flooded runway. You certainly don't want to land with excessive speed in these kind conditions.

But then again, we are talking about JAA, and they want accademic textbook answers. Probably by some CAA pencil warrior who never so an aircraft from inside.

Good luck with your exams. :ok: You will do fine!

[Alex Whittingham]

There is no JAA reference for fire extinguishers and the CAA examiners have become so frustrated with appeals that they have issued an unofficial crib sheet. They will make sure the exams, in the UK at least, comply with this (http://www.bristol.gs/download_files/FIRE.pdf) pending an official word from the JAA.

The answer to the 'heavy rain' question is the aircraft should increase its approach speed, because the rain affects the lift by 'deteriorating' the boundary layer and also, although its not stated in the answer, increases the aircraft weight and the drag. This technique is not universally adopted, as noted by the Burger Thing.

After an overweight landing I would check the brake temperatures.

[fat and retarded]

Asking the question of a qualified airport fireman, I was informed that the usual method for extinguishing wheel/brake fires was to mist the offending units with a FINE water spray.
I also believe that there is more than one difference of opinion with regard to types of fire and methods of extinguishing same between the JAA and those promulgated by the fire authorities in the UK. i.e. propane and magnesium fires for instance.

[scroggs]

This neatly brings out the point that you are studying to pass an exam, not to gain knowlege that will be useful in later years!

Fire handling is an evolving subject, constantly changing with new technology and techniques; it is quite understandable that a fixed syllabus will fall behind the real world. You don't want to go asking firemen what happens in the real fire, that will just confuse you!

Increasing approach speed in heavy rain is almost never done for real. However, heavy rain in UK is quite a different matter from heavy rain in the tropics - where if you're voluntarily carrying out an approach in heavy rain you deserve all that's coming to you. Burger Thing is quite right that under most circumstances, you will be more concerned about runway performance; there will be sufficient buffer in normal approach speeds to counter the deleterious effects of rain. Of course, if you're in an Airbus, the aeroplane's probably thought of it all already!

After an overweight landing, your first thought should be brake temperatures. Just as after a reject, you need to know whether you are about to suffer a brake fire (bad news - especially in wheels under full fuel tanks!), and whether or not it's safe to clear the runway (overtemped brakes are difficult to control, and may either lock on or fade altogether). You will have, in most modern airliners, brake temperature and tyre pressures displayed in the flight deck. In extremis, even without a fire, you can weld the brakes up (if they're not carbon), blow the fuse plugs in the tyres and end up with 16 flats on your 747. Best you're stopped when this happens!

Scroggs